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View Full Version : TOP 70 DC CHARACTERS, PART 3: #30-11


Jon Hancock
Feb 20, 2005, 07:05 pm
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/Top70DCCharacters.jpg" align=left border=0 alt="Top 70 DC Characters">Part 3: #30-11

By: Raul Grau, Alex Groff, Dan Hancock, Jon Hancock, Al Harahap, Matt Lazorwitz, Jordan T. Maxwell, and Dylan McKay
Editor: Jon Hancock

Characters are everything when it comes to story. Without characters you’re left with some nice scenery that would look good as a calendar in a toilet, but makes for a lousy comic. Characters within comics are a special breed. They earn such attention and admiration that many readers will follow a character rather than a writer or story. How many times was Dickens asked to introduce Oliver Twist in the Pickwick Papers? How many times did Shakespeare receive death threats for killing off Romeo and Juliet? Comic fans know what characters they like and so do staff members on comic websites.

For our penultimate instalment celebrating DC’s wide and varied character base you can expect to find four founding Justice League members, three former sidekicks, two journalists and the most curmudgeonly man in comics

If you've only just joined us then feel free to check what you've missed in Part 1 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32275) of the column or

But enough with the teasers and meaningless prattle. Ladies and gentlemen, ComiX-Fan’s staff proudly presents the third instalment of The Top 70 DC Characters Of All Time starting at #30

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#30 Alfred Pennyworth

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/30.jpg" align=left alt="Alfred Pennyworth">First Appearance: Batman #16
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane

Butler, friend, and father: these are a few of the words that can be used to describe Alfred Pennyworth. After spending years with the British Secret Service and on the London Stage, Alfred took up the job that had belonged to his father: butler to Thomas and Martha Wayne. And although he intended to stay only a brief time, he did not, first out of friendship to the Waynes, and then to the duty of helping care for their orphaned son, Bruce. Alfred has stayed with Bruce through thick and thin, a turbulent adolescence, a period of seeking his place in the world, and his tenure as the Batman, hero of Gotham. Batman with Alfred is a stronger person and character, as Alfred is one of the few people in the DC Universe who is not afraid of Batman’s brooding exterior. With a wry comment for every occasion, Alfred never allows Bruce to take himself too seriously when he shouldn’t be. But he is also the caring heart of the Batman family, not only healing wounds as best he can, but looking out for Bruce and his various apprentices as the best of parents can. Alfred has proven more than a supporting character, carrying his own tales from time to time, and defending himself as need be, but he is best when he is taking care of the Batcave and Wayne Manor, and, of course, its master.

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#29 Green Lantern (Alan Scott)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/29.jpg" align="left" alt="Green Lantern (Alan Scott)">First Appearance: All-American Comics #16
Created by: Bill Finger and Martin Nodell

1940 had its share of blackest nights, at least until Alan Scott began shining his green light on the evildoers of Gotham City (in sharp contrast to that other Bill Finger creation). His original middle name was Ladd, a play on words inspired by an Arabian lad who also found a magic lamp... though in Alan's case, the lamp (well, lantern) came with a matching ring. Alan was among the most powerful members of the Justice Society of America, so (in Superman fashion) he developed a sudden weakness to all things wood. You can argue that an extreme case of cellulose allergy and a cab driving sidekick with terrible grammar are necessary elements to add vulnerability, but Alan Scott was never one to lose sight of his humanity. It was Green Lantern who inspired the other members of the Society to collect money for war orphans. It was also he who indirectly drove a female employee to become a supervillain, simply to win his affections. Alan has always had a way with the evil ladies, marrying two villainesses over the course of his very long life. The 90s even brought a new dynamic to Alan's story, with the rechristened Sentinel dealing with the reverse ageism brought on by eternal youth. Now, still powerful but slightly greyer, Alan has reclaimed the Green Lantern mantle, providing guidance and green tinted power to a new generation of the JSA. He would say that his greatest legacy would be his two children, Jade and Obsidian, super people in their own right, but we know better. Without Alan and the fan base he inspired, there would never have been another Green Lantern. Without Alan, there would be no Hal, or John, or Guy, or Kyle, or G'Nort, or even Ch'p... and what a poorly lit fictional universe that would be.

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#28 Lucifer Morningstar

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/28.jpg" align="left" alt="Lucifer Morningstar">First appearance: Sandman #4
Created by: Neil Gaiman and Mike Dringenberg

Lucifer was once the archangel Samael, first and greatest of the Host of angels. His passion rivalled that of his Creator, so much so that he led a third of the Host in a rebellion at the dawn of time. He failed and was expelled with his fellow renegades, falling from Heaven into the depths of Hell. So if pride cometh before the fall, what cometh after? When you’re left wondering if your great act of defiance was nothing more than playing some predestined role in the cosmic drama, what do you do? In the case of Lucifer, you retire, move to Los Angeles and open up a nightclub. When he first appeared in Sandman, he was a figure of regality and charisma. But it was his humanity in the Season of Mists story arc that truly endeared him to readers. The immediate subversion of expectations, that the Devil would quit Hell and go sing Cole Porter standards in the City of Angels instead, gave notice that this would not be a standard portrayal of the Adversary of Heaven. A tragic character who walks away from the tragedy so he can live his life. But it’s hard for the second most powerful being in existence to stay out of the game…and so since his retirement, Lucifer has battled with Japanese and Norse gods, gone toe to toe with enemies from Heaven, lovers from Hell and an evil deck of tarot cards, created his own universe, died and inadvertently kicked off the end of all reality…though not necessarily in that order. His moral ambiguity, political genius and the complete air of class and style that surrounds him even when going into battle have made Lucifer one of the most popular characters to spin out of the Sandman mythos, joining fellow trickster John Constantine in the honour of solo title glory.

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#27 Ozymandias (Adrian Veidt)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/27.jpg" align="left" alt="Ozymandias (Adrian Veidt)">First Appearance: Watchmen #1
Created by: Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons

Making the top 30 of this list while appearing in merely twelve issues is no small feat, but then again, those are arguably the greatest twelve issues in comics history. Ironically enough, of all the main characters in Watchmen, Adrian Veidt probably gets the least face time, but he also plays arguably the most important role. Adrian transcends the concepts of heroism and villainy by becoming, what I would describe as, a Machiavellian hero where morality is just for show and the end result is all that matters. And Adrian Veidt gets results, while virtually all other superheroes fail to achieve any great objectives, Adrian Veidt strives for world peace, and as far as the reader is allowed to see, he achieves it. Ozymandias stands out among comic book characters for being the first to demonstrate that classical superhero morality may not only be outdated, but also a hindrance to the stated objective of the superhero. But the questions will always linger, do the ends justify the means? Are three million lives a fair price for world peace?

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#26 James Gordon

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/26.jpg" align="left" alt="James Gordon">First Appearance: Detective Comics #27
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane

Commissioner James Gordon has been a fixture in Gotham City for as long as Batman has. Introduced in the same story that introduced the Dark Knight, Gordon has been sometimes foe, most times ally to Batman. And more often than not, he has been his friend as well. A good cop in a very corrupt city, Jim Gordon rose through the murky ranks of the GCPD to be Commissioner of Police. And knowing that he alone couldn’t face down the evil of Gotham, he has allied himself with Batman to help the city he wants to see safe. His tenure has been rocky, and he has been relieved of duty more than once, but he always comes back, because he has the respect of his officers and the trust of the people. Even now, retired and teaching criminology, Jim Gordon proves an inspiration to the police, and a much needed confidant to Batman. Gordon has proven important not just for his longevity, but for his growth as a character. Gordon started out simply as a police contact for Batman, serving the plot and little else. But slowly he grew. He got a family in his daughter Barbara, who would prove important to the Bat mythos in her own way, and a well rounded history from Frank Miller in Batman: Year One. Far from the doddering old man he was once presented as, Gordon is now a vital part of the Batman universe.

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#25 Plastic Man (Eel O'Brien)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/25.jpg" align="left" alt="Plastic Man (Eel O’Brien)">First Appearance: Police Comics #1
Created by: Jack Cole

When lowlife thug Eel O'Brien attempted to rob a chemical factory with his gang, his life changed forever. When the robbery is botched, Eel is left wounded in a vat of a mysterious chemical. Upon his emergence, Eel found his bio-chemical structure completely altered meaning he could now stretch and shape his body in any way he pleased. Conventional wisdom would be that giving a crook super powers would lead to the origin of a new super villain, but Plastic Man's wisdom has never been conventional. Whether it's his classic origin of finding fighting for justice more fulfilling as he gets revenge on the gang that turned on him or the modern origin where his recovery in a remote monastery showed him that he could be much more, on that fateful night, Eel O'Brien became a legend in comics. Eel O'Brien became the superhero Plastic Man, and in the process he became the first reformed villain in superhero history. While there were funny superheroes before Plastic Man, Plastic Man was the first one to carry his own book, and in the process, paved the way for characters like Spiderman by proving the viability of the comedy superhero genre fusion. Plastic Man may not currently have the largest fan base, but no one can underrate the importance of this master of physical comedy and example to criminals everywhere to the comics medium.

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#24 Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/24.jpg" align="left" alt="Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)">First Appearance: Green Lantern (2nd series) #48
Created by: Ron Marz and Daryl Banks

Kyle Rayner was created to be the last of the Green Lanterns. After Hal Jordan went on a rampage, slaughtering most of his fellow GLs and all the Guardians of the Universe save one, the last Guardian, Ganthet, headed to Earth and gave the last ring to the first human he found. This human was Kyle Rayner. This was a person who was not fearless, like previous Green Lanterns, but was all too human. And in that is part of Kyle’s charm. This was the everyman Green Lantern, more than any of the others. He was a 20-something kid who didn’t want to do anything more than draw and hang out with his girlfriend. But, slowly but surely, Kyle becomes a hero. He was part of one of the most important traditions in the DCU, and those traditions are what make DC Comics great. And you cheer for him. You cheer for him joining the JLA. You cheer for him falling for Jade. You cheer for him finally stepping out of the long shadow of Hal Jordan. And while there has always been controversy surrounding Kyle, due mostly to the end that Hal Jordan met and that had little to do with Kyle himself, He has developed a loyal fan base. It’s funny that, with the return of Hal Jordan, Kyle’s fans are facing a similar angst to that felt by fans of Hal. But, if all goes well, Kyle’s emerald light will continue to shine for years to come, as he has many more journeys to make.

