THE TOP 40 X-CHARACTERS OF ALL TIME, PART 3: #20-11

[Al Harahap]

<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/harahap/top40xc1.gif" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>The Top 40 X-Characters of All Time, part 2: #20-11
Compiled and edited by Jennifer de Vries and Al Harahap

If there's one aspect of the X-Men fans are passionate about, it's the characters. We all have attachments to these characters, whether they're ones we respect or ones who are simply our favourites. They are constructs -- mere words and pictures on a comic page. Yet many times we forget, and allow them access into our lives and emotions. Throughout the years, grown men have admitted crying to moving deaths, the most calm and collected fan can explode when something disagreeable happens to his/her favourites, and who hasn't witnessed heated debates over the better characters or fighters? So how dare we compile such "final" lists? It wasn't easy -- let me tell you -- much blood, sweat, and tears were involved. In honour of the X-Men's 40th anniversary, around twenty ComiX-Fan staff members have compiled, giving equal weight to the criteria of: originality, popularity, iconability, and impact, to bring you... the Top 40 X-Characters of All Time.

From our previous installments, Part 1, #40-31 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21618):
#40: Longshot
#39: Magik (Illyana Rasputin)
#38: Forge
#37: Legion (David Haller)
#36: Deadpool (Wade Wilson)
#35: Destiny (Irene Adler)
#34: Sebastian Shaw
#33: Polaris (Lorna Dane)
#32: Madelyne Pryor
#31: Moira MacTaggert

And Part 2, #30-21 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/editpost.php?s=&action=editpost&postid=614241):
#30: Senator Robert Kelly
#29: Jubilee (Jubilation Lee)
#28: Cannonball (Samuel Guthrie)
#27: Banshee (Sean Cassidy)
#26: Lucas Bishop
#25: Psylocke (Elisabeth Braddock)
#24: Juggernaut (Cain Marko)
#23: Cable (Nathan Christopher Summers)
#22: Northstar (Jean-Paul Beaubier)
#21: Emma Frost

And this week, we present to you #20-11:

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#20: SABRETOOTH (VICTOR CREED)
Created by: Chris Claremont & John Byrne

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Sabretooth.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Victor Creed is a mutant who has been around for a long time -- possibly since the 1800s. He's equipped with enhanced senses (sight, hearing, smell, and taste), razor sharp claws, and a healing factor which attributes to his long life. In addition, thanks to the revamped Weapon X program, Creed is now in possession of an adamantium skeleton. Not a great deal is known about Creed's origins. However, he was apparently psychologically abused by his father, sequestered in a dark basement, and beaten frequently. In the mid 1960s he was an operative of the CIA, where he was given the code name Sabretooth, as part of a covert black ops unit called Team X along with the yet-to-be X-Man, Wolverine. He was then later abducted into the original Weapon X program, along with his Team X cohorts, in a failed attempt to create a group of superpowered sleeper agents. Since then, although primarily a loner, Creed has joined with several subversive organizations including the Brotherhood of Mutants, the Marauders, X-Factor, and more recently, the reconstituted Weapon X program.

Why: For every hero or anti-hero, there needs to be an antagonist to offset him/her. And that's what Sabretooth is for Wolverine. Many a classic battle has happened between the two, some of epic proportions. Sabretooth hates Wolverine with extreme prejudice and won't hesitate to kick Wolverine when he's down. Literally. What makes Creed so dangerous and a force to be reckoned with in the X-Universe is that he is a psychotic killer and an unpredictable one at that. He kills and maims without impunity for the sake of enjoyment, and anyone can fall victim to him at a whim: men, women, children, friends, lovers, pets -- no one is safe. Also, as a result of a tryst with the mutant shape-shifter Mystique, Sabretooth produced Graydon Creed, the founder of the F.o.H. (Friends of Humanity) -- a grassroots anti-mutant organization that has been the bane of mutant existence. In addition, Sabretooth was instrumental in one of the greatest tragedies to befall mutantkind: the Morlock Massacre. He was at the head of Sinister's Marauders, leading the slaughter throughout the underground tunnels of New York. But Sabretooth is not merely a frontline savage; he proves to be a big threat to "the dream" when he crushed Professor Xavier's belief in his redemption -- a mistake that almost cost the X-Man Psylocke her life. Sabretooth is the ultimate killing machine and consummate predator and will no doubt continue to be a factor in the X-Universe.

Entry by T. Gray

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#19: ARCHANGEL (WARREN WORTHINGTON III)
Created by: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Archangel.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Some may say Warren Worthington III was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and they would be right. Heir to a family fortune through Worthington Enterprises, Warren should have lived a life free from all hassle, but when two large feathered wings sprouted from his back while attending private school, things were obviously never going to be easy for him ever again. As the high-flying Angel, Warren was one of the original class of X-Men. After a horrific battle with the villainous Marauders, however, his natural wings were amputated. It was then that the ancient mutant Apocalypse offered him a chance to regain his power of flight in exchange for his loyalty as the Horseman of Apocalypse known as Death. Warren regretably accepted and was endowed with razor-sharp, retractable metal wings, and bleached blue skin. He eventually broke free of Apocalypse's control, and rejoined his teammates as Archangel. Years passed and the metal wings surprisingly molted to show that he had, in fact, regrown his original feathered wings underneath them. Even more recently, his blue-hued complexion was regressed to its original caucasion state when his secondary mutation manifested itself -- the power to heal his own wounds and those of others who shared his bloodtype through a transfusion of blood.


Why: Over the years, many have questioned just what the hell has kept Archangel living this long. For the most part, his only mutation is a pair of large feathered wings. What good are they when pitted against mutants who can fire blasts of intense energy or control the very iron in his blood? Well, the simple answer is that they honestly can't. And it's this disadvantage that makes Warren a surprisingly real character. Despite not having offensive powers, Warren survives. He puts himself in harm's way constantly with only his heart to see him through it. In the late 80s, we even saw another aspect of Warren appear. With the offensive nature of his razor-sharp metal wings, Warren was a survivor of a different sort. Physically, he now had the weapons to defend himself, but his true test was surviving the dark side within. Eventually, that form went away, returning the character to his roots with the reappearance of the feathered wings. And with a healing factor in his blood that can heal both himself and select others, he can further himself from regular hero to savior. Now, he is a true angel.

Entry by Ryan Scott

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#18: HAVOK (ALEX SUMMERS)
Created by: Arnold Drake & Barry Windsor-Smith

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Havok.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: The younger brother of Scott Summers (a.k.a. Cyclops), Alex was seemingly orphaned after a plane crash took away their parents, and Alex was soon adopted and separated from his big brother for years. Alex's latent powers surfaced under great stress and he proved incapable of controlling them. Eventually, Alex joined the X-Men, but left with his then-girlfriend Polaris as neither of them wished to lead a life as a superhero. Their happy ending was not to last, however, as Havok eventually rejoined the X-Men, this time facing his love Polaris as a member of the Marauders. Later, he accepted an offer to lead the Government-sanctioned X-Factor. In a freak explosion, Havok was seemingly killed, but in actuality shunted into an alternate universe. In this reality, Havok once again seemingly died, but was left floating in a Limbo-like void from which he was saved by Carter Ghazikhanian. Now with a Cable-esque scar to call his very own, Alex has rejoined the X-Men once more. He later planned to marry Polaris, but then realised he was in love with Carter's mother, Annie, the nurse who had cared for him during his coma, and called off the wedding, only to be hunted down and almost killed by Polaris. Alex and Annie have since begun a romantic relationship.

Why: Alex embodies the phrase "inferiority complex." He is the perennial younger brother who must live up to what his older brother has achieved. And as the younger brother of Scott Summers, it's quite the burden for Alex once he rolled into the world of X. Or rather, when he rolled into his brother’s shadow (and boy does Scott ever have a large shadow). Like so many younger brothers, everything he did would be compared to what his brother did -- though more so by himself than others. Scott was the essential X-Man, the leader, the eternal boyscout. The things Cyclops had done didn’t seem to be goals; they were standards that Alex just didn’t compare to. In this regard, Alex represents an X-Man's awe, inferiority, and resentment, all rolled into one towards the legacy veteran X-Men had paved. And if all that weren't enough, Alex also had to deal with his powers, which were too much for a single body to properly control. When Alex returned to the X-Men though, he made his own little spot in comicdom. Besides gaining control over his awesome powers, Alex reached the standards set up for him. He ended up leading X-Factor and later the Brotherhood. He stepped out of his brother’s shadow and proved he was every bit the man his brother is. Most importantly, he proved it to himself.

Entry by Jennifer de Vries & Al Harahap

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#17: BOLIVAR TRASK & THE SENTINELS
Created by: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Trask.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a><img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Sentinel.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: The Sentinels began as a freakish gleam in the eye of one Bolivar Trask, who was extremely aware of the mutant threat thanks to the X-gene present in his children, Larry and Tanya. His fear took the shape of giant purple robots programmed to eliminate all mutants, but some of us are afraid of clowns, and so I suppose we shouldn't judge. Since that first Sentinel program, the machines have been consistently bettered and made more dangerous, to mutants and humans alike. Some of these changes were simply weaponry redesigns, such as the addition of steel coils and sleeping gas for abduction, while others were merely cosmetic. One group of Sentinels decided that all humanity possessed mutation and warranted extermination, while others came to the conclusion that only through ruling mankind could they save mankind. Bastion's Prime Sentinels were human beings modified into cyborg sleeper agents, ready to strike at any moment. And the most recent incarnation of the Sentinels proved itself adaptable anywhere, creating a new central unit -- the Master Mold -- in the center of a jungle, churning out new Sentinels composed of spare parts and nanotechnology, mimicking the evolutionary process that resulted in the mutants they were designed to destroy.

Why: I’m not going to be subtle, because it’s just too important; Bolivar Trask is a four-color Hitler. He determined exactly what in the human race he would not stand for, and then he vowed to eradicate it, no matter the cost. His inventions, years and years later, are still perpetrating genocide without reprisal. Trask’s actions are inexcusable, and any justice would find him on a list of the world’s worst mass murderers and suffering in the Haag. But I wouldn’t deign to give Trask the recognition of this list by himself; it is the Sentinels’ dark place in the X-Men mythos that evokes terror in the mutants of the Marvel Universe. But more than that, the Sentinels should scare us all -- representations of the ultimate bogeymen, soulless and bent on killing. As the X-Men evolve, so do the machines, relentlessly coming after this innocent group simply because it was decided that they shouldn’t exist. Days of Future Past, one of the most chilling looks into the future of the X-Men, holds Sentinels responsible for the enslavement of the world. Robots gone mad, turning against creators and victims alike; it resonates because deep down, we all fear the Sentinels. If the world turns on you, the Sentinels come to your door. If you’re a bad little boy, the Sentinels will find you. And they will, trust me, because that’s what they’re for.

