X-TREME X-MEN #33 REVIEW

[Brian Wilkinson]

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/covers/xtxmen33.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/covers/xtxmen33t.jpg" align=left alt="X-Treme X-Men #33"></a>Reviewer: Brian E. Wilkinson, bewilkinson@comixfan.cjb.net
Quick Rating: Good
Story Title: Manifest Destiny

Rogue's mystique, Storm's clouds, and Sunspots flare... should be interesting!

Written by: Chris Claremont
Cover by: Salvador Larroca
Penciled by: Igor Kordey
Inked by: Scott Hanna
Colors by: Liquid!
Letters by: Randy Gentile
Assistant Editor: Annie Thornton
Editor: Mike Marts
Editor In Chief: Joe Quesada
President: Bill Jemas

Part of the problem with any story arc is that parts of it inevitably lag for one reason or another. It could be due to character exposition, a plot point that needs explaining, or simply to give the reader a chance to catch his or her breath. In past issues of this series, writer Chris Claremont has done this exceptionally well. One issue that comes to mind is the Cannonball spotlight back in #24, I believe. What set that issue apart, however, was that it was on its own and not part of a larger arc.

This issue isn't at all so focused on one individual or character, but at the same time feels like its lagging anyway. Why should it feel that way, though, consider it shows Rogue and Cannonball getting into a nasty fight with local teenage mutants (and no, they aren't turtles) and headway is being made into what is going on with the odd stance that Roberto DaCosta and X-Corp is making?

Well, I'll tell you.

Claremont is great at making relevant and interesting points. Being that he is Mr. X-Men himself, it makes sense that he champions their rights and does his best to make them the heroes that both his characters and readers want them to be. However, much like The Matrix Reloaded, this issue functions to beat the point over the head of the reader for a good five minutes. At one point, I felt like saying 'I get it' that just because you have powers doesn't mean you can act like a jerk.

Now while the point is valid, and hasn't been made to that particular group of people, it's becoming well-trodden ground by Claremont as of late. He made the point in X-Treme X-Men: X-Pose, to some degree in 'God Loves, Man Kills 2', and now again in 'Intifada'. While I'm honestly enjoying these X-Stories more than any of the others currently in print (and even in my fifteen years or so of reading these titles), I just want Claremont to move onto something new or to really force his plot in a new direction.

If rumours from within Marvel are true, however, that may not be an issue for much longer.

As it is, this issue was quite enjoyable on its own. Enough plot revelations to move things ahead and I believe a visit from an old villain is on the cards as well. I'm still bitter about the lack of Sunspot (and after Igor Kordey himself promised a bigger appearance in this issue just a few days ago), but I have more than enough faith that I'll get yet another great story.

Heck, faith has nothing to do with it. After all the great stories Claremont has put out, it seems odd to expect anything else.

Kordey's art is continuing to get stronger and stronger with each issue. The coloring is working well with his style and the inks are popping the characters off the page. A few places here and there still aren't working for me, such as Marie's appearance in court (doesn't her head look a tad large) but by and large these are small nit-picky things that I have no business bringing up anyway.

I'm alslo really waiting to see what happens with Storm and Gambit. The plot hasn't really moved as far ahead as I'd like it to there, and if I'm reading right, Storm DID create that tornado that messed up the world leader conference. The way I read it was that she was proving a point, but I think a good long phone call may have achieved the same effect. It was a lot of fun seeing all the old x-politicians appear as it's nice to know Claremont hasn't forgotten them all.

<table border=0 align=center><tr><td align=middle><a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-1.JPG" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-1t.JPG" alt="X-Treme X-Men #33 Page 1"></a></td><td align=middle><a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-2.JPG" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-2t.JPG" alt="X-Treme X-Men #33 Page 2"></a></td><td align=middle><a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-3.JPG" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-3t.JPG" alt="X-Treme X-Men #33 Page 3"></a></td><td align=middle><a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-4.JPG" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/firstlooks/031029/xtxmen33-4t.JPG" alt="X-Treme X-Men #33 Page 4"></a></td></tr></table>



Now an impromptu list of those I'd like to see appear in a Claremont book in the near future:

1. Lockheed
2. Longshot
3. Dazzler
4. Warlock
5. Sunspot
6. Multiple Man
7. Strong Guy
8. Gonzo
9. Jolly Green Giant
10. Mrs. Claremont

I have no idea where that came from, but if it gets Longshot back into an x-book, it's all good.

X-Treme X-Men #33 and 'Intifada' are well worth your time and money. Make sure you pick this book up before they're going-going-gone!


ART:
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STORY:
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OVERALL:
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Buy this issue online now from X-World Comics and save! (http://x-worldcomics.com/yourvirtualstore/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=51&cat=X%2DSTATIX+%28X%2DFORCE%29)

[zonzorp]

If rumours from within Marvel are true, however, that may not be an issue for much longer.
Are these the rumors we all know about, or are there new rumors floating around?

[zona75]

Though I haven't picked up this issue yet I have to say that I agree with some of the stuff. It definately feels like Chris is beating a dead horse at times, doesn't mean I likehim any less though.

I absolutely agree with the list of characters that should appear soon in the book, well minus Longshot, unless they update him and get rid of the mullet.

Also is anyone else severaly irritated that it would appear that Rogue will never be her flying superstrength version again simply b/c marvel wants the movie version, the Evolution version, the Ultimate version, and the mainstream version all to be the same. Ugh

Oh and what is this rumor that is floating around Marvel??? Please enlighten us!!!

[DiamondPaladinX]

I believe the rumor that Brian is implying is the main one. A strong rumor is flowing around that Claremont and the recently-exclusive Alan Davis will join together and take over a new book, most likely Uncanny X-Men if the rumor is true.

My guesses are it appears if such a chance would happen, it would occur right after Morrison's departure, since I'm guessing the storylines on the three X-Books will end along with New X-Men #154. That way, Marvel could be planning a new "era" for the X-Books, with the NXM replacement and Claremont once again returning to UXM, even the rumored Liefield's X-Force into the mix...wait, I just got an idea, though I can't put in here, not yet.

Remember, the previous passage is just a guess of mine, not confirmed fact. I repeat, NOT CONFIRMED FACT, JUST A GUESS.

But to the main subject, this issue was overall decent. Not spetucular, but enjoyable nonetheless.

[Kizmet]

X-Treme may focus a little heavily on people with power shouldn't abuse it, the human/mutant issue is nonexistant in Uncanny and in New even Jean has no hesitation when it comes to doing something like using her powers to make a press conference run more smoothly, which could certainly be seen as an abuse of her powers to manipulate the press.

[Zachary J. Morrison]

Good review, Brian. I liked the ish. My favorite part was when Rogue was having that bad dream and she shapeshifted into Mystique. That was SWEET! I can't wait to see what happens next.

[DeadXman]

this Issue is the Sit down and explain the plot part of any arc.
and one of the better ones the recent iss of UXM is one of the worse ones.

Hmmm I wonder who is the villian?

Igor Kordey has defently improved since his his run on Cable and NXM.

no one be said there is a replacment for Morrison yet is there?

Maybe They let him try all the main titles again(UXM,NXM,XXM).


third times a charm they say

[Silverwolf]

Claremont writing Uncanny would be great. At least he has respect for the characters. UXM would bounce back into my must-buy list immediatly.

Kordey's art is improving, but I still can't accept it after Larocca. Salvador is a tough act to follow.

[UMichWolverine]

Just out of curiosity did anyone else pick up on what Storm was saying regarding certain villains and former teachers?

I wonder if that fits at all into the continuity of NXM.

While I agree that this issue was lagging it seemed to fit into the arc as a whole quite well. The slow down seemed to help establish what exactly is going on here.

I liked Bobby's appearence. It was useful and it was in character. It wasn't a constant assault of "Here's Sunspot, we have to put him in every panel because he's a guest star."

I still don't get why people rag on Kordey so much. However, like I said over in the recent Exiles review, I tend to be a lot easier on artists than writers because I can't draw to save my life.

I think we will be getting a lead in to another major arc from here based on the ending of this issue. It is nice to see unresolved plot points from previous arcs work their way back in.

[Tan K.]

I still don't think Storm created the Storm based on her answer in #32. Maybe she was referring to doing away with it.

Also, maybe your feeling of getting beat over the head with the philosophy of XXM is CC making sure new readers are introduced and acclimated to the direction. Remember, this was orignially supposed to come out during the movie, so the direction-reiteration and the Rogue-Mystique thing were meant to coincide with the the hungrier movie goers.

The only part I felt lagged (well, lacked) was the beach scene.

Good Review.

I'm a Longshot man too, so I agree with ya about his return.

[Hotknife86]

Hey Zona75, I'm with you. I'll be quite disappointed if they get rid of Rogue's Ms. Marvel powers for good. Why the movie, Evolution, and other sources didn't have to follow the main one, I'll never know (although I guess I could understand the movie to a larger agree...)

I enjoyed the issue. Can't wait to see what Rogue and Sam do next issue...

[Iceman Xtreme]

its getting harder and harder to but this comic with every new issue. its just the same old crap over and over again.

if these rumors are true, it appears I wil be dropping uncanny. because I wont stay there and watch Mr claremont ruin Bobby, Warren et all like he has with Rogue in my opinion.
Plus I'm sure I remember reading that he wasnt a fan of Iceman, so my fav will vanish again anyway.:mad:

[Tan K.]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
its getting harder and harder to but this comic with every new issue. its just the same old crap over and over again.

if these rumors are true, it appears I wil be dropping uncanny. because I wont stay there and watch Mr claremont ruin Bobby, Warren et all like he has with Rogue in my opinion.
Plus I'm sure I remember reading that he wasnt a fan of Iceman, so my fav will vanish again anyway.:mad:

Soooo, when did you become a Rogue fan? CC is the one that made her the fan fave she was. Then during the 90's, it's pretty much a given she became a whiney version of her former spunky self and is only identifiable as Gambit's girlfriend. Then thank God CC takes her into the XXM world, and she is revamped and is confident again and has depth to her beyond Gambit. How horrible of CC to do that.

But if you like what is going on in Uncanny right now, there is no way you and I will ever see eye to eye.

[spinarakboi]

Good issue... I liked it. Even though it focus on a topic that's already been covered it still could use some exploring and it feels to me that X-Treme is the only book that's really doing some down to eart good in the world and actually *trying* to make a change. I'm enjoying this arc more than GLMK2 for what that's worth. How many more issues are there to go of this arc anyway?

[Thorn]

:D

I liked the issue immensely. I'm intrigued as to where this is going? Is Bogan involved? Will Rogue and Remy get their powers back? What will happen at Marie's trial? Sure it felt like the middle of an arc, but so what? It was a good middle chapter.

I've always been a fan of Chris's dream sequences that reveal a bit about the character. I knew Rogue was deeply affected by Mystique, but this dream seemed to show she's actually still afraid of Mystique. Maybe being depowered and more vulnerable is contributing to this.