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#23 Aquaman (Orin)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/23.jpg" align="left" alt="Aquaman (Orin)">First Appearance: More Fun Comics #73
Created by: Mort Weisinger

I command the sea, but no one cares about me. Or at least that always seems to be the case. Yet Aquaman is one of the most original and long lasting characters ever spawned by DC. The King of the vast majority of the planet Earth, Aquaman seems to fall prey to the lame powers criticism far too often. Here is a character though who goes beyond powers. Aquaman is a regal lord who struggles to understand the rest of the world. Unlike Submariner, Aquaman has tried to embrace the surface world at every turn and his membership in various incarnations of the Justice League show his constant wish for human/Atlantean relations to improve. He's not the strongest, the fastest or the toughest hero but he is one of the strongest in character and experience. Having lost one son and been betrayed by another, Aquaman has lost his wife countless times and his Kingdom recently. Yet still he is a hero. Persevering, Aquaman still protects those that need him in Sub Diego. He's not cosmically powerful and he is best suited to talking to fishes but Aquaman is also one of the most noble, committed, brave and longstanding characters that exists in the DCU. Aquaman isn't cool, he's instead a model of what every hero should endeavour to be. Which is probably why Mitchell Hundred loves him so much.

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#22 Rorschach (Walter Kovacs)
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/22.jpg" align="left" alt="Rorschach (Walter Kovacs)">First appearance: Watchmen #1
Created by: Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons

Men who dress up in masks and costumes and go out nightly to beat up criminals are not right in the head. And the character of Rorschach renders that an extreme understatement. Walter Kovacs is a short and ugly man with a laundry list of neuroses: sexual identity, paranoia, obsessive behaviour, violent rages and an inability to function in society. By day, he walks the city proclaiming the end of the world (whether he believes this to be true or is using it as a cover identity) and by night he dons a trench coat, fedora and his “face” (a mask that resembles the inkblot tests from which he takes his name) and stalks the streets to investigate and fight crime. Of course, for Kovacs, “investigate and fight crime” means causing extreme bodily harm to a number of people. At first, he was a more restrained crime fighter, but a gruesome crime shattered what little shred of sanity he had left. His problems, though, run far deeper to his own abusive childhood. Rorschach is a disturbing yet compelling look at the kind of troubled psyche that would actually produce a Batman or a Punisher. He has no grand tragedy in his past that drives him on a quest for justice or vengeance. He has no enhanced skills or abilities beyond the sociopathic need to hurt others. He is simply ill, lashing out at a world that has hurt him, trying to make sense of the chaotic grey areas of life by reducing it to black and white. Ironically, there is no room for interpretation in Rorschach’s world. And yet we find ourselves rooting for him because we’ve been conditioned to. The moral absolutist. The violent power fantasy. The vigilante. Revealed as nothing more than an ugly little man, alone and overwhelmed by a world too large for his narrow perspective.

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#21 Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/21.jpg" align="left" alt="Hal Jordan (Green Lantern, Parallax, The Spectre)">First Appearance: Showcase #22
Created by: Julius Schwartz, John Broome & Gil Kane

Given the current context of this column-- the eve, not only of DC's Anniversary, but also of Hal Jordan's third rebirth-- its hard to separate the character from the world publishing him. Hal was a test pilot, haunted by the death of his father, given the power to shape his will into anything he could image. Yet in 1959 when he was created, he was a product of Julius Schwartz's and readership's desire for science fiction. (After all, the first Green Lantern, Alan Scott, had mystical powers and a magician's cape. The Green Lantern Corps and Guardians had far more in common with E.E. Doc Smith's 1950's sci-fi series, The Lensmen, than their emerald predecessor.) Jordan served the universe as the man who knew no fear, until the 1970's, when science-fiction and sales hit a low. Then, teamed with his best friend, Oliver Queen (Green Arrow), he toured the country helped to fix social injustices that the sixties had brought to light: drug abuse, racism and poverty. However, in a post-Dark Knight Returns DCU, he returned to the skies and drab sales only to be driven insane by grief and the injustices he suffered at the hands of Mongul and Sapphire. He killed friends and team mates to gain access to the Central Battery that powered all Green Lanterns, in order to recreate the world in his image. While such a grandiose plot fit Hal's idealism and confidence, the simplistic hero/villain writing style that characterized this period painted him as a vile, utter villain. He destroyed the universe in Zero Hour, but it was left to heroes like Damage and the Linear Men to heal the world. With his final battle against Kyle Rayner, his power source, his life source, was destroyed, and Jordan was gone forever. However, fans would not let Jordan die, especially not as a villain. So, he was resurrected to save the world by reigniting the Sun during the Final Night. And then he was resurrected to play host to the Spectre, so he could lament over his mistakes while playing the part of the hero. As the Spectre, he was not truly alive, but also not dead - and most importantly, he had his own series. Now, in Green Lantern: Rebirth, purgatory is over, and through a retcon he is restored to the true title of hero. Not only is Hal Jordan alive and perfect again, but his arch nemesis, Sinestro, is alive and perfectly evil again, which is perhaps yet another comment on the relationship between the audience and their comics.

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#20 Lois Lane

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/20.jpg" align=left alt="Lois Lane">First Appearance: Action Comics #1
Created by: Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster

The only one of Superman's supporting cast who was introduced along with him, Lois Lane started out in the cliche damsel-in-distress role. But it wasn't long before Lois would break through the archetype ceiling and come into her own with a headstrong attitude. As an investigative field reporter for the Daily Planet, she became a constant figure throughout Superman stories, brave enough to face dangerous villains head-on to help him. And sometimes, because of her trademark rebellious nature, even without his consent. More recently, Lois has become quite the modern woman by becoming adept at martial arts and firearms. Perhaps even more significant is Lois' role as the better half of Superman. She was his perennial unrequited love, whom readers would continually cheer for. Though she would get her fair share of competition for Superman's love over the years, it always leads back to Lois, as if destined soulmates. More importantly, yearning to be loved as Clark Kent, it is through Lois that the hero has maintained his humanity. She is his conscience, his anchor, who keeps him grounded. Now sharing his secret and his life in wedded bliss, no other civillian has earned more trust from the superhero community. Lois is the prime supporting character in the world of superhero comics who adds dimensions to what would otherwise be flat superhero characters. Without her, there would be no Alfred Pennyworth, no Mary Jane Watson, no Rick Jones. Friend, ally, confidante, lover -- Lois Lane is the human in all superheroes.

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#19 Spider Jerusalem
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/19.jpg" align="left" alt="Spider Jerusalem">First appearance: Transmetropolitan #1
Created by: Warren Ellis and Darick Robertson

If the truth is a weapon, then Spider Jerusalem is the naked berserker swinging it over his head and lopping off the heads of pretension, hypocrisy and corruption. He doesn’t like politics, he doesn’t like religion, he doesn’t like sex (mostly because he can never seem to get any) and most of all he doesn’t like you. But he’s here to serve you all the same. A gonzo journalist in a futuristic city that resembles the Jetsons a la Timothy Leary. Yet the world is still much the same. Politicians lie, police crack skulls more than they serve and protect, people thrive on apathy and ignorance and the media distracts more than it informs. Spider Jerusalem is armed with little more than his journalistic gifts, a need to expose the truth (and occasionally himself), his filthy assistants Yelena and Channon and a bowel disruptor…all in the service of taking on the world and shaking it out of its stupidity and banality so it can cease pissing him off and let him retire back into isolation. Despite his acerbic personality, Spider has at his core an all too caring heart that sees injustice and has to set it right. Whether it’s exploring the plights of the poor or exposing the machinations of the mighty, he will take the truth and beat you over the head with it until you finally look and see how ugly it is. In our present day world of white washed news and infotainment, Spider is a chainsaw into the reader’s consciousness, a wake up call to what’s going on in our own time. Like the fool in a Shakespearean play, his jests are outlandish, brutally honest and wise. And you’d best listen to him, lest he turn that dial to “prolapse.” He is also noteworthy for being the sole survivor of DC’s failed Helix imprint, and star of the first purely science fiction title in the Vertigo line up.

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#18 Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/18.jpg" align="left" alt="Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)">First Appearance: Flash Comics #86
Created by: Robert Kanigher and Irwin Hasen
Reimagined by: Roy Thomas

Where once there was only one Black Canary, DC decided in 1983 that there had always been two. One, Dinah Drake, Golden Age heroine of fishnets and fists, and the other, Dinah Lance, daughter of the original, with the same fashion sense and a Canary Cry to boot. It was the younger, empowered Canary who had been a long-standing member of the Justice League of America, playing footsie with Green Arrow and tagging along on his hard-travels, in an era when only those heroes without regular series received development. Crisis further raised her profile, retroactively adding her to the founding roster of the JLoA. Then the Longbow Hunters cost Dinah her powers, in a show of 80s style, grim n' gritty rape and torture. For years following the incident, Black Canary suffered from indecision and doubt, plagued by her pain and revealing personality along the way. She had name recognition, personal tragedy, and legs up to here, yet she remained either a simple background player or star of one short-lived series after another. Why you ask? It should be obvious, no one buys titles starring female heroes. That cliché held true right up until Dinah decided to play team-up with Oracle. The Birds of Prey has given Dinah a forum to examine vigilantism from a female perspective, and a costume that prevents drafts. Currently, Black Canary maintains her Birdness, along with reserve status on both the JLA and the JSA, cementing her position as representative of every era of DC history. With her powers restored, she is a force to be reckoned with, both in combat and on sales charts. Not bad for a former florist shoehorned into past continuity.

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#17 Oracle (Barbara Gordon)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/17.jpg" align="left" alt="Oracle (Barbara Gordon)">First Appearance (as Batgirl I): Detective Comics #359
First Appearance (as Oracle): Suicide Squad (1st series) #23
Created by: Gardner Fox and Carmine Infantino
Reimagined by: John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and Luke McDonnell

When Batgirl was first introduced, she was just another member of the Bat Franchise. Originally spinning out of the 60s Batman TV series, Barbara Gordon is the adopted daughter of Commissioner James Gordon. Going to a costume party at Wayne Manor as Batgirl, Barbara stopped Killer Moth from kidnapping Bruce Wayne, and she was bitten by the crime fighting bug. She began to patrol wearing her costume, and eventually earned the trust and approval of Batman. After a time, she hung up her cape and cowl, enjoying the life of a private citizen. But this was not to be. One day, answering a knock at her father’s door, Barbara came face to dace with the Joker, who shot her, shattering her spine and leaving her crippled from the waist down. Instead of giving in to despair, though, Barbara made the most of her other abilities. A master hacker with a photographic memory, Barbara became Oracle, the resource for all the world’s heroes. If you need information of any kind, be it a location or a phone number, Oracle can get it for you. One of the important things about Oracle is that she has not recovered from her injuries. In a world where the dead regularly rise from the grave and people survive grievous wounds, Barbara is a shining example of someone who accepts their handicap and makes the most of her life, going as far as turning down the offer of cybernetic legs from the Martian Manhunter, as she was at peace with where her life was. Also, she is the leader of the Birds of Prey, DC’s first successful all female team, a position she has held from their inception.

