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View Full Version : TOP 70 DC MOMENTS, PART 1: #70-51


Joel Phillips
Feb 2, 2005, 02:15 pm
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/Top70DCMoments1.jpg" align=left border=0 alt="Top 70 DC Moments">Part 1: #70-51

Written By: Nick Costanzo, Raul Grau, Alex Groff, Jon Hancock, Al Harahap, Matt Lazorwitz, Jordan T. Maxwell, Dylan McKay and Joel Phillips
Edited By: Joel Phillips
Additional Graphical Assistance: Omar A. Safi & Al Harahap


What is a truly great MOMENT? Is it something that touches us? Something that shocks us? Something that changes the characters forever? Is it a milestone, a mega-event, or just one perfect panel?

We think it’s all of the above, and so much more. We think it’s marrying the girl of your dreams, or finding out what you really are for the first time. We think it’s the best day or the worst night of your life. We think it’s an etiquette lesson, a first kiss, or a quiet stroll. And that’s just the bottom 20.

So without further ado, the ComiX-Fan staff’s picks for the 70 Greatest Moments in DC History, beginning here with picks #70-51:

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#70: Booster Gold Saves the World… Really!

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/70.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Justice League Unlimited (Animated Series)
Writer: Andrew Kreisberg

Booster Gold is a loser. A loser amongst men who wear tights, one whose name so small that he's constantly confused with the Green Lantern (probably for no other reason than they both have colors in their name). Compounding his problems with the rest of the league is a vastly misplaced arrogance and his desire to use superheroics to make a name for himself rather than work for the common good. So it's hardly surprising that when the league faces the almost unstoppable force of the sorcerer Mordru... Gold is put on crowd control. However, Booster manages to uncover an even more pressing danger assaulting the city: a human black hole being chased down by a very attractive female scientist. Through a mix of courage and bumbling luck, Booster Gold manages the seemingly impossible task of saving the world, and for all his hard work... he gets castrated for leaving his crowd duties. "The Greatest Story Never Told" is an episode that perfectly mixes the action, as well as the absurdity, that makes the Justice League so appealing. Well, when it's done right, anyway. Add the hilarious voice talents of Tom Everett Scott as Booster Gold, and you have a formula for one of the best animated renditions of a DC Comic ever made. Funny as hell, too.

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#69: The New Gods Sacrifice

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/69.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: New Gods (v1) #7
Writer/Artist: Jack Kirby

For as long as they had existed, New Genesis and Apokolips, the planets of the New Gods, had been at war. Both Izaya (AKA Highfather, the ruler of New Genesis) and Darkseid (ruler of Apokolips) knew that peace was necessary, although for wholly different reasons. A solution became possible when both leaders had sons born at the same time. In the time honored tradition of war pacts, family was used to seal the deal: Izaya gave his son, Scott Free (AKA Mister Miracle), to Darkseid in exchange for Darkseid's son, Orion. In the short run, Darkseid knew he was victorious… Izaya made a far greater sacrifice, both men knew that Izaya would give Orion an enriched environment to grow up, while Scott Free would, like all the denizens of Apokolips, be used for Darkseid's amusement. But what Darksieid could not have known was how much damage it would do him in the long run, for two heroes were born where there likely would have been none. For Orion, Izaya's teachings gained him the ability to overcome the blood of Darkeid coursing through his veins. Born of hate and taught of love, Orion has become the one superhero able to be used as an allegory for the nature vs. nurture debate of human development. Conversely, Scott Free was brutally forced to learn every evil, known and unknown, in an all too personal manner, and in the process, learned everything that he must fight against, becoming Mr. Miracle, the DCU's greatest escape artist and champion of freedom.

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#68: Gotham- No Man’s Land

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/68.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Batman #562, Detective Comics #729
Writer: Chuck Dixon
Artists: Jim Aparo and Will Rosado

Living in Gotham City was never easy, between the corruption and the psychotic criminals. But after countless prison escapes, two plagues, and a massive earthquake, the U.S. Government decided to cut its losses. Hearings were held in Washington, deciding whether or not to simply cut Gotham off from the rest of the country, declaring it a No Man’s Land. Even with the passionate speeches of Gotham Mayor Marion Grange and the city’s first citizen, Bruce Wayne, the government decided to blow the bridges and tunnels. Many people fled Gotham, but just as many wanted to stay in their homes. And so began the No Man’s Land, a year long epic that ran through all the Batman family titles. It was one of the most intricate crossover events DC ever attempted, and one of the most successful. All of Batman’s amazing rogues’ gallery appeared, and his entire supporting cast took part in reclaiming Gotham. The event catalyzed stories that continue to appear today, and also featured the first major Batman works by Greg Rucka, who would become one of the key voices in Batman’s adventures throughout the past five years. The end result would see Gotham’s face changed, both in-story and creatively, rebuilt and redesigned for the 21st century.

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#67: Boy Wonder Defined

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/67.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: A Lonely Place of Dying, Batman #440-442, The New Titans #60-61.
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artists: Jim Aparo, Tom Grummett and George Perez

After the death of Jason Todd, the second Robin, Batman descended into a sort of madness. He went on a rampage against the world of crime, exacting a much more violent brand of justice. Even attempts by those closest to him, his trusty butler Alfred Pennyworth and Nightwing (Dick Grayson, the first Robin), to clear his mind fell on deaf ears. With Two-Face at large, Batman sought to capture him, but recklessly, thus making himself vulnerable. A young genius named Tim Drake deduced the identities and histories of "Batman and Robin." He approached Nightwing and divulged his knowledge, stating that Batman always needs a Robin as a constant reminder of the youth and innocence he had before his parents' death. When Two-Face entrapped Batman and Nightwing, Tim Drake took Jason Todd's costume and became the third Robin to help Batman not only in crime fighting, but more importantly in wrestling his demons. For years, the figure of Robin had been belittled, leading up to the fan vote for Jason Todd's demise. With this, Marv Wolfman, through Tim Drake, has justified and immortalized Robin's place in the Batman mythos.