Igor's art was great too. I agree with the above posters that I'd love to have Chris back on Uncanny. New X too if possible.

My only nitpic is with Mystique being portrayed as scaly. Why did this happen?!???????????????????!??!!??!? I thought that was the most ridiculous comic-to-movie change of all time and now that it's being retconned into the comic just exacerbates the silliness. Please, have Igor redraw the page for the tpb and from now on portray her without the scales!

Keep up the good work folks!

[Kevin Sutton]

My excitement grows with each issue. Far from lagging this issue moved along the main plot and resolved or reintroduced some other nagging plotlines. More questions were asked and new relevations made. There was action, emotion, and intellect on display here. The best issue yet on this book I think.

[zonzorp]

Originally posted by Tan K.
Soooo, when did you become a Rogue fan?

This wasn't aimed at me, but I'm going to grab the opportunity to say something that's been on my mind for a while.

I've been a Rogue fan since #31. I've never had much interest in the character previously, and in fact found her mildly annoying, especially what I read of her 90s incarnation.

Certain other books have caused me to lose interest in characters I've followed for years. XXM has made me interested in, and concerned about, characters I've never been interested in before, or who did not exist before.

[eLIAS bOGAN]

@zonzorp....

Back during the 90's, i loathed Rogue and Gambit feircly and kept awaiting their deaths but it never happened. The whineyness and boring-ness kept on and on on and on. Mr.C came back during the revolution and split them up. Still boring. He brought them over to X-Treme. Rogue became super powerful and Gambit spend 10 issues in a loin-cloth.

Issue 31 hit, and ever since then I've been a big fan of Rogue and Gambit to a lesser extent. "Intifada" has made me really like characters such as Sam and Rogue that i never really had an interest in beforehand. I really liked that flashback too;)

[XtremeRogue]

I think it's great that we got a little Rogue & Sam moment in this issue, because I've been hoping to see a connection between the two for quite some time. While I feel this issue was good, the overall arc in general isn't sitting that well with me.

I don't like Gambit. But I really try to. I mean I really try to look past the fact he's scum, but it just isn't working out. And issue 32 was proof for me that he'll always continue to be scum (not to mention what a complete slut Storm comes off as now). It's funny, because all of you are sitting here saying that CC has made Rogue into an interesting character and that she's no longer only known as "Gambit's girlfriend". Um, since when exactly? Gambit always has and always will ruin Rogue because she will always be tied to him, and what happened with him and Storm is only further proof. So yes, please, I beg you all to glorify their relationship while he sneaks around her back and plays his idiotic little games. I for one *love* seeing Rogue get hurt. :rolleyes:

Now I'm sure I'm going to get a bunch of Gambit-lovers running in here and defending him, but let me just tell you--I really don't care. You can defend Gambit for as long as you'd like, but it isn't going to change the fact that now that him and Rogue are "happy" he's still pulling his usual crap. And I know I'm going to get some dumb counter-argument like "SHE KISSED BISHOP FIRST!!" but whatever. Those are two completely and utterly different circumstances, so I'm not even going to waste my time there. This is all my own opinion and I have every right to express it, so if you choose to express yours in response to mine, so be it. Just know that it's not going to make a difference.

As for jumping on the Rogue bandwagon with issue 31, I find that horribly fickle. How do you suddenly like a character you've always hated in the course of ONE issue? It's different to say "I'm warming up to her" or "I don't mind her as much anymore," but to actually claim she's a favorite out of an insanely large list of characters after one issue...I don't see how that would happen. Especially since there have been many other issues where she has shined.

*End Rant*

[Tan K.]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
I think it's great that we got a little Rogue &amp; Sam moment in this issue, because I've been hoping to see a connection between the two for quite some time. While I feel this issue was good, the overall arc in general isn't sitting that well with me.

I don't like Gambit. But I really try to. I mean I really try to look past the fact he's scum, but it just isn't working out. And issue 32 was proof for me that he'll always continue to be scum (not to mention what a complete slut Storm comes off as now). It's funny, because all of you are sitting here saying that CC has made Rogue into an interesting character and that she's no longer only known as &quot;Gambit's girlfriend&quot;. Um, since when exactly? Gambit always has and always will ruin Rogue because she will always be tied to him, and what happened with him and Storm is only further proof. So yes, please, I beg you all to glorify their relationship while he sneaks around her back and plays his idiotic little games. I for one *love* seeing Rogue get hurt. :rolleyes:

Now I'm sure I'm going to get a bunch of Gambit-lovers running in here and defending him, but let me just tell you--I really don't care. You can defend Gambit for as long as you'd like, but it isn't going to change the fact that now that him and Rogue are &quot;happy&quot; he's still pulling his usual crap. And I know I'm going to get some dumb counter-argument like &quot;SHE KISSED BISHOP FIRST!!&quot; but whatever. Those are two completely and utterly different circumstances, so I'm not even going to waste my time there. This is all my own opinion and I have every right to express it, so if you choose to express yours in response to mine, so be it. Just know that it's not going to make a difference.

As for jumping on the Rogue bandwagon with issue 31, I find that horribly fickle. How do you suddenly like a character you've always hated in the course of ONE issue? It's different to say &quot;I'm warming up to her&quot; or &quot;I don't mind her as much anymore,&quot; but to actually claim she's a favorite out of an insanely large list of characters after one issue...I don't see how that would happen. Especially since there have been many other issues where she has shined.

*End Rant*

I am not going to try to convince you about Gambit because you are in part right. In some ways he is a scum, but others would call him a ladies man and suave. What's the difference? A thin line.

Sure Gambit and Rogue are girlfriend and boyfriend still, but like Susan/Reed, Scott/Jean, etc., one is not defined by the other like Rogue and Gambit were in the 90's.

As for the last paragraph: people start liking and characters for various reasons. It's not really your place to get onto people for liking someone later rather than sooner. I have been a Rogue fan since 1987, but during the 90's she was a far cry from her former self. Since XXM started (especially the Invasion arc), I have found her being transitioned back into something strong.

[NicholasRogue]

I loved this issue. I didn't think it was lagging at all. Sam and Rogue's new costumes were cool, can't wait to see the next issue. I didn't mind that the whole "use your power responsibly if you're a mutant speech" It didn't seem overemphasized to me. I'm interested in seeing more of Roberto and the X-Corp as well, thank goodness we get 2 issues this month. I swear I would hate it when XXM was only monthly, I couldn't stand the suspense lol!

[Irish Joe]

This issue is better than #32, but is still just another in a long line of boring, go-nowhere issues. I'd probably feel differently if this arc was following Schism instead of the slow-as-sloth God Loves, Man Kills 2. I can handle a boring arc once in awhile, but we've been traveling in first gear for the past eight months now. Enough is enough!

--

God Loves, Man Kills 2 is still a sticking point for me. The editors at Marvel had enough sense to release X-Treme X-Men in the Savage Land as a separate mini-series, so why didn't they have that same sensibility when it came to GLMK2? Or how about the Storm miniseries, which looks like its about to be printed in the pages of X-Treme X-Men? Has X-Treme X-Men become the dumping ground for every one of Claremont's mini-series ideas? After the commercial failure of Mechanics, and its subsequent marketing as part of the X-Treme X-Men saga, it would certainly seem so.

--

Besides Kordey's character designs and all the movie tie-ins/references, my biggest gripe with the book is, without a doubt, Claremont's poor fight choreography. Writing impossible-to-follow action scenes has always been Mr. Claremont's greatest weakness as a writer, but where Larroca's art mitigated the damage of Claremont's script, Kordey's aggrivates it.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by Tan K.


Soooo, when did you become a Rogue fan? CC is the one that made her the fan fave she was. Then during the 90's, it's pretty much a given she became a whiney version of her former spunky self and is only identifiable as Gambit's girlfriend. Then thank God CC takes her into the XXM world, and she is revamped and is confident again and has depth to her beyond Gambit. How horrible of CC to do that.

But if you like what is going on in Uncanny right now, there is no way you and I will ever see eye to eye.


Not that its much of your business, but I have been reading comics almost all of my life (in excess of 20 yrs). Iceman and Rogue have been two of my favourites since I can remember.

I think most people know this, but I will state it again. I HATE GAMBIT. you say CC has made Rogue a great character again and out of the shadow of Remy. Thats not what I see. They are a couple still, while he's around she will never ever get to shine on her own. Even now shes powerless whats the first thing people talk to her about? her relationship with Remy. Plus the fact shes still with him and he's still out being a male slut. like whats with this crap with him and Storm? yeah, its him being suave and Rogue kissed Bishop. little difference, Bishop was dressed and wasn't wishing the other person was out of the picture. All you remy fans will be like, but he said his heart belongs to Rogue. what about his mind, body and soul? at that point I'm sure his heart could have been silenced. I know for a fact if my girlfriend or myself acted like Gambit does, neither of us would stick together. Holding your naked friend close and kissing them isnt what you do if "your heart" belongs to someone.
So my opinion and I'm sticking to it, is Rogue hasn't gotten better at all. She's basically become an Anna Paquin rip off (and thats not good).:mad:

As for your comments on UXM, thats your opinion and I allow you to have them. I happen to like how Cain is being developed and I'm glad someone is finally using Iceman aka Mr Limbo.

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Tan K.
I am not going to try to convince you about Gambit because you are in part right. In some ways he is a scum, but others would call him a ladies man and suave. What's the difference? A thin line.
Sure Gambit and Rogue are girlfriend and boyfriend still, but like Susan/Reed, Scott/Jean, etc., one is not defined by the other like Rogue and Gambit were in the 90's.
As for the last paragraph: people start liking and characters for various reasons. It's not really your place to get onto people for liking someone later rather than sooner. I have been a Rogue fan since 1987, but during the 90's she was a far cry from her former self. Since XXM started (especially the Invasion arc), I have found her being transitioned back into something strong.
Thin line between scum and suave? I'm never going to understand that. How is he a "ladies man"? Seriously. I truly do not see this. How would you like it if your boyfriend made out with one of your best friends and held her naked body close? (Not you in particular Tan, just posing the question). It just boggles my mind.
Now as far as Rogue and Gambit not being linked like Jean/Scott or Reed/Susan...how are they not? It's still always Rogue AND Gambit. That's even how Intifada was solicited (granted it was the return of both of them, but still).
As for "getting onto people" for liking a character, well, I didn't mean to sound harsh or anything. I'm just asking for some clarification, because it doesn't really make sense to me how you can suddenly like a character you've long disliked in the course of one issue.

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was my gripe about all the freaking Anna Paquin movie posters. Did anyone else notice the poster for "Fly Away Home" on the wall? The Piano I can understand, but come on, F.A.H.? Apparently Rogue doesn't know anything other than Paquin movies. :x

[Eric Travis]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was my gripe about all the freaking Anna Paquin movie posters. Did anyone else notice the poster for &quot;Fly Away Home&quot; on the wall? The Piano I can understand, but come on, F.A.H.? Apparently Rogue doesn't know anything other than Paquin movies. :x

Not getting into the Gambit debate again... But I was going to mention that not every poster in the house was a Paquin movie.

