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View Full Version : TOP 70 DC CHARACTERS, PART 4: #10-1


Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 28, 2005, 05:28 am
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/Top70DCCharacters.jpg" align=left border=0 alt="Top 70 DC Characters">Part 4: #10-1

Written By: Raul Grau, Alex Groff, Matt Lazorwitz, Jordan T. Maxwell, Dylan McKay
Comptroller: Jon Hancock
Editor:Jordan T. Maxwell

Characters are everything when it comes to story. Without characters you’re left with some nice scenery that would look good as a calendar in a toilet, but makes for a lousy comic. Characters within comics are a special breed. They earn such attention and admiration that many readers will follow a character rather than a writer or story. How many times was Dickens asked to introduce Oliver Twist in the Pickwick Papers? How many times did Shakespeare receive death threats for killing off Romeo and Juliet? Comic fans know what characters they like and so do staff members on comic websites.

If you're just joining the party, check out our earlier installments: Part 1 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32275), Part 2 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32350) and Part 3 (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32439).

But now, without any further interruption or delay, ComiX-Fan is proud to present...The Top 10 DC Characters of All Time!

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#10 Swamp Thing

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/10.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/10t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Swamp Thing"></a>First appearance: Swamp Thing #1
Created by: Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson
Reimagined in: Saga of the Swamp Thing #21
Reimagined by: Alan Moore

Swamp Thing was originally envisioned as a kind of Victorian horror character in House of Secrets #92, murdered scientist Alex Olsen turned into a speechless muck monster. But by the time he received his own series, the character had been brought into the modern day with an updated origin. Alex Olsen was gone, and in his place was Alec Holland, his wife Linda, and their bio-restorative formula, developed in the hope that it could promote plant growth and help feed the world. And as is often the case in comic books, such idealism cannot go unpunished. So the couple were killed and Alec returned as yet another muck monster on a quest to regain his lost humanity. Until Alan Moore entered the picture. Because as it turns out, the monster who arose from the swamp was never Alec Holland. It was the plant life of the swamp, accelerated by Holland’s formula, which then decomposed and fed off his remains, absorbing his intelligence. Suddenly there was no lost humanity to seek out. There was simply the humanity he had found in his strange birth. And even trippier, it turned out he was the latest in a long line of plant elementals (Alex Olsen had existed after all). A mysticism and philosophical aspect was added to the character that appealed to fans as the Swamp Thing went from battling private armies and mad scientists to traveling through Heaven and Hell, exploring different planes of existence and averting apocalypses. He developed a more romantic side as well, sharing one of the most beautiful and poetic love stories in comics with longtime friend Abigail Arcane. Swamp Thing had molted his B-movie origins in favor of a more cerebral and emotional character. His stories were less obvious superhero fare, and ranged from poetry and philosophy to horror and satire, setting the mood and attitude for what would eventually evolve into the Vertigo line of books.

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#9 Flash (Barry Allen)

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/9.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/9t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Flash (Barry Allen)"></a>First Appearance: Showcase #4
Created by: Robert Kanigher, Julius Schwartz, and Carmine Infantino

Though his codename was borrowed, Barry Allen raced as the Flash for thirty years, more than earning the title of Fastest Man Alive. He began, ironically enough, as a slowpoke, terminally late for every appointment, but a bolt of lightning changed all that. Inspired by the comic book hero of his youth, Barry became the Flash, able to race across water, pluck bullets from midair, and even vibrate through solid objects. He helped provide the foundations for the modern DC universe, as a founding member of the Justice League of America, and as mentor to Wally West, the first Kid Flash. Barry wed his sweetheart, Iris, but lost her through the machinations of Professor Zoom, the Reverse-Flash. On the eve of his second marriage, Barry accidentally crossed the heroic line, murdering Zoom and sullying his own reputation. After a painful trial, there was a momentary happy ending, with Barry and Iris reunited in the far future. Their peace was tragically short-lived, as Barry responded to one final Crisis, and ran his last race to save all creation. Barry was dead, but the Flash lived on, with Wally filling those scarlet boots... however, that passing of the torch is not nearly the full extent of the Barry Allen legacy. In 1956, superheroes were at their lowest point, and it was the debut of this new Flash that revitalized interest in costumed crimefighters. This Silver Age of comic fiction saw a new breed of hero, clothed more in speculative science than fantasy, and Barry was the vanguard of the movement. In his civilian identity, he was a forensic scientist (decades before any CSIs), and his speed had a chemical explanation. His foes shared his penchant for science, more often using mechanisms than magic, and Barry would defeat his Rogues Gallery with intelligence, rather than force. His death has become a cornerstone of DC history, a moment so iconic that no writer has yet dared to undo it, and he literally fathered the next generation, with genetic descendants who stretch on through the centuries, all propagating the Flash name. Currently, two such heroes continue to carry the lightning, his nephew Wally, the Flash of JLA fame, and his grandson Bart, Kid Flash of the Teen Titans. Any good deeds they have done, any worlds they have saved, can all be credited to Barry, the hero who started a dynasty.