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#66: Hal Jordan is Parallax

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/66.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Zero Hour #4-0, Green Lantern #0
Writers: Dan Jurgens and Ron Marz
Artists: Dan Jurgens, Jerry Ordway, Darryl Banks and Romeo Tanghal

Sadly, Zero Hour will be remembered for what it is, and not for what it contained. The list of flaws contained in those five issues (ignoring the seeming hundreds of issues that crossed over with no real purpose or effect) could fill a book. Incomprehensible plot devices, unnecessary guest appearances, uninteresting henchmen all combined into the telling of a story that many claim simply repeats Crisis on Infinite Earths. However, at the heart of this story, buried though it may be by dreck and spandex cameos, is the story of Hal Jordan's attempt to fix the problems he had created. Jordan-- now calling himself Parallax-- enlists the help of Extant, a time traveler who happens to be Waverider from the future (except that... Waverider is already from the future....ow, my brain) to help him destroy the universe. Not because he’s a villain, but because he’s troubled by the problems of the universe. His goal is to create a new multiverse, where everything is perfect. There will be a world where Barbara Gordon wasn’t paralyzed; a world where Coast City wasn’t destroyed. The dead would be raised—including the Corps he felt shame over murdering—and everyone could live happily ever after. It’s a truly noble idea that can only lead to failure. Much like the Magneto of old, Parallax’s story really gives you a sense of someone who has suffered horribly, someone who has the best intentions and yet, in the end, someone who is still a villain. Because of the unnecessary plots involving the Spectre, Damage, Extant, the JSA (and why are a group of geriatrics fighting a villain who controls time, I ask?) and Guy Gardner Warrior, the heart of the story is lost except for choice moments. However, the pain Oliver Queen suffers when he is forced to shoot his best friend is heartbreaking; and in Green Lantern #0, Marz captures Jordan perfectly: a man who has lost everything, and in trying so hard to heal that loss. He strives for the impossible, only to find himself further from his goal, further from salvation, than when he began. Ignoring the failures of this story, the character study at the heart of Zero Hour is perhaps the most poignant look at power and responsibility that the DC Universe has seen.

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#65: Mr. Hyde’s Etiquette Lesson

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/65.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (v2) #5
Writer: Alan Moore
Artist: Kevin O’Neill

It was an age of refinement and etiquette, an era of culture and manners, a time when Martians invaded Earth and the only hope of stopping them lay with the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. But when Earth’s last hope consists of monsters, killers and criminals…well, things go a bit differently. Having been discovered by Mina Murray in the midst of betraying the League, Hawley Griffin (the Invisible Man) beats and humiliates her, infuriating the monstrous Edward Hyde due to his strange affection for Mina (“…in this world, alone, I do not hate you…and alone in this world, you do not hate me”). He swears bloody vengeance. He beats his fists against cold alien steel. He…puts on a tuxedo and heads to a museum. Strolls through. Sits down. Reads the paper. And reveals (as we glimpsed in the first volume) that his enhanced senses can see Griffin, cowering in a corner. Hyde calmly walks over, breaks Griffin’s leg, talks about the gorgeous view of London, slams his face through a window, tells him he’s “cross” with him for his “uncivil” treatment of Miss Murray, comments on the finery of their opulent surroundings…and then drops his pants and proceeds to rape Griffin to death. Since Griffin’s betrayal, the readers eagerly expected and awaited Hyde to take his vengeance. But the severity and sadistic nature of it, juxtaposed against Hyde’s mockery of the genteel and proper attitude of the age, made the moment all the more shocking, horrific, memorable…and hilarious. It also marks the first time in a comic book, or any medium, where one character out of Victorian literature fatally sodomized another. Truly historic.

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#64: Apollo & Midnighter's First Kiss

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/64.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: The Authority (v1) #7
Writer: Warren Ellis
Artist: Bryan Hitch

True love is a beautiful thing, something that can't be confined to any manner of convention. In the realm of mainstream comics, the couple that most clearly represents this notion is the relationship of the Authority's Apollo and Midnighter. On the surface, it almost looks like some kind of perverse joke: two characters, both of whom are loosely based on Superman and Batman, falling in love? They can't be serious. And yet, at the moment their physical relationship is confirmed, it's not meant as a moment of gratuitous shock. Instead, we see the most tender moment between two characters who, up until this point in the series, had been violent killing machines. Midnighter, for all his tough, self-proclaimed "bastard" behavior, is nearly in tears as he attempts to stop Apollo from risking his life against an invading ShiftShip armada. His fears are quelled with a single kiss, and as usual the good guys (as good as the Authority gets, anyway) save the day. Since then, Apollo and Midnighter have never been shy about their relationship, nor have they shoved it down our throats. There's never been a special "gay rights" issue of the Authority, or some other way in which this couple has had to fight for their existence. Because really, no couple should ever have to fight for the right to love each other. For a pair of superheroes who do so much fighting in every other element of their lives, it's truly refreshing, and quite touching, to see them take solace in each other's arms at the end of the day.

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#63: Tim Hunter’s Stroll for the Ages

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/63.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Books of Magic (v1) #1
Writer: Neil Gaiman
Artist: John Bolton

In the beginning, there was nothingness. Before the birth of creation, there was simply the void, without sound or light or existence of any kind, save a young boy and a concerned stranger. Tim Hunter, a lanky youth with an amazing destiny before him, was witnessing the dawn of time, the start of the universe, and, of course, the magic behind it all. He saw the angels fall, the seas rise up, and the spell casters disguise themselves as heroes. But, more importantly, we saw it all too, reflected through the eyes of an innocent and spiraling from the mind of Neil Gaiman. The man who dreamed up Morpheus here refashions a universe, built upon a foundation of mysticism. Sure, we may learn that magic has a price, but, thankfully, wonder is still free.

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#62: The Coyote Gospel

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/62.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Animal Man #5
Writer: Grant Morrison
Artists: Chas Truog and Doug Hazlewood

Originally intended as a four-issue mini-series, Animal Man began with C-list superhero Buddy Baker dealing with his home life, new developments in his powers and animal rights issues. But then, DC asked fledgling Scottish writer Grant Morrison to continue on the series. So, what do you do when you’ve told your story and are asked for more? Why, you spin out a post modern tale that casts Wile E. Coyote as a Christ figure, forever resurrecting himself, and examine issues of religion and suffering of course! Longing to end the eternal violence in his own cartoon reality, Crafty Coyote approaches God who tells Crafty he will do so, but that the peace will be bought by Crafty’s own suffering in “the second reality,” “the hell above.” The “real” world. Crafty is run over by trucks, knocked off of cliffs, smashed by boulders, blown to smithereens…and slowly, painfully, knits himself back together each time. Crafty finds Animal Man and hands him his gospel, a scroll of paper telling his tragic tale. Or at least it would, if it weren’t all just indistinct scribbling. A man who thinks Crafty is the Devil and the cause of all the suffering in his life shoots him with a silver bullet, forged from a cross his dead lover had given him. And so Crafty falls, with a desert crossroads as his asphalt Calvary, dying for his lost world…as God’s hand dips into the panel to paint in the red of his blood. Beyond the sheer quality and innovation of the story, this issue marked a distinct departure from the first four, setting the tone for not only the rest of Morrison’s legendary run but also helping to develop and popularize his unique writing style.