Entry by Dave Harris

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#16: GAMBIT (REMY LEBEAU)
Created by: Chris Claremont & Jim Lee

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Gambit.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Remy LeBeau has the ability to change an object's potential energy into kinetic energy with explosive results. The adoptive son of former New Orleans Thieve's Guild head, Jean-Luc LeBeau, Gambit was forced to marry Bella Donna Boudreaux in an arrangement to keep the peace between the Thieves Guild and its rival faction, the Assassins Guild. However, Bella Donna's brother objected to the union and challenged Gambit to a duel which resulted in his death and forced Remy to flee in order to prevent a war from erupting between the two guilds. He wandered the world at that point, plying his trade as a master thief, and eventually met up with the likes of Sinister and Storm, the latter who petitioned his membership into the X-Men after coming to her aid. Gambit then fell in love with his teammate, the saucy southern bell, Rogue. They've had a rocky relationship at best, facing many hardships and obstacles along the way (including the revelation of Remy's involvement in the Mutant Massacre), and have been on and off like hot and cold running water. But despite the setbacks, one thing has always remained constant, Gambit's heart belongs to Rogue.

Why: Gambit is a character you either love or hate purely because of his nature. He's a thief, leader, pretty boy, card shark, lady's man, gambler, smartass, charmer, scoundrel, just to name a few. As a thief and member of the renowned Thieves Guild, he skirts on the outside of the law. As an X-Man, he's a hero, putting his life on the line time and again to save the world. He's a man with secrets, which adds to his air of mystery and with his slick Cajun accent can charm the pants off nearly any woman. And although there may be no honor among thieves, Gambit is a thief with honor and some sense of morality. He's not always proud of the things he has done, such as his unwitting involvement in one of the greatest tragedies in mutant history -- the Morlock Massacre. He recruited and trained the Marauders responsible, and once he realized what was happening, attempted to stop the slaughter without regard for his own life, nearly being gutted by Sabretooth in the process. Despite his faults and sordid past, even having had the X-Men turn their backs on him briefly because of it, Gambit has a valiant heart and will always be there to help out when the chips are down.

Entry by T. Gray

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#15: MISTER SINISTER (NATHANIEL ESSEX)
Created by: Chris Claremont & Marc Silvestri

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Sinister.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Nathaniel Essex lived in the 1800s around the time of Charles Darwin. Like Darwin, Essex had a passion for evolution. His postulations and experiments were seen as even more controversial than Darwin's. After finding out that Essex had been conducting experiments on their dead son, his pregnant wif Rebecca estranged herself from her husband, who in his own way had done just that by losing himself in his studies. Around the same time, Apocalypse became interested in Essex's research, and asked Essex to join him with the promise of his heart's desire. Just before Rebecca and baby would die, Essex plead to his wife that he loved her and would leave his research behind, she denied him, and her dying words labeled him to be "sinister." With his love dead and believing himself to be a monster, he gave himself to Apocalypse, dubbing himself with his wife's final words. Mister Sinister was born. Apocalypse purged him of any moral compunctions and gave him grand new powers. It was during this time that he ran across Scott Summers and Jean Grey who were brought to that time era, and so began his interest in the Summers gene pool. Over the years, Sinister has schemed, plotted and committed numerous atrocities against man and mutantkind to further his agendas. What has remained constant, however, is his ever destructive hand in the X-Men's family and affairs.

Why: Mister Sinister... What is the appeal of this man? Is it because he has been after Scott Summers even before Scott was placed in his orphanage and caused the man a great amount of grief? Is it because he put together one of the deadliest groups of people (the Marauders) in x-history? Is it because he tricked Gambit into allowing the Massacre to occur? Is it because he created Madelyne Pryor and thus caused all of the ramifications that have branched from that act? Is it because he was the architect behind Cable's purpose of destroying Apocalypse? Is it because he caused all mutants to lose their powers across the world? Is it because he seems very powerful, yet you have no idea what his powers are? Is it because he is really good at creating havoc of the highest order from behind the scenes, but can kick some major butt when confronted (anyone remember when Bishop put a hole through Sinister's face, and it didn't even phase him)? Is it because he is highly intelligent and is very cold and methodical when undertaking a task? Is it because he has remained such an enigma for nearly 17 years? It's because whenever he shows up, you know he means nothing but trouble, but cannot help enjoying his evil ways.

Entry by Tan K.

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#14: COLOSSUS (PIOTR NIKOLAEVITCH RASPUTIN)
Created by: Len Wein & Dave Cockrum

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Colossus.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Piotr Rasputin lived a simple life with his family on a Siberian farm until Professor X recruited him and his mutant ability to transform his body into organic steel into the new X-Men. He looked with wonder on the new worlds he saw, but his wide-eyed innocence ended the day he was forced to kill the evil mutant Proteus… and again with the Marauder Riptide, a fight that left him paralyzed in his armored state. Upon recovery, he was pivotal in defeating the Adversary and gave his life (only to be resurrected) with the team to mend reality. After a short break from the team (and his own personality as artist Peter Nicholas), Piotr’s life was soon rife with tragedy. He found his brother, only to lose him to madness. His parents were murdered and his little sister Illyana contracted the Legacy Virus, becoming one of its first victims. Filled with grief, he turned his back on Xavier and joined forces with Magneto but soon realized his error. Too ashamed to return to the X-Men, he joined Excalibur. When that team disbanded, he rejoined the X-Men. However, when Beast developed a cure to the Legacy Virus that would require the sacrifice of one mutant life, Colossus’ feelings of loss and guilt over the death of Illyana drove him to give his own life to end the suffering the plague had caused. He died as he had lived, a reluctant hero.

Why: Colossus is both a pillar of strength and a pit of weakness. Molded in the form of the great tragic heroes, he stands for what he believes is right, yet finds himself constantly struggling with doubts over those beliefs. At heart, he was a simple farm boy whose heart belonged to the fields he grew up in. And while his conscience (and communist upbringing) told him that such power as his should be used for the good of the people, it took him a long time to feel that he was not abandoning or betraying his beloved country. In the 1970s, with the Cold War still on, it was a controversial move to feature a Soviet-born hero, especially one still so loyal to his motherland. His bravery in action was countered by his cowardice in relationships (such as his ill-fated relationship with Kitty Pryde). His purity of heart and the nobility of his ideals was constantly challenged by the evils of the world he had to combat everyday. He left Xavier for Magneto, and left Magneto to find he had no place to go. The death of his family, especially his precious snowflake Illyana, left him disillusioned. Stripped of everything he valued, Piotr had to ask himself the question of another tragic hero: “To be or not to be?” And he was left with the same answer: “The readiness is all.” He chose not to be, so that others could be. Good night, sweet tovarisch, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest…

Entry by Jordan T. Maxwell

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#13: BEAST (HENRY MCCOY)
Created by: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Beast.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Henry McCoy began as one of the original five X-Men. His natural mutations of enhanced strength, agility, endurance, and dexterity (as well as oversized feet and hands), combined with his own intelligence, made him an invaluable asset to the team. In time, he left the X-Men to pursue a career in science. The now Dr. McCoy began experimenting with mutation… experiments that caused him to mutate further. His natural gifts increased, accompanied by a coat of fur, claws, enhanced eyesight and an apelike appearance. After stints with the Avengers, Defenders, and X-Factor, he rejoined his almamater, the X-Men. When the Legacy Virus began to spread, Hank was instrumental in the research and formulation of a cure. He then left the mansion with Storm’s rogue faction of X-Men, only to return following a near fatal injury. Shortly thereafter, Beast underwent a secondary mutation, becoming larger and more feline in appearance. He now spreads his time between his duties as a superhero and as one of the most popular teachers at Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters.

Why: The mind of Einstein, the soul of Keats, the tongue of Wilde, and the body of a Thundercat, Beast is an utterly engaging combination of physical prowess, intellectual brilliance, wit, charm, and most importantly, humor. He is the elder statesmen of the X-Men, a modern day Benjamin Franklin with his wry quips and sage wisdom, as likely to quote Karl Marx as the Marx Brothers, or let loose with a few zingers all his own. Like Franklin, he is at heart a romantic… passionate, cultured, and amorous. Unfortunately, he shares Franklin’s luck with women as well. His heart has been broken by more than a few, and like all geniuses, he is incredibly insecure. Even more so given his obvious physical abnormalities. Yet he hides his sensitivity behind a façade of good humor. He is fiercely loyal and committed to his friends, even going so far as to ignore Avengers protocol to assist the X-Men against Dark Phoenix during his time with the Earth's Mightiest Heroes. More than a superhero, more than a scientist, what makes Henry McCoy stand out is that he is a true friend.

Entry by Jordan T. Maxwell

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#12: SHADOWCAT (KATHERINE PRYDE)
Created by: Chris Claremont & John Byrne

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Shadowcat.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Katherine Pryde made her first appearance when she was just a 13 year-old Midwestern girl from Deerfield, Illinois, whose emerging mutant abilities made her the focus of recruitment by both the Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters and Emma Frost’s Massachusetts Academy. Instrumental in a rescue operation even before she actually joined the X-Men, Kitty proved herself invaluable to the team and agreed to join them despite her parents initial misgivings. She would briefly attend the Massachusetts Academy, much to her displeasure, before returning to Xavier’s. Kitty’s original codename was Sprite, later changed to Ariel, and she was known for her frequent costume changes -- some of which were honestly quite dreadful by today's fashion standards. She obtained her current codename Shadowcat after she joined Wolverine on a mission to Japan and was mentally possessed by the ronin Ogun. On a mission on the Brood home world, Kitty would meet up with a small dragon she called Lockheed, and the two would become inseparable. She would later become a founding member of Excalibur, when she and Nightcrawler recuperated from injuries in England, and were joined by Captain Britain, Megan, and Rachel Summers. Kitty also had a transitory turn as an operative for S.H.I.E.L.D. before coming back to the X-Men.

Why: This brilliant, outgoing, Jewish girl from the Midwest would become one of the most popular teens in the X-books. From her stoic heroism to her fiercely loyal nature, Kitty would transform the idea of the “new kid” in the X-Men by becoming one of the most dependable and externally sought-after members of Xavier’s extended family (note her employment by S.H.I.E.L.D.). Her mutant ability to become intangible (phasing her molecular structure) allows her to pass through solid matter. Combining that and her genius with computers, and she becomes the perfect covert operative. She has suffered many hardships from her parents' divorce, the break up of two serious relationships (one with fellow X-Man Colossus; the other with Pete Wisdom) to the deaths of her friends Doug Ramsey and Illyana Rasputin. Clearly, Kitty has gone through changes in her existence, but she has always maintained the essence of who she is: regardless of alterations in her life, she has tried to live a normal, uncluttered life, especially of late. How long that will last is anyone’s guess. But one sure bet is, regardless of circumstance, Shadowcat will always be the centered, down-to-earth girl who lands right-side-up no matter what the situation.