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#16 Catwoman (Selina Kyle)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/16.jpg" align="left" alt="Catwoman (Selina Kyle)">First Appearance: Batman #1
Created by: Bob Kane

Catwoman is a hard character to place on the list. She is truly a revolutionary character who created multiple archetypes. Problem is, in the past ten years those archetypes have become synonymous with bad comic books. Catwoman is the original bad girl, which has become a four letter word lately. Catwoman and Batman's relationship is the first example of hero/villainess sexual tension, which even between the two of them has become pretty poor. Catwoman is one of the first villains to become an anti-hero, if not the first, it's hard to create a time line for that. And anti-heroes were in such a glut in the 90's that the thought of them makes my skin crawl. But this should not detract from Catwoman's revolutionary status as a character who broke down many barriers. Selina Kyle straddles the same fence as Wonder Woman in that she is simultaneously an empowered woman and a sexual fantasy. A hard balance to achieve, Catwoman challenges the notions that if a man was portrayed as she is, he'd be “kewl” but she is a threat that needs to be dealt with. In recent years though, this problem has subsided and this has enabled Catwoman to blossom as a well rounded and dynamic character. Probably no other character in comics has had a rougher ride to becoming a legitimate solo star, but this is one character who definitely took her lumps to earn a spot on this list. Catwoman’s value as a character can be seen by her own solo series coming before Robin’s.

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#15 Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/15.jpg" align="left" alt="Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)">First Appearance: Whiz Comics #1
Created by: Bill Parker and Charles Clarence (C.C.) Beck

Combine the wisdom, strength, stamina, power, courage, and speed of six Roman, Greek and Hebrew figures, blend in the mind of an orphan boy, shake well, and, Shazam!, you have Captain Marvel. Soon after his 1939 debut, Marvel quickly eclipsed his Super predecessor to become the best selling comic book character of the era. The Fawcett universe grew around him, with Lieutenant, Junior, Mary, and Uncle Marvels springing up to share in his adventures as well as Hoppy the Marvel Bunny. Billy might have secretly been a child within an adult frame, but the Captain was the very epitome of a superman, and, most importantly, quite profitable, so of course DC was going to sue for copyright infringement. Fawcett eventually gave up the fight, agreeing to cease production on the Marvel Family family of titles. Gone, but not the least bit forgotten, Billy would inspire Marvelman (who would later beget Miracleman), his many namesakes at Marvel Comic, and the most memorable catchphrase of Gomer Pyle. Surprisingly enough, DC, the very company that had forced him into hiatus two decades earlier, would prove to be his saviour, purchasing the character and sharing him with a new audience. He was given his own Earth, his own special, his own live action series, and animated equivalent. Sadly, his star soon faded, and readers have been treated to a string of failed series trying to recapture the Captain Marvel magic. Billy Batson may have a tragic life, but he is eternally optimistic, driven to help others by his own sense of goodness. Captain Marvel may be the purest, most undiluted example left of the Golden Age, so perhaps that explains his many cancellations. He is purposefully anachronistic, an ideal more than a person, but as long as a single writer still believes that the message of young Billy might once again resonate with our jaded community, then wonder and innocence will live on.

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#14 Martian Manhunter (J’onn J’onzz)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/14.jpg" align="left" alt="Martian Manhunter (J’onn J’onzz)">First Appearance: Detective Comics #225
Created by: Joe Samachson and Joe Certa

J’onn J’onzz, the Martian Manhunter, is in many ways the classic science fiction stranger in a strange land, only acting as a super hero. As opposed to Superman, who never knew his native world of Krypton, J’onn grew to adulthood and had a family on his native Mars before a plague took all the rest of his race. Teleported to Earth, J’onn disguised himself amongst humanity for years before the dawning of the second heroic age, when he revealed himself, becoming a founding member of the Justice League of America. J’onn has been a founding member of each incarnation of the League, serving sometimes as leader. J’onn was the first new hero to be introduced in the Silver Age of DC Comics. While there was a new Flash and a new Green Lantern, they each had Golden Age antecedents. J’onn was a fresh character, and has grown since then. His evolution has made him less and less a Superman clone, and has made him a deep thinker and feeler, and the heart and soul of the JLA. He is the thoughtful voice that provides strategy and good council to all members of the League, and has often been the mentor to young and inexperienced heroes. Whether in comics or on the cartoon, no Justice League would be complete without the Martian Manhunter.

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#13 The Flash (Wally West)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/13.jpg" align="left" alt="The Flash (Wally West)"> First Appearance (as Kid Flash I): Flash (1st series) #110
First Appearance (as Flash III): Crisis on Infinite Earths #12
Created by: Gardner Fox
Reimagined by: Mike Baron & Jackson Guice

“My Name is Wally West. I’m the fastest man alive. I’m the Flash!” These three sentences define why Wally West, the third man to wear the mantle of the Flash, is rated so highly in the DC Pantheon of characters. Firstly the Flash is an everyday person like you and me. No other character in comics (with the possible exception of Peter Parker) has been depicted with the level of humanity that exists in Wally. He has been developed from a brash teenager to a strong reliable man. The Flash’s personal life has been shown for all to see from the highs of marriage to the lows of losing his unborn children. This however doesn’t mean that the character’s super powers become second string in what makes him popular. As the Flash, Wally West has extended the possibilities of super speed beyond the nerdy fast running and into the ability to manipulate speed and velocity on any level. Whilst humanity and great powers make the character endearingly popular it is the third part of the statement that truly defines the character’s historical significance on this list. Wally West is the Flash. Period. Losing the Kid Flash tag, stepping out of his Uncle’s shadow, earning respect from the super hero community and being the only sidekick to fully graduate Wally has taken the legacy before him and run with it.

<center><hr width=75%></center>

#12 Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/12.jpg" align="left" alt="Nightwing (Dick Grayson)"> First Appearance (as Robin I): Detective Comics #38
First Appearance (as Nightwing): Tales of the Teen Titans #44
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane
Reimagined by: Marv Wolfman & George Perez

Dick Grayson’s life has been an amazing one, form a very young age. He was raised as an acrobat in Haley’s Circus, and after the death of his parents, he was taken in by Bruce Wayne, and took on the heroic identity of Robin, the Boy Wonder. He shared adventures with Batman, Superman, and his fellow young heroes as a founding member of the Teen Titans. But boys grow up, and Dick needed to find his own name and his own place in the world. And to do this, he had to take on a new name. He chose the name of Nightwing, and went out to his own man. Dick would lead the Titans, would finally come to terms with Batman, and serve as a mentor and big brother to Tim Drake, who had taken on the mantle of Robin. Finally pulling himself from the shadow of the Bat, Dick took on his own city, Blüdhaven, and became a hero in his own right. Dick Grayson is one of those characters that is a part of the public consciousness, even if he’s better known as Robin in most circles. But he has received his own comic as Nightwing, and even appeared in the latter episodes of the animated Batman series in his new guise. His evolution to Nightwing is a clear sign that the DCU changes and grows, that the heroes, while iconic, are characters who find their own way.

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#11 Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/11.jpg" align="left" alt="Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)">First appearance: More Fun Comics #73
Created by: Mort Weisinger and George Papp
Reimagined by: Dennis O’Neil and Neal Adams

When he first appeared in the Golden Age, Green Arrow seemed like little more than a brightly clad swashbuckling version of Batman. Billionaire crime fighter with an orphaned ward as his sidekick, arrow themed vehicles, even a cave HQ underneath his mansion. He was a merry modern day Robin Hood. But then came Dennis O’Neil, who would redefine Oliver Queen for decades to come. No longer a wealthy smiling adventurer, Green Arrow was now an angry and defiant rabble rouser who had lost his fortune and thought that the Justice League should also stand for social justice. He was suddenly the kind of guy who would stand toe to toe with Superman, nothing but a quiver of trick arrows to back him up, and tell him he was full of it. For years, DC’s heroes were a perfect and happy group of friends and the worst problem in the world was an occasional bank robbery. Now there was a voice of social conscience, a character who saw how unjust the world was and wasn’t above confronting poverty, racism, the environment or drug abuse. And even better…he’s flawed! Completely and totally fallible. Self righteous, judgmental, womanizing. He has cheated on his love Black Canary multiple times. He fathered an illegitimate son, Connor, who now serves by his side as the second Green Arrow. When his first ward Roy was revealed to be a junkie, Ollie’s response wasn’t compassion but rage. And when his newest ward Mia was revealed to be HIV positive, his response was ignorance instead of sympathy. But Ollie is still a man of great heart and conviction who has built a family for himself, unintentional and dysfunctional though it may be. He is often the most human perspective in the DC Universe. And best of all…he makes a mean bowl of chili.

<center><hr width=75%></center>

Join us next time for the biggy. The top ten characters of the DCU of all time, and watch ComiX-Fan all month long for [url=http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32203]more anniversary goodness! (]Part 2[/url)


#12, 14, 17, 24, 26, 30: Matt Lazorwitz
#11, 19, 22, 28: Jordan T. Maxwell
#16, 25, 27: Dylan McKay
#15, 18, 29: Raul Grau
#21: Alex Groff
#13: Dan Hancock
#23: Jon Hancock
#20: Al Harahap
Editor: Jon Hancock
Columns Editor: Joel Phillips
Editor in Chief: Al Harahap
Co-Publisher: Brian Wilkinson
Publisher: Eric J. Moreels


<center>All characters, titles, and likenesses thereof ™ © DC Comics (http://www.dccomics.com) or its licensors,
and are used without permission, not for profit. All other content © original author and ComiX-Fan (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan).</center>

Robb Welch
Feb 20, 2005, 08:17 pm
Plastic Man?


Plastic Man????