Then I remembered that Anna Paquin was the voice of Sheeta in Miyazaki's Castle In The Sky. (With James Van Der Beek as Pazu...)

So...*cough* Nevermind. :p

[Kizmet]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Now I'm sure I'm going to get a bunch of Gambit-lovers running in here and defending him, but let me just tell you--I really don't care. You can defend Gambit for as long as you'd like, but it isn't going to change the fact that now that him and Rogue are &quot;happy&quot; he's still pulling his usual crap.

Oh yeah, back to Gambit bashing :rolleyes: . Naturally you're going to get people defending the character when you go on the attack. The thing is I know I've been in this very same argument with the same people numerous times before. It's getting boring.

What I've picked up about R/R's is that the relationship is happy just as long as Remy does exactly what Rogue wants him to. Not a healthy relationship, but one with a serious power imbalance in ROGUE's favor. That he'd rather have Rogue think he was doing stuff with the theives guild rather than the X-Men seems to indicate that there is some sort of problem with their relationship. That Remy never calls Rogue on using emotional blackmail to get him to what she wants is a mistake on his part, he does do his share to keep the problems going in their relationship, but Rogue isn't an innocent party either.

The kiss with Storm can basically be read in two ways, if you like Gambit it meant nothing, led nowhere, was never meant to lead anywhere. Basically it was a non-event other than something to used to titlate the readers (Like why in the world is Storm swimming nude when she can summon a bathing suit from the ether anyway?) Or if you don't like Gambit it's a crime worthy of hanging.

What I really don't see is how Remy is 'always' hurting Rogue. They both spent most of the 90's angsting over the other. The hurting seems to go in both directions. I would have been perfectly happy if their break up in Gambit #16 had been a permanent one, because they seemed to make one another miserable. But this time at least the characters aren't continually rehashing the same old ground.

Something is not right about their relationship, possibly the problem is that Gambit is not dealing with loosing his powers very well. Chances are if that's the case Rogue isn't helping since after #19, I think Remy would be most likely to hide any unhappiness from her. I'd really love to see something of what's going on in Remy's head, but this arc isn't about Rogue and Remy, despite the promos, Rogue is getting the lions share of the panel time between the two of them.

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Kizmet
Oh yeah, back to Gambit bashing :rolleyes: . Naturally you're going to get people defending the character when you go on the attack. The thing is I know I've been in this very same argument with the same people numerous times before. It's getting boring.
Naturally, yes, which is why I said go for it. But if this is just so boring for you, then no one's twisting your arm to respond. The same argument may be getting brought up, but I'm still getting the same insufficient answers.
What I've picked up about R/R's is that the relationship is happy just as long as Remy does exactly what Rogue wants him to. Not a healthy relationship, but one with a serious power imbalance in ROGUE's favor. That he'd rather have Rogue think he was doing stuff with the theives guild rather than the X-Men seems to indicate that there is some sort of problem with their relationship. That Remy never calls Rogue on using emotional blackmail to get him to what she wants is a mistake on his part, he does do his share to keep the problems going in their relationship, but Rogue isn't an innocent party either.
Oh I love this argument, this answer is always the best. Rogue is so controlling! Remy only does what Rogue wants! Very amusing. I love how the people who use this excuse are the same people who fail to recognize the fact that when Gambit and Rogue first hooked up, he controlled her like flipping puppet. "Kiss me Rogue, you won't absorb me. Take the chance. I wont hurt you. Oh, by the way, I'm married. Sorry, I forgot to mention that." Yeah, ok. I especially love how it's somehow Rogue's fault that Gambit is a liar and didn't tell her the truth about the mission. Oh no, it must be that "emotional blackmail" again. :rolleyes:

But hey, we should all just feel sympathetic to Gambit, really. I mean the poor guy has lost his powers. How on earth is he going to deal with life?? Marcia, marcia, marcia....
Rogue lost her powers as well, but you don't see her suddenly not being able to handle herself. Now some may say that hers were more of a liability whereas Gambit enjoyed his, but let's not forget how Rogue got beaten and trashed by those mutant kids. Instead of letting it get to her, she got up and found a way to deal, and kicked ass in the last issue. And you're telling me Gambit can't do this? :LOL:

[W. Molstad]

Okay, my username is "Colossal Gambit", so I may have a bias here... :gambit:

But let me just say that Gambit really loves Rogue far more than others in his lifetime. She sort of "fixes" him and all of his past mistakes. I think that Gambit's character was for the longest time about atonement. Yet he's always been kind of wild and happy go lucky. He's really a complex character, but I wouldn't call him some scoundrel. Sure he is a rogue, but he's kind of along the same lines as Hawkeye and Wolverine. He certainly has morals, even if he is a bit worldly.

But you have to wonder, what is Claremont setting up? Storm and Gambit would make more sense for the X-Men movie series, due to Rogue already having somewhat of a relationship with Bobby. Personally I'd rather have Bobby get his frozen butt kicked and have Gambit take Rogue out on a date by the end of X3.

However the :storm: Storm scene was titillating.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by Colossal Gambit
Rogue already having somewhat of a relationship with Bobby. Personally I'd rather have Bobby get his frozen butt kicked and have Gambit take Rogue out on a date by the end of X3.


I would like to think Rogue's reply to that would be...........

"dream on bucket head"

(that and Gambit would get his ass handed to him)

Singer has set up that couple for a reason, you may not understand it or like it, but he knows. As I have said many many times before, Gambit makes no sense movie wise. As the makers have said themselves, he's too similar to others used already, powers too similar to Cyke as in they are just another energy discharge. Personality, too much like Logan. no need for another dark brooder. they don't seem to want to use him. Much to my pleasure.

Back to the comic tho, I juust love how Remy fans can make up these excuses for his behaviour. if a real life bf or gf acted like that would you stand for it? no? they why should a comic character I love have to? simple answer, SHE SHOULDN'T!!

[DCUnited]

Originally posted by Thorn
:D
My only nitpic is with Mystique being portrayed as scaly. Why did this happen?!???????????????????!??!!??!? I thought that was the most ridiculous comic-to-movie change of all time and now that it's being retconned into the comic just exacerbates the silliness. Please, have Igor redraw the page for the tpb and from now on portray her without the scales!


Two things, one the whole comic book scaly version of Mystique happened waaay back in a mini series called X-Men Forever. That was when Toad and Mystique were updated to match their movie counterparts. Writers kept Toad kind of like what happened because he looks cooler now, but Mystique just pretty much went back to normal.

Two, I haven't read the issue yet, but is there any possible way that maybe Rogue isn't Rogue but Mystique? That would explain the shape shifting. If this conflicts with something from the issue forgive me, like I said I haven't read it yet.

[DeadXman]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
its getting harder and harder to but this comic with every new issue. its just the same old crap over and over again.

if these rumors are true, it appears I wil be dropping uncanny. because I wont stay there and watch Mr claremont ruin Bobby, Warren et all like he has with Rogue in my opinion.
Plus I'm sure I remember reading that he wasnt a fan of Iceman, so my fav will vanish again anyway.:mad:


Iceman, You do know he created rogue, Right? and gambit in fact I do be made most of the Extrme team. ( I'm not to sure about storm can some tell me)

And because he isn't a fan of Ice man dosn't mean he'll vanish.
If fans want it enouth I'm sure Bobby will get a Head.;)

[UMichWolverine]

Originally posted by DCUnited


Two, I haven't read the issue yet, but is there any possible way that maybe Rogue isn't Rogue but Mystique? That would explain the shape shifting. If this conflicts with something from the issue forgive me, like I said I haven't read it yet.

It was apparently a dream sequence.

Also, please god no. If they do that, then Mystique officially becomes the female Wolverine, somehow managing to be everywhere at once and continuity of certain books gets called into question.

[Tan K.]

Originally posted by DeadXman



Iceman, You do know he created rogue, Right? and gambit in fact I do be made most of the Extrme team. ( I'm not to sure about storm can some tell me)

And because he isn't a fan of Ice man dosn't mean he'll vanish.
If fans want it enouth I'm sure Bobby will get a Head.;)

The only one he didn't create was Bishop (I think that was a Portacio/Byrne/Lee one).

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Tan K.
The only one he didn't create was Bishop (I think that was a Portacio/Byrne/Lee one).

He didn't create Storm - she along with all the Giant Sized X-Men were created before he took over - but it was not long after that he did so he pretty much defined them.

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
The same argument may be getting brought up, but I'm still getting the same insufficient answers.

The answers are only "insuffient" if you are only willing to look at it from one side and that's all you are doing. (abet there are others only looking at it from the other side.)

Oh I love this argument, this answer is always the best. Rogue is so controlling! Remy only does what Rogue wants! Very amusing.

Why? You say others are not going to change your mind but they have a right to their opinion like yours. And is it so hard to believe that Rogue is not a saint? I think there is some good issues on both sides. That's why they are spunky and intense characters. When written properly they are not clones of one another. There will be differences and they will not react the same way. Why does Storm react as she does to things? Tehy seem as happy as they can right now. It's new but I don't see Rogue being hurt by anything right now.

I love how the people who use this excuse are the same people who fail to recognize the fact that when Gambit and Rogue first hooked up, he controlled her like flipping puppet.

Right :rolleyes: - so all that flirting (ala her talking to him about Longshot him Belle when she was pulling his head band off was never Rogue doing some teasing/controling.) And you so kindly forgot that when Rogue really explained to Gambit why she couldn't kiss him in 24 - he *never* asked her to kiss him again (egad that cad - how dare he listen and understand). She did kiss him on her own. You also seem to assume that the characters must know what you as the reader knows - ie why Rogue reacts as she does - see it from the point of view of someone coming in and seeing Rogue kiss villains when she needs to borrow their powers (which she most certainly did frequently) and then why wouldn't they think a kiss would really be that big of a deal?

&quot;Kiss me Rogue, you won't absorb me. Take the chance. I wont hurt you. Oh, by the way, I'm married. Sorry, I forgot to mention that.&quot;

Small surrpise being that he'd been seaparated for years and he and Rogue had yet to have moment to get to really know each other yet. ' They hadn't even been on a date - you act like at the time they were committed when they were not. It's not like he was living with Belle either or ever planned to (unlike some other characters I could mention in other books). This is comics - that sort of past stuff is very much involved - like villains showing up as relatives.

Yeah, ok. I especially love how it's somehow Rogue's fault that Gambit is a liar and didn't tell her the truth about the mission.