Entry by Dayna A.

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#11: ICEMAN (ROBERT DRAKE)
Created by: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby

<img src="http://anotherpilotdown.net/Jennifer/Top40XC/20_11/Iceman.jpg" border=0 align=left alt="Top 40 X-Characters"></a>Who: Robert “Bobby” Drake was the second member recruited into Professor Charles Xavier’s original five students, known as the X-Men. A joker from day one, Bobby has shown the potential for great power in his ability to manipulate subzero temperatures… but also a great aversion towards accessing that potential. After leaving Xavier’s, Bobby switched back and forth between the life of a superhero (as a member of the Champions and the Defenders) and that of a college student (eventually becoming a certified public accountant) before settling into the fold with the rest of his original Xavier classmates in X-Factor. Rejoining the X-Men, Bobby encountered several situations that forced him to realize just how much he had been squandering his potential… but before he could do much with this knowledge, his father was beaten by the lackeys of a mutant-hating politician and he left the team to care for him, returning occasionally when needed. His father recuperating and his control of his powers increasing, Bobby returned to the fold as a member of the newly formed “away team” of X-Men. It was during one of these adventures that Bobby’s secondary mutation was triggered… apparently becoming a being of pure ice. The full manifestation of this change is yet to be seen.

Why: Despite being one of the original five X-Men, Iceman is eternally the kid brother of the team -- a slacker with incredible potential for power that he both yearns for and shies away from. On the surface, his appeal is his sense of humor. Iceman’s comedic talents can bring levity to both the melodrama of the mansion and the heated action of the battlefield … but just beneath that is a character of great depth, complexity, insecurity, sadness, and anger. His inability to develop his powers fully is a metaphor for his life… he could be an amazing person, but he’s afraid as well and so lashes out, withdraws or blows it off with a joke. Raised in a strict household, Bobby plays both rebel and dutiful son, wanting to break free yet longing for approval (how else do you explain the original joker of the mutant set on becoming an accountant?). His heart has been broken time and again, yet despite his frosty façade, he is still more than willing to give it away… because he knows he could be good for somebody. And deep down he knows he could be good for himself. Even more than the jokes, there lies his greatest appeal. He’s not the ideal… he is the untapped potential of that ideal. And we are drawn to him either because we relate or because we long to see the day he fulfills that potential.

Entry by Jordan T. Maxwell

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Be sure to check back next week for part 4, #10-1! For more special articles, features, and columns celebrating the 40th Anniversaries of the Avengers and X-Men, click here! (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21464).

[Zachary J. Morrison]

Good list once again.

[Michael Fisch]

Iceman at #11? I was sure that Archangel ranked above him, given Warren's had about 10 times the amount of character development that Bobby's had. Interesting list, nonetheless...I'm surprised Trask made it. I can't believe that Colossus didn't make the top 10. Here's my prediction for the top 10:

10. Apocalypse
9. Mystique
8. Rogue
7. Nightcrawller
6. Storm
5. Jean Grey
4. Magneto
3. Cyclops
2. Wolverine
1. Professor X

This is how I think the list will end up...but I personally feel that Jean should be #1, Cyke #5, and Prof. #3. Just my feelings, tho.

[GuyX]

Thats a damn good predection Lockheed for the top ten...my list is the exact same except i'd flip logan's and scott's places.

And good work on 20-11 guys...they were exactly what I thought they would be with the exception of Trask and the Sentinels. I also had Collossus and Rouge (who's def in top ten now) switched in my mind.

[Youri Zoutman]

Yes!Gambit is #16!!:gambit:

[David Santee]

Kudos to Jordan for writing a great Colossus entry. While I may disagree with the ranking (darnit! he's #1!), that was some good writing!

[Blademaster]

Good list. There's not much you can really argue with, except that I think Gambit should be ahead of Sinister. (Actually I think he should be number one but that's besides the point :D)

Other than that, I'm looking forward to the Top 10.

[Patrick James]

Iceman's placement suits me just fine as he is my personal favorite X-Man.

And I too am a little surprised Colossus wasn't in the top 10, but he's had a rough decade in the way fo characterization, so it's not a total mystery, I suppose.

[doctorx]

Can someone fix the Gambit creation? He was created by Claremont and Jim Lee. (Although Jim Lee didn't actually draw him until later)

[Iceboy Ben]

Let the speculation begin...

My personal top ten (which, as always, is a combo of personal preference and importance to the franchise...and which will not occur because it includes some characters already listed and doesn't include at least one who will definitely make the top ten):

10. Apocalypse
9. Shadowcat
8. Jean Grey
7. Beast
6. Rogue
5. Cyclops
4. Nightcrawler
3. Wolverine
2. Professor X
1. Magneto

[Wheeze]

Here's my predictions for the Top 10 -


10) through 2) - doesn't matter
1) Wolverine
Why Wolverine? Why not, he's on every cover of every Marvel comic, so he must be the best!

I was hoping against all odds Multiple Man, Random, or Gateway would make the list, but it appears it's too late for them. Oh well, at least Longshot and Jubilee made it!

[harlekein]

A nice list once again. My predictions?
10) Professor X
09) Jean Grey
08) Storm
07) Rogue
06) ???
05) ???
04) ???
03) Wolverine
02) Cyclops
01) Nightcrawler

[doctorx]

Havok, Archangel, Beast, and Iceman are fairly un-unique imo compared to other characthers. I wouldn't have put them this high, or even on the list.

I'm surprised Colossus was so low. I thought he would be higher, but that's okay, because I don't really care for him too much.

I'm dissapointed at Shadowcat though. She should at least be in the top 10.

I'm pleasantly surprised that the Sentinels & Bolivar Trask were included. But I agree with having them on the list.

At least this list seems to certify that Danielle Moonstar won't be making in the list. Or maybe she's in the top 10?!?!? That would be even worse.

With the 10 Slots in no order, I can see....

Jean Grey
Cyclops
Professor X

Wolverine
Storm
Nightcrawler
Rogue

Magneto
Mystique

That's 9 names. But who will be the last one? I'm guessing Apocalypse, but a lot of people seem to hate him. But based on other options he seems to be the only one left.

I was thinking of maybe Daniell Moonstar, but then again, there's no way she would rank above Shadowcat (imo of what the people are thinking)

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by SmashOgre
Kudos to Jordan for writing a great Colossus entry. While I may disagree with the ranking (darnit! he's #1!), that was some good writing!

Finally, someone around here who appreciates my skills!

Smash is my new best friend. ;)


Originally posted by Arkangel4Psy
Iceman's placement suits me just fine as he is my personal favorite X-Man.

And I too am a little surprised Colossus wasn't in the top 10, but he's had a rough decade in the way fo characterization, so it's not a total mystery, I suppose.

Man...what is it about us thespians that loves Iceman so much? :D

Originally posted by doctorx
Can someone fix the Gambit creation? He was created by Claremont and Jim Lee. (Although Jim Lee didn't actually draw him until later)

Mentioned it to Al long before you came along, but thanks anyway. Just needed to verify the facts before editing. Now everything's clear and correct.

Journalistic integrity in the hizzie...boo yah! :cool:


Originally posted by doctorx
Havok, Archangel, Beast, and Iceman are fairly un-unique imo compared to other characthers. I wouldn't have put them this high, or even on the list.


Well, considering they helped start the dang franchise and are still around and incredibly popular forty years later, that alone earns them a spot. That and the fact that they kick ass. ;)

[ImpossibleM]

Yes, I agree, Trask and the Sentinels are a welcome addition & certainly critical to the evolution of the X books. Hmmm, I'd put the top six like this: Nightcrawler, Storm, Cyclops, Magneto, Xavier, Wolvie. Yeah, I know people might disparage Logan, but I guess I'd argue there's a reason why he's so popular ...

Some folks I think should've been on the list (anywhere): Doug Ramsey, Dani Moonstar, Sam Guthrie ... I guess that's a pretty obvious theme.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Um...check out last week's installment for one of my personal faves, Cannonball, placed squarely in the Top Forty Characters of all tiiiiiiiiiiime!

and hey, i nominated Dani...so no one get upset with me. ;)

[michael]

10. Apocalypse
9. Mystique
8. jean grey
7. shadowcat
6. Nightcrawller
5. Storm
4. prof x
3. Rogue
2. Magneto
1. Wolverine


not my fav....................but can see this list

[SattP]

For the most part I agree with the list so far and it's all a pretty interesting read. I just hope, even though it doesn't matter, that the top 10 have very long entries just because I find them interesting to read.

Being a Cyclops fan, I'm guessing he'll easily be in the top 5. I guess everyone can agree the top five will probably be Cyke, Magneto, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine for various different reasons.

The only character that I'm getting ready to feel will be rated too highly will be Rogue, but that's just my opinion.

[Suzene]

Originally posted by Al Harahap

Gambit is a character you either love or hate purely because of his nature.

Nah, one could also hate him because his very presence implies that someone possessed of that mangled partois, wearing pink kevlar, and still claiming to be a Cajun could exist south of the Mason-Dixon without be stripped naked, hog-tied, and tossed into an alligator-infested bayou on a weekly basis. But to each her own. ;)

It seems a well-balanced and thought-out list. Looking forward to next week!

Suzene

[Silverwolf]

Gambit and Sabes shoulda been higher. But then again, they have tough competition.

Unlucky but dignified, McCoy is thirteenth!
Kitty Kat is number twelve. Yay!
Respect the Iceman!

Xavier should be number one... or Wolverine... or maybe Magneto. But NOT Cylcops or Storm, please!

[Cloak]

well, Rogue is Jen's favourite character after all ;)

I can't wait to read next week's entry, regardless of who gets put where.

[Agent Guile]

My thoughts:

10. ??
9. ??
8. ??
7. ??
6. Apocalypse
5. Jean Grey
4. Magneto
3. Cyclops
2. Xavier
1. Wolverine

[Big Guy]

I think it should have been
3 gambit
2 nightcrawler
1 wolverine

i have to disagree with some off them

[X-Corps(NZ)]

Originally posted by Iceboy Ben
Let the speculation begin...

My personal top ten (which, as always, is a combo of personal preference and importance to the franchise...and which will not occur because it includes some characters already listed and doesn't include at least one who will definitely make the top ten):

10. Apocalypse
9. Shadowcat
8. Jean Grey
7. Beast
6. Rogue
5. Cyclops
4. Nightcrawler
3. Wolverine
2. Professor X
1. Magneto

I agree :magneto: for president! Although the voices inside my head tell me that Jeannie might make it a little higher than you think.