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#61: JLA meet the new Crime Syndicate

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/61.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: JLA: Earth 2 GN
Writer: Grant Morrison
Artist: Frank Quitely

Too often the criticism is leveled at DC’s pantheon of icons that they’re too squeaky clean and one dimensional. The Crime Syndicate of Amerika show just what would happen if they weren’t. A concept originally thought up long before the crisis featured villainous copies of the five JLA members. These characters were typical of the Golden Age in that they were over the top and not that threatening. So when Grant Morrison re-imagined them, they naturally became much more intriguing. A drug addicted Flash, brash Green Lantern, man eating Wonder Woman, vengeance driven Batman and fascist Superman showed just how lucky the DCU is to have its icons on the side of the good guys. The meeting of two identical and yet diametrically opposed teams was a fantastic revitalization of a classic concept coupled with a truly intriguing parallel universe… something that there aren’t nearly enough of in comics nowadays.

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#60: Hal Jordan’s Blackest Night

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/60.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Green Lantern (v2) #50
Writer: Ron Marz
Artist: Daryl Banks

Hal Jordan was one of the paragons of the Silver Age of comics. He was a pilot who took on the noble mantle of a Green Lantern and did his best to defend the Earth and all the cosmos from threats ranging from the rogue Green Lantern Sinestro to the anti-matter Weaponers of Qward. But every man can only take so much. When Jordan’s hometown of Coast City was destroyed by the Cyborg and Mongul, Jordan broke the edicts of the patrons of the GL Corps, the Guardians of the Universe, and attempted to use his ring to recreate it. When they attempted to censure him, Jordan began heading toward Oa to make his reckoning. The Green Lanterns attempted to stop him, and he ruthlessly beat them and stripped them of their rings. When Jordan arrived at Oa, Kilowog, his old instructor, waited, and was handily beaten. And the final line of defense the Guardians could muster was Sinestro, who had been imprisoned. Jordan killed both Sinestro and Kilowog, and went forward to drain the Central Power Battery and slaughter the Guardians. These events have divided fandom for well over a decade. Many believed that Hal had been given a bum’s rush to make way for a hotter, younger GL. Others thought Hal had lived out his time. One way or the other, the debate has never quieted, even after Hal’s death and resurrection as the Spectre, and even his return as Green Lantern, an event happening even as you read this, may not quiet all the voices.

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#59: Mr. and Mrs. Superman

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/59.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Superman: The Wedding Album
Writers: Dan Jurgens, Karl Kesel, David Michelinie, Louise Simonson and Roger Stern
Artists: Jon Bogdanove, John Byrne, Nick Cardy, Ron Frenz, Kerry Gammill, Dick Giordano, Tom Grummett, Stuart Immonen, Dan Jurgans, Gil Kane, Barry Kitson, Jim Mooney, Al Plastino, Paul Ryan and Curt Swan

Before Mulder & Scully, before Ross & Rachel, there was Lois & Clark, the classic "will they or won't they" couple of pop culture. Setting foot in Metropolis, the dashing Superman caught the curiosity of sassy reporter Lois Lane, who in turn caught the attention of rookie Clark Kent. Lois easily swooned over the Man of Steel's heroics, and he willingly received her affections. The problem? He wanted her to like him as a person, not an icon, and thus began Clark's wooing to beat Superman in winning over Lois' heart. After titillating fans with this courtship for exactly 50 years, DC finally allowed Lois to realize her attraction to her "human" friend Clark, culminating in an engagement. From there, theirs was a roller coaster relationship, even leading to a breakup due to the minimal time they could spend together and it hitting Lois that she had to share him with the world. Superman fans were polarized like never before, as it seemed like a regular return to status quo that relieved some yet upset others. But mere months later, DC Comics and the U.S. television channel ABC decided to surprise fans with a simultaneous wedding for Lois and Clark both on the comic page and the screen. While many have argued that this coming together have ruined the anticipation in the relationship, others have praised how well the two have progressed as characters. Regardless, it cannot be denied that this was a milestone event that has drastically changed them both. Do you, the fans, take this man and woman to be your lawfully wedded Super-couple? We do!

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#58: Hal Jordan’s Brightest Day

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/58.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Showcase #22
Writer: John Broome
Artist: Gil Kane

Hal Jordan was a hero, even before he put on a ring. In a time before John Glenn and Neil Armstrong, the world’s heroes were jet pilots, guys like Chuck Yaeger. And Hal Jordan was one of those men. And one day, while flying his jet, a mysterious green energy grabbed it and pulled it down. Landing near a broken space ship, Jordan found an alien named Abin Sur, part of an interplanetary police force known as the Green Lanterns. Hal had been called because of his fearlessness and honesty, and when asked to take on the mantle, Hal agreed, becoming the new Green Lantern of Sector 2814. These events would reverberate through the galaxy, giving the Corps its greatest member, one who would lead the Corps in its most dire hour; and its darkest villain, as Jordan would someday kill the Corps and their powerful benefactors, the Guardians of the Universe, while under the influence of the Parallax entity. Beyond that, the successful appearance of a new Green Lantern proved that the creation of a new Flash, who had already become a new property of note, was not a fluke. Hal Jordan became one of the pillars of the DCU, and without him the Green Lantern Corps, a now integral part of the cosmology of the universe, would never have been. And Hal remains popular to this day, spawning a major event mini-series in Green Lantern: Rebirth, and the one of the most anticipated new monthly series of 2005.

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#57: DC purchases Wildstorm Productions

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/57.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">Okay, quick crash course in comic book history. In 1992, seven artists broke away from Marvel to form their own company for creator owned works, Image. Each artist would create and own their work through their individual companies and studios, which all would exist as partners under Image. Jim Lee’s company was known both as Homage Studios and Aegis Entertainment, but then renamed Wildstorm Productions after his first two titles: WildC.A.T.s and StormWatch. Still with me? Good. Wildstorm then set up sub-imprints, to publish books that didn’t exist within the central continuity: Homage, Cliffhanger, and America’s Best Comics. Flash forward to October 1998. Jim Lee drops the bomb that Wildstorm is leaving Image and has been bought, imprints and all, by DC Comics. Whether you look at this as DC acknowledging and supporting creator’s rights and creator owned comics or as Wildstorm selling out as an independent self publisher to the big bad corporation, there is no denying that this move was beneficial to both parties. Jim Lee now had more time to focus on actually drawing comics (okay, he’s doing it for DC, but still…), the books themselves had the publishing and distribution resources of DC at their back now…and DC was now publishing some of the most innovative and popular books in the market, such as The Authority, Astro City and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, swelling DC’s war chests as well.