Or why she didn't ask? Maybe she doesn't care. You seem convinced she's not happy just because she can't be if she's a couple with Gambit (ie from your comments being in any couple would be the same actually - no couole can be completely devoiid of the other). Why not wait and see? I don't expect them to be perfect but I see no reason why they are unhappy. Gambit's helping a friend and Rogue's doing as she needs too. If she was worried about him she could ask. He's not clinging to her as you seem to want so why should she have to cling to his every action. Maybe she knows it's nothing like she herself has done and as Gambit pointed out to Storm.

Rogue's kiss with Bishop was no different from Gambit's with Storm. It was a kiss of affection. The fact that Storm then "seems" (she may not be except in the idea of her not being involved with someone) to act interested is not Gambit's issue. And she came out of the water holding on to Gambit and then he has to be her shield isn't either. Now the fact that she had to be nude (something I agree with Kizmet made no sense except as comic book logic) when she had to know the government people were looking for her after what she did was just for shock.

Any couple will be a part of one another but there is a difference between acting just so all the time because of it and that's part of the poor writing the two had in the past.

Rogue lost her powers as well, but you don't see her suddenly not being able to handle herself.

No one says he can't. Just that Claremont hasn't bothered to have Gambit do much of anything yet - which is a valid point of this mostly having been Rogue's return to the stories so far not Gambit's.

Originally posted by DeadXman
If fans want it enouth I'm sure Bobby will get a Head.;)

I think he has a Head - it's the Body he needs ;)

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by DeadXman



Iceman, You do know he created rogue, Right? and gambit in fact I do be made most of the Extrme team. ( I'm not to sure about storm can some tell me)

And because he isn't a fan of Ice man dosn't mean he'll vanish.
If fans want it enouth I'm sure Bobby will get a Head.;)


He DID???:O (btw thats sarcasm) :p

as I mentioned before I have been reading comics for over 20 years. I even bought my girl friend the avengers annual that has the first appearance of Rogue. So I know a little of the history of the character whom I would say is my 2nd favourite behind Iceman.

Nice joke, at least Austen is using Bobby. I don't recall Mr Claremont evering using him well (or at all).

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by f4faith
The answers are only &quot;insuffient&quot; if you are only willing to look at it from one side and that's all you are doing. (abet there are others only looking at it from the other side.)
Don't preach to me about one-sided answers because...

...actually, no. Forget it. I was going to reply to your obvious misconstruing of my post, but it's just been proven to me time and again that it's a waste of my life. I just find it funny that you automatically assume I won't acknowledge any of Rogue's own misdeeds, when you yourself are making Gambit out to be guilt-free. I didn't say you believe he is, I said you're making him out to be, so don't even jump on me like a rabid hyena there. Your entire post is full of and based on assumptions about what I think, when you don't know sh*t about me or my connection to comics.

So it's ok. You all love Gambit for the same reasons that I hate him, therefore we're obviously just going to go around in circles. Gambit could get it on with Northstar, come back to Rogue and tell her he loves her, and chances are someone will still defend him. There's an apparent double standard here when it's a rule that Rogue's "emotional blackmail" must be acknowledged and shouldn't be defended, but it's all good for everything Gambit does. :cheers:

[Dantez]

Haha this is fun. THink I'll toss in my 2 cents' worth.

On the ish, yeah it was lagging a bit, and considering we're on pt 3 of 5 I do hope things pick up a little. Also, Gambit has had all of 5 lines in the entire storyline so far. Hardly the great return that was advertised.
The art.....still hate it. It looks childish and I'm really tired of everyone looking like they're 13 years old. Including Storm.
Oh and if you do a shot from underneath to a face? The chin line does not look pointy and the eyes really have to go in a slope and can no longer be in a straight line. Because, hey, faces are ROUND.
And don't think I haven't noticed that the reviews first hated the art, but ever since Kordey has appeared on this board, it's been praised more and more.........cough...

On the whole Rogue-Gambit thing:

I love Rogue. I love Gambit. But I've never cared for them as a couple all that much. It's also funny how many people here say either how 'Chris ruined the characters' or how they refer to the 90's as 'the old days'.

Either I'm ancient or everyone here is 12 years old. Don't tell me which....please.......*sigh*.....leave me my illusions. Both of them. ;)

When I started reading X-Men, it was in the middle of the Claremont/Byrne/Austin days. So I pretty much grew up on Claremont's run. Which as we all know, was a long one. To me, the overall crappy days of the 90's were some 'in-between' period that I don't even dwell on too much.
So yeah, let's get that straight. Rogue and Gambit in particular were created and defined by Chris. Those guys (especially the editors) in the late 90's messed them up.

Those characters......Ahh.....Rogue was my favorite almost from the start. And Gambit, how he was introduced, well.let me put it this way, I never cared for Longshot, sorry. So damn innocent, wholesome and doe-eyed all the time. I like characters with an edge. A dark side to them. Like most of us have. I never cared for the boyscout types.
Gambit was introduced like an outsider like Longshot, falling into the X-Men from nowhere (Albeit less literally than Longshot) but with an attitude and his own agenda. Dark and mysterious. And he didn't treat all the X-Men like they were 'so coool' like most younger team members usually did. It was intriguing. Of course it was pretty much fragged up when they started revealing his past.

And the Rogue-Gambit relationship became the equivalent of a bad day time soap opera, not helped by the revolving door at Marvel that had writers come and go at lightning speed, changing course constantly, retcon what the others had done and had the two of them break up and get together more than........well anyone I can think of. Pffff.....enough.

Also, now they are an official couple and while there's nothing technically wrong with that, I just don't care. My personal weakness. I can like tension, flirting, hidden feelings, pining, slowly revealed affection, etc. But once a couple is happy and lovey-dovey I lose interest.
And especially characters like Rogue and Gambit who are supposed to be the wilder ones, the rebels, it's just.....dull.

And yeah I have to agree that the Storm/Gambit scene was a little off. I mean Storm has NEVER talked or looked at Remy that way and that includes Chris' earlier take on them. I don't see much more in it than the Rogue/Bishop kiss but it's just....off.

Gambit is interesting as the insider that you can ALMOST completely trust. The only scene with him I've liked in the last few years (practically since his early days) was when he met Vargas by himself. That was the Gambit I remember. Ever since then he lies around or plays assistent to Storm. Great.

And really, he and Rogue have both been equally crappy to each other over the years, but that's mainly because the different writers shoved them back and forth all the time.

Oh and guys, different people have different tastes and will like different characters. Nothing wrong with that. The "How can you (not) LIKE that character???" discussions usually don't really go anywhere.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Don't preach to me about one-sided answers

Then don't come in "preaching" about how you laugh at anyone else's point implying their view can't be as valid as yours. You're the one who brought up the issue but then get defensive when others disagree or some what disagree with you.

I just find it funny that you utomatically assume I won't acknowledge any of Rogue's own misdeeds,

I didn't assume anything - you didn't acknowledge anything being Rogue's fault. You were laughing at the points that Rogue might have used Gambit some - and no I don't fully agree with Kizmet either. I think Gambit has certainly kept Rogue in the dark when he shouldn't have and she him. More that he doesn't mind ignoring issues that make Rogue happy - it's how he deals with his family in general(his father) including Storm - he tries to get Storm to quit over using her power but then ignores it because he knows it's up to her, so it has little to do with Rogue but how Gambit reacts.

when you yourself are making Gambit out to be guilt-free.

Since when? I acknowledged they both had issues - i just responded to point out that your making Gambit out to be the "villain" in certain instances was not that cut and dry. I never thought Gambit had any "lofty" thoughts about Rogue when he first started flirting with her (he didn't with Betsy but Betsy wasn't interested so Gambit didn't serious bother her again). It was just attraction - but then I think the same of Rogue. Neither were being cruel but they weren't out to be open either. Just because that changed over time, doesn't change that fact in the beginning. people do just date for fun. Nor are either saints now. They will fight. I don't mind angst - i just hate is continually circling the same old well over and over and never any progression.

Your entire post is full of and based on assumptions about what I think, when you don't know sh*t about me or my connection to comics.

I know what you've expressed (which is why i used the word *seem* alot in my post if you look) - is that not what you think?

There's an apparent double standard here when it's a rule that Rogue's &quot;emotional blackmail&quot; must be acknowledged and shouldn't be defended,

Again since when? No one said a word about Rogue kissing Bishop until others pointed out Gambit kissing Storm. so I don't see how that's a double standard in only Gambit's favor.

Originally posted by Dantez
had the two of them break up and get together more than........well anyone I can think of.

Havok and Polaris still hold the record in my book for both break-ups and really badly written ones (how many times has one of them gone "bad"?) - the break-ups just lasted for longer periods (and hey they are in one now !!!) :p

Oh and guys, different people have different tastes and will like different characters. Nothing wrong with that. The &quot;How can you (not) LIKE that character???&quot; discussions usually don't really go anywhere.

Exactly. I don't like Psylocke or Jean but I also don't see them as "evil" creatures out to do bad to those they may have hurt on occasion either including their significant others.

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by f4faith
Then don't come in &quot;preaching&quot; about how you laugh at anyone else's point implying their view can't be as valid as yours. You're the one who brought up the issue but then get defensive when others disagree or some what disagree with you.
What are you still debating about? Have I not made it clear that I don't care to incessantly banter over something futile (which I'm more or less forced to respond to now). Yes, I brought up the issue, that's correct. I'm not getting "defensive" over the fact you don't agree with me. If that was the case, I wouldn't have put in my little disclaimer earlier on.
As for not assuming anything, casually throwing in the word "seem" doesn't take away from the fact you're telling me what you think is right, when it isn't.
No one said a word about Rogue kissing Bishop until others pointed out Gambit kissing Storm. so I don't see how that's a double standard in only Gambit's favor.
What does Rogue kissing Bishop have to do with the manner in which people defend Gambit? I haven't mentioned that since three or four posts ago, and is totally irrelevant to what I was stating about it.
I don't like Psylocke or Jean but I also don't see them as &quot;evil&quot; creatures out to do bad to those they may have hurt on occasion either including their significant others.
Oh, look, more comparisons out of nowhere and misconstruing. Who said Gambit was evil? Did I once say he was? It's pretty obvious he isn't. Or is that just another assumption that I "seem" to be expressing--Gambit's evilness?

[Dantez]

Havok and Polaris still hold the record in my book for both break-ups and really badly written ones (how many times has one of them gone "bad"?) - the break-ups just lasted for longer periods (and hey they are in one now !!!)

You're right! How could I forget about them! Haha yeah poor Alex and Lorna! They've definitely been kicked around more than even Rogue and Gambit! And I don't even know about their current woes. (Well I know bits)

Still Rogue and Remy have had their share of being fragged up.
A few examples: (I'm feeling giddy)

-Gambit has secrets! (Intriguing) :scared:

-He had a run in with Sabretooth were he was a total a-hole to a girl who wound up dead. (Uhm....that's not a dark past, that's just being a jerk.) :wt:

-He has a connection to the Mutant Massacre and Sinister. (Intriguing.) :scared:

-There was something that happened at a theater in Seattle (Intriguing.....huh? whaddayaMEAN we never find out???) :#

-He formed the Morlocks for Sinister! (The bastard. Then again, all he did was gather some pros for someone else.)