[Jon Hancock]

so are there any surprises in the top 10?

i mean it should be pretty obvious what big names haven't gone yet

mags, prof, scott, jean, kurt, ororo, logan, rogue, mystique and poccy.

i hope storm's not there though. that'd be amazing

and where would strong guy and jamie rank?

[harlekein]

I'm thinking either Magneto or Nightcrawler is going to take the #1 spot. Just wondering what the rest of the list will be. Although we all know that Cypher has to be included in it.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by Big Guy
I think it should have been
3 gambit
2 nightcrawler
1 wolverine

i have to disagree with some off them

Well, since we haven't posted the top three yet, it's nice to see you preemptively disagreeing with it. :p

[Jennifer de Vries]

Originally posted by halo
well, Rogue is Jen's favourite character after all ;)

I can't wait to read next week's entry, regardless of who gets put where.

True, Rogue is my favourite character (damn, good memory there boy:p), but this isn't just about who we like, it's so many factors that it makes the entire list hard to explain. Though I have to admit that my liking or disliking of certain characters did creep in while I was listing my personal 40. ;)

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell
Well, since we haven't posted the top three yet, it's nice to see you preemptively disagreeing with it. :p

I think he did so because Gambit, his number three, was at sixteen, thus not making it into the top three. I don't see why Gambit would realistically make it into the top TEN myself, but eh...

[Cloak]

Originally posted by Wheeze
Here's my predictions for the Top 10 -


10) through 2) - doesn't matter
1) Wolverine
Why Wolverine? Why not, he's on every cover of every Marvel comic, so he must be the best!


hmm, too easy.

and Jen, come to think of it, I can entirely see why Regue should be in the top ten regardless of your love for her. btw, what was your personal top ten?

[Gat0r-ManX]

YAY for Colossus, Kitty, and Iceman!!

[Stormy]

I think lockheed's list of the top 10 is right on, although maybe not in that order. Nothing objectionable on the list here, but being in the top 20, all the choices are pretty obvious.

What, no explicit mention of Mutant X in the Havok entry? :p

[mikeyh99]

what other characters almost made the cut cause i would have loved seeing Cecilia Reyes,Sage,Pyro,Multiple Man,and a few others! But Jordan is doing an awesome on this list! glad to see rogue is in the top 10!!!!

[Martin Dudek]

Cecilia didn't make this list either... and I don't think she's been here long enough for you guys to put her in the top ten... so no Cecilia?

And I'm glad to see Bobby at 11 - that's about the right place for him, me thinks.

Though, IMO, he's #1! :)

[Radiate]

You know?I was just looking through all the lists and i gotta say....Chris Claremont is like the X-men GOD!HE's virtually created ALL these characters:p

RADIATE!

[Wolfman]

Not a bad list at all, It's kinda sad that three of the original five didn't even make it into the Top 10, Makes me really wonder who will be there, I can't wait till next week.

Wolfman

[Storm_1118]

This list was perfect. You all have done a wonderful job getting this list put together, writing the bios, etc. Great job and thanks.
Top 10:
10)Apocalypse
9)Mystique
8)Rogue
7)Nightcrawler
6)Magneto
5)Prof. X
4)Jean Grey
3)Storm
2)Wolverine
1)Cyclops

That's how I think it might boil down...I'd like Wolvie and Cyke to be switched though. And it's so hard having characters like Magneto, Xavier, Jean, and Storm right there in the middle. They should all be number 3!

[f4faith]

Overall I have generally agreed with all that have made the list but I have to say Iceman is way too high for a character that has done next to nothing memorable since he joined. Archangel at least had the loss of his wings and Apocalypse. Potential yes and should be in the top twenty but I would have put Sinister, Gambit and Archangel above him.

[FreakyFlyBry]

Interesting how some of the X-Men I thought would be top 10 didn't make it (like Beast, Archangel, and Colossus).

Here's my prediction for the top 10:

10. Mystique
9. Rogue
8. Apocalypse
7. Nightcrawller
6. Storm
5. Jean Grey
4. Cyclops
3. Magneto
2. Wolverine
1. Professor X

[Moonstar]

Thank God that you suggested Dani for the Top Ten, doctorx! I'm highly disappointed that she didn't make this list, and I think it's safe to assume that she didn't, because I think we've all got a good idea of who the Top Ten will be. I also agree that characters like Iceman, Archangel, and Havok just aren't extremely memorable or intriguing. Sure, they've been around for a long time, but...I don't think that makes a great character. Oh well, I understand that they've been major players in the X-saga and I expected to be in the Top Twenty. At any rate I'm looking forward to seeing just how the Ten turn out.

[Stormy]

I hope Prof X doesn't end up as #1. It'd be a little too obvious -- he started the whole X-men pantheon in the first place, so of course he's the most influential. It's nice to have him around, but I don't know anyone whose favorite character is Xavier. I'd rather see Jean, Storm, or Wolvie at the top.

I think Jean will be #1, on account of her central role in many of the biggest events in X-history, namely Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, down through Inferno, etc.

[Magic Rabbit]

Originally posted by mikeyh99
what other characters almost made the cut cause i would have loved seeing Cecilia Reyes,Sage,Pyro,Multiple Man,and a few others! But Jordan is doing an awesome on this list! glad to see rogue is in the top 10!!!!

Is she? ;) Do you think she made the list? ;)

And Jordan takes all the credit! :LOL:



Magic Rabbit

“They killed H.R. Puffinstuff!” – Joel

[euthymic]

Excellent list.

This is the best comic book BEST LIST I've read. And the "Best X-stories of all time" list ain't bad, either.

As long as Magneto is in the top 10, I thought to myself, I'm happy. And it looks like he is. Magnus is one of the greatest characters in all of comicdom, let alone Marvel and the X-Universe. If he is in the top 10, it will go a long way as protest against the SilverAge-ification of the Magster that Marvel seems bent on at present.

In any case, my vote for the top three characters would be:

3) Xavier
2) Magneto
1) Wolverine

I don't even like Wolvie, but I have to admit, he is the greatest X-character. His popularity is the most wide-spread, amongst female and male readers. I couldn't personally rank Xavier above Magneto, but then I'm a biased Magneto fan. I would imagine that Jean Grey could also be in the top three.

It's amazing to me how Bryan Singer and DeSantis captured the heart and soul of the X-Men on film, and one of the things they recognized was the incredible appeal of the three characters: Logan, Magneto, and Xavier. And that appeal has translated to film very well, and now millions of people who otherwise wouldn't have heard of these characters, are Wolverine fans, or Magneto fans. The same could be said of Jean, too.

Anyway, I'm just happy if Mags is in the top 10, which it seems he will be. Great job, everyone at X-Fan who is involved.

Oh, and I agree that Rogue, Nightcrawler, Storm belong in the top 10 as well.

[TracyNichols]

Now THAT'S a good list!

*sees Gambit there, and tries to resist the urge to say "I told you so!"*


Originally posted by FreakyFlyBry
Interesting how some of the X-Men I thought would be top 10 didn't make it (like Beast, Archangel, and Colossus).

Here's my prediction for the top 10:

10. Mystique
9. Rogue
8. Apocalypse
7. Nightcrawller
6. Storm
5. Jean Grey
4. Cyclops
3. Magneto
2. Wolverine
1. Professor X

Colossus has had a real crappy decade in terms of characterization, so I'm not surprised.

Angel, Beast, and Iceman may have been 3 of the originals and helped started the whole thing, and yes their popularity has endured for 40 years now, but you have to admit those three are a bit unspectacular in terms of a few areas, and not that original either in terms of powers.

I agree with your pics for the top 10, but I doubt they will be in that order. Heck, I don't know what order they will be in.

[ronaldmcdonald]

great list and getting better.
thought gambit would be in the top ten but 16 is okay.

[Jesse Baer]

Great list, why must you toy with us by making us wait a whole week for the next list :(

[HavokThePowerful]

Great list, but i think trask should be behind angel and havok.

[NicholasRogue]

Great list once again guys!

[cet]

Yay for Warren and Sinister! :D Glad they made it. Man, Kurt better be on the next list...he can't get looked over in all this.

[magiklover]

Originally posted by f4faith
Overall I have generally agreed with all that have made the list but I have to say Iceman is way too high for a character that has done next to nothing memorable since he joined. Archangel at least had the loss of his wings and Apocalypse. Potential yes and should be in the top twenty but I would have put Sinister, Gambit and Archangel above him.

Nothing memorable! Didn't you ever watch Spider-man and his Amazing friends!:LOL:

I am glad to see Bobby as the highest ranked of the "other 3" Original X-men. Scott and Jean would of course Rank higher because they embody the x-men more than anyone.

:iceman:

Great list in the 20-11. Nothing Unexpected and shocking(or aggrevating) and just about what i would have picked.

[Phoenix_Force]

Looks like we won't see Dazzler on this list. :sigh:

[Mutant_Genesis]

Great list so far! I don't think Trask should have been placed so high though. Warren, Alex, AND Peter should have all been closer to the top 10, but I'm happy that Bobby is in 11th. I'm disappointed that Remy AND Betsy weren't placed higher (top 10) and totally surprised that Kurt will place higher than Hank, but I'm still psyched to see the top 10!

We pretty much know (or think we know) who'll be in the top 10. This is how I hope it plays out:

10. Apocalypse
9. Mystique
8. Nightcrawler
7. Rogue
6. Professor X
5. Magneto
4. Jean Grey
3. Storm
2. Cyclops
1. Wolverine

I have a feeling that Mags is gonna be higher, but I still think the top 4 are the best X-characters ever!

[wolviechickie]

sabretooth!

I like this list better then any other...

so many great characters...

sabretooth!

sorry...I love him

[Huzzah]

Angel is way to high. He has like zero personality. I can see that he must have gotten higher on the list because of nostalgia. I cant argue that beast should be where he is, and iceman should be about where he is.

But eww... Angel.

I would have wanted Psylocke to be higher since i like the character, but considering all good stories involving her ended with Jim Lee leaving i can see why she would be low.

And even though Magneto has been really...really bastardized... he should be number one with wolverine right behind. Although in the Xmen world Xavier is very important, storywise he hasnt had much impact, and isnt really that well developed. And although Jean isnt anywhere as magnetic as say your Rogue or Storm, she should rank high because of Phoenix.

[Dragon]

very good list, though i agree i think Colossus should be higher up on it, Kitty fits nicely on the list too. Of course all thats matters is Wolverine is, will and BETTER be number 1

[Wolverine]

Fantastic List. I can't wait for the next one

[Alex Guillen]

good to have archangel be recognized but then again, he is in this loist with iceman and Beast, coincidence they're all 3 of the 5 founding x-men?
I would have liked to see Sabertooth a little higher, he's very cool.