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#56: Superman Tells Mongul to Burn

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/56.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Superman Annual #11
Writer: Alan Moore
Artist: Dave Gibbons

Sean McKeever's take on Black Bolt in his Inhumans miniseries mirrors most people's vision of Superman. Here is a person so utterly powerful that his slightest gesture could lead to destruction on a planetary scale. He could, like Ultraman, kill you with his eyebeams from orbit... but he doesn't. The kind of noble restraint required of someone so powerful is what makes Superman the icon he is. At the same time, Superman is a truly compassionate man whose sense of loss at the destruction of Krypton only increases his love for Earth, his reverence for life. In Moore and Gibbons' masterpiece, Mongul puts Superman's restraint to the test. With the help of an exotic plant that turns people's greatest wishes into a kind of virtual reality, Mongul allows Superman to live his greatest dream... but it turns into a nightmare. Krypton has survived the explosion, only to turn into a planet plagued by civil war, racism, corruption, and social dissolution. Even if you ignore the context-- the ways in which this story parallels America's civil rights movement and the oppression of gay rights that occurred under Maggie Thatcher-- this is a powerful story of an arrogant society built on the backs of others. The rage Kal-El feels leads to his most violent outburst before Doomsday, a rage we may never have seen without Moore. And then there's the question Moore leaves unanswered: is Kal-El enraged because the Krypton Mongul gave him was a lie? Or because such a corrupt future might have been true?

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#55: Stop me if you’ve heard this one…

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/55.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Batman: The Killing Joke
Writer: Alan Moore
Artist: Brian Bolland

Deciding to show the world that everyone is just one bad day away from the loony bin, the Joker kidnaps and torments Commissioner Gordon, shooting and paralyzing his niece Barbara in the process. Batman tracks Joker down and hunts him through a demented funhouse until finally the two enemies go crashing out into the night air…where Batman reveals that Joker is wrong. Through all the trauma, Gordon is still sane. For all his crimes, Batman won’t brutalize or hurt Joker. Instead, he offers him help, the chance to end the psychotic cycle of violence that will most likely end with one of them dead. A surprisingly somber Joker rejects the offer and says it reminds him of a joke. Two lunatics escape an asylum and reach the roof where one leaps across the narrow gap to freedom, but the other is afraid of falling. The first offers to shine his flashlight across, so that his partner can walk across the beam. “What do you think I am? CRAZY? You’d turn it off when I was halfway across!” Joker cracks up at his own joke…and unexpectedly, the normally dour and stoic Batman begins laughing as well. In a simple and striking moment, Alan Moore defines the strange rivalry and relationship between these two men. Batman’s stark rationalism is just as psychotic a reaction to the traumas he’s suffered as the chaotic and violent behavior of the Joker. Batman is the first inmate, free and in the world but still crazy, offering a beam of hope to his fellow lunatic which he dare not accept because he’s trapped by his fear. Moore makes the Joker an almost tragic figure. And with that kind of sad irony…how can you not laugh?

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#54: The Comedian Attempts to Rape the Silk Spectre

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/54.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: The Watchmen #2
Writer: Alan Moore
Artist: Dave Gibbons

Human nature is at best strange, and other times downright incomprehensible. Case in point: The Comedian. Edward Blake certainly never picked the name because he was funny. Rather, in his eyes, life was a joke, and he embodied some of the worst of human nature in order to make this point clear. In 1940, Blake drives this point home by attempting to rape Sally Jupiter, the Silk Spectre and then "girlfriend" of the Hooded Justice, who manages to stop the act before it can happen. The Comedian is expelled from the Minutemen super-group, but it is the consequences of this event that are most fascinating. The Hooded Justice, who had only used Spectre as a public cover to hide his taste for young men, met his untimely death years later, with the Comedian largely suspected of doing the foul deed. And yet, in spite of all this, Silk Spectre and the Comedian meet again, only to have a sordid love affair, and becoming the parents of Laurie Juspeczyk, who only realizes this with horror in her 30's. Why, for all of the Comedian's sins, did Sally allow herself not only to sleep with him, but to seemingly love him as well? Perhaps she resented holding a false image for so long when Blake's vision of the world was so depressingly clear, or maybe she was simply manipulated yet again. Or maybe, just maybe, Edward Blake touched on something primal within Sally, something she should have ignored, yet couldn't. The reasons are never really made clear, and it's up to the reader to make his or her own decision. Many of us will simply be confused, and that might be the point. Humans don't make sense sometimes, that's what MAKES us human.

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#53: DC- Diverse Comics

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/53.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">In 2004, after nearly 70 years of operation, DC had become the largest corporate entity in comics, held sway over two of the three great superhero universes, and created an imprint of mature comics that is the most critically acclaimed comic book imprint of all time. Most companies would probably be content and rest with that success… but DC is not most companies. In 2004, DC purchased the rights to reproduce content from both Humanoids, a leading publisher of international comics, and 2000 A.D., the highly influential U.K. mag that has for decades been a proving ground for some of comicdoms future greats. As if bringing this material back to the U.S. market weren’t enough, DC also got into the manga game in 2004, establishing the CMX imprint, and spun many of their successful cartoon properties back into comics through yet another new line, Johnny DC. The end result? A transformation from one of the biggest and best companies in the comics world into an absolute publishing powerhouse, skyrocketing DC to the top of the ladder in terms of creative variety in comics.

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#52: Batman vs. Guy Gardner, Round... oh, it's over?

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/52.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: Justice League #5
Writers: Keith Giffen and J. M. DeMatteis
Artist: Kevin Maguire

Presenting, in this corner, the man who can strike fear into any superstitious, cowardly lot, the Dark Knight Detective himself, Batman! And, in this corner, arrogance incarnate, the (self-proclaimed) greatest of the Green Lanterns, Guy Gardner! Guy spent the first four issues of this new League's existence loudly questioning everything from Batman's leadership ability to his wardrobe choices. Sure, the pointy-eared one would counter with passive aggressive sarcasm or an exercise in authority, but a full-on conflict was certainly inevitable. When the moment finally came, Guy put down his ring, raised his fists, and leapt towards the single best trained man in all of comicdom. One punch later, he was unconscious. That sort of confrontation just did not happen in any other team book. Here was a Justice League where not only did the members not necessarily like each other, some flat out hated each other, and they could squabble amongst themselves without the excuse of mind control. Plus, nothing was more rewarding to the fans than to leave Guy out cold, on the floor, and unseen until issue #7. Ah, the silence.