-He LED Them to the tunnels! (Uh no he didn't. In that story they clearly showed us that morlock girl led them to the tunnels.) :nonono:

-He didn't KNOW they were going to kill them all! (He gathers a group of professional killers and has no idea they might KILL someone?? That's not evil, that's too stupid to live!) :cuckoo:

-But he still didn't know and tried to save some. (Yeah, stupid but not like he slaughtered children next to Creed or something)

-Rogue dumps him without clothes in the arctic and the X-Men who wouldn't even kill Sabretooth are sorta okay with it. (Huh??) :wt:

-Rogue didn't REALLY choose to leave him, it was sort of Gambit's own mind in HER mind wanting to be left behind even though he really didn't wanna be left behind.....or something.... (Huh?????) :insane: :wall:

Well I could go on and on.... But I'd like to point out that it's hard to judge the totality of a character when so much they've done is more the result of outside influences mucking things up rather than the natural progression of the characters themselves. Outside influences of writers coming and going and editors changing things and scratching scenes and reworking and retconning plots that have been building up for months.
Like the arctic thing. Many people were angry about that. But Lobdell had worked up to that climax but that final ending was NOT what he had intended at all. And then they retcon it. That kind of stuff is just the editorial folk mucking up story and character.

Technically once something is printed it's canon, but I've had to disregard a lot of stuff over the years.

And now Chris has joined the foray by suddenly having Storm profess some desire for Remy?? Oookay....dissappointed.

(Sorry bout the excess smileys but they're just fun)

[Kizmet]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue

What are you still debating about? Have I not made it clear that I don't care to incessantly banter over something futile (which I'm more or less forced to respond to now). Yes, I brought up the issue, that's correct. I'm not getting &quot;defensive&quot; over the fact you don't agree with me. If that was the case, I wouldn't have put in my little disclaimer earlier on.


:LOL:, the only way I can read the first post you sent on the subject was as an invitation to start this fight again. Mabye you feel you made it clear you don't want to incessantly banter about it, but upon reading your post my response was "Oh :bleep: I've got to defend my favorite from character assassination yet again."

I know I'm completely one sided when I argue with you over Gambit. You won't admitt there's anything good about him. My knee jerk response is that okay, I'm not going to admit any faults.

There are times when I half way like Rogue, but every time a debate starts up where she's made out to be this complete victim who's so horribly abused by Gambit I slip back into my post-Antiartic, hating Rogue with a passion state of mind. In the resolution to that story line I felt like the book read like "Oh poor Rogue. That awful Gambit made her leave him to freeze to death, oh boo hoo for Rogue she's such a victim." I found it the most incredibly ridulous and insulting resolution to that particular story line. Gambit is the one who is nearly killed and Rogue is the one we're supposed to feel sorry for? :?

[Commander Breetai]

Originally posted by Thorn
:My only nitpic is with Mystique being portrayed as scaly. Why did this happen?!???????????????????!??!!??!? I thought that was the most ridiculous comic-to-movie change of all time and now that it's being retconned into the comic just exacerbates the silliness. Please, have Igor redraw the page for the tpb and from now on portray her without the scales!

Well, you can blame Fabian Nieczieca ( sp? ) and X-Men Forever for that. Basically, it was stated there that her new "base form" is the one from the movie. Now, it clearly appears she prefers her more normal form, but as of now it hasn´t been contradicted officially that her new "normal" form is the scaly one, AFAIK. Of course there´s also the issue that Rogue never saw her in that new form, so it´s all a bit of a mess.

Magnus

[Dantez]

Well, you can blame Fabian Nieczieca ( sp? ) and X-Men Forever for that. Basically, it was stated there that her new "base form" is the one from the movie. Now, it clearly appears she prefers her more normal form, but as of now it hasn´t been contradicted officially that her new "normal" form is the scaly one, AFAIK. Of course there´s also the issue that Rogue never saw her in that new form, so it´s all a bit of a mess.

I'LL say.... I remember the Forever storyline and going "Oh no..." But then Mystique was just Mystique in the comics as we've always known her. So....alright. But now all of a sudden Rogue as Mystique is scaly againn.....ENOUGH WITH THE MOVIE REFERENCES ALREADY!!

The movie is based on the COMICS! NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUNDD!! :aargh:

And yeah, someone else pointed out too ENOUGH WITH THE ANNA PAQUIN MOVIESGRNF!! The fun has sorta run out of it.....

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Kizmet
the only way I can read the first post you sent on the subject was as an invitation to start this fight again. but upon reading your post my response was &quot;Oh :bleep: I've got to defend my favorite from character assassination yet again.&quot;
Fair enough. But do you expect me to say "NO ONE REPLY TO ME, EVER!"? I don't think so. Not to mention that the reason I even bring up the issue in the first place is in the apparently fruitless hope that I might get some different opinions than yours for a change.
I know I'm completely one sided when I argue with you over Gambit. You won't admitt there's anything good about him.
That's just plain false and ignorant right there.
My knee jerk response is that okay, I'm not going to admit any faults.
Oh, that's smart. :rolleyes: "Do as I say, not as I do." Just proves to me that the mentality here isn't worth my effort.
Gambit is the one who is nearly killed and Rogue is the one we're supposed to feel sorry for?
Nearly killed by his own doing. I don't recall the X-Men telling him to be an idiot and screw himself in the process.

[Iceman Xtreme]

X-men forever was retconned from Cannon, so the fact CC and Igor have made Raven scaley is wrong. but I'm sure they'll find some excuse for it.

[Kizmet]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Fair enough. But do you expect me to say &quot;NO ONE REPLY TO ME, EVER!&quot;? I don't think so. Not to mention that the reason I even bring up the issue in the first place is in the apparently fruitless hope that I might get some different opinions than yours for a change.

So basically you post the same opinion on Gambit every time you mention him, but I should just shut up, because I've already said my bit and you want to hear from someone else.

I feel exactly the same way, I'd rather hear opinions about Gambit from someone who is not you.


That's just plain false and ignorant right there.

When have you ever said anything positive about Gambit? I believe your intial quote this time went along the lines of "I've tried to like this character but he's just scum."


Oh, that's smart. :rolleyes: &quot;Do as I say, not as I do.&quot; Just proves to me that the mentality here isn't worth my effort.

No, I'm not saying "Do as I say, not as I do". I'm saying expect to reap what you sow. Aka I'm doing the same thing you do. You set the tone of the arguement with the intial post I responded to that tone.

If I completely trash a character I'd expect a vehiment response from the character's fans. If I start questioning the intelligence of other posters... Like you're doing right now... I would expect to be personally insulted in return.


Nearly killed by his own doing. I don't recall the X-Men telling him to be an idiot and screw himself in the process.

And I recall what nearly got him killed was Rogue deciding to fly off and leave him in Antartica as a punishment for being minimally involved in the Massacar and for keeping secrets. This is despite the fact that the X-Men wouldn't consider killing Sabretooth, who's involvment in the Massacar far exceeded Remy's.

I don't have "My Fair Lady" in front of me at the moment, but there's a great line about it's not good manners or bad manners but consistent manners.

Rogue's actions in Antartica are completely inconsistent with what the X-Men established as moral behavior, but she is never held accountable for that. That is why I hate the resolution of that story line. Instead of holding Rogue accountable for her actions, Remy is blamed for somehow controlling her. (also is was really specific control, he wanted to die so she left him, but not to die instantly in the explosion but of exposure... and he got over his suicidal impulse real, real quick given that he started working to save his life in time to avoid hypotermia after being dumped shirtless in Antartica)

It was a cheap way to dismiss the whole issue without facing the hypocrisy of the X-Men trying to help Sabretooth after the Masscar but giving implicit approval Rogue's judgement of Remy.

[Iceman Xtreme]

dry your eyes and stop your crying. :( :( :( she left him to die, pity he didnt!!

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Kizmet
So basically you post the same opinion on Gambit every time you mention him, but I should just shut up, because I've already said my bit and you want to hear from someone else.
I feel exactly the same way, I'd rather hear opinions about Gambit from someone who is not you.
Odd, I don't recall Gambit making out with a naked Storm at all other than in this issue (but I could be wrong...hey, it's Gambit afterall), so I don't see how I could have given the same opinion on that, since that was my entire issue here. Unless you mean my hatred of the character in general, in which case, unlike you and your Antarctica rant, I don't continually use the same exact case to defend my stance.
As for hearing opinions about Gambit from someone other than myself, you didn't have to respond to me, so that in itself is humorous.
When have you ever said anything positive about Gambit? I believe your intial quote this time went along the lines of &quot;I've tried to like this character but he's just scum.&quot;
Actually I did say he wasn't evil. But without even counting that, and supposing that I didn't say anything positive about him IN THIS THREAD doesn't mean I haven't elsewhere. Which, by the way, acknowledging his few good points wouldn't particularly serve to back up my opinion. It wouldn't make sense to say I hate Gambit, but he's a pretty suave card-thrower. :rolleyes:
Im not saying &quot;Do as I say, not as I do&quot;. I'm saying expect to reap what you sow. Aka I'm doing the same thing you do. You set the tone of the arguement with the intial post I responded to that tone.
Reap what I sow? Again, what I sought was some differing opinions and takes on the character, not the same argument rehashed. But you can flog the dead horse all you'd like, it doesn't matter to me. I said Gambit is scum, and I'll continue to say it until he proves otherwise. (*insert repetitive quote from Kizmet about how he already has*) Sorry, I don't agree.
Then again, no, I'm not really sorry.
If I start questioning the intelligence of other posters... Like you're doing right now... I would expect to be personally insulted in return.
Like you said, "expect to reap what you sow." You responded to my initial post in a condescending, "I know everything" manner, so don't expect me to sit and listen. And claiming without proof that I never have nor will admit there's anything redeeming about Gambit is ignorant and clueless, as you clearly don't know what you're talking about or what I think, so I called you on that.
And I recall what nearly got him killed was Rogue deciding to fly off and leave him in Antartica as a punishment for being minimally involved in the Massacar and for keeping secrets.
What got him killed were his thoughtless and irresponsible actions that came back to bite him in the ass. MINIMALLY INVOLVED? lolol... :LOL:
Rogue's actions in Antartica are completely inconsistent with what the X-Men established as moral behavior, but she is never held accountable for that.
She wasn't held accountable because the X-Men were behind her on it. Not that any of this is even relevant to my initial point.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Again, what I sought was some differing opinions and takes on the character, not the same argument rehashed.

But you are the one rehashing the same argument we've seen you say before. You do seem to expect everyone to do as you say not as you do. Just adding your take on a new scene (last I checked one kiss does not a make out make - ask Rogue) does not change that it's the same argument you've made before. The only difference is that you seem to keep saying you only want to hear from people you want to (who agree with you?) and anyone else can't respond because you don't want to hear it. Now that's hilarious.