[Logan Longshot LeBeau]

Ok, so it's down to Wolverine (MY #1), Prof X, Mags, Scott, Jean, Storm, Apoc, Crawler, Rogue, & Mysty? Didn't expect Poc to be so high. Raven either, but I think I understand the reasoning as to why they're on the top 10. They've been pretty essential & important to the whole X-Men lore over the years. Still, I woulda maybe put Beast &/or Colossus on da top 10 instead, but that's just me.
Top 6 will B Logan, Jean, Scott, Chuck, Mag, & Storm. Rogue & Kurt should be higher than Raven & Poc.5 & 6 will go to Jean & Storm, with Jean taking the higher spot, mainly cuz of the whole Phoenix/Inferno stuff as well as her relationship w/ Scott (& to a lesser degree Logan). Number 1 will be Charlie, cuz let's face it, if not for him, none of these guys or gals would be here. It's HIS dream they're fighting for, after all.
Logan, Mags, or Cyke could easily go #2, either one of them. Logan, cuz despite earning the ire of the internet geeks due to his overexposure, is THE MAN in the X-World. Most popular, most books, most merchandise, etc. Like him or not, he's a big reason why the revamp of the X-Men in the 70's caught on so quickly. Cyclops is the ultimate X-Man (no pun intended). It's Xavier's dream, but Scott is THE embodiment of that dream & the one who represents it and exemplifies it the best. Magneto is the flip side of the Xavier coin. If not for Magneto, Xavier wouldn't need to train a bunch of mutants to show the humans that not all mutants are evil. He's everything Xavier's dream stands against, yet there's so much more to him than simply being the evil arch-nemesis. Well I've rambled on long enough. Here's how I think the remaining top 10 will go:

10. Apocalypse (He was doing the evolution thing before Cassandra Nova and secondary mutations were thoughts in Grant Morrison's head)
9. Mystique (Always in the middle of some of the most memorable X-tales. Plus her connections to various X-Men characters)
8. Nightcrawler (The ultimate "true-believer")
7. Rogue (Her tragic past, dysfunctional family, & popular romance w/ Remy put her above her foster brother, Kurt IMO, even though I like Kurt better)
6. Storm (Second only to Scott in leadership, she's certainly one of Xavier's favorite & most-trusted students. You just can't make an X-Men book w/o Ororo on the roster.
5. Phoenix (One of the original students, THE original X-Woman, the Sue Storm to Cyclops' Reed Richars, and do I even have to mention the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix sagas???)
4. Cyclops (THE leader, THE boy scout, THE embodiment of the dream, THE X-Man. Nuff said, but wouldn't e surprised if he placed higher)
3. Wolverine (MY personal favorite X-Man, the main reason for any book's sales to increase, especially X-Men in the 70's, countless books starring & co-starring him, & if I had a doggie, I'd prob'ly name him Logan HAHHAHA)
2. Magneto (W/O Erik, there'd be no Charles nor a reason to fight for the dream, THE X-Men villain, as well as one of the most complex and interesting villains of all time. This is the guy Chuck sees in his nightmares)
1. Xavier (Well, WHAT THE HELL ELSE do you think the "X" in "X-Men" stands for??? HIS dream, HIS team, HIS "children")

Damn, dat was pretty long for a newbie, huh? HAHAHHA

MY top 10 favorite X-Men:
:wolvie: :gambit: :longshot: :iceman: :bamf: :morph: :sabes: :beast: :colossus: :deadpool: (for now, anyways)

[Allison Wright]

I have to agree with xavier and Magneto, thought I think Scott might beat out Wolverine for #3. It's a close call.

I would have put Gambit higher, (cuz I like him :) ) but I understand the reasoning. Beast and Iceman should have switched places, I think Beast has done more. Can't wait to see the top ten.

[Logan Longshot LeBeau]

Yeah, Anya, like I said, spot #2, could pretty much go to either Logan, Erik, or Scott. It's really anybody's call & all 3 are MORE than deserving of that spot.

[Sunspot]

Great list so far! I was surprised about the fact that this list contains 40 EXCELLENT characters (assuming that Magneto, Professor X, Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Apocalypse and Mystique will be in the top 10) and, yet, others EXCELLENT characters, like Multiple Man, Danielle Moonstar, Sage, Dazzler, Chamber, Blob, Pyro, Valerie Cooper and Strong Guy aren’t in the list. It only shows us how many great characters the X-Universe has!

[The Big Q]

Prof X no higher than #10. C'mon, anyone who spouts the line, "To me, my X-men" with a straight face doesn't deserve top spot! Ugh, that line just grates.

Logan & Kurt #1 & 2.

Any that's all I got to say!

[NateGrey65]

it's funny to see that the top 10 is so obvious to everyone-here i thought i was sooooo smart when i figured out ten big names that hadn't been listed yet-only to scroll down and see that EVERYONE else had already thought of them too. One odd omition though(not for the top 10 but just for somewhere on the list) I didn't see dazzler anywhere-i think she equally important if not more so that someone like longshot( who i never really cared for) hmmm just a small complaint anyways=maybe it should have been a top 50 list

oh and...Cyclops for Governor!!

[NicholasRogue]

In my opinion Kitty and Beast should be higher than Iceman but that's just me.

[Kevin Sutton]

This list wasn't as exciting because placement doesn't seem a big deal until you get to the top ten, and many of these people we all knew were gonig to be on the list asomehwere. The individual placement here I sort of agree with, but personally I would have moved some of the people on the last list onto this one and vise-versa.

[Kahio]

AM i the only one who thinks Cyclops is no where near top 5 material? Seriously, he is bland personified.

Really hoping ROgue gets top 5, but she won't, so why do i even bother hoping!?

Personally i'd like this:

Apocalypse
Mystique
Cyclops
Nightcrawler
Prof X
Wolverine
Mags
Storm/Jean/Rogue (cant decide on the order)

Cyclops is in no way a better character to read than any of the ones i placed above, i mean i know it is just my opinion, and it depends on the writers, but he jus always comes accross really forced and just bland... maybe it's just me.

Oh, and pls, not wolvie at #1...

k.

[NicholasRogue]

I just hope Rogue makes it above 8, if she does I'll be happy if not at least she got in the top 10

[Storm_1118]

Originally posted by NateGrey65
it's funny to see that the top 10 is so obvious to everyone-here i thought i was sooooo smart when i figured out ten big names that hadn't been listed yet-only to scroll down and see that EVERYONE else had already thought of them too. One odd omition though(not for the top 10 but just for somewhere on the list) I didn't see dazzler anywhere-i think she equally important if not more so that someone like longshot( who i never really cared for) hmmm just a small complaint anyways=maybe it should have been a top 50 list

oh and...Cyclops for Governor!!


I was surprised about Dazzler as well. I think she added a lot to the X-Mythos while she was an X-Man. It just seems that within the past ten years, people have forgot about him importance as an X-Woman and relegated her back to the disco diva that she was only for a short time. I think she should have been in the 30-40 list, but oh well huh? :)

[Kira Madison]

Great list. I'm very happy Kitty made it to the top 15! Yay for the original X-teen! :kitty:

My only fear is that Wolverine will unfortunatly end up as the #1 X-character....can you say "typical"? :bored:

[spinarakboi]

Well it is somewhat typical. He's one of the best characters (some might say) Sure he's over used and a lot of people are sick of him, but even more people love him and can't get enough of him. And even those who are sick of Wolverine, there is probably someone else they are even more sick of. *shrug* I like someone's list that but Magneto in front of Xavier, I hope that's how it turns out.

[doctorx]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell

Well, considering they helped start the dang franchise and are still around and incredibly popular forty years later, that alone earns them a spot. That and the fact that they kick ass. ;)

Ewww...not that argument again.... :p

[W. Molstad]

I agree - Colossus has had so many ups and downs but I think that as a character he really stands out... I'd imagine him being in the top ten over someone like Cyclops or Jean Grey... or maybe one of the blander characters in the top ten... But hey, he's dead I guess.

Also, I disagree with Iceman's placing - I've never seen his character be anything more than one sided most of the time, excluding Zero Tolerance. Gambit is a really interesting character to me, but I understand his placing, even behind Sinister - people haven't expanded Gambit as much as they could have...

Still, metal man :colossus: should have been in the top 10.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by doctorx


Ewww...not that argument again.... :p

Sorry if logic isn't your bag...:rolleyes:

[netenyahoo]

Iceman is personally my #1. I was hoping he would be in the top 10, but 11 is darn close. Great list!

[Tan K.]

I have never understood the infatuation with Bobby. He's never done a damn thing. He has made some good jokes, never gotten to his full potential, is now a whiner, etc.

Sure he is one of the original 5, but #11? Please.

Shadowcat was underrated here, but in all fairness she (and Colossus) have been out of circulation for a while, so it's fair.

[Mike Gonzalez]

This should have been the 1-10 list, if you put switch Iceman and Colossus and kick out Trask in favor of Cyclops.

I have a feeling the top ten are going to be Xavier, Jean, Lilandra, Storm, Cyclops, Magneto, Apocalypse, Rogue, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by Tan K.
I have never understood the infatuation with Bobby. He's never done a damn thing. He has made some good jokes, never gotten to his full potential, is now a whiner, etc.

Sure he is one of the original 5, but #11? Please.


Further proof, boys and girls, that you should never listen to Crazy Man Tan. ;)

[lavar78]

Screw you, Isabel! Ahem...

Well, I'm actually surprised Colossus got to #14. Of course, he'd easily be my #1 (since Cypher's ineligible or something ;)). Archangel got the raw deal in this portion -- lower than Havok, Sinister, Trask/Sentinels, and Iceman? Ouch. I would've thought the long-standing Angel/Wolverine feud would've helped him out a little. Gotta love a guy who went toe-to-toe with Wolverine (before he got the offensive-powered wings).

Now, lets see if I can predict the top 10:

10. Mystique
9. Apocalypse
8. Rogue
7. Nightcrawler
6. Storm
5. Magneto
4. Jean Grey
3. Prof. X
2. Cyclops
1. Wolverine

Taking the same 10, here's how I'd put them:

10. Apocalypse (really, he's not much of a character -- ironically, he never evolved much)
9. Prof. X (what can I say? I hate him. Even worse, he's not all that interesting.)
8. Rogue (I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer the Ms. Marvel aspect of Rogue)
7. Nightcrawler (a tad overrated, but genuinely enjoyable)
6. Mystique (amazing depth for a villain)
5. Cyclops (not a favorite, but still)
4. Wolverine (see Cyclops)
3. Storm (the consummate X-Man)
2. Jean Grey (the heart to Piotr's soul)
1. Magneto - looking back over 40 years, Magnus is easily the best character in X-history. What's interesting is that he's probably the most developed character (with apologies to Ororo).

[Tan K.]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell


Further proof, boys and girls, that you should never listen to Crazy Man Tan. ;)

BOBBY GOT SCREWED!!! He shoulda been in the top 10! Better?