Qubic
Feb 20, 2005, 08:17 pm
I'm not sure if I would put Alfred in the top 30 but thats just me.

Jon Hancock
Feb 20, 2005, 08:19 pm
Why not? He's been in cartoons, carried Police Comics, was the first villain to ever reform, is an alternative character who is in a truly original title at the moment, is one of the last throwbacks to the Golden Age, is a key JLA member and has recieved plenty of development on that title.

His humour isn't always great but neither is a lot of "comedy" characters'.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 20, 2005, 08:21 pm
aw man Green Arrow juuuuuuuuuuuuust misses out.

Great list, I personally would swap 21 and 24 but I see how clearly that won't happen. And unlike previous lists you justified even those inclusions that looked a little dodgy (i.e. Alfred made me go what the?, read the entry and totally agreed)

DiabloBlanko
Feb 20, 2005, 09:03 pm
WOW!!! So Guy Gardner and Deadshot are in the top 11, because with some of the people on the list so far it'd be a joke if they're not.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 20, 2005, 09:13 pm
I'm not sure if I would put Alfred in the top 30 but thats just me.

Why not? He's been in cartoons, carried Police Comics, was the first villain to ever reform, is an alternative character who is in a truly original title at the moment, is one of the last throwbacks to the Golden Age, is a key JLA member and has recieved plenty of development on that title.

His humour isn't always great but neither is a lot of "comedy" characters'.

wow...didn't realize Alfred was that cool. :)

WOW!!! So Guy Gardner and Deadshot are in the top 11, because with some of the people on the list so far it'd be a joke if they're not.

well...first, it'll be the top ten. and second...Guy Gardner and Deadshot? aww...thanks, i needed that.

Al Harahap
Feb 20, 2005, 10:43 pm
Why not? He's been in cartoons, carried Police Comics, was the first villain to ever reform, is an alternative character who is in a truly original title at the moment, is one of the last throwbacks to the Golden Age, is a key JLA member and has recieved plenty of development on that title.

His humour isn't always great but neither is a lot of "comedy" characters'.

Yeah. Alex Ross had a lot to do with Plas' revival, and there was this thing he mentioned that has really stuck in my mind. It's about how Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Plastic Man are the 5 icons of the DCU representing (I'm paraphrasing here, but it goes something like) adventure, mystery, myth, magic, and humour. Now, I know there are plenty of other characters who can supply humour, but without what Plas offered (and sometimes, just by himself), the DCU is just one big overly serious bummer.

Great list, I personally would swap 21 and 24 but I see how clearly that won't happen. And unlike previous lists you justified even those inclusions that looked a little dodgy (i.e. Alfred made me go what the?, read the entry and totally agreed)

Me too, at first. But really, the "Gotham Knights" would be lost without Alfred.

trinh
Feb 20, 2005, 11:14 pm
#16 Catwoman (Selina Kyle)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/16.jpg" align="left" alt="Catwoman (Selina Kyle)">First Appearance: Batman #1
Created by: Bob Kane
Catwoman and Batman's relationship is the first example of hero/villainess sexual tension, which even between the two of them has become pretty poor.

become pretty poor? what are you talking about?

they've evolved FAR past the "sexual tension" stage.


#12 Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/12.jpg" align="left" alt="Nightwing (Dick Grayson)"> First Appearance (as Robin I): Detective Comics #38
First Appearance (as Nightwing): Tales of the Teen Titans #44
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane

Dick Grayson is one of those characters that is a part of the public consciousness, even if he’s better known as Robin in most circles.

dick grayson known by the public? i don't think so.

they might know who robin is, but they don't know robin's real name.

robin is just an analogy for #2 anyway, people don't necessarily associate "robin" with the comics.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 20, 2005, 11:51 pm
"Aquaman has lost his wife countless times..."

yeesh, you think she'd take the hint. ;)

Anand Khatri
Feb 21, 2005, 12:13 am
22? 22?!?!?!?!? Rorsache is definetly better than Nightwing! Hell Alfred should be #22 and Nightwing #30!

Tan K.
Feb 21, 2005, 12:15 am
I have loved the list thus far, BUT this is the first one that I feel went...wrong. First, Bugs Bunny (if you include the cartoon) should be no higher than 20. Second, I cannot see how Black Canary, Oracle, and Spider Jerusalem can even come close to being in front of Hal Jordan and I'm sure a few others on other lists. Birds of Prey and non-mainstream comics is a fan fave for Comix-Fan's admins. I think that really played a part in their placements and takes away from the objectivity/validity of this list.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 21, 2005, 12:37 am
riiiiight...because Birds of Prey and Transmetropolitan are such cult underground faves with no mainstream audience or recognition whatsoever...:rolleyes:

in related news...just found out through Bad Signal that Spider Jerusalem's predecessor, the great Hunter S. Thompson, is dead. there aren't words...

Swandogg
Feb 21, 2005, 01:12 am
Why not? He's been in cartoons, carried Police Comics, was the first villain to ever reform, is an alternative character who is in a truly original title at the moment, is one of the last throwbacks to the Golden Age, is a key JLA member and has recieved plenty of development on that title.

Alfred a key member of the JLA? Huh?

I have loved the list thus far, BUT this is the first one that I feel went...wrong. First, Bugs Bunny (if you include the cartoon) should be no higher than 20. Second, I cannot see how Black Canary, Oracle, and Spider Jerusalem can even come close to being in front of Hal Jordan and I'm sure a few others on other lists. Birds of Prey and non-mainstream comics is a fan fave for Comix-Fan's admins. I think that really played a part in their placements and takes away from the objectivity/validity of this list.

I agree, Black Canary ahead all of the main Green Lantern's, Hal and Kyle?

Douglas Cuckler
Feb 21, 2005, 01:23 am
[sarcastic vent]This list is so wrong, and everything I think is right [/sarcastic vent] :ugh: :D .

All joking aside, Congrats to you guys for doing a great job so far. I've really enjoyed this list. But...If Wonder Woman isn't #1, then I'll use my Chaos Magic on the entire site. :?

raul grau
Feb 21, 2005, 01:28 am
I cannot see how Black Canary, Oracle, and Spider Jerusalem can even come close to being in front of Hal Jordan and I'm sure a few others on other lists. Birds of Prey and non-mainstream comics is a fan fave for Comix-Fan's admins. I think that really played a part in their placements and takes away from the objectivity/validity of this list.

I have to disagree, Tan. I am not at all a fan of the Birds of Prey (I've probably read one issue total of that series), but when I voted, I placed both Black Canary and Oracle rather high. Oracle was Batgirl, then was crippled in one of the most memorable moments in DC history, became one of the few paraplegic heroes, and is now fundamentally the linchpin of the DCU. BC is a second generational hero, longtime member of the JLoA, looks great in fishnets, connects to the JSA, and got through Longbow with her psyche intact. Even ignoring Birds, I feel they both deserve high slots... though it is a bit funny that they ended up back to back on this list. :)

As for Plastic Man, I am surprised that no one has mentioned his live action/animated show. That alone should give him special marks... those goggles were so cool. ;)

dick grayson known by the public? i don't think so. they might know who robin is, but they don't know robin's real name.

Remember Death in the Family? People who had not read comic books in years (some probably never had) went insane because they thought DC had killed Dick Grayson. Even if they did not remember his real name (and anyone who watched Burt Ward as Robin probably does), he is obviously meaningful to their lives.

robin is just an analogy for #2 anyway

Ok... I'll bite... what are you talking about? :?

- Raul

Pong
Feb 21, 2005, 01:56 am
hmmm... agree or disagree, thanks for the great read, staff writers! can't wait till the top 10, which'll prolly be batman, superman.. and METAMORPHO THE ELEMENT MAN! or better yet, his "baby" SHIFT! :dance:

wait, scratch that. shift is just a morph from exiles clone now... hmph

hjwilson
Feb 21, 2005, 02:06 am
Hi guys long time reader, first time poster.

Interesting list so far. Glad to see Lucifer made the cut. I think most can tell what the top ten is going to include (althought not where). The trinity will be there and I'm betting Joker, Lex, Constantine, and Morpheus will be there.

Dark horse picks would be Swamp Thing and maybe Barry Allen.

Tom 2TUM Toner
Feb 21, 2005, 02:10 am
Alfred a key member of the JLA? Huh?

i beleive Jon was defending Plastic Man, not Alfred.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 21, 2005, 02:16 am
Alfred a key member of the JLA? Huh?

he was referring to Plastic Man...or did you think that Alfred also carried Police Comics and was a reformed villain currently in his own solo title as well?


I agree, Black Canary ahead all of the main Green Lantern's, Hal and Kyle?

yep. what's wrong with that?

Dylan McKay
Feb 21, 2005, 06:06 am
Plastic Man?


Plastic Man????

I think I made my case pretty clear in the article, but just to add, remember, this is celebrating 70 years of comics, and for me personally, Jack Cole's work on this character really influenced my vote. For me, there is very few comics more than 25 years old that hold up today, and his run is about 60 years old and holds up today.

WOW!!! So Guy Gardner and Deadshot are in the top 11, because with some of the people on the list so far it'd be a joke if they're not.

It is helpful if you state specific examples of problems. As for Deadshot and Guy, we tried to have more objective criteria than personal favourites, otherwise The Question wouldn't have appeared yet...

And even then, for Squad members, I'd put Amanda Waller and Captain Bommerang before Deadshot...

become pretty poor? what are you talking about?

they've evolved FAR past the "sexual tension" stage.


Sorry, I should have said had become, I think Jeph Loeb's work on the pair was great.

22? 22?!?!?!?!? Rorsache is definetly better than Nightwing! Hell Alfred shouldn't be #22 and Nightwing #30!

Dick Grayson, I believe, is the 3rd longest continiously published character in comics, if anything, comming in 12th might be low. And while Rorschach is a great character, I can't help but think that putting him higher would have been a sign of the missinterpretation that has plagued the character...

I have loved the list thus far, BUT this is the first one that I feel went...wrong. First, Bugs Bunny (if you include the cartoon) should be no higher than 20. Second, I cannot see how Black Canary, Oracle, and Spider Jerusalem can even come close to being in front of Hal Jordan and I'm sure a few others on other lists. Birds of Prey and non-mainstream comics is a fan fave for Comix-Fan's admins. I think that really played a part in their placements and takes away from the objectivity/validity of this list.

We did not include the cartoon with Bugs.