[Iceman Xtreme]

f4faith.....may I ask why you suddenly had to stick you nose into the conversation between XtremeRogue and Kizmet?

They had a healthy debate going till you stuck your unwanted oar in, but seems that if anyone on here bad mouths Remy its a crime. Its like on the Xtreme thread itself, someone hates Kordeys art and states it, so they flame him by saying he isnt in the X club. Like that makes his opinion any less valid. I see you all stick together. what's it like being a sheep by the way?

And before you start on me for defending XR, I havent butted in and taken over the topic like you have.

food for thought there, chew it over a while.

Thnx:cheers:

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by f4faith
But you are the one rehashing the same argument we've seen you say before. You do seem to expect everyone to do as you say not as you do. Just adding your take on a new scene (last I checked one kiss does not a make out make - ask Rogue) does not change that it's the same argument you've made before. The only difference is that you seem to keep saying you only want to hear from people you want to (who agree with you?) and anyone else can't respond because you don't want to hear it. Now that's hilarious.
Wow. Will the amazement never cease... :yawn:
Did you even read my initial post? I don't give a rats ass about who replies, as I've now said about 800 times. The point is that I was seeking to hear some opinions I haven't already heard, which is kind of the entire idea behind a message board. Sue me, I've demanded something so unthinkable!
This thread is the XXM REVIEW thread, meaning that my discussion of the Gambit/Storm scene is perfectly relevant and within the context of this topic. I didn't turn around and randomly say "oh, yeah, I don't like how Gambit almost died back in Antarctica" in order to rehash the same argument, so your point is completely moot.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
f4faith.....may I ask why you suddenly had to stick you nose into the conversation between XtremeRogue and Kizmet?

Because I was already in this discussion before. Mine just haven't been as long.

I see you all stick together. what's it like being a sheep by the way?

I am so not impressed by people name calling others "ganging up" on them when they don't get the response they want. Going with name calling is a sign of a weak defense. I've never called anything a club and I'm only luke warm on Kordey's art myself but I don't have to complain all the time about it either.

And before you start on me for defending XR, I havent butted in and taken over the topic like you have.

I took over? One small paragraph is a take over? Dang I'm good. :D I easily could have said more ;)

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Did you even read my initial post? I don't give a rats ass about who replies, as I've now said about 800 times.

Yes you do care or you wouldn't have had to respond to her post to complain about it or mine. And you complained about responses you might get in your first post. You can say that you don't but your responses do not back the words up. You keep saying you want a different opinion? What would that be then if you don't care who responds?

The point is that I was seeking to hear some opinions I haven't already heard, which is kind of the entire idea behind a message board.

No - the idea behind a message board is to hear opinions - they are not required to be ones you've not heard before if no one has anything new to say to the same question asked before. If you got a different one then swell but it is not a given. You are not required to have a different opinion and neither is anyone else.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by f4faith


Because I was already in this discussion before. Mine just haven't been as long.

no, suddenly you appear and start making essay like posts in the middle of a conversation between 2 other posters. thats sticking your nose in.

I am so not impressed by people name calling others &quot;ganging up&quot; on them when they don't get the response they want. Going with name calling is a sign of a weak defense. I've never called anything a club and I'm only luke warm on Kordey's art myself but I don't have to complain all the time about it either.

Firstly, I wasn't trying to impress you. It's not something high up on my to do list actually. Secondly, Its not name calling, its calling a fact that this board his its little cliques and gangs. as pointed out in the xtreme thread. plus the fact you put across the same arguements as Kizmet, thats not being an individual. Its very sheep-like to me. it's an observation not a name calling exercise.


I took over? One small paragraph is a take over? Dang I'm good. :D I easily could have said more ;)


as I said before, you come in and suddenly it's your fight, thats trying to take over. if two ppl are fighting in the street over a topic, do you suddenly walk up to them and interject just cos you have an opinion on it? I think not, so don't do it on a message board.

may I also say, XR's point seems to be she would like others opinions on this topic some nice fresh input and or insight would be nice for a change.

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by f4faith
Yes you do care or you wouldn't have had to respond to her post to complain about it or mine. And you complained about responses you might get in your first post. You can say that you don't but your responses do not back the words up. You keep saying you want a different opinion? What would that be then if you don't care who responds?
I responded to her post because she responded to mine--I don't think that's unreasonable. I wasn't going to ignore it, just as you aren't ignoring mine. You might not give a crap about what I think, but that isn't going to stop you from replying.
My "responses do not back the words up"? Translation? Just because you apparently can't comprehend my posts doesn't mean I'm not backing them up.
No - the idea behind a message board is to hear opinions - they are not required to be ones you've not heard before if no one has anything new to say to the same question asked before. If you got a different one then swell but it is not a given. You are not required to have a different opinion and neither is anyone else.
Oohh, ok. I see that my use of the forum is apparently incorrect. Again, I apologize for seeking new ideas. :rolleyes:
You may as well say that I'm not allowed to hope for or look forward to varying responses. That way we can all just be one big blissfully ignorant group of people with the same opinions on every subject.
Beginning to see what Iceman was saying about sheep...

[Kizmet]

Okay, let's stick strictly to the kiss.

I've know people who enjoy flirting even when they're in a committed relationship, sometimes it gets misconstruded. At which point the person whom I know best who does this simply points to his wedding ring and stops flirting with that person, because they misunderstood his intent, and because he has no intention of going far enough to upset his wife. To me those conversations have the same feel as the conversation between Gambit and Storm. He didn't mean for that kiss to become anything more. Storm took it too seriously. It doesn't seem like a huge deal.

Storm being naked is not Gambit's fault. Given her ability to create a swim suit out of thin air her decision to go skinny dipping seems a little strange to me personally, but then Storm's not supposed to have much body modesty. Was Gambit supposed to run off and hide his eyes when Storm started stripping? Make a huge deal out of it when it's been established in the past that Storm doesn't usually act like being nude is a prelude to sex.

[Mizzarc]

Hey at least we are talking about the art anymore.

Now I don't want to come up as a Gambit Apologist, even though i do like him more than i do Rogue, but let me make this point.

Actually Rogue fans answer me this, was Rogue ever written better than she was During Sal run on this book? I always like Rogue, but i feel she has finally come of age. Now let me preference this by saying i didn't start reading the Books until Blue/Gold started but i have read every major cross over prior to the start of the blue and Gold teams. Thank God For TPBs. You guys keep telling that Rogue is some Great X-man, but when did it happen? Maybe i missed it? I just didn't see it. Please give me some examples, because i would love to go back and read it. Back to this Rogue Gambit topic.

Alot of you guys have mentioned, Well my (girl/boy)friend would never put up with something like this. If i treate her the way, Gambit Treats Rogue she would have left me. Okay thatis a good point, but how many times are they people out there that get abuse by the person they love and stay with them? This is not a rare occurance and it happens often. People don't always make the proper decision when they are in love. Sometimes they only want to believe the best in that person and even though their significant other may treat them bad, they don't want to believe they are a bad person. So this is what Rogue could be going through.

Remember one thing about Gambit people is one of his mutant powers, which is very rarely talked about, is his ablitly to Charm people. Yeah I know they have supposivly loss their powers and i have read the newest issue (and maybe something has changed), but don't you think maybe just maybe his mutant power is partially at work with Rogue.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
no, suddenly you appear and start making essay like posts in the middle of a conversation between 2 other posters. thats sticking your nose in.

No that is responding to her post - it had nothing to do with Kizmet or their discussion until she got upset that anyone else disagree with her. Or can't one join in a discussion ?

plus the fact you put across the same arguements as Kizmet, thats not being an individual. Its very sheep-like to me.

You can have the very same ideas on one subject as Xtreme Rogue (you have generally said exactly what she said )but then any one else who might have similar ideas to another is sheep? :rolleyes:

One thing I do agree with X-treme Rogue on about this issue (being that the issue in question anyway not the previous one) is the Paquin movie posters. I feel it's totally taken any importance Rogue had in pickign this name out and makes her just seem like a bit over obssessed Anna fan. Doesn't rogue like other movies.

it's an observation not a name calling exercise.

no it's name calling - you did it to be belittling because we don't agree with her.

as I said before, you come in and suddenly it's your fight,

Since when is it a "fight"? It's a discussion on a discussion board. I can say my mind. i've certainly had more posts where I disagree with Kizmet (and actually noted in this one I didn't agree with her about Rogue right now) than I've seen you disagree with you "sig buddy".

may I also say, XR's point seems to be she would like others opinions on this topic some nice fresh input and or insight would be nice for a change.

And there is nothing wrong with wanting it - but that does not mean she should "demand" it - which is what she's been doing. Her stand has been - I want a new opinion because I don't like what I've heard before - maybe there is no "new opinion" as everyone has already said their peace. People post what they think - if it;s not "new" to her that does not mean that it is not their opinion or that there is a "new one" to be had.

Originally posted by Mizzarc
Actually Rogue fans answer me this, was Rogue ever written better than she was During Sal run on this book?

Rogue's best time prior to now in my opinion was her very first year as an X-Man when she joined the team and had to prove she meant to keep her part of her bargain with Xavier. I personally do not consider the Australia period where she was just happy for no reason when she still couldn't control her power to be her better time before (thought some do) then as she did really very little with herself. The fact that she realized this in the 90s didn't bother me. It bothered me she still did very little with herself when she did realize it.

Alot of you guys have mentioned, Well my (girl/boy)friend would never put up with something like this. If i treate her the way, Gambit Treats Rogue she would have left me.

Would you please give an example or are you talking about the kiss? What has he "done" to her recently? Or do you have no problem with her kissing Bishop for basically similar reasons? As noted if my boyfriend did some of the things Rogue's done to Gambit in the past too - i wouldn't have taken it. But this is soap opera comics not a place where people can't absorb feelings from each other or are at the whim of every writer who comes in and has a change of direction. I could make this exact staement about every relationship ever protrayed in comics - there is not a one that hasn't had instances where what was done came across as poorly handled. I can't even begin to go into the decades of love triangle between Scott/ Jean/Logan (now Emma) and they are the X-Men premier couple.

but don't you think maybe just maybe his mutant power is partially at work with Rogue.

No being that she has left him over the years way more than he left her. If Gambit's "charm" power was that strong, then the X-Men wouldn't distrust him so or treat him poorly in the first place. Just note that Gambit's supposed charm power has yet to actually be proven to be a power as well - it may just be he's good at talking to people under stress.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by f4faith


You can have the very same ideas on one subject as Xtreme Rogue (you have generally said exactly what she said )but then any one else who might have similar ideas to another is sheep? :rolleyes:

I haven't once made any specific points about Gambit, so saying that I am making the same points as XR is stupid.

no it's name calling - you did it to be belittling because we don't agree with her.