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Eh...closer. ;)

[nekretaal]

I would have put Ka-zar on this list. (Somewhere in the top 40)

Don't Laugh.

It seems that every X-men story falls into one of three categories:
(1) Magneto: the X-men fight somebody who has a different view of a mutant's place in society (2) Sentinels: humans hate X-men and devise some means to counter their powers, and (3) Savange Land: the X-men adventure in a Bizarre world. (It's fair to put starjammers or Mojoverse, ect stories in this third category).

Once you acknowledge this fact, you realize how important characters like Ka-Zar or Corsair really are. One of them should have inched his way into the top 40.

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by nekretaal
I would have put Ka-zar on this list. (Somewhere in the top 40)

Don't Laugh.

It seems that every X-men story falls into one of three categories:
(1) Magneto: the X-men fight somebody who has a different view of a mutant's place in society (2) Sentinels: humans hate X-men and devise some means to counter their powers, and (3) Savange Land: the X-men adventure in a Bizarre world. (It's fair to put starjammers or Mojoverse, ect stories in this third category).

Once you acknowledge this fact, you realize how important characters like Ka-Zar or Corsair really are. One of them should have inched his way into the top 40.

Good point, but I would prefer Lilandra instead of Ka Zar.

[NateGrey65]

After reviewing this list I also have to say it is RIDICULOUS for Northstar to have placed as high as a he did considering he really is just a 4th rate Quicksilver (just look at the most recent Reeding into Things to see just how EXACTLY the same they are, I mean seriously they both even have TWIN SISTERS for Chrissakes) and if I remember correctly Chuck Austen even said that he only picked him because he couldnt get Quicksilver released from the Avengers in order to use him. IMO he at MOST deserves to be in the 40-30 listing or if I had MY way he'd be down in the honorary TOP 50 along with THUNDERBIRD, SUNFIRE, MIMIC, DAZZLER, CYPER and the rest of the barely X-MEN mostly cameo characters.
And also for those of you are already thinking it-no I dont care that he's gay I just think he is a boring, unoriginal character -and I challenge any of you X-MENoPhiles to name ONE interesting story where he was even INVOLVED, much less was FEATURED in!
I think he should be made into cannon fodder in the next major arc, maybe even just throw him into WEAPON X- that writer seems to love to off characters-maybe even his sister could do the deed.....
whoo-ok I"m done
CYCLOPS for GOVERNOR!

oh-i also forgot-did anyone else notice
how many people on the top 40 are dead

longshot, legion, magik, destiny, maddy, moira, sen kelly, psyloke, trask, and colossus 1 out of every 4 on this list is dead and if i'm not mistaken pretty much EVERYONE on this list has at least been dead or presumed dead once( that's such a ridiculous statistic, I'm all for characters staying dead now that I've seen just how many of them have actually died) I challenge anyone to name one character on this list who hasn't died-Oh Wait I can think of one... NORTHSTAR

oh and might i also mention that NORTHSTAR is apparently more important than ALL of these characters except of course for Colossus-good lord-how can you make him more important than Cable, Juggernaut, Psyloke, Jubilee, Cannonball, and BANSHEE?

Banshee has been around since the second X-Men and the Juggernaut was one of the 1st X-men villains and both of them have had better stories and even better real names than good ol' Jean-Luc( Wolverine may be canadian, but at least he's not FRENCH canadian)
Can't someone PLEASE go back and change his place to a lower level-it's only right

Cyclops for Governor!

Ok now I;m done (not really but i feel enough is enough)

[Mike Gonzalez]

People beat this down, but you DO need to realize that Northstar was gay in the early 80's, a time when people thought that all gay men had some sort of plague (AIDS). That's the reason why he had such an attitude issue. Now, if you look at Quicksilver, he had an attitude without explanation for 20 years. If anything, Quicksilver is basing himself off of Northstar, especially since the sibling problems that Quicksilver had, Northstar had all the way back in 1984. I like Quicksilver more, but you have to give Northstar some credit here for breaking down walls of prejudice.

Originally posted by NateGrey65
oh-i also forgot-did anyone else notice
how many people on the top 40 are dead

longshot, legion, magik, destiny, maddy, moira, sen kelly, psyloke, trask, and colossus 1 out of every 4 on this list is dead and if i'm not mistaken pretty much EVERYONE on this list has at least been dead or presumed dead once( that's such a ridiculous statistic, I'm all for characters staying dead now that I've seen just how many of them have actually died)

If all these guys would have stayed dead, do you think X-Men would be very exciting at all now? X-Men in general is interesting because of it's rich history. You can basically take any character and trace them for years... from when they were children even, in some cases. If you kill them all off and start over, then you lose connection to the cast. If Colossus being alive again is going to make for a better story in the long run, bring him back. If Pyro is going to improve the story in the long run, bring him back. If Psylocke is going to do it, bring her back. X-Men is very much a character based series, which shows when you can basically take any 5 characters and put them in any situation and people will read it. When you kill a fan favorite and don't replace him/her with another equally intruiging character, you weaken the series. Simple as that.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Well, Bebi...to be fair, Quicksilver was created nearly twenty years BEFORE Northstar...as were his powers, attitude and twin sister dynamic. So if anything, the only thing that Northstar didn't rip off of Quicksilver (heck, he's even got Pietro's hair color now) is his sexual preference. Everyone IS aware that Northstar's gay, right? I mean, that's been made perfectly clear so there's no doubts left in anyone's mind? He's a homosexual. He is attracted to other men. He cannot get married in the United States, but could in his native Canada. Everyone clear on it now? Because i feel like there's been some lingering doubts left by his recent appearances and the discussions surrounding him...

And hey...i only said i support his being on this list. I never said i supported his ranking. ;)

[Mike Gonzalez]

Yeah, but twenty years before, Quicksilver was just a land ripoff of Namor.

[xstormfan]

great list so far ,heres my top 10 (not predictions ,but my personal list)


10) Mystique

9) Rogue

8) Cyclops

7) Prof x

6) Phoenix

5) wolvie

4) shadowcat

3) nightcrawler

2) magneto

1) STORM:D :D :D

[Stormfan2]

Ok here is how it should end then Im going to say how I would have ended it

10. Apocalypse
9. Mystique
8. Nightcrawler
7. Rogue
6. Magneto
5. Professor X
4. Cyclops
3. Phoenix/Jean Grey
2. Storm
1. Wolverine

Now this is how I would end it if it was up to me

10. Apocalypse
9. Mystique
8. Rogue
7. Nightcrawler
6. Magneto
5. Professor X
4. Cyclops
3. Phoenix(Phoenix storyline)
2. Wolverine and
1. STORM

ok ok now I know why a lot of people going to wonder why Storm at first well for one the single character caused so much controversy back in the 70's. She was no Jean, or Sue Storm, she was a woman that could be just as tough as any of the guys. Her accomplishment goes far beyond the X-Universe,

Storm was the first super heroine to lead a super hero team and the one that broke down the stereo types that women had in comics not even Wonder Woman that was introduced in 1941 and Sue Storm in 1961 did that. So because of this outstanding accomplishment for women in comics plus her popularity plus being a leader of the number 1 super hero team all of that combined makes her number one. A comic site named her the number 3 most influential female character in comics right after Wonder Woman and Batgirl so I say thats enough to put her at number 1.

Another criteria is personality, Storm is one of the most compassionate X-men she is always there for everyone giving them support, she was there for Wolverine when he loss Mariko, was there for Gambit when Rogue left him in a coma she even was there when Phoenix wanted to save the Universe and Storm offered her essence to help her do it. She even took the shot for Rogue and was left powerless and even proved herself whithout her powers. That is why Tom Desanto calls her soul of the X-men.Then there is her Her name, her powers, her look everything just fits.

Wolverine would get the 1 spot if we were only looking at popularity. I would never argue about that one but while he is the most popular character he didnt impact the comic book world in the grand scale that Storm did because before him there was Superman, Batman, Spiderman and even Hulk, he was just a super liked character just like Gambit, he may have been the character Marvel chose to represent the X-men because it had to be a male character but the character that really made the book unique and different was Storm so she definately deserves the number 1 spot and anyone that says she is number 1 has just as much facts to prove their point as if it was Wolverine.

Stormfan

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by Bebi
Yeah, but twenty years before, Quicksilver was just a land ripoff of Namor.

:? Why? Because they're both arrogant? Kinda hard to make a case based on one character trait. Unless you want to try and make a case that Namor's just a water logged rip off of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff is just an aristocratic rip off of Shakespeare's Oberon and Oberon is just a fairied up rip off of Sophocles' Oedipus.

For the record...none of these people can run fast. ;)

[doctorx]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell


Sorry if logic isn't your bag...:rolleyes:

It is, but are you talking the logic of getting a spot based on being there from the start again? :rolleyes:

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by doctorx


It is, but are you talking the logic of getting a spot based on being there from the start again? :rolleyes:

I think forty years of proven longevity and popularity amongst the fan base and casual readers...a popularity that keeps the originals coming back to the team time and again no matter how often writers try to have them exit to usher in newer members...yeah, i'd say four decades of that justifies their presence here.

[doctorx]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell


I think forty years of proven longevity and popularity amongst the fan base and casual readers...a popularity that keeps the originals coming back to the team time and again no matter how often writers try to have them exit to usher in newer members...yeah, i'd say four decades of that justifies their presence here.

That may be your criteria, but I would view it more as in characther depth, uniquenes, and personality for a start, rather than just a numbers game or a popularity contest.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by doctorx


That may be your criteria, but I would view it more as in characther depth, uniquenes, and personality for a start, rather than just a numbers game or a popularity contest.

Ugh...how many times do we have to explain it? Each voter took MULTIPLE criteria into account. And apparently a HUGE number of us took these MULTIPLE criteria into account and came up with these three originals to be ranked so highly. What does that tell you? You might not like these characters, and that's your right. But apparently there's plenty of us who do. And it's not just based on longevity. You have to invert the argument for it to make sense. Not they're top characters because they've been around so long, but they've been around so long BECAUSE THEY'RE TOP CHARACTERS. personally, i've always found these three (and the remaining originals) to be utterly unique, defined, incredibly deep (both emotionally and psychologically) with personalities so iconic and rich that if the slightest thing is off in a writer's portrayal, long time fans can tell.

Also...if you want to know more about my PERSONAL reasons for why Iceman and Beast are this high, read the "why" section for each character. I wrote it, i stand by it and nowhere do i say that the reason they're top characters is because they're "old." That's just proof that they're great characters, not the cause.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell
Ugh...how many times do we have to explain it? Each voter took MULTIPLE criteria into account.