The biggest problem the Green Lanterns faced IMO is their own fan base, the GL franchise has been plagued with problems for a very long time. Long before Hal was replaced the franchise was troubled and has never really been on stable ground. Plus, Hal is REALLY boring.

I think Raul defended Canary and Oracle well.

As for Spider, I think he may be a bit high as well, but the fact that Vertigo has succeeded in ways that it never should have been able to has boosted the characters that enabled Vertigo to be the publisher that breaks all expectations of what American comics contain.

Al Harahap
Feb 21, 2005, 07:53 am
Re: Hal Jordan

I don't think Hal deserves any higher than where he is because he's just a convoluted mess now. If we did this one year ago, I'd have put him in the top 10 easy, especially after his Spectre series and Darwyn Cooke's humanistic portrayal of his pre-GL days in New Frontier. But now... :stars:

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 21, 2005, 08:02 am
[sarcastic vent]This list is so wrong, and everything I think is right [/sarcastic vent] :ugh: :D .

All joking aside, Congrats to you guys for doing a great job so far. I've really enjoyed this list. But...If Wonder Woman isn't #1, then I'll use my Chaos Magic on the entire site. :?

Nu, uh. Morpheus.

Morpheus better be number 1 (shakes fist menacingly)

So whose left for the top spot, obvious choices are

Supes
Bats
Wonder Woman
Morpheus
Joker
Lex

who all pretty much have to be in there

Biggies who haven't made the cut yet

Swamp Thing
Constantine
Barry Allen
any members of the new teen titans other than Wally and Dick (Jericho and Raven won't make it but conceivably could)
Doomsday (lol, but he is a biggie)
Death

Long shots
The Comedian
The Psycho Pirate (pretty much all his post crisis and crisis era appearances have been great stories)
Ipulse/Kid Flash (my personal favourite DC character)

MarkAndrew
Feb 21, 2005, 11:57 am
So how does "Top 70 Characters of All Time" translate into "Completely ignoring Everything Published Before 1980, at least as far as Voting is Concerned?"

Although it's been an interesting read and left me with some comics to track down.

But, heck, I'm Easy. Give Seargent Rock his rightful place in the Top 10, and all is forgiven.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 21, 2005, 12:02 pm
because god knows the post 1980 versions of Captain Marvel have been staggering critical and sales successes.

NMBradbury
Feb 21, 2005, 12:52 pm
Green Arrow doesn't get top 10!? This is a disgrace! I'm never talking to any of you ever again.

OK, Predicted Top 10:

1. Superman
2. Batman
3.Morpheus
4. Wonder Woman
5. Lex Luthor (unless he's no. 1. in a shock twist that would actually be really cool)
6. Constantine
7.Death
8.Barry Allen
9.The Joker,
10. Swamp Thing

But still.... that means on this list you have not featured:
Cassidy
Starr
Tulip
Wildcat
Elongated Man
Mr Terrific
Cyborg
Arsenal
Raven
Starfire
Bart Allen (Impulse/ Kid Flash)
Superboy
Wonder Girl
Black Adam
The Atom (both of them)
Captain Atom
The Sandman (the other one)
Mr. Miracle
Metamorpho
Guy Gardner
John Stewart
Surely some of these should have been top 20.

Max_)(_xaM
Feb 21, 2005, 12:59 pm
Plastic Man (Eel O'Brien)
Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
Aquaman (Orin)
Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)
Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
Catwoman (Selina Kyle)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
The Flash (Wally West)
Nightwing (Dick Grayson)
Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)

I'd give my right arm for a Justice League with this lineup from those profiled above.

And do you think Dick Grayson would've ranked higher had he still been Robin?

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 21, 2005, 01:12 pm
nah, part of the appeal of the character is that he changed. One of the strengths of D.C. is that they allow characters to age and be replaced and younger characters to grow up much more than Marvel. What makes Grayson such an appealing character is the move from boy wonder to teenager who argues with batman constantly to being his own man, neither a sidekick nor the next bat-man he has left his own legacy.

and NMbRadbury when you put it that way wow! Grant Morrisson and Tim Hunter made the list but not Cassidy and probably not the comedian, frankly that just tees me off. (shakes fist menacingly)

Top 10 as I see it then

1. Morpheus - potentially the most interesting character in any comic from any publisher ever
2. Batman - much, much more interesting than Superman who's only "character" traits are his iconic status and moral decency. Supes is the archetype by which everyone else is measured, bats is in many ways the opposite of supes but the more interesting one.
3. Superman
4. Lex Luthor - What supes is to heroes Lex is to villains
5. Wonder Woman - just for pulling female characters out of the sex/damsel/victim role (and being about the only female character never to lapse into it, although the secretary thing was jsut embarassing)
6. The Joker - another archetype in the bound up with the hero vein about the only villain ever to be completely insane and have no motivation other than that.
7. Swamp Thing - Like Morpheus and Superman he struggles with awesome power but he didn't start with it. The conflict of humanity gaining power that worked so well with doc manhattan but swamp thing does the oppostie in the end and moves from plant TO human.
8. Constantine - cos he's cool
9. dunno really - Barry Allen possibly but i'm leaving this space open for long shots and surprises
10. Death.

fede_bc
Feb 21, 2005, 03:21 pm
i really hope that numer one is not captain america.

it would be really obvious :bleep:

Dylan McKay
Feb 21, 2005, 03:45 pm
But still.... that means on this list you have not featured:
Cassidy
Starr
Tulip
Wildcat
Elongated Man
Mr Terrific
Cyborg
Arsenal
Raven
Starfire
Bart Allen (Impulse/ Kid Flash)
Superboy
Wonder Girl
Black Adam
The Atom (both of them)
Captain Atom
The Sandman (the other one)
Mr. Miracle
Metamorpho
Guy Gardner
John Stewart
Surely some of these should have been top 20.

Honestly, Arsenal is the only one on the list I would have even concidered top 20, and even then, I'd be shocked if he was top 30...

Most of those are fringe picks that while they could have easily fit in the 70-51 slot, none of them had to.

It's funny, you mention Cassidy, Tulip and Starr because of all the Preacher support characters, it was Saint of Killers that ever so barely didn't make the cut.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 21, 2005, 04:51 pm
i really hope that numer one is not captain america.

it would be really obvious :bleep:

If that was sarcasm than hurrah, very funny.

However if you honestly thought Captain America would be number 1 then please go smack your head against a table right now, it would do everyone a favour.


oh and refresh my memory, did Jesse make this list?

also not on the list so far

Sergeant Rock
ANY member of the Doom Patrol
Shade the Changing Man
or Lenny
Beast Boy
Hob Galding
Psycho Pirate

Swandogg
Feb 21, 2005, 04:55 pm
he was referring to Plastic Man...or did you think that Alfred also carried Police Comics and was a reformed villain currently in his own solo title as well?

Alright, yeah I thought that was a little awkward, I just saw the answer directly under a question about Alfred being here and then no Quote tag to reference who he was talking about.

yep. what's wrong with that?
Green Lantern is arguably DC Comics fourth biggest icon behind the big three. Both characters have a tremendous fan following, they have carried a solo title for a span of a least a decade that has consisently been a top DC seller. I know this isn't a star power list but I just don't see how Black Canary is a more meaningful character and has meant more to DC then any of the Green Lanterns.

evilomar
Feb 21, 2005, 05:19 pm
Good list, nice to see some names I didn't expect. I think its funny how some people bust you're balls over a list, that in the end is nothing more but a matter of opinion. Go fanboys go!

ceediddy
Feb 21, 2005, 05:30 pm
Green Lantern is arguably DC Comics fourth biggest icon behind the big three. Both characters have a tremendous fan following, they have carried a solo title for a span of a least a decade that has consisently been a top DC seller. I know this isn't a star power list but I just don't see how Black Canary is a more meaningful character and has meant more to DC then any of the Green Lanterns.

I agree what is the criteria for the ranking? I was spurprised to see some of the names ahead of Lois Lane. But Black Canary ahead of Kyle, Hal and even Alan is almost funny.

Jon Hancock
Feb 21, 2005, 07:47 pm
I meant Plas not Alfred. :(

Re: Hal. I think he has always been a bland character. He was only interesting when his flaws were explored and now they've been removed again he's back to bland.

As for the reading of ComiX-Fan's staff. Transmetropolitan is hardly obscure and I loath Birds of Prey. Yet I'm happy with Canary being that high up the list as she's the most developed female in the DCU IMO and an integral part of the DCU

ignoring pre 1980 I'm confused by. If it was only post crisis then Plas would be way down the list.

I looked over the list of people that were "missed." Didn't think that any of them deserved a place. A few came close but I don't think there's many changes I'd make to the final 70. Maybe I'd have a little bit more Wildstorm love.

Ryan Day
Feb 21, 2005, 07:55 pm
Re: Hal. I think he has always been a bland character. He was only interesting when his flaws were explored and now they've been removed again he's back to bland.

You know a character's bland when the two most significant stories about him consist of: a) Green Arrow pointing out what a square he is; and b) going insane and killing a bunch of people.

EvolutionIceman
Feb 21, 2005, 10:29 pm
Hal, Wally, Dick, and Rorschach should all have been Top Ten characters. Green Arrow is borderline, but 11 sounds good for him. Catwoman should not be ranked higher than Nightwing or Tim Drake though. But without them, I guess the Top ten should look something like this:
1. Superman(no contest)
2. Batman(ditto)
3. Flash(Barry Allen)(see above)
4. Morpheus
5. Lex Luthor
6. Joker
7. Wonder Woman
8. Death
9. Swamp Thing
10. Constantine

Jon Hancock
Feb 21, 2005, 10:34 pm
I'd say Wally deserved a top ten too. But then looking at the top ten....I don't know who I'd take out.

I don't understand what Hal Jordan has done to deserve Top Ten status. He's not even the most publically known Green Lantern. I'd say that has to be John Stewart following the cartoon.

Tan K.
Feb 21, 2005, 10:44 pm
riiiiight...because Birds of Prey and Transmetropolitan are such cult underground faves with no mainstream audience or recognition whatsoever...:rolleyes:



Come on, Jordan. I am not taking about the characters in and of themselves. I am talking about them in comparison to the others on the list.