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#51: Swamp Thing discovers his Roots

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dcmoments/51.jpg" align=left alt="Top 70 DC Moments">As chronicled in: The Saga of the Swamp Thing #21
Writer: Alan Moore
Artists: Steve Bissette and John Totleben

Created by Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson in 1971, the Swamp Thing was a B-list character whose first series ran for a mere 24 issues. His origin was simple. Scientist Alec Holland is blown up with his bio-restorative formula and arises, a misshapen monstrosity of plants and vines. And then in 1984 a British writer who’d never worked on a title in the States before took over Swamp Thing’s second series. His name was Alan Moore and with his very first issue, he killed his main character. A bold move, but as the old saying goes one must destroy in order to create. So, in the very next issue, Moore recreated the character beginning with the question: how did a formula designed to affect plants have any effect on a human being? The answer lay with planarian worms. An experiment was discovered where one worm was trained to run a maze, and then fed to other worms…who could then run the maze perfectly without any training. Similarly, Alec Holland’s corpse was launched into the swamp where the plants (accelerated by his formula) fed off of his remains and absorbed his intelligence. It created a body like the one it remembered from vegetation and believed itself to be a mutated Alec Holland. But it wasn’t. Its long quest for its robbed humanity was futile since it had no humanity to begin with. But most importantly, it meant the creature wasn’t dead. Because you can’t kill a plant by shooting it in the head. With one issue, Moore not only crafted one of the most chilling horror tales in modern comics, he also redefined a longstanding character and helped launch his now legendary and groundbreaking comics career, as well as setting into motion the events that would lead to the formation of the Vertigo imprint.

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Join us next time for moments #31-50, and watch ComiX-Fan all month long for more anniversary goodness! (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32203)

Individual Entry Credits:
Nick Costanzo (54, 64 & 70)
Raul Grau (52 & 63)
Alex Groff (56 & 66)
Jon Hancock (61)
Al Harahap (59 & 67)
Matt Lazorwitz (58, 60 & 68)
Jordan T. Maxwell (51, 55, 57, 62 & 65)
Dylan McKay (69)
Joel Phillips (53)

bugalugs1
Feb 2, 2005, 02:42 pm
One Punch??? ONE PUNCH???
I am soooo glad thats in there..

The fact that L&C's wedding, Tim Drake and the Coyote Gospel are in at this stage makes me very excited to see what's coming next..

James Groves
Feb 2, 2005, 02:49 pm
Superman Tells Mongul to Burn & Batman vs. Guy Gardner were great moments! Excellent stuff.

Just think, these are only 70-51. Just think of the rest to come! :D

Qubic
Feb 2, 2005, 04:53 pm
Nice list so far, looking forward to the next list.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 2, 2005, 05:48 pm
should we specify which issue of Watchmen the rape takes place in? and does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that two of the moments on this list involve rape? or am i alone cursed with basic human decency? :p

Mitch Brown
Feb 2, 2005, 06:53 pm
should we specify which issue of Watchmen the rape takes place in? and does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that two of the moments on this list involve rape? or am i alone cursed with basic human decency? :p

Nah, I too found it disturbing that TOP moments involve rape.

Must be all those years of "grim n gritty" :)

Omar A. Safi
Feb 2, 2005, 07:04 pm
I think they should all be about flowers and happy bunnies named Greg.

James Groves
Feb 2, 2005, 07:33 pm
Maybe we're all just a bunch of sick freaks? ;)

Dazzler
Feb 2, 2005, 07:45 pm
True love is a beautiful thing, something that can't be confined to any manner of convention. In the realm of mainstream comics, the couple that most clearly represents this notion is the relationship of the Authority's Apollo and Midnighter. On the surface, it almost looks like some kind of perverse joke: two characters, both of whom are loosely based on Superman and Batman, falling in love? They can't be serious. And yet, at the moment their physical relationship is confirmed, it's not meant as a moment of gratuitous shock. Instead, we see the most tender moment between two characters who, up until this point in the series, had been violent killing machines. Midnighter, for all his tough, self-proclaimed "bastard" behavior, is nearly in tears as he attempts to stop Apollo from risking his life against an invading ShiftShip armada. His fears are quelled with a single kiss, and as usual the good guys (as good as the Authority gets, anyway) save the day. Since then, Apollo and Midnighter have never been shy about their relationship, nor have they shoved it down our throats. There's never been a special "gay rights" issue of the Authority, or some other way in which this couple has had to fight for their existence. Because really, no couple should ever have to fight for the right to love each other. For a pair of superheroes who do so much fighting in every other element of their lives, it's truly refreshing, and quite touching, to see them take solace in each other's arms at the end of the day.


i agree with you here, except for one thing:no couple SHOULD ever have to fight for the right to love each other, but that doesnt mean we DONT. i'm sorry, but i never think having a "special gay rights" issue is a bad thing, especially when it comes down to the fact that more often than not these days (especially thanks to Bush) gay couples are constantly on the ropes. with Authority being a book about a government team, i think it would be interesting to see how a progressively more conservative government would react to two such high profile gay men on their payroll. especially two gay men who (thankfully) dont fit the stereotype. of course, to some, any characterization of a gay couple dealing with issues all gay couples face would be too much "shoving down their throats." it's not the be all and end all of our lives, but really, being in a gay couple, dealing with the issues presented before us, and how the world at large perceives us is something that does play a role in defining us, and i don't think that's going over into "special" categories. it's not unlike how two characters who are married in a heterosexual relationship go through their issues (pregnancies, divorces, infidelities), and it's just taken in stride that dealing with those heterosexual problems are part and parcel to their characterizational make-up. when a gay couple has to deal with the problems gay couples face, it's branded "shoving down throats" and "special gay rights issues." If a heterosexual couple in comics had an entire issue dealing with a miscarriage, abortion, or the dissolution of a relationship, would you be so quick to label it an unnecessary "special straight couple issue" ? no, of course not, but you just assume that such monumental obstacles are important for defining how the couple relates, grows, and develops.

trust me, i really realize your point and even agree with the sentiment behind it, i just happen to have a difference of opinion of the motivating factor behind it. ;)

--Dazz :dazzler:

Joel Phillips
Feb 2, 2005, 07:50 pm
should we specify which issue of Watchmen the rape takes place in?

Yes, we should. Now, we have. :)

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 2, 2005, 08:21 pm
i agree with you here, except for one thing:no couple SHOULD ever have to fight for the right to love each other, but that doesnt mean we DONT. i'm sorry, but i never think having a "special gay rights" issue is a bad thing, especially when it comes down to the fact that more often than not these days (especially thanks to Bush) gay couples are constantly on the ropes. with Authority being a book about a government team, i think it would be interesting to see how a progressively more conservative government would react to two such high profile gay men on their payroll. especially two gay men who (thankfully) dont fit the stereotype. of course, to some, any characterization of a gay couple dealing with issues all gay couples face would be too much "shoving down their throats." it's not the be all and end all of our lives, but really, being in a gay couple, dealing with the issues presented before us, and how the world at large perceives us is something that does play a role in defining us, and i don't think that's going over into "special" categories. it's not unlike how two characters who are married in a heterosexual relationship go through their issues (pregnancies, divorces, infidelities), and it's just taken in stride that dealing with those heterosexual problems are part and parcel to their characterizational make-up. when a gay couple has to deal with the problems gay couples face, it's branded "shoving down throats" and "special gay rights issues." If a heterosexual couple in comics had an entire issue dealing with a miscarriage, abortion, or the dissolution of a relationship, would you be so quick to label it an unnecessary "special straight couple issue" ? no, of course not, but you just assume that such monumental obstacles are important for defining how the couple relates, grows, and develops.