Which does not in the least mean that it still wasn't mostly personal. I've seen nothing in the write-ups as to how either Beast or Bobby (and I love them both and Beast is my favorite character) have done anything or been involved with anything in the X-Men that was defining or involved a major storyling or issue for the X-Men. I have to agree that I see this as they are originals (and yes I believe in many ways they have been kept around for all these years just because they are originals not because there are characters who have come later who had just as good a set of few stories and could have filled roles and aren't even on this list (Cece Reyes comes to mind). I'm a Hank fan but became one when he was an Avenger not an X-Man as I feel he's done little as an X-Man.

And apparently a HUGE number of us took these MULTIPLE criteria into account and came up with these three originals to be ranked so highly. What does that tell you?

Nothing. It's still a fairly small group if it's just Xfan. What does it tell you that quite a number of people responding all felt Iceman and Beast were too high? I find that just as valid an argument.

You might not like these characters, and that's your right. But apparently there's plenty of us who do.

But apparently there are also plenty who do have a problem with them being this high (and do like them) as well so one wonders why that never showed up in your group. It might be the type of people who would have the ability to work at Xfan, etc. I could say the same about Wizard and their reviews and choices. It might not be as reflective of what most fans would agree at all. I'm not saying the list is "wrong" as there is no such thing as "right" list in something this subjective but I do think people have every right and perfectly good arguements to disagree with it, and I still do.

And it's not just based on longevity. You have to invert the argument for it to make sense.

No you don't. The longevity is the agruement and it's valid. You assume they are still around mostly because they are liked. I agree that's part of it but how much is just Marvel rarely ever gets rid of the original characters? X-factor and Jean were brought to life again just to do that and that given the time they are now liked because they've had time to be accepted adn there is nothing specifically bad about them.

Not they're top characters because they've been around so long, but they've been around so long BECAUSE THEY'RE TOP CHARACTERS.

Why can't it be both? I do think it is a combination of the two because it wasn't like the original X-Men so catured the imagination of the readers that they survived at a booming time for comics without revamp.

Personally, i've always found these three (and the remaining originals) to be utterly unique, defined, incredibly deep (both emotionally and psychologically) with personalities so iconic and rich that if the slightest thing is off in a writer's portrayal, long time fans can tell.

I'm a very long time fan and utterly disagree. I find Archangel nothing like iconic and boring beyond belief and Bobby I love but he hasn't done a lick or hardly developed in 30 years.

Also...if you want to know more about my PERSONAL reasons for why Iceman and Beast are this high, read the &quot;why&quot; section for each character. I wrote it, i stand by it and nowhere do i say that the reason they're top characters is because they're &quot;old.&quot;

Of course not. No one would admit that anyway even though it does have to factor it. Just being around has some merit.

That's just proof that they're great characters, not the cause.

No it's not. As you note it is your personal opinion. I do love them. I love Beast but he is not iconic nor has he been that important to the X-Men or their conflict or mission in any redefining way. For all you put say Gambit down the list - his storyline nearly destroyed the team in my opinion as for the first time the team as a whole acted in a most judgemental and un-heroic fashion - as you sort of point out in the like or hate bit. I hated 350 but it's impact on readers opinions of the X-Men and their reaction was long spread and remembered - both good and bad and any X-Men fan fiction list will prove that point for good and bad. That alone should have ranked him higher than either Bobby or Hank. Juat as Sinister and the Massacre did in the first place. Both well deserved higher in my opinion just on impact to the overall X-Men over what was picked over just two originals even if they are hated.

[Mike Gonzalez]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell


:? Why? Because they're both arrogant? Kinda hard to make a case based on one character trait. Unless you want to try and make a case that Namor's just a water logged rip off of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff is just an aristocratic rip off of Shakespeare's Oberon and Oberon is just a fairied up rip off of Sophocles' Oedipus.

For the record...none of these people can run fast. ;)

Ridiculously arrogant, each with bizarre infatuations on other Marvel characters, the same sense of duty being more important than following emotions, and their similar use of the English language. Not only that, but even their physique in general. Both originally had "square" heads, angular eyebrows, and a ripped yet thin body.

[Jim Lemoine]

Isn't it amazing how everyone can have an opinion, and be totally convinced that they and they alone are absolutely right, and thus, by logical continuation, everybody else is absolutely wrong?

It's. A. List.

It's. An. Article. About. A. Comic. Book.

[harlekein]

I have to agree Jim. Its a LIST of characters. Does it state anywhere that it was supposed to satisfy you or that it was based on what everybody thought or should think? No, it was a list made by a couple of X-Fans, who they thought were top characters. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jim Lemoine]

Well, no actually, it was a list made by a BUNCH of COMIX-fans.

But it's just a list, is my point. It won't fix your hunchback or help your time pass or anything, to paraphrase a sponge.

[Stormfan2]

This list is definately not as easy as say picking the best X-men writer which at least most of us can agree is Chris Claremont, so in this case it is just a list and there is no right or wrong answer since few characters could very well claim the top spot.

Stormfan

[Stormfan2]

Originally posted by Stormy
I hope Prof X doesn't end up as #1. It'd be a little too obvious -- he started the whole X-men pantheon in the first place, so of course he's the most influential. It's nice to have him around, but I don't know anyone whose favorite character is Xavier. I'd rather see Jean, Storm, or Wolvie at the top.

I think Jean will be #1, on account of her central role in many of the biggest events in X-history, namely Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, down through Inferno, etc.


I agree with you if Wolverine, Storm or Jean made the top spot it would be justified even Professor X although he doesnt exactly have popularity to go with his importance and I think the winner should have a good balance of popularity, personality, and impact not only in the X-Universe as a whole but in the comic book world thats why to me Storm should be number 1 because while Jean with the Phoenix saga was great the whole Phoenix was not Jean cheapened the story. While Storm completely set the standard for female characters in comics not even Wonder Woman had done that before even though she began the genre. Storm is perhaps the most influencial character in this franchise because her impact on female characters would forever be in this industry as long as they are still around. Wolverine been on top would be fine too although while he gets the title for the most liked and has an interesting past thats all he is, he is the opposite of Professor X because he lacks the importance while Professor X lacks his Popularity. But still even if Storm doesnt make it ontop she should be near the top.

Stormfan2

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
It won't fix your hunchback or help your time pass or anything, to paraphrase a sponge.

I'm pretty sure that time did pass while I read the list. ...and arguing helps time pass even more.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by SuperMutant


I'm pretty sure that time did pass while I read the list. ...and arguing helps time pass even more.

Furthermore, isn't the point of lists like this to encourage discussion?

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by f4faith


Which does not in the least mean that it still wasn't mostly personal. I've seen nothing in the write-ups as to how either Beast or Bobby (and I love them both and Beast is my favorite character) have done anything or been involved with anything in the X-Men that was defining or involved a major storyling or issue for the X-Men. I have to agree that I see this as they are originals (and yes I believe in many ways they have been kept around for all these years just because they are originals not because there are characters who have come later who had just as good a set of few stories and could have filled roles and aren't even on this list (Cece Reyes comes to mind). I'm a Hank fan but became one when he was an Avenger not an X-Man as I feel he's done little as an X-Man.

Well, the list isn't really so much about what they've DONE as who they ARE.


Originally posted by f4faith

Nothing. It's still a fairly small group if it's just Xfan. What does it tell you that quite a number of people responding all felt Iceman and Beast were too high? I find that just as valid an argument.

ComiX-Fan. It's four little letters. I know you can do it. ;) And i'm not saying that anyone is WRONG for not liking these characters or thinking they should rank so high. I'm just saying a lot of people put a lot of time and effort and thought into this list. It's not like we randomly picked forty characters and threw them "where ever." So phrases like "should/shouldn't be" or "deserves to be" really don't have a lot of merit, in my opinion.


Originally posted by f4faith

But apparently there are also plenty who do have a problem with them being this high (and do like them) as well so one wonders why that never showed up in your group. It might be the type of people who would have the ability to work at Xfan, etc. I could say the same about Wizard and their reviews and choices. It might not be as reflective of what most fans would agree at all. I'm not saying the list is &quot;wrong&quot; as there is no such thing as &quot;right&quot; list in something this subjective but I do think people have every right and perfectly good arguements to disagree with it, and I still do.

Of course people have the right to disagree, and i have the right to defend and stand by my argument. Respecting other's opinions doesn't mean abandoning my own. and i don't think there's a "type" or person who's on staff here. We're all incredibly diverse with wide ranging tastes. I like the works of Grant Morrison. Anthony L.'s a huge fan of Rob Liefeld. Jim digs the Avengers. Lia's a Freedom Force fan. Lauren reads Vertigo. Joel likes...um, Joel, what DO you like? :p


Originally posted by f4faith

No you don't. The longevity is the agruement and it's valid. You assume they are still around mostly because they are liked. I agree that's part of it but how much is just Marvel rarely ever gets rid of the original characters? X-factor and Jean were brought to life again just to do that and that given the time they are now liked because they've had time to be accepted adn there is nothing specifically bad about them.

Longevity is NOT the argument, it's proof of the argument. These are still rich and viable characters with well defined personalities. The fact that they've been around so long doesn't get them on this list. Heck, Mimic's been around for almost as long, and you don't see him here. Saying "they should be on the list because they've been around so long" is just as erroneous as saying "they're only on the list because they've been around so long."

Originally posted by f4faith

Why can't it be both? I do think it is a combination of the two because it wasn't like the original X-Men so catured the imagination of the readers that they survived at a booming time for comics without revamp.

And yet, when the new team came about, those characters didn't go into limbo. They STILL found a niche in the Marvel Universe. Whether as Avengers, Defenders or Champions...before coming home to the X-Men titles. just keeping them around because they're the originals is one thing, but when they can leave the team they founded and still be active characters that writers want to portray and readers want to interact with...well, that tells me there's something more to the character than just "we were one of the first five X-Men!"

Originally posted by f4faith

I'm a very long time fan and utterly disagree. I find Archangel nothing like iconic and boring beyond belief and Bobby I love but he hasn't done a lick or hardly developed in 30 years.

Your opinion. the fact is, in both appearance and personality, all of the originals have incredibly iconic elements to them.

Originally posted by f4faith

No it's not. As you note it is your personal opinion. I do love them. I love Beast but he is not iconic nor has he been that important to the X-Men or their conflict or mission in any redefining way. For all you put say Gambit down the list - his storyline nearly destroyed the team in my opinion as for the first time the team as a whole acted in a most judgemental and un-heroic fashion - as you sort of point out in the like or hate bit. I hated 350 but it's impact on readers opinions of the X-Men and their reaction was long spread and remembered - both good and bad and any X-Men fan fiction list will prove that point for good and bad. That alone should have ranked him higher than either Bobby or Hank. Juat as Sinister and the Massacre did in the first place. Both well deserved higher in my opinion just on impact to the overall X-Men over what was picked over just two originals even if they are hated.