I have to disagree, Tan. I am not at all a fan of the Birds of Prey (I've probably read one issue total of that series), but when I voted, I placed both Black Canary and Oracle rather high. Oracle was Batgirl, then was crippled in one of the most memorable moments in DC history, became one of the few paraplegic heroes, and is now fundamentally the linchpin of the DCU. BC is a second generational hero, longtime member of the JLoA, looks great in fishnets, connects to the JSA, and got through Longbow with her psyche intact. Even ignoring Birds, I feel they both deserve high slots... though it is a bit funny that they ended up back to back on this list. :)

As for Plastic Man, I am surprised that no one has mentioned his live action/animated show. That alone should give him special marks... those goggles were so cool. ;)

- Raul



We did not include the cartoon with Bugs.

The biggest problem the Green Lanterns faced IMO is their own fan base, the GL franchise has been plagued with problems for a very long time. Long before Hal was replaced the franchise was troubled and has never really been on stable ground. Plus, Hal is REALLY boring.

I think Raul defended Canary and Oracle well.


Re: Hal Jordan

I don't think Hal deserves any higher than where he is because he's just a convoluted mess now. If we did this one year ago, I'd have put him in the top 10 easy, especially after his Spectre series and Darwyn Cooke's humanistic portrayal of his pre-GL days in New Frontier. But now... :stars:

Thanks for the explanation about Bugs. Now I understand.

As for GL, I can understand how some may have thought of Hal as boring for a bit. However, using some of the same logic that was used for Oracle (importance to the DCU, Batgirl popularity) and Black Canary (general placement in history), here is my argument.

Batgirl in her day was blandish. Just like no one really was ooh'ing and ah'ing over Supergirl before her death in Crisis, Batgirl was not awe inspiring either in comicdom. Even major followers were not as strong as some core groups or hero followers.

Black Canary has a great history and is connected to major players. However, separate her from GA. Who is she? To me she is the equivalent of Black Widow or (damn forgot the others) who really wouldn't rate a top 20 in the MU...anyway, I have no problem with her being a top 30 or 50, but if she went off the deep end and snapped or was killed I really don't think she would get anywhere near the buzz that others who have died before would have. The DCU would be sad without her, but she has not necessarily been an impact player. She has benefitted from being GA's woman and as Raul said fishnets.

Hal's GL on the other hand....sure at times during the 80's, other than Emerald Dawn I, he was almost like Colossus under Lobdell (useless and lost). However, within the realm of the DCU, he has the most powerful weapon, is the poster child for an entire Corps of heroes, is one of the linchpins of the entire DC iconic Universe, is the representative within the DCU of courage.

Then when you add Coast City, killing the entire Corps, Parallax, remaking the entire universe, saving the entire universe at the expense of his life, becoming the Spectre, and now returning as THE GL...all of which didn't occur over a 2 year period. It's been nearly a decade of this level of prominence.....

THEN you add the amount of hoopla and humungoid excitement his return has generated in the comic book industry (sales, crazy and sane fans, etc.) I think it is safe to assume that Black Canary or Oracle wouldn't garner anywhere near this much attention in similar circumstances. Even a more high profile Supergirl with the creative star power didn't create this much buzz (sales were booming, but buzz is something else) ----> he deserves a higher spot than Black Canary or Oracle.


BUT...that's my opinion. Keep working the magic, guys/gals.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 21, 2005, 11:36 pm
Come on, Jordan. I am not taking about the characters in and of themselves. I am talking about them in comparison to the others on the list.


so you're saying those of us who voted didn't compare them to other characters on this list properly? I mean, your last post basically said they were only this high because the staff itself has some kind of bias towards the books and the characters. untrue. there are plenty on staff who don't like Birds of Prey and have never even picked up Transmetropolitan. so taking that into account, what does it say that the characters STILL ranked this high? and my point was showing that it's not just those of us on staff who love those books who are fans of them...those are top selling and critically acclaimed books. Hell, i've got plenty of friends who don't read comics but are totally in love with Spider Jerusalem. Massive crossover appeal there. so it's ludicrous to say that they're only this high on the list because of some non existent bias among the staff.

Cyberman
Feb 22, 2005, 12:11 am
Rorschach is too low & Lois Lane is too high, and I don't think I'm going to see Herr Starr, Jesse, or Cassidy on this list, but it's still pretty good.

PS- I really hope Batman beats Superman on the list, as Batman's consistently proven to be the better character. I also hope Joker beats Lex Luthor.

EvolutionIceman
Feb 22, 2005, 12:33 am
Rorschach is too low & Lois Lane is too high, and I don't think I'm going to see Herr Starr, Jesse, or Cassidy on this list, but it's still pretty good.

PS- I really hope Batman beats Superman on the list, as Batman's consistently proven to be the better character. I also hope Joker beats Lex Luthor.

Batman wouldn't even exist without Superman. And as cool as Batman is, Superman is FREAKING SUPERMAN. He's the father of all heroes, the most kickass guy ever when he's written well, and he's recognized more than anyone else in the world. To have anyone except Superman at number one would, quite frankly, be a farce.

Tan K.
Feb 22, 2005, 12:57 am
so you're saying those of us who voted didn't compare them to other characters on this list properly? I mean, your last post basically said they were only this high because the staff itself has some kind of bias towards the books and the characters. untrue. there are plenty on staff who don't like Birds of Prey and have never even picked up Transmetropolitan. so taking that into account, what does it say that the characters STILL ranked this high? and my point was showing that it's not just those of us on staff who love those books who are fans of them...those are top selling and critically acclaimed books. Hell, i've got plenty of friends who don't read comics but are totally in love with Spider Jerusalem. Massive crossover appeal there. so it's ludicrous to say that they're only this high on the list because of some non existent bias among the staff.


I did come across pretty harsh on that post, which I do apologize for. I was grumpy at the time. My apologies.

However, I still think (as is expected by any normal group) to have some sort of personal preference play into this type of voting. I don't think there was a bias or any purposeful measures to get personal faves into high positions. Most of the list is reasonable IMO. However, I think that those three are overranked.

From my interactions and readings over the past few years, there is a high regard (nothing wrong with that) for non-mainsteam books and Gail Simone (nothing wrong again) and some of the creators of these lists contain personnel with those preferences. It was bound to leak in at some place or another. But as is the premise for these types of sites, I saw something I didn't think made sense and disliked. Then I created an unfounded theory.

The Avengers and X-Men lists from a couple years ago had the same thing happen. I remember the negative feedback for not having had certain artists in the top 10 X-artists, and those complaints were fair. The lists were filled with objectivity based on personal preferences.

Jon Hancock
Feb 22, 2005, 01:00 am
No offense Tan but you're on staff and I don't remember you voting on the list. It's all well and good to complain when you've not voted ;)

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 22, 2005, 01:12 am
I did come across pretty harsh on that post, which I do apologize for. I was grumpy at the time. My apologies.

However, I still think (as is expected by any normal group) to have some sort of personal preference play into this type of voting. I don't think there was a bias or any purposeful measures to get personal faves into high positions. Most of the list is reasonable IMO. However, I think that those three are overranked.

From my interactions and readings over the past few years, there is a high regard (nothing wrong with that) for non-mainsteam books and Gail Simone (nothing wrong again) and some of the creators of these lists contain personnel with those preferences. It was bound to leak in at some place or another. But as is the premise for these types of sites, I saw something I didn't think made sense and disliked. Then I created an unfounded theory.

The Avengers and X-Men lists from a couple years ago had the same thing happen. I remember the negative feedback for not having had certain artists in the top 10 X-artists, and those complaints were fair. The lists were filled with objectivity based on personal preferences.

you'll pardon me, but you're still accusing us of the same thing. (and how can something be filled with objectivity based on personal preferences? that seems contradictory). a LOT of people with differing tastes and opinions nominated and voted on ALL these lists, as they did back during the X-Men and Avengers events. you have a cross section of the comics reading audience selecting here, so it is totally impossible for a single bias or preference to play part. so we have some sort of collective bias? sorry, but if that many people with differing opinions have a bias towards something, then it's probably pretty damn good. if you've noticed a trend towards people liking Gail Simone's work or digging Vertigo, then it's probably not just a trend on the staff. so Spider Jerusalem is ranked higher than you'd like, that MUST mean we on the staff are playing favorites. seriously, you know better. These lists are the compromised opinions of every staff member who participated and to say they are anything else is just flat out wrong. Someone voted Spider and the Birds of Prey higher than they are here. someone else voted them lower. they ended up where they are.

do i agree with the entire list? no. There are no Invisibles or 100 Bullets characters. The only Sandman characters who made it are Endless, and there's a wealth of other characters who deserve it. and i think it's a shame that Bugs and Daffy make the list while Elijah Snow goes unrecognized. and i have to shake my head whenever i see the names Lobo or Judge Dredd on this list. but this isn't Jordan's top 70. it isn't Joel Phillips' top 70 or Jon Hancock's top 70. and no, it's isn't Tan K.'s top 70. a lot of people worked hard and put a lot of thought into selecting these characters and writing up their entries. and you can disagree all you want, but saying this was somehow conducted in an undemocratic or biased fashion is to pay short shrift to all that hard work.

and i have to agree with Jon...you're a staff member and were available to participate, so if things didn't come out the way you wanted them you have no one to blame but yourself. everyone else can just call us elitists. (that's the new fashionable thing to call us on staff, right? we've gone from fascists to elitists, correct? i like to keep up with the times...)

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 22, 2005, 04:34 am
guys, surely the whole point of these lists is to prompt discussion, disagreement and arguments.

People were always going to complain about the final rankings, but hey that's what you expected. And it's fun, lets dial down the antagonism a notch please.

and on that note EvolutionIceman ARE YOU MAD! Batman is the far more interesting character time and time again. Superman as a characters is actually very uninteresting, it's the icon status, the norm that he represents that's so important. That's why the best Superman stories are elseworlds or show a changed superman - because the only interesting thing you can do with him is see how the iconic qualities differ.

Besides Batman is more "mystery man" than super-hero, his direct inspiration is the shadow.

and Morpheus is better than both of 'em.

Al Harahap
Feb 22, 2005, 04:40 am
Y'know, I don't mind the list being ripped apart and people conveying their opinions strongly at who should be where. In fact, I think it's great for comics when we as readers get passionate about subjects like this. Discussion, debate, and argument is wonderful because it stimulates. But to make a personal accusation of the staff having a bias that's not there is just not cool.

First of all, Gail Simone is a POSTER favourite around these parts, which may or may not include individual staffers in their capacity as fellow readers and fans. It's their right. But that has little to do with Oracle and Black Canary as individual characters separate from the team and the book, and I resent any notion that our staffers can't separate their fanboyisms to make a list as objective as possible, especially when many of them have expressed their personal wants that don't agree with the final results throughout the various lists. Truth be told, if anything, many staffers aren't even too fond of the rampant T&A in Birds of Prey.