trust me, i really realize your point and even agree with the sentiment behind it, i just happen to have a difference of opinion of the motivating factor behind it. ;)

--Dazz :dazzler:

well, just to clarify on a few points...the Authority is not a government team and has never been on a government payroll. very recently, the Authority TOOK OVER the government and pretty much let a group of extraterrestrials execute Bush, so i don't think they're answering to any conservative groups.

secondly...Apollo and Midnighter don't have to face the same oppressions as gay couples in America because they don't live in America and aren't technically American citizens. their identities were erased when Bendix changed them and they reside aboard the Carrier. so they're fully and legally married (which, since they're basically ruling America now, i don't think they have to worry about having that approved in the "red states") and have adopted a child. they don't have those commonplace struggles. which just plays into the idea of the Authority as a total power fantasy. you can solve all your problems with force. You can justify any ideology with a witty comment. as long as you can kick the other guy's ass, you're right. so in a way, it's as much a power fantasy that Apollo and Midnighter have all the civil liberties that actual gays are so desperately fighting for...because who's going to take it away from them? "we're here, we're queer, we can kill you by looking at you so get the **** over yourselves." The Authority isn't realism, so it's a good thing that there hasn't been some issue devoted solely to gay rights. what next, Shen and Angie dealing with the horrors of racism? this is pure escapism with no need for thematic subtlety or political intricacies. the closest thing you could have to a "special gay rights issue" within the mode of the book itself would be to have Midnighter punch through Fred Phelps' head while Apollo incinerates Jerry Falwell and flies Pat Robertson into the sun.

Wolverine
Feb 2, 2005, 09:17 pm
I agree whole heartedly on all issues bar 1. Green Lantern 50 for me is possibly dc's worst moment. and there is a tiny mistake in the GL 50 paragraph. Hal didn't kill the guardians. they commited suicide thereby transfering their power to ganthet.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 2, 2005, 09:23 pm
so any guesses for moment number 1.

I'm prediciting "I did it 35 minutes ago" from Watchmen. Tat would be my number 1 pick.

Other stuff I wanna see

The bit in Animal Man where his own hand reaches through a panel and scares himself...just a wow (and better than the coyote although that is an amazing moment)

Possibly "home is. run no more" from We3 or any of the splash pages from that series.

or the bit in The Filth when he sees the giant hand and realises its his own.

The end of "The Kindly Ones" or the first Hob's tale, or either Shakespeare appearance in Sandman.

Or when God resurrects Tulip in Preacher, or the very, very last page of that entire project.

EvolutionIceman
Feb 2, 2005, 10:10 pm
Good choices so far.
If animated stuff is in, then Superman's series finale and Return of the Joker should be on here somewhere(maybe Batman Beyond in general).
"I did it 35 minutes ago" should be near the top
Crisis
Flash of Two Worlds
Dark Knight Returns
Those are all guaranteed to be somewhere on this list.
I'd guess Action Comics #1 will be the #1 moment.

Jon Hancock
Feb 2, 2005, 10:24 pm
I agree whole heartedly on all issues bar 1. Green Lantern 50 for me is possibly dc's worst moment. and there is a tiny mistake in the GL 50 paragraph. Hal didn't kill the guardians. they commited suicide thereby transfering their power to ganthet.

Debateable. They were mortally wounded by Hal. They then sacrificed the last vestiges of their life force into forming the final ring.

Tan K.
Feb 3, 2005, 12:03 am
Nice job. Makes me want to check some of these out.

Alex Guillen
Feb 3, 2005, 12:03 am
Jordan, I think that the subjetc of rape is so primal and decadent in any society but this just goes to show us that time does indeed go in circles and what comes around, goes around /very cliche but it's the truth). I ancient times, rape and s&m and the like were normal but after sometime it was censored mainly because of the chruch's inquisition and the evolvement of how society should behave but now we see that sex is all over (movies, tv ads) and it sells. I guess this is just a symptom of basic human urges we have denied but were touched upon by writrs trying to make a point with it.

Swamp Thing was great and it got us hooked on Moore and we got more as well as Superman telling Mongul to "burn"

Kevin Sutton
Feb 3, 2005, 01:50 am
Great list so far. I can't wait to see what's next. Some of my favorites from this section are 61, 57, and 53.

I certainly expect a couple more moments from Watchmen, the Authority, Alan Moore, and Grant Morrison. (Watchmen #9 may be the best comic I've ever read)

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 3, 2005, 04:24 am
Jordan, I think that the subjetc of rape is so primal and decadent in any society but this just goes to show us that time does indeed go in circles and what comes around, goes around /very cliche but it's the truth). I ancient times, rape and s&m and the like were normal but after sometime it was censored mainly because of the chruch's inquisition and the evolvement of how society should behave but now we see that sex is all over (movies, tv ads) and it sells. I guess this is just a symptom of basic human urges we have denied but were touched upon by writrs trying to make a point with it.


except that rape isn't about sex. it's about power and control. the reason i can accept these as top moments is not because of the rape itself, but because of the way in which Moore so skillfully uses it. in Watchmen, he uses it as an extension of the inherently violent power fantasies and psychosexual expression of the superhero genre (men in tights, women in bathing suits and fishnets, the obsession with bondage) and takes it to its darkly psychological result...that someone who expresses their repressed sexuality in this way and engages in violent, fascist power fantasies is going to be inclined towards rape. Look at every character in Watchmen, and about the only person without some kind of sexual problem is the original Night Owl, Hollis Mason. and even him you have to question with those bared legs. With the moment in League, Moore takes it in a much more personally disturbing direction. throughout the story, we're rooting for Hyde to punish and wreak vengeance on Griffin. to beat him, rip him to shreds, have some grandly played out fight scene like the ones we've been conditioned to. we are WANTING this to happen...and when it does, it's exactly what we asked for. Hyde overpowers Griffin. He does so with ease and with some pithy comments and then buggers him to death. It's Moore, playing a mind game with the audience...of "this is what you asked for...now are you ashamed or amused?" If we're good people, it's the former. If we're honest people, it's the latter. it's just as exploitative as if Hyde ripped Griffin limb from limb, just as violent and gruesome. and so we realize just how wrong the thing we wished for was. Or with sick, sadistic and voyeuristic glee...we stifle a giggle. And then we squirm a little.

in the first instance, Moore is being darkly realistic and showing the horror and violence of such an act, but saying "this would be the extension of these genre tropes that we take for granted." in the second, he's purposefully being exploitative and grotesque in order to make a point about our own dramatic expectations...he doesn't so much subvert them as fulfill them much more than we're comfortable with.