Well, i don't read fan fictions...but frankly that little gem of a retcon never struck me as something that shook the X-Men to their core. "Hey, i unknowingly helped cause something that y'all got involved in and some of you got hurt by years before i even knew any of your names. Sorry." "TRAITOR!" just didn't ring true. Now, Beast's curing the Legacy Virus, becoming something of a celebrity spokesman for mutant rights...Iceman's humor tempering his anger, dealing with his torn feelings both about his family and about being an X-Man, struggling to deal with the fact that he's always slacked off or shied away from his potential...Warren's cocky playboy attitude being challenged by the darkness Apocalypse forced upon him, only to realize the darkness was and had always been his and the emotional healing he had to go through...those stories always engaged me a lot more than "oooh, Gambit's got ties to Sinister. He was supposed to be the X-Traitor. he's so mysterious." Not that the stories brought about by those elements weren't good. Gambit's quest for redemption while still maintaining some of his scoundrel ways have been really engaging. But i wouldn't say any moreso than what the originals have gone through. Again, the list is not about what they've DONE but who they ARE.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell
Well, the list isn't really so much about what they've DONE as who they ARE.

Uh I thought you said that multiple criteria were used and evaluated equally? The list includes "IMPACT" - which most certainly should that include what they have done or how they have impacted both the X-Men and the fans perception of the X-Men. You are actually verifying the view that it still more came down to which characters the reviewers liked over looking at the characters critically for all their merits not just who they are or aren't. Which was exactly my point. I felt this list doesn't seem to have done that though it implies it did in the opening.

And i'm not saying that anyone is WRONG for not liking these characters or thinking they should rank so high. I'm just saying a lot of people put a lot of time and effort and thought into this list. It's not like we randomly picked forty characters and threw them &quot;where ever.&quot; So phrases like &quot;should/shouldn't be&quot; or &quot;deserves to be&quot; really don't have a lot of merit, in my opinion.

It has nothing with not liking these characters - I do like them. And the comments have as much merit as this list in the first place. Do you assume that I or others didn't give it some thought too (or anyone else just because they were not with the group that made the choice) as to why one would place one character one place or another?

Of course people have the right to disagree, and i have the right to defend and stand by my argument. Respecting other's opinions doesn't mean abandoning my own.

No one asked you to but in stating that others can't say their list (who should or shouldn't be where) you imply we have no right to that opinion. This list is telling us who some at Comix-fan thinks should or shouldn't be in some position so why can't anyone say they don't agree and why and say who they think should or shouldn't? Just saying it does not mean anyone has to agree either.

Longevity is NOT the argument, it's proof of the argument.

But he and I say it is the part of the arguement. I do think it is a factor in the issue. I do think it had some affect on to why these characters were brought back when others who came later did not come back - just because these were the originals.

These are still rich and viable characters with well defined personalities. The fact that they've been around so long doesn't get them on this list. Heck, Mimic's been around for almost as long, and you don't see him here.

Mimic has not "been around" like these have. When was Mimic ever repeatedly brought or placed into other books over all these long years? He was not an original - and frankly had some merits of his own to be used but wasn't. Mimic actually points to my concern about originals being found spots until they finally become "iconic" partially by default.

Saying &quot;they should be on the list because they've been around so long&quot; is just as erroneous as saying &quot;they're only on the list because they've been around so long.&quot;

I agree they are not *just* on the list because they have been around so long. Though being around a long time and use in and of itself allows them more history to be developed, but I am saying that they might have placed so high to some because they have been around so long that by default they are considered *more* iconic just by age - than anything in their history beyond a personality some like may well justify.

And yet, when the new team came about, those characters didn't go into limbo. They STILL found a niche in the Marvel Universe. Whether as Avengers, Defenders or Champions...before coming home to the X-Men titles.

Which just hints to my point that they dump original characters into other places to keep them around and when they need to fill teams because Marvel does that. I wouldn't use "Champions" as a good example of any character's ability.

Your opinion. the fact is, in both appearance and personality, all of the originals have incredibly iconic elements to them.

As that is your opinion - which was my point. This seems to be more about personalities that the group liked than about what the characters have done or given way more weight - which darn well should be considered to me when talking about being "iconic". Jean is iconic to me as much because of Phoenix and how that story impacted the X-Men and the readers as her personality. I don't actually like Jean but the storyline alone makes her iconic more than her because she was - at least in the beginning - the least original X-Man. The same criteria should have been given some weight with the other characters as well.

Well, i don't read fan fictions...but frankly that little gem of a retcon never struck me as something that shook the X-Men to their core.

That not what I said. It had nothing to do with the retcon per se. I told you I hated the retcon too. But what it resulted in as you note, how it affected the X-Men - they abandoned one of their own who did nothing traitorous to them while with them, to death - so much for "family" and many fans felt the same. So it affected the fans, and Gambit's character issues himself were very important and something that very much has to do with that Impact which supposedly this list was suppose to take into account but doesn't seem to have. My point that Sinister's actions have impacted the X-Men and possibly the fans more than Bobby has. Which is I brought up my point about the fan fiction and 350 - it was how big and varied the reaction to the X-Men actions to the revelation of 350 affected the fans. There are literally hundreds of fan fics written specifically related to that one issue - more than the whole of fics I've read about certain characters on this list. If that's not Impact I don't know what is.

Now, Beast's curing the Legacy Virus, becoming something of a celebrity spokesman for mutant rights..

He was more a spokeman for mutant rights because he was an Avenger (which I agree is import and would put him over Bobby to me too) but how has curing Legacy really impacted anything? It was a dead issue before it was cured. And it certainly didn't change any perception of anything. I do think the issue could be used with Colossus.

Iceman's humor tempering his anger, dealing with his torn feelings both about his family and about being an X-Man, struggling to deal with the fact that he's always slacked off or shied away from his potential

Again though where is the impact from any of that on any major story or other X-Men's reactions or the fans (or as of yet)?

Again, the list is not about what they've DONE but who they ARE.

But again why isn't it? I thought that was one of the criteria. It certainly would have been in any poll about judging the characters on all their merits to me. Which is the point I was making. If you have say ten characters that are close in personality development, fan interest, etc as obviously a group like this would then the criteria of Impact should have had a place in the ranking - I don't see that in this list as impact of the character (ala like Gambit having a large female fan base - which can not be said of a lot of characters) or a major story involving them (the Morlock Masscre for Sinister) or how the fans reacted to what the X-Men did in a story (ala 350) seems to me might have been a limiting factor but it seems irrelevant here and even ignored since as note Bobby has the least Impact I can think of in any of these characters which is why I've been saying I don't think he's done or been involved in anything to rank him this high.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Oy...heavy sigh...again, i'm not trying to declare anyone wrong. But should i have to be silent when i disagree with someone else's opinion? Seems a bit hypocritical. I feel quite justified with Bobby, Warren and Hank's placement...heck, if it were my personal list, Bobby and Hank especially would be higher. And in the end, all i can give are my personal reasons for why i voted them where i voted them (which were in relatively different rankings). And longevity, for me, had little to do with it beyond proof that they're great characters.

As for "what they've done..." I think they've all been quite instrumental in their own ways in various stories. Hank cured the Legacy Virus. Bobby had to take on the Prime Sentinels with only a couple of newbies to back him up. Warren as Angel was a symbol of the level of horror in the Mutant Massacre, and was the emotional crux of the X-Factor issues of Fall of Mutants. But beyond their narrative actions, i think they have an emotional weight and impact other characters and relationships. A character's impact has to be more than what you'd put on their trading card to make them sound "kewl" to a sixth grader.

Look, again, i'm not trying to say i'm right and you're wrong or whatever. That would be ridiculous. What i AM Trying to say is that when twenty people, very well read and familiar with these stories and characters, get together and individually rank their choices for the top, and those choices are taken and mathematically calculated to determine an average place for ranking...diverse and subjective opinions, processed analytically...that it becomes just as ludicrous to say they "shouldn't" be in a particular place and only got that high for a completely superficial reason. So i feel the need to defend the process and the position and can only use my own personal reasonings. I'm not trying to subdue dissension...i'm just trying to make it more intelligent and respectful.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell
But should i have to be silent when i disagree with someone else's opinion?

You can like everyone else give your reasoning why you choose as you did or explain the process or other opinions notedand see if others then see it and agree (or in my case seemed to verify what I felt about the results). Some still don't and that does not make their opinion any less valid than a group opinion or make it any more valid either. It just is. I have no issue with the making of the list but I can disagree with it. Don't agree with the top ten placings either but that's already been pointed out by others.

What i AM Trying to say is that when twenty people, very well read and familiar with these stories and characters, get together and individually rank their choices for the top, and those choices are taken and mathematically calculated to determine an average place for ranking...diverse and subjective opinions, processed analytically...that it becomes just as ludicrous to say they &quot;shouldn't&quot; be in a particular place and only got that high for a completely superficial reason.

I'm a mathetician. Don't tell me because the process had an mathematical basis that made it more relevant because it added up very as you say subjective opinions that makes the opinions more valid (not to mention depending on how they were added up could have given more weight to either extremely high or low scores within the group). They are still opinions not matter how you come up with a system to add them together. All anyone else is doing is expressing their opinions too and can be just as well read. I think the list is fun because it doesn't mimic anyone elses so one can look at it and express why it might agree or disagree with a different subjective.

So i feel the need to defend the process and the position and can only use my own personal reasonings. I'm not trying to subdue dissension...i'm just trying to make it more intelligent and respectful.

Which is fine to give your reasoning but no reason to imply that the discussion wasn't mostly intelligent and respectful just because people don't agree.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by f4faith


You can like everyone else give your reasoning why you choose as you did or explain the process or other opinions notedand see if others then see it and agree (or in my case seemed to verify what I felt about the results). Some still don't and that does not make their opinion any less valid than a group opinion or make it any more valid either. It just is. I have no issue with the making of the list but I can disagree with it. Don't agree with the top ten placings either but that's already been pointed out by others.


When did i say anyone's opinion was less valid? When have i said anything but the opposite? It's not opinions that i disagree with that i have a problem with (and i will argue those with great passion as well), but statements like "they shouldn't be on this list," "they don't deserve to be there" or "they're only there because of this" are completely erroneous and need to be corrected.

Originally posted by f4faith

I'm a mathetician. Don't tell me because the process had an mathematical basis that made it more relevant because it added up very as you say subjective opinions that makes the opinions more valid (not to mention depending on how they were added up could have given more weight to either extremely high or low scores within the group). They are still opinions not matter how you come up with a system to add them together. All anyone else is doing is expressing their opinions too and can be just as well read. I think the list is fun because it doesn't mimic anyone elses so one can look at it and express why it might agree or disagree with a different subjective.


I'm saying there was a process involved, this wasn't just a random selection of charact