I saw Batgirl as a cute female version of Robin and not much more, so her time in that costume is so minor compared to what she is today. After she was paralysed, she wasn't reverted back into her status quo like so many other superhero characters that I wouldn't know where to begin, nor was she shoved into limbo like others after retirement. Instead, she has become the most resourceful (able to be a behind-the-scenes supporting character in any DCU book, and does so regularly, as Raul says, she's the lynchpin of the DCU superhero community) and the most admirable (overcoming her adversity because she's determined to keep fighting her cause despite her condition). No other mainstream DCU character can boast those achievements. If anything, she should be even higher.

As for Black Canary being DC's equivalent to Black Widow, I don't see it. Is Black Widow a second generation superhero who's burdened by the fear of not living up to the legend? Is Black Widow a founding member of the Avengers like Canary is the JLA? Did Black Widow become a big sister figure to a hero's sidekick and help him to kick heroin addiction like Canary to Green Arrow and Arsenal? Is Black Widow haunted by memories of rape? Well, they do both have "Black" in their codenames, so maybe they really are equivalent.

Of course, no one has to agree with these justifications or the ones in their respective entries in the list, but I don't appreciate the accusation of superficial bias. It's not like our process was "Ooh, we love Birds of Prey, let's put'em near the top because they wear fishnets and have big bazongas." And of course the "We Heart Birds of Prey" theory totally ignores the fact that Huntress is nowhere to be found on the list. Yes, we have a bias. We love great characters. And I won't apologise for that.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 22, 2005, 05:13 am
guys, surely the whole point of these lists is to prompt discussion, disagreement and arguments.

People were always going to complain about the final rankings, but hey that's what you expected. And it's fun, lets dial down the antagonism a notch please.

i have no problem with people disagreeing with the list and wanting to argue about it. it's when the negativity spreads from the list to those of us who worked really hard on putting it together that i get a little more angry. of course, it's the typical fanboy response. people spend a lot of time and energy putting something together, and the first thing the audience does is rip it to shreds.


and on that note EvolutionIceman ARE YOU MAD! Batman is the far more interesting character time and time again. Superman as a characters is actually very uninteresting, it's the icon status, the norm that he represents that's so important. That's why the best Superman stories are elseworlds or show a changed superman - because the only interesting thing you can do with him is see how the iconic qualities differ.


i'd have to highly disagree. Superman is incredibly interesting when written correctly. an alien who's entire family, race and planet are extinct with him bearing the burden of being the sole survivor. an ultimately powerful being who uses his powers not for selfish gain or advancement, but to help people. A man of dual identities, both the superhero and the man, the alien and the human. A man who's moral but non judgmental, compassionate but protective, idealistic and inspiring. There's great potential there and plenty of writers have used it over the years.

but no, you're right, Batman's sooo much more interesting. and has no icon status whatsoever, no status quo to maintain at all...:P

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 22, 2005, 06:17 am
Well it would be naive of me to state that Batman isn't an Icon, and in fairness to myself that post was written in a semi-whining fanboy style in response to my earlier comments.


I'm not a huge Superman fan I freely admit (I will be picking up All Star Superman though, Morrisson has needed to write big blue for a while now). But here's my take, yes some excellent stories can be told, with supes, in continuity. He has a lot of potential whether it be musing over the issues of power, the philosophies of super-heroing (he works great opposite Green Arrow in this mode for example) or the pain of being an outsider. Sadly thoughout 50+ years of continual publishing this is rarely touched upon. I have read some awesome Superman stories, particularly in JLA where he can settle into a "big heroic guy inspires the rest" role that combines hor and Cap's roles in the Avengers. But the BEST Superman stories don't take place in Man of Steel or Action Comics they take place in Batman and Superman, Kingdom Come, Red Son, Dark Knight Returns or even The Sentry, Watchmen, The Authority and Majestic.

He's at his most interetsing when you simply take the icon of superman and twist it, what if he were a communist, what if he decided to abandon humanity, what if he took over. Hell Mort Wesinger knew this back in the 60's and he used to have Supes turn into a Lion or grow really old. The best Superman stories come from taking the iconic elements and playing with them, often in an attempt to re-examine those elements (which largely are symbolic of the super hero genre as a whole) and see what they really mean.

The possible exception to this is Batman and Superman and JLA where rather than twist him you again look at the iconic elements but this time in comparison to other heroes. How many discussions are borne out of the relationship between Batman and Superman, who really wears a mask, which the liberal and which the conservative, etc. He is a great character but on his own he tends to be a little dull, he doesn't have to be but he does tend to be.

Batman has all the same issues of iconic status, although Batman isn't symbolic of superheroes as a whole like Supes is. But crucially Batman just works better as his own hero. There's about the same amount of inherent drama and conflict in both characters' origins but Bruce's have been done better. You can tell more kind of stories with him, from psychological musing, to political debate, to issues of legacy, to a detective story, to a thriller, to a drug abuse story, to classic super heroics, to a murder mystery. I'm largely heading off into opinion now but while Batman and Supes both can be icons AND interesting characters Supes largely isn't but Batman largely is.


and Morpheus is jsut more interesting than both of them. And more consistently written, and he has creepier eyes than batman, creepy eyes should be it's own criteria.

Dylan McKay
Feb 22, 2005, 06:22 am
I really want to jump into this discussion, but ultimately, lets wait for the top ten. I'll let you in on a shocker, both Superman and Batman do make the top ten. :D

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 22, 2005, 06:23 am
yeah, well, we're not arguing the coolness of Dream here. ;) that's a given.

and no, i think you can still tell great and compelling character driven stories with Superman in continuity. i think Greg Rucka's doing a great job of that right now in Adventures. and while not every writer can be as good as Rucka, they should all at least try. ;)

Alex Guillen
Feb 22, 2005, 10:13 am
I think having alfred makes perfect sense, who do you think took care of bruce wayne when he wanted to become the batman and still takes care of him? he's showed him alot but overall: love. That fatherly love that makes bruce have that human side (however small it is by now) and keeps him on the right path of justice.

Nightwing has really grown into his own but better rankes that rorschac? don't see it either since Rorshac represented the black and white world we live in, good and evil seen through a normal man's eyes.

Abbatoir
Feb 22, 2005, 11:20 am
Very nice list and I'm glad to see Rorscach rated highest of the Watchmen (except Nite-Owl or Comedian who might be in the top ten).
Can I take that head shot and use it as an avatar? I've been looking for a good one for ages.

hjwilson
Feb 22, 2005, 12:22 pm
yeah, well, we're not arguing the coolness of Dream here. ;) that's a given.

and no, i think you can still tell great and compelling character driven stories with Superman in continuity. i think Greg Rucka's doing a great job of that right now in Adventures. and while not every writer can be as good as Rucka, they should all at least try. ;)


Yeah nobody can doubt the fact that Dream deserves to be in the top ten (I would say Death as well) namely because of Sandman, Gaiman managed in part to help elevate the comic form to literature. In my top ten he wouldn't be number one, that would be Batman, but he would be number two or three with Superman taking the other spot. I can easily understand why someone would put Dream at the number one spot though.

As far as Superman goes yes he's a icon. The trinity of he, Batman, and Wonder Woman is so important because they are the most recognizable figures for those who don't read comics. Before the recent wave of movies you could name X-Men to someone and they might could name a few but everyone knows Superman. He's a timeless concept and I don't think he's boring. There's still untapped stories to tell. When he's written well he's great.

DeadmanWade
Feb 22, 2005, 02:22 pm
Goood List I Hope Swampy does end up on the list read the whole moore run recently and just by that i think him and johnny deserve to be in the top ten. And Death and Morpheus in there to....But...what about AMBUSH BUG!!!.... Anyone....come on.....ok ok... I agree... with the people who have listed there top ten predictions in no specfic order... Superman, Batman, Joker, Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Morpheus, Death , Flash (Barry allen...well duh he's the only one left) , John Constantine and Swamp Thing.... Atleast i hope those three from vertigo make it :)

NMBradbury
Feb 22, 2005, 03:49 pm
That big list I posted was meant to say top 70, not top 20. Sorry.

And also, it wasn't really meant to indicate any real dissatisfaction with the list so far. I'd jumble the order a bit in certain cases, but there's not many characters I really don't think should be on the list (Lobo, off the top of my head, is the only one) and only one character, Cassidy, I think should definitely be on the list. I even quite like Judge Dredd (sorry Jordan). I also realise a lot of it is personal taste, for example, I never liked the Joker very much myself, but obviously he's Bats' most popular and famous villain.

Oh, and whoever said Lucifer was Gaiman's creation, I think you'll actually find that he was God's. Though there isn't much of a difference between the two. :halo:

Ryan Day
Feb 22, 2005, 04:13 pm
Oh, and whoever said Lucifer was Gaiman's creation, I think you'll actually find that he was God's. Though there isn't much of a difference between the two. :halo:

Let's split the difference and say John Milton.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 22, 2005, 07:15 pm
Nightwing has really grown into his own but better rankes that rorschac? don't see it either since Rorshac represented the black and white world we live in, good and evil seen through a normal man's eyes.

did we read the same comic book? Rorschach was a disturbed and violent sociopath, not a normal man. he showed the dangers of viewing the world in strictly terms of black and white, of good and evil. his entire warped existence is a condemnation of moral absolutism.

Al Harahap
Feb 22, 2005, 08:10 pm
Very nice list and I'm glad to see Rorscach rated highest of the Watchmen (except Nite-Owl or Comedian who might be in the top ten).
Can I take that head shot and use it as an avatar? I've been looking for a good one for ages.