Dragon
Feb 4, 2005, 02:21 am
Thous are all really great moments alot of moments good and Bad for Hal Jordan

NMBradbury
Feb 4, 2005, 07:53 am
It's pretty obvious Action Comics 1 should be top. I think that once we hit top 10, top 20 ish, we'll start seeing more 'important' comics, like first appearance of JSA, the Flash kick-starting Silver Age, and so on. For me, I'm hoping for most of the bits in Preacher, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Sandman and The Authority that made me put the comic (or trade) down and go 'Cool.....'

Anthony Lucynski
Feb 4, 2005, 01:53 pm
Deciding to show the world that everyone is just one bad day away from the loony bin, the Joker kidnaps and torments Commissioner Gordon, shooting and paralyzing his niece Barbara in the process.

Niece? I always thought Barbara was his daughter...

Anthony L

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 4, 2005, 05:25 pm
Niece? I always thought Barbara was his daughter...

Anthony L

yes and no. she's biologically his niece, but he adopted her at a young age.

jpreader
Feb 5, 2005, 12:42 pm
This list is damn fine so far.

I just reread the Coyote Gospel last night. A flash of lightning before Morrison's thunder would rock American comics from Flex Mentallo to Logan and Scott Summers wasted in the Hellfire Club.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 5, 2005, 05:07 pm
heh...let's not forget a trio of cybernetically enhanced housepets that proved to be one of the most compelling dramas to visit this medium in a while. ;)

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 6, 2005, 08:38 am
well if we're going with important comics then action and detective 1 are obvious as is flash and flash of two worlds, speedy does drugs more fun comics 1 and All Star comics 1.

but I'd rather have a list of "wow" moments that made me jsut stop and admire what I was reading than historically important stuff that we all already know about.


as for the Morrisson love fest We3 is easily the best thing he has ever done. In fact I think it may be one of the greatest comics ever written. I actually think Morrisson is not jsut a great comics writer but one of the most imaginative and genuinely challenging creators in any medium of modern day. Films that touch on his themes (Pi and The Matrix) jsut fall completely short of what he achieves. Music has stagnated since the 80's the last time there was any true innovation in it and I really can't read many modern novels anymore. they all just seem to pale in comparison to comics.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 6, 2005, 05:50 pm
well, there are a lot of factors that went into nominating and voting on the "top" moments...we looked at historical importance, pure storytelling, "cool" moments, important business decisions...really, the spectrum is wide open and i think it's made for a very diversified list.

evilomar
Feb 9, 2005, 03:19 pm
Great list, brought back alot of memories, some good and some real bad. I just hope that Identity Crisis crap doesn't make it to the top 10.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 9, 2005, 04:08 pm
right...that best selling critically acclaimed crap that brought in a slew of new DC readers...:p

evilomar
Feb 9, 2005, 05:08 pm
To each their own, I just didn't care for it, shock value can only go so far. As far as critically acclaimed and best selling, so was Chocolat, but I didn't enjoy that either. Glad to hear that new DC readers came on board, because of it though. I was a big fan of Justice League Europe and I didn't like the treatment those characters got in IC, it was those types of story that drove me away from American comics in the first place. I felt many things that came out of IC were unnesessary, however I'm sure you guys have already gone into that before, so I wont go into details.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 9, 2005, 05:20 pm
let me just go on the record as saying that the phrase "shock value" has now lost all value to me because people just use it all the time to describe surprising things that they don't like. regardless of if it actually serves the story or character...you don't like it, bam, it's just "shock value." i just laugh now anytime i see that phrase.

James Groves
Feb 9, 2005, 05:32 pm
let me just go on the record as saying that the phrase "shock value" has now lost all value to me because people just use it all the time to describe surprising things that they don't like. regardless of if it actually serves the story or character...you don't like it, bam, it's just "shock value." i just laugh now anytime i see that phrase.

The only part of IC that actually merits the term "shock value" was when it was revealled Sue Dibny was pregnant with child before being murdered. I saw that as exploitative and rather shoddy in its use as a device to make the death more tragic. Thus evoking a base emotional repsonse. That, was "shock value". Other than that, i agree with you and the way it's banded about too much. There's one other comic ive seen that in recently, but regarding IC, it was definitely seen to some degree within the series.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 9, 2005, 05:53 pm
it definitely evoked a more emotional response from me, but it didn't feel exploitative. just heightened the tragedy that in the midst of all this goodness in Ralph's life, one tragedy strips it all away. they didn't harp on her being pregnant throughout...hell, i don't even recall it being mentioned again. if they'd gone on and on about "poor Ralph...for he has lost not only his wife, but his unborn child as well...alas!" then, yeah, i'd agree. but the revelation in and of itself didn't read that way to me at all. it heightened the tragedy of the event. it wasn't just there to make the reader gasp...THAT would be just using it for shock value. but it served a purpose so, while it may have been shocking, it did serve a purpose.

evilomar
Feb 9, 2005, 09:58 pm
The shock value I was talking about was the scene in the first issue where Ralph Dibny is holding the body of his burned dead wife, with the positive test results of her pregnancy was a little much. The raping of a woman should also be shock value, not for most of us adult readers, but some new readers happen to be kids. Kids that are suppose to be reading about heroes, and by the end of the series there was nothing heroic that came out of the book. What bothered me the most besides the scripting is the fact that the rape took place 10 years ago. To say that for the last 10 years the characters knew what had happened, but never mentioned it once is ludicrous (Don't even start with the heroic lobotomy the heroes were in favor of). Of course if you didn't know the characters at all, I could see why so many new readers enjoyed the book. So let me go on the record by stating that rewriting history is a huge turnoff in comics (Like JMS did with Sins Pasts) well at least for me.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 10, 2005, 02:00 am
Identity Crisis and Sins Past are two of my favorite stories of the last year. because they were well told stories that acknowledged the past while also attempting to move forward rather than treading water in stale franchises. i've already mentioned why i don't believe the pregnancy to be shock value. and frankly, i don't think the rape is either. in order to bring the heroes to that place where they would cross that ethical line in the sand, you needed an extreme catalyst. again, it served the characters and the story. and the way it was done, i think more mature readers would know it was rape while younger readers who (thankfully) aren't as aware of such things would just think he attacked her. i don't believe they ever explicitly call it rape in the series. as for them not talking about it...well, it's not exactly something you bring up in conversation when it's not relevant. i have a certain familiarity with the characters involved, which has become moreso as Identity Crisis not only prompted me to start reading more DC, but to actually go back and read older stories as well...and i don't think any of them acted particularly out of character in that situation. and Sins Past was just a kick ass story.

evilomar
Feb 11, 2005, 10:02 am
Do yourself a favor and go back and read Amazing 96 - 113, where the Sins Past story allegedly took place, now those original stories kick ass. I'm all down with moving foward, but those stories were already told, just leave them alone. As far as the IC rape scene, I think its pretty apperent what was going on, even little kids can figure that one out. As for the heroes not acting out of charcter...hmm go and read some old JL Europe and International, then you can tell me that crap. Examples you say, sure; like the whole Justice league dog piling Deathstroke the Terminator(Whom Nightwing alone has taken care of by himself!), or Jean just goint nuts and knowing how to use the Atom suit, because Ray leaves them laying around everywhere; or the fact she just happened to be carrying her favorite weapon of choice A FLAMETHROWER; wouldn't the Calculator be able to figure out that Tim Drake is Robin and therefore Bruce Wayne Batman;and my boys Batman and J'onn the world's greatest detectives couldn't find a single hair or footprint(she wasn't small the whole time) or tell that a flamethrower was used. Can't wait to see what they do with the Blue Beetle in this new maxi series, because nothing introduces new readers to comic books better then death!!!