That's your opinion, don't tell me what I was saying or thinking thank you. I don't agree with a lot of people, but I will make a observation when the people I don't agree with just all say the same thing over and over.




And there is nothing wrong with wanting it - but that does not mean she should &quot;demand&quot; it - which is what she's been doing. Her stand has been - I want a new opinion because I don't like what I've heard before - maybe there is no &quot;new opinion&quot; as everyone has already said their peace. People post what they think - if it;s not &quot;new&quot; to her that does not mean that it is not their opinion or that there is a &quot;new one&quot; to be had.

Demanding it?? who's posts are you reading? what I saw was a post that Kizmet chose to reply to in the same old fashion as always. It's XRs given right to defend herself by stating that she was looking for other peoples fresh views, not the same old arguement from the same old people. Never once did she try to censor or stop anyone from talking. She basically said she had heard Kizmet before and wanted others to respond. That's not a crime, that's wanting others views rather than having the same old crap debate with the same person over and over.


i've certainly had more posts where I disagree with Kizmet (and actually noted in this one I didn't agree with her about Rogue right now) than I've seen you disagree with you "sig buddy".

You say I demean you by saying you are being sheep like. But now you wanna call XR and I "sig buddies" ?? Double standard there I'm thinking!

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Kizmet
To me those conversations have the same feel as the conversation between Gambit and Storm. He didn't mean for that kiss to become anything more. Storm took it too seriously. It doesn't seem like a huge deal.
I don't know about you, but I don't go around kissing my friends here and there as I have discussions with them. Especially the reason he kissed her--to make her "feel better"?! Wtf?! Because yeah, a kiss from him is going to solve all their political problems. Not to mention the fact that Storm even ADMITTED right there that Rogue would kill them if she knew. By doing it anyway, they more or less demonstrated that they don't care if it hurts her.
Storm being naked is not Gambit's fault. Given her ability to create a swim suit out of thin air her decision to go skinny dipping seems a little strange to me personally, but then Storm's not supposed to have much body modesty. Was Gambit supposed to run off and hide his eyes when Storm started stripping? Make a huge deal out of it when it's been established in the past that Storm doesn't usually act like being nude is a prelude to sex.
I never once said that Storm being naked was Gambit's fault. In fact, I admitted that my opinion of her sank. However, you did mention that Gambit stood in front of her and held her as a shield to prying eyes since she had no clothes on, but then you said that Storm doesn't have much "body modesty". If that's the case, then she wouldn't have been embarassed by them looking at her (as she clearly demonstrated that she wasn't), and wouldn't have needed Gambit in the first place. And the whole thing about forming clothes out of thin air just proves it even further. All of which is beside the fact that they were embracing eachother before they even turned their attention to the other people there.
People don't always make the proper decision when they are in love. Sometimes they only want to believe the best in that person and even though their significant other may treat them bad, they don't want to believe they are a bad person.
Agreed. But after two or three strikes, if the person just keeps committing the same act over and over, you'd think the other one would have enough sense to finally say "I'm not dealing with it". It's as much one's fault for putting up with it as it is the other's for doing what was done.
I can't even begin to go into the decades of love triangle between Scott/ Jean/Logan (now Emma) and they are the X-Men premier couple.
And you're absolutely right. None of that is any better than Rogue and Gambit, nor would I ever say that it is. In fact, it's even worse since they're married. But they aren't the topic of discussion here. Just because Scott and Jean are left out of the conversation doesn't mean I'm sympathetic towards their actions either, it's just that they aren't what's being debated.

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
I haven't once made any specific points about Gambit, so saying that I am making the same points as XR is stupid.

You haven't made the specific comments, but have made your feelings on this matter quite clear already through your constant use of general sweeping comments on you opinion of the Cajun's character.

That's your opinion, don't tell me what I was saying or thinking thank you. I don't agree with a lot of people, but I will make a observation when the people I don't agree with just all say the same thing over and over.

Being insulting is not a matter of opinion. As demonstrated by your calling what f4faith said 'stupid'.

Demanding it?? who's posts are you reading? what I saw was a post that Kizmet chose to reply to in the same old fashion as always. It's XRs given right to defend herself by stating that she was looking for other peoples fresh views, not the same old arguement from the same old people. Never once did she try to censor or stop anyone from talking. She basically said she had heard Kizmet before and wanted others to respond. That's not a crime, that's wanting others views rather than having the same old crap debate with the same person over and over.

If she wanted to hear only new opinions on this matter then she should have just ignored Kizmet. To then respond to Kizmet just reignites the same old arguement runninbg contrary to her stated purpose in posting in the first place.

It also begs the question: Why the Hell would I, as the third party want to hear you same opinion over and over again?

I can ignore it. Which is what you and XR should have done if you didn't want to talk to Kiz or F4.

You say I demean you by saying you are being sheep like. But now you wanna call XR and I &quot;sig buddies&quot; ?? Double standard there I'm thinking!

Given what is in you signature:

"Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind, And therefore is winged Cupid painted blind" to my darling XtremeRogue

I would say that characterization is quite accurate as it pertains to yourself.

[Kizmet]

I do know people who flirt because they think it makes people happy to feel desirable. Storm saying Rogue would kill them is where I think she's getting her wires crossed. Gambit and Rogue both kiss people and it doesn't seem like a big deal to either. I don't think she's kill him for just a kiss. Storm thought it was a lead in to something Rogue would be upset about, Gambit replies that it was just a kiss. I think Storm was over-reacting.

The whole nudity issue seems like such a gimick I can't quite take it seriously. The drawing with Storm and Gambit floating in mid air was on the web before the issue came out. It stirred up conversations and brought attention to the issue (I somehow doubt IK and CC were oblivious to how people would react to that image) but to me, the image taken on it's own implied a lot more than what actually happened.

Edit: Forgot this: The timing of the scene seemed a little weird too. It seemed like Strom was trying to get the attention of the political leaders with her actions with regard to the torando. So them showing up seems like something she should have expected and not the best time to go skinny dipping if she cared at all about anyone seeing her nude... only then she goes and gets dressed in an awful hurry when it actually happens.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by SuperMutant


You haven't made the specific comments, but have made your feelings on this matter quite clear already through your constant use of general sweeping comments on you opinion of the Cajun's character.

My opinion of the character is not the thing at question here. I never jumped into this conversation and began listing my likes/dislikes or whatever. weither or not you know my opinion or not is irrelevant because I didn't once go into the conversation here stating my opinions.


Being insulting is not a matter of opinion. As demonstrated by your calling what f4faith said 'stupid'.

I said her statement was stupid not her. so whats at question here?

.
quote:
You say I demean you by saying you are being sheep like. But now you wanna call XR and I "sig buddies" ?? Double standard there I'm thinking!


Given what is in you signature:

quote:
"Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind, And therefore is winged Cupid painted blind" to my darling XtremeRogue


I would say that characterization is quite accurate as it pertains to yourself.


Is it now a crime for me to have a message in my signature for my girlfriend ?
if the sig buddy is so-called "appropriate characterization," then the sheep comment is clearly appropriate as well since both comments were made as observations.

[Kizmet]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
I said her statement was stupid not her. get your facts right next time.


I suppose calling people sheep isn't insulting either. Not to mention pretty ridiculous give that f4faith and I have been on the oposite sides of debates fairly often.

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by SuperMutant
If she wanted to hear only new opinions on this matter then she should have just ignored Kizmet. To then respond to Kizmet just reignites the same old arguement runninbg contrary to her stated purpose in posting in the first place.
It also begs the question: Why the Hell would I, as the third party want to hear you same opinion over and over again?
I chose not to ignore Kizmet. That's MY decision. Just because you may feel it's ok to bring up an issue and then ignore people's responses doesn't mean I agree. Nothing is contrary to my purpose when I'm having a discussion with posters on a message board. That you're even attempting to attack the fact that I replied is laughable. Dear, what a horrendous action on my part!
The whole nudity issue seems like such a gimick I can't quite take it seriously.
If you can't take it seriously, then why even bother trying to defend Gambit holding her in the first place? :?
I do know people who flirt because they think it makes people happy to feel desirable.
Indeed. But then that's saying that the kiss was just a flirting thing, right? Because while I can see that some people would take it that way, to me, I've just never felt it was appropriate. I mean, sure, there are flirty kisses, but those are different from full-on ones, and that's how Gambit and Storm's kiss appeared to me.

[Kizmet]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
Indeed. But then that's saying that the kiss was just a flirting thing, right? Because while I can see that some people would take it that way, to me, I've just never felt it was appropriate. I mean, sure, there are flirty kisses, but those are different from full-on ones, and that's how Gambit and Storm's kiss appeared to me.

At this point we'd be arguing interpretation, which is pretty impossible ground for either to hold.

All I saw it as was flirting, but trying to argue it would be pointless.

As for defending Remy with regard to the nudity, I think it's forced in to the scene to affect the readers rather than being a natural part of the story. But I am aware that it's part of the basis for argue that the kiss is different from Rogue laying one on Bishop. But I've heard the reason nude beaches are embarassing is that people just don't make a big deal of it, so I can sort of see just acting like Storm's behavior isn't strange rather than making a big deal out of it... Still stripping when she had to be expecting the Government people to show up strikes me as being truly bizarre.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by Kizmet


I suppose calling people sheep isn't insulting either. Not to mention pretty ridiculous give that f4faith and I have been on the oposite sides of debates fairly often.

And that is relivent in this instant how?
you think people always agree or disagree on every topic? no my observation on the sheep theme was the she simply was tagging onto your points of arguement, not adding any new facts etc to be used in the debate.

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
My opinion of the character is not the thing at question here. I never jumped into this conversation and began listing my likes/dislikes or whatever. weither or not you know my opinion or not is irrelevant because I didn't once go into the conversation here stating my opinions.

It was at question since you had just claimed you have not made your opinion known, when you had in fact done so.


I said her statement was stupid not her. so whats at question here?

You have claimed you have not been insulting when in fact you have said many thing insulting towards people in this thread.

dry your eyes and stop your crying.

They had a healthy debate going till you stuck your unwanted oar in

Its very sheep-like to me

You have dodged actually directly insulting other people to avoid warning points, but you have nonetheless treated your feelow posters with very little respect. So don't expect people to treat you with anything other than a similar level of respect.

Is it now a crime for me to have a message in my signature for my girlfriend ?
if the sig buddy is so-called &quot;appropriate characterization,&quot; then the sheep comment is clearly appropriate as well since both comments were made as observations.

No it is not. But you just claimed it was somehow wrong for you to be called a sig buddy. It is not an observation, it happens to be a fact, and unlike the 'sheep' comment, has no negative connotation.


Originally posted by XtremeRogue

I chose not to ignore Kizmet. That's MY decision. Just because you may feel it's ok to bring up an issue and then ignore people's responses doesn't mean I agree. Nothing is contrary to my purpose when I'm having a discussion with posters on a message board. That you're even attempting to attack the fact that I replied is laughable. Dear, what a horrendous action on my part!