Major, major update of our avatars coming, including the one you want. There are so many that I want to add that they're taking so long to do. Check back soon. :yeah:

Tan K.
Feb 23, 2005, 12:49 am
No offense Tan but you're on staff and I don't remember you voting on the list. It's all well and good to complain when you've not voted ;)

you'll pardon me, but you're still accusing us of the same thing. (and how can something be filled with objectivity based on personal preferences? that seems contradictory). a LOT of people with differing tastes and opinions nominated and voted on ALL these lists, as they did back during the X-Men and Avengers events. you have a cross section of the comics reading audience selecting here, so it is totally impossible for a single bias or preference to play part. so we have some sort of collective bias? sorry, but if that many people with differing opinions have a bias towards something, then it's probably pretty damn good. if you've noticed a trend towards people liking Gail Simone's work or digging Vertigo, then it's probably not just a trend on the staff. so Spider Jerusalem is ranked higher than you'd like, that MUST mean we on the staff are playing favorites. seriously, you know better. These lists are the compromised opinions of every staff member who participated and to say they are anything else is just flat out wrong. Someone voted Spider and the Birds of Prey higher than they are here. someone else voted them lower. they ended up where they are.

do i agree with the entire list? no. There are no Invisibles or 100 Bullets characters. The only Sandman characters who made it are Endless, and there's a wealth of other characters who deserve it. and i think it's a shame that Bugs and Daffy make the list while Elijah Snow goes unrecognized. and i have to shake my head whenever i see the names Lobo or Judge Dredd on this list. but this isn't Jordan's top 70. it isn't Joel Phillips' top 70 or Jon Hancock's top 70. and no, it's isn't Tan K.'s top 70. a lot of people worked hard and put a lot of thought into selecting these characters and writing up their entries. and you can disagree all you want, but saying this was somehow conducted in an undemocratic or biased fashion is to pay short shrift to all that hard work.

and i have to agree with Jon...you're a staff member and were available to participate, so if things didn't come out the way you wanted them you have no one to blame but yourself. everyone else can just call us elitists. (that's the new fashionable thing to call us on staff, right? we've gone from fascists to elitists, correct? i like to keep up with the times...)

Yeah, I know I had a chance to do stuff, but I have been pretty scarce around here. My fault.

Jordan, your response was exactly what I was saying. My first post on the matter came out guns ablazing, which I apologized for. The second post (which I admit was long, so the translation may have gotten lost), however, was saying I didn't agree for this or that reason. In the end I concluded that like myself, differing opinions yada-yada is a natural part of these types of lists. The second post was not meant to downplay how it came out. Sorry if it sounded like it did.

Plus like Al said, the discussion was fun IMO.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 23, 2005, 12:55 am
yeah, but it's only fun for me if i get pissed...you know that. ;)

Izik
Feb 23, 2005, 05:46 am
Hey guys, love the list.
Reading through the discussion, I saw something about similar lists for the X Men and Avengers. Can somebody give me a link to these?
(I'd post something actually ABOUT the list but I'm mostly just using it as a good reference and as a jumping on point. I'm new to all this DC business. Who's this Superman you keep talking about? Is he some kind of Sentry knock off?)

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 23, 2005, 06:02 am
basically, just scroll down further here in the columns section, where you'll find all of the features we did in 2003 (and boy are there a lot of them!) to celebrate the 40th anniversaries of both the X-Men and the Avengers.

Alex Guillen
Feb 23, 2005, 10:21 am
did we read the same comic book? Rorschach was a disturbed and violent sociopath, not a normal man. he showed the dangers of viewing the world in strictly terms of black and white, of good and evil. his entire warped existence is a condemnation of moral absolutism.
wekk I didn't explain myself well, sorry.
But you're right, he wasn't normal but I meant "normal" as in no superpowers and really in watchmen no one had real powers (well except Dr. Manhattan), most of them are just pople with extraordinary abilities.
But you have to give it to rorschac, he really wanted results against crime, although his philosophy is screwy but then again to him, results mattered, again the general theme of watchmen, does the end really justify the means?

Ryan Day
Feb 23, 2005, 11:09 am
did we read the same comic book? Rorschach was a disturbed and violent sociopath, not a normal man. he showed the dangers of viewing the world in strictly terms of black and white, of good and evil. his entire warped existence is a condemnation of moral absolutism.

I don't think he was a "condemnation" of moral absolutism any more than Ozymandias is a glorification of "The Ends Justify the Means". Rorschach may have been a sociopath, but he was the only one who refused to allow a Utopia built on lies and the slaughter of millions of innocent people.

Watchmen was less a question of morals than it was of worldview: Rorschach was trying to save the world by beating up rapists and murderers; Ozymandias didn't think that accomplished anything more than beating up a bunch of rapists and murderers. I'm not sure you can say Rorschach was "wrong" without saying Ozymandias was right; I'm not entirely comfortable with either.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 23, 2005, 12:49 pm
The other factor in Rorsrach is that while we scorn him for bring a socio-path he is the one who figures out that thre is something deeper behind The Comedian's death.

You can attribute it to paranoia, and even point out that there was no "mask killer" per se but while everyone dismisses him Rorscarch is ultimately right.

What this does is lend credence to his behaviour, maybe Rorsharch has some insight into the world that we don't. Much like his name sake the same situation means different things to different people and the implication is that maybe Rorscharch is the only one who really understands the world. Just like at other times we're led to belive Ozymandias and the Comedian are the ones who understand it truly. And the Character who really does understand (Manhattan) cannot comprehend it or explain it.

And at the same time the glorified vigiliante of comics turns out to be an ugly little man with a mother fixation.

Watchmen like all great works of literature defies one single "meaning" or interpretation. Do we read Rorscarch as a condemnation or glorification of absolutist philosophy, vigilantism and saving the world by upholding the status quo. Ultimately whichever you personally pick he serves as both. You can't say he was wrong anymore than you can say Veidt was wrong he exists to prompt thought not to argue.

Abbatoir
Feb 23, 2005, 02:00 pm
Major, major update of our avatars coming, including the one you want. There are so many that I want to add that they're taking so long to do. Check back soon. :yeah:

Thanks, Al!

Ok, here's who I want to see in the ten (no real order). Batman, John Constantine, Jack Frost (Invisibles), Guy Gardner (I'm serious), Elongated Man, Metamorpho and anyone from Preacher.
People who should be in the ten but I know aren't: Rorschach, Flash III, Jesse Custer, Booster Gold, Nikolai Dante.

Ryan Day
Feb 23, 2005, 02:56 pm
The other factor in Rorsrach is that while we scorn him for bring a socio-path he is the one who figures out that thre is something deeper behind The Comedian's death.

You can attribute it to paranoia, and even point out that there was no "mask killer" per se but while everyone dismisses him Rorscarch is ultimately right.

What this does is lend credence to his behaviour, maybe Rorsharch has some insight into the world that we don't.

Some insight, yes, but mostly paranoia. Rorschach saw conspiracies everywhere, just like <i>The New Frontiersman</i>: Everything was a communist, plot of some sort. Remember, he also tried to tie Hollis Mason's death into his theory. He never could have suspected Ozymandias' plot because he simply wasn't capable of comprehending something that huge. He dealt in the obvious, the base human element: He saw heroes being killed and attacked, and assumed the motivation was to kill and attack heroes. Once he sank his teeth into the theory, he refused to let go.

And at the same time the glorified vigiliante of comics turns out to be an ugly little man with a mother fixation.


This is something creators should bear in mind when launching the latest "dark and gritty" anti-hero: Rorschach was not cool. He was not to be admired. He was dangerous, mentally unstable and half-blind to the world. He's one of the most compelling characters ever to grace a comic, but he wasn never intended to be admired or emulated.

Dylan McKay
Feb 23, 2005, 04:49 pm
Some insight, yes, but mostly paranoia. Rorschach saw conspiracies everywhere, just like <i>The New Frontiersman</i>: Everything was a communist, plot of some sort. Remember, he also tried to tie Hollis Mason's death into his theory. He never could have suspected Ozymandias' plot because he simply wasn't capable of comprehending something that huge. He dealt in the obvious, the base human element: He saw heroes being killed and attacked, and assumed the motivation was to kill and attack heroes. Once he sank his teeth into the theory, he refused to let go.


Which is why the Watchmen is as the #2 team is such an important detail. No single character could deal with the situation. No single world view or perspective could save the world. It is through those with fundamental differences finding their similarities and working together that the real possitive changes are made.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 23, 2005, 05:02 pm
Some insight, yes, but mostly paranoia. Rorschach saw conspiracies everywhere, just like <i>The New Frontiersman</i>: Everything was a communist, plot of some sort. Remember, he also tried to tie Hollis Mason's death into his theory. He never could have suspected Ozymandias' plot because he simply wasn't capable of comprehending something that huge. He dealt in the obvious, the base human element: He saw heroes being killed and attacked, and assumed the motivation was to kill and attack heroes. Once he sank his teeth into the theory, he refused to let go.



Not that I'm essentially disagreeing with you here but to elaborate. Veidt's plot is the "Grey" that Rorscharch cannot see though his black and white mask. As far as he is concerned he was right, someone was going after masks, the person who intended to kill the Comedian killed again. That he can only see the obvious, the base human elements is his insight. We get bogged down in the politics of Veidt's plan and his actions Rorscarch simply sees the obvious. Because we aren't rorscharch we can't dismiss his view, we can't assume any one position on the issue is "right" even if it is very easy to dismiss Rorscharch as paranoid.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 23, 2005, 08:02 pm
I don't think he was a "condemnation" of moral absolutism any more than Ozymandias is a glorification of "The Ends Justify the Means". Rorschach may have been a sociopath, but he was the only one who refused to allow a Utopia built on lies and the slaughter of millions of innocent people.

Watchmen was less a question of morals than it was of worldview: Rorschach was trying to save the world by beating up rapists and murderers; Ozymandias didn't think that accomplished anything more than beating up a bunch of rapists and murderers. I'm not sure you can say Rorschach was "wrong" without saying Ozymandias was right; I'm not entirely comfortable with either.

i don't see how saying one is wrong means the other is right. they're both insane. Moore doesn't seem to pass judgment on either one himself, letting their own characters, lives and actions speak for themselves. and chilling as it may be, if we merely look at it as cause and effect...Rorschach's way gets him imprisoned and killed because of his refusal to compromise while Ozymandias' way creates global peace and brotherhood. At the cost of the slaughter of innocents who were already killed, so what would have been served by Rorschach revealing it other than his singular and limited morality being justified? No, neither of them is right. No one is a "good guy" in this story. That's the point. Neither Rorschach's moral absolutism or Ozymandias' moral relativism is right. In a sense, just about the only philosophy that makes any sense in the damn story is Manhattan's moral detachment.

UltimateFan
Feb 26, 2005, 01:37 am
I had thought that Swamp Thing and a few others mentioned had already been on the list... maybe I'm wrong.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 26, 2005, 04:52 am
well, it's easy enough to go back and check...it's not like the columns are going anywhere. :)