James Groves
Feb 11, 2005, 03:49 pm
they didn't harp on her being pregnant throughout...hell, i don't even recall it being mentioned again.

Exactly my point...and why i believe it was used for shock value purposes. It was mentioned that lightly and that sparingly that the only good use for it was to gain a cheap emotional response from the reader. There isnt any real way this revelation can be explored further in the future.

To be honest though, shock tactics, shock value, etc, have little impact on me today. Increased acceptance and visibility, and the fact traditional shocks have gone mainstream, mean i've become de-sensitised. Its hard to find anything that shocks me anymore.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 11, 2005, 07:08 pm
Exactly my point...and why i believe it was used for shock value purposes. It was mentioned that lightly and that sparingly that the only good use for it was to gain a cheap emotional response from the reader. There isnt any real way this revelation can be explored further in the future.


i disagree. if they'd continued to pound home the fact "she's pregant, it's tragic, oh woe, alas, alack!" that would've been worse and cheap. having it merely exist as an element of the tragedy? nope, doesn't strike me as cheap or shock value. it's the author playing an emotional beat. what, suddenly we don't want writers manipulating our emotions? that's what drama is for!

Jon Hancock
Feb 11, 2005, 09:13 pm
Do yourself a favor and go back and read Amazing 96 - 113, where the Sins Past story allegedly took place, now those original stories kick ass. I'm all down with moving foward, but those stories were already told, just leave them alone. As far as the IC rape scene, I think its pretty apperent what was going on, even little kids can figure that one out. As for the heroes not acting out of charcter...hmm go and read some old JL Europe and International, then you can tell me that crap. Examples you say, sure; like the whole Justice league dog piling Deathstroke the Terminator(Whom Nightwing alone has taken care of by himself!), or Jean just goint nuts and knowing how to use the Atom suit, because Ray leaves them laying around everywhere; or the fact she just happened to be carrying her favorite weapon of choice A FLAMETHROWER; wouldn't the Calculator be able to figure out that Tim Drake is Robin and therefore Bruce Wayne Batman;and my boys Batman and J'onn the world's greatest detectives couldn't find a single hair or footprint(she wasn't small the whole time) or tell that a flamethrower was used. Can't wait to see what they do with the Blue Beetle in this new maxi series, because nothing introduces new readers to comic books better then death!!!


I'm sorry but I've got to rip this apart.

Old JLE and JLI issues? So where was Booster and Beetle in all this? Ralph and Sue were the only characters highlighted in Identity Crisis that had any connections with the JLI and they were written faithfully. they're all about their relationship, not comedy.

IF you had read old JLA or even any of the characters involved's solo titles you'd know that the actions they took made perfect sense.

Deathstroke made Nightwing run away. That's not being handled easily. He has always been a team level threat, especially with prep time.

Again, as you claim to know the characters so well you'd know that Jean frequently shrunk with Ray and would know all about how the belt worked. (It's the belt, not the suit that does the shrinking). Plus she's never been the most stable and her insanity was well written. PLUS... she had access to all of Ray's old devices through their divorce. How hard is it to pick up a flamethrower? Not very. Jean knew that Dr Light had raped Sue and so saw a way of diverting attention.

The Calculator isn't a detective. He's a poor man's Oracle. He peddles where and when and jobs. Nothing else. Why would he be able to uncover secret identities? Someone asked him to get a hired killer to kill a guy. He's not going to say "Is this guy related to Robin?" It's hardly your typical line of questioning.

Batman couldn't solve the clue as there was no apparent motive or suspect. Of course Jean's hair was there. She was Sue's best friend. If my best mate dies tomorrow I doubt I'll be a suspect because there's samples of my DNA at his flat. They also knew she'd been incinerated. I think it's actually impossible to trace that back to a weapon but Mid-Nite's autopsy on the day showed that Sue had been killed before incineration. You know how quickly autopsies usually happen?

Yeah, you really know the characters inside out.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 11, 2005, 10:44 pm
heh...never thought i'd have Jon to back me up (our arguments are legendary), but i do appreciate someone who's imminently more knowledgeable about DC here to back me up. no, i haven't read a whole lot of DC books (comparative to the amount of Marvel and Vertigo)...hadn't even heard of Sue Dibny before i read Identity Crisis (and her death still brought tears to my eyes. THAT is good writing). so while i don't know the ins and outs of a lot of these characters and their history, i do know a few of them...i'm a big Green Arrow fan. love Zatanna (mainly through Vertigo). and i've come to know more about them since reading Identity Crisis and none of them seemed to be acting out of character. hell, not sure where this falls in the chronology, but after Longbow Hunters, i would've expected Ollie and Dinah to side with those who wanted to lobotomize him. the explanations and revelations made sense. and it was just a damn fine story besides. i think Jon's done a fine job of refuting the supposed errors you bring up. and as for Sins Past...i've read plenty of the original stories with Gwen. and it didn't do a thing to lessen my opinion of them or of her. it was a good and compelling story (not flawless, but the flaws i saw were minor and didn't hamper my enjoyment of the story one bit). in the end, more often than not, that's the only criterion i need.

raul grau
Feb 12, 2005, 02:59 am
Jordan, the Justice League of America flashbacks in Identity Crisis are set well before Longbow Hunters. Hunters took place during Black Canary's time with the Giffen League, which would be about a decade worth of stories (our time) later than the Dr. Light incident. However, I agree, if Hunters had taken place first, then the vote would have been much different.

and my boys Batman and J'onn the world's greatest detectives couldn't find a single hair or footprint(she wasn't small the whole time) or tell that a flamethrower was used.
In addition to what Jon said, the Atom costume forms a thin membrane around the user, which is why it is invisible when the person is at full size, but seen when they shrink. Therefore, since Jean was covered by, basically, a body-sized co... all-ages board, all-ages board... coating the entire time she was large, it would have been rather difficult for her to leave evidence behind. :)

- Raul

evilomar
Feb 15, 2005, 05:12 pm
ok