I didn't suggest anything of the kind. I said that it was wrong to claim that you shouldn't be subjected to the same old arguements when by your own decision you join in those same old arguements. If you choose to reply to Kizmet you can do so. But then don't complain about having an arguement then.

you think people always agree or disagree on every topic? no my observation on the sheep theme was the she simply was tagging onto your points of arguement, not adding any new facts etc to be used in the debate.

@Xtreme Iceman: Since you have not added any facts to the debate based on what you said here:

I haven't once made any specific points about Gambit, so saying that I am making the same points as XR is stupid.

What are you doing here then? My I ask: Are you a sheep?

[f4faith]

Originally posted by XtremeRogue
I don't know about you, but I don't go around kissing my friends here and there as I have discussions with them.

Maybe you don't but not everyone is that that way. I do indeed kiss friends and I have over-seas friends who kiss on the lips. How many times has Logan kissed Storm now and they've yet to end up in bed. CC seems to like physical interaction.

Especially the reason he kissed her--to make her &quot;feel better&quot;?! Wtf?! Because yeah, a kiss from him is going to solve all their political problems.

They were not talking about the political problems - they were talking about Storm's health and how she might be wrecking it and that she needed to take better care of herself.

Not to mention the fact that Storm even ADMITTED right there that Rogue would kill them if she knew.

How does what Storm thought have any affect on what Gambit intended? His response was that Rogue had no such worry (ie that Storm was wrong) nor would kill them - you are fostering Storm's response off on Gambit. What Storm thought is irrelevant - that is Storm's issue not Gambit's (or Rogue's for that matter). I didn't see Gambit offering to sleep with Storm so what is Rogue suppose to be so mad about? - the question one would like to ask Storm. Rogue can kiss Bishop for fun but Gambit can't kiss Storm to make her feel better? She's suppose to be mad Storm has no clothes on?

By doing it anyway, they more or less demonstrated that they don't care if it hurts her.

Anymore than if she would care if wrapping her legs around Bishop and kissing him would hurt Gambit (which she shouldn't because she was not trying to hurt Gambit). He did it for one reason and Storm took it as another. If he wanted to make it out to be such a big deal - why lean down to kiss her while she was in the water? Why not just pull her out and then wrap his arms around her nakedness and then really kiss her? - heck of lot more suggestive. That Storm came out thinking about what Rogue has and clinging to Gambit for support (she is suppose to be still injured that is what this whole moment was still pointing out that she's still in danger of doing serious damage) is again not part of the same issue

I never once said that Storm being naked was Gambit's fault. In fact, I admitted that my opinion of her sank. However, you did mention that Gambit stood in front of her and held her as a shield to prying eyes since she had no clothes on, but then you said that Storm doesn't have much &quot;body modesty&quot;. If that's the case, then she wouldn't have been embarassed by them looking at her (as she clearly demonstrated that she wasn't), and wouldn't have needed Gambit in the first place.

I'm not sure your point - are you saying that Storm is embarassed by not having clothes since she suddenly decided to put them on? I took that to mean she felt the other group (unlike Gambit or another X-Man) would be embarrassed not her (ie Gambit was not shielding Storm from them to protect Storm but to save them embarassment - which is a reasonable assumption as they are not X-Men use to her "not dressing") - but I agree that seemed unreasonable to undress in the first place since she - not Gambit -knew what she showed them and had to know they would come looking for her but then again none of this is Gambit's problem.

All of which is beside the fact that they were embracing each other before they even turned their attention to the other people there.

And Sam was embracing Rogue to comfort her. There is no difference except Storm's state of attire which has already been shown years ago, long before Gambit, to be a non-issue for her friends since she supposedly does it frequently. Would this be an issue if she was clothed? Storm is not suppose to be looked at strickly through western morals. And if so then how would it be different from the simple things Rogue has done recently which I don't see as out of character or malicious either?

But they aren't the topic of discussion here.

But they are to an extent as are all comic couples - you want Gambit and Rogue and assumedly by extension to be like real ones like you - which I can't agree. There are issues (like the need for exciting story and changing writers and the fact that stories much be shown in snippets over decades to deal with - it's never going to be totally in the bounds of how a normal person would react because frankly if Rogue was a normal person she should have kicked Xavier's a$$ ages ago for not living up to his side of the bargain and basically ignoring her problems with her powers as long as she was reasonably ok (and sometimes not) but then again where would some of Rogue's conflict and struggle over the years have come from if she did that 15 years ago like a real person would have.

Originally posted by SuperMutant
I would say that characterization is quite accurate as it pertains to yourself.

Thanks. It was just a statement of fact as it is in his signature.

[Iceman Xtreme]

Originally posted by SuperMutant

@Xtreme Iceman: Since you have not added any facts to the debate based on what you said here:



What are you doing here then? My I ask: Are you a sheep?


I simply havent added any facts because XR has said enough for both of us in my view. Plus the fact no matter what facts one writes about Gambit and his treatment of Rogue on this forum, the other side of the coin wil always dismiss them and makes excuses such as Kizmet and F4's explaination of the "innocent" kiss with Storm. That's about as innocent as a convicted mass murderer who has confessed his sins.
If I want to add facts I will do so if and when I choose. I won't just rehash the same tired point like some other people have done.
What am I doing here also you ask? well it's a message board, I have every right to be here. Plus the fact I won't let three people gang up on my girlfriend and try to force their views onto her. If that makes me a bad guy then, oh well. I'm a bad guy.

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
Plus the fact I won't let three people gang up on my girlfriend and try to force their views onto her. If that makes me a bad guy then, oh well. I'm a bad guy.

Fine by me then.

[Chris Claremont]

To One & all:

Gloriosky, and I thought *I* was Legend for having No Sense of Humor!

Or, to put events in their *proper* context:

"You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss
A smile is just a smile
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by ... "

:) :) :)

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by Chris Claremont
To One &amp; all:

Gloriosky, and I thought *I* was Legend for having No Sense of Humor!

Or, to put events in their *proper* context:

&quot;You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss
A smile is just a smile
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by ... &quot;

:) :) :)

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

Good song, hope it applies to Rogue and Remy's relationship

[XtremeRogue]

Originally posted by Kizmet
At this point we'd be arguing interpretation, which is pretty impossible ground for either to hold.
It's been my interpretation from the beginning, so....
I didn't suggest anything of the kind. I said that it was wrong to claim that you shouldn't be subjected to the same old arguements when by your own decision you join in those same old arguements. If you choose to reply to Kizmet you can do so.
I didn't say I shouldn't be subjected to them, I said (repeatedly) that they weren't what I was seeking. There's a difference. But thanks for your permission, I'm glad I'm now allowed to reply to others. :rolleyes: (*insert sarcastic "you're welcome" from SuperMutant*)
Maybe you don't but not everyone is that that way. I do indeed kiss friends and I have over-seas friends who kiss on the lips. How many times has Logan kissed Storm now and they've yet to end up in bed. CC seems to like physical interaction.
Logan isn't in a serious relationship with someone else when he kisses Storm. Then again, forget that--Logan has slept around with enough women that I can't even count them on my fingers, so I'd hardly say he's a good example.
They were not talking about the political problems - they were talking about Storm's health and how she might be wrecking it and that she needed to take better care of herself.
Ah, ok. Then allow me to rephrase: a kiss from Gambit is going to solve all her health problems. :LOL:
How does what Storm thought have any affect on what Gambit intended? His response was that Rogue had no such worry (ie that Storm was wrong) nor would kill them - you are fostering Storm's response off on Gambit. What Storm thought is irrelevant - that is Storm's issue not Gambit's (or Rogue's for that matter).
Storm's actions have nothing to do with my dislike of Gambit's. They didn't make much sense to me, sure, but that's a discussion of it's own. I don't agree with the way Gambit kissed her, however, nor do I agree with his reasoning as to why. End of discussion. You can disagree with me or not, it doesn't matter--not going to change my dislike of it.
Rogue can kiss Bishop for fun but Gambit can't kiss Storm to make her feel better?
She wasn't kissing him "for fun". I love how everyone just neglects the fact that Rogue can't touch others. Gambit has that luxury, so it's obviously not going to affect him the way it affects Rogue. I shouldn't even have to bother pointing out the vastly different contexts of both kisses.
If he wanted to make it out to be such a big deal - why lean down to kiss her while she was in the water? Why not just pull her out and then wrap his arms around her nakedness and then really kiss her? - heck of lot more suggestive.
Because she interrupted and started talking about Rogue. I highly doubt he'd do anything more after that. Not to mention a certain interlude with the other political figures.
I'm not sure your point - are you saying that Storm is embarassed by not having clothes since she suddenly decided to put them on?
No, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that if she was indeed in such need of shielding by Gambit (because of embarassment), as Kizmet implied, it's contradictory to say that she's modest. If she's modest about her body and doesn't care to flaunt it, she wouldn't have needed someone to hide her.
Gambit was not shielding Storm from them to protect Storm but to save them embarassment - which is a reasonable assumption as they are not X-Men use to her "not dressing"
lol, you make it sound like she just casually walks around the institute in the nude or something. But although you say that he was shielding Storm to protect THEM, that's not the interpretation I was responding to.
And Sam was embracing Rogue to comfort her. There is no difference except Storm's state of attire which has already been shown years ago, long before Gambit, to be a non-issue for her friends since she supposedly does it frequently.
Are you people for real? Honestly. Yeah actually there's a huge difference between Sam & Rogue's embrace and Storm & Gambit's. If you're going to deny it in all seriousness and analyze all the philosophical aspects of Storm's nonwestern morals then you're going off on a complete tangent.
But they are to an extent as are all comic couples - you want Gambit and Rogue and assumedly by extension to be like real ones like you - which I can't agree. There are issues (like the need for exciting story and changing writers and the fact that stories much be shown in snippets over decades to deal with - it's never going to be totally in the bounds of how a normal person would react
If that's the case, then I must not be able to ever dislike anything that occurs in comics, because hey, there are behind the scenes issues.
That is no excuse for what occurred, nor is your assumption that I want them to be like real people correct. You're more or less debating with me about the fact that I'm not considering Scott and Jean in my discussion and that is absolutely ridiculous.

[dredweezul]

:rolleyes: Are we STILL talking about that kiss!?!?!? or who is a whore this week????? this is so why I don't like the entire R&R relationship, and the feverish importance that the fans put on it. Sorry, but between the hideous bunch of slop that the 90's heaped on these characters and the incesant bickering that everyone spends weeks and months scrapping over every little detail, you've all beat their relationship, as it were, to death for me.

Remy has always struck me as a rather shiftless individual, and something of a jerk, tho' most of that is not CC's fault. I guess I can't love all of the characters, even if I want to. I hope that if Chris gets to write him long enough, I'll find more facets of the mud bug to like. Maybe he should get a Catahoula leopard dog...it's the state dog of LA and they are beautiful (I know, because I have