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#8 Lex Luthor

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/8.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/8t.jpg" align=left alt="Lex Luthor" hspace="7"></a>First Appearance: Action Comics #23
Created by: Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
Re imagined in: Man of Steel #4
Re imagined by: John Byrne

Lex Luthor all the real villains our world knows, the corrupt politician, the crime boss, the greedy businessman, the amoral scientist etc... But that's exactly it, he's a real villain, not a one-dimensional cartoony villain like most comic book villains. He does want to improve society. Is it just so that he can secure a name for himself in history and to be loved by as many people as possible? Most likely. But there is honour and altruism under that manipulative exterior. Lex Luthor is too complex a man to ever truly know what motivates him. Lex Luthor is the embodiment of humanities greatest strengths; innovation, (He is the person most responsible for making Metropolis the city of tommorow.) motivation (He did grow up in Metropolis's worst neighbourhood and work his way up to President of the United States of America.) and intelligence. (He is often credited as being the world's smartest man, granted, he's often doing the creditting.) He is also the embodiement of humanities greatest flaws; pride, (He believes that he alone can increase humanity's self-reliance and eliminate the need for superheroes.) envy, (One of the main reasons Lex wages war on superheroes is that he cannot stomach the idea of anyone being able to do things he cannot.) gluttony, (Lex, and his allies [ally meaning anyone who submissively completes all tasks within the exact specifications asked.) lust, (Lex Luthor is often flanked with beautiful women, and rarely the same one twice.) anger, (I would say ask anyone's who's ever crossed Lex what his temper is like, but if they are still able to talk, I assure you they have nothing bad to say about him, well, unless you ask a superhero.) greed (Lex is one of, if not the richest man in the DCU, and he didn't get their by giving as much to charity as he could. Or by stay exactly legal...) and sloth. (While there is no doubt that Luthor is a highly motivated man who got where he was due to cunning and hard work, he often relies upon others to do his dirty work. Lex is a masterful user of people and often ensures that others fight his battles.)

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#7 Dream (Morpheus)
<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/7.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/7t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Dream"></a>First appearance: Sandman #1
Created by: Neil Gaiman and Sam Keith

Dream of the Endless is not some spandex clad superhero or cape wearing mystery man empowered by dreams. He is not the god or spirit of dreams. He is Dream, the embodiment of that fundamental aspect of existence. He is the monarch of sleeping minds, of imagination, of nightmares and stories. He is defined entirely by his role because as far as he’s concerned he IS his role, and nothing more. And, to put it lightly, he is not exactly a nice guy. A hero not in the sense of noble feats of derring-do, but more in the Shakespearean mold, tragic and flawed. The dour attitude and inability to change and adapt of Hamlet. The proud arrogance of Lear. The rash impulsiveness of Romeo. The pettiness and blind jealousy of Othello. And yet like those fallen figures, he is noble, wise, regal, passionate. Strange as it may sound, he is human…all too human. We meet Dream not at the beginning of his tale, but at the beginning of the end as he is captured and held captive by humans for decades. Upon his escape and the reclamation of his power and office, we begin to see Dream change as he is forced to face up to the sins of his past. All the scorned lovers, neglected children, abused mortals come back to haunt him, forcing him to set things right. His peer and rival Lucifer’s abandonment of Hell and the departure centuries before by his own brother Destruction make Dream face up to the idea that responsibility is not just to one’s duty or obligations, but also to one’s family and friends and most importantly to one’s own self. He must consider freedom and change. But for a creature older than gods and stars, change does not come easily and at the end of his introspective hero’s journey, for all his discovery and growth, he finds there is only so much he can change and yet so much more that he needs to. And so he lets go of his own life and existence to make way for a new Dream who can be all the things he cannot. Morpheus is a character straight out of epic poetry, great drama and classic literature given life on a comic book page…proving that this medium can support the weight of such a character just as easily as any other.

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#6 Wonder Woman

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/6.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/6t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Wonder Woman"></a>First appearance: All Star Comics #8
Created by: William Moulton Marston

Diana of Themyscira is a figure of great contradiction, a woman of both war and peace, of empowerment and exploitation, of mythology and psychology. Her origin could have been plucked right out of a Joseph Campbell book, her form molded from clay and given life and power by the gods, she faces trial by combat in disguise and wins weapons of divine enchantment and a calling to explore, to defend, to teach. But her creator was not a folklorist but a psychologist who believed that the male dominance of superheroes as found in characters like Superman and Batman was a grave disservice to impressionable juvenile minds. And so he crafted Wonder Woman to not only be a figure of myth and legend, but an embodiment of empowered feminism as well. But for all her empowerment, Marston used her as well to explore themes of human sexuality and dominance with her skimpy outfit and bondage themed weapon, the Lasso of Truth (it’s interesting to note that Marston, creator of this Lasso of Truth, is also the inventor of the polygraph machine…the lie detector). In those early days of comic books and the superhero, Wonder Woman filled a niche and stands to this day as one of the iconic trinity of DC heroes alongside two of the only other superheroes who’s popularity has lasted from their Golden Age origins to the modern day, Superman and Batman. Some muddying of her origin and character have held her back, along with the rather biased mindset of the male dominated comic book industry, but Wonder Woman also stands out as one of the first characters to cross over into the mainstream with her hit television show in the 70s. Whether a source of inspiration for girls or perspiration for boys, Wonder Woman has proven to be a hero for any age.

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#5 Death

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/5.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/5t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Death"></a>First Appearance: Sandman #8
Created by: Neil Gaiman and Mike Dringenberg

Death is the end of life, that mysterious transition from this world to the next, and the final page to every story. Death personified is the Grim Reaper, a scythe-wielding skeleton with a perpetual grin... at least, that is how he has been portrayed in countless movies, novels, and comic books, but what if he were a she? Neil Gaiman envisioned a Death who was a bit less scary, and a bit more perky. Like her younger brother Dream, Death is a member of the Endless, a family comprised by the personified aspects of existence, but, unlike Morpheus, she has a sense of humor about it. She is the Mary Poppins of the supernatural set, coming down from nowhere to reveal what is truly important about life, and doing it with a cute wink. Despite her kind nature, she still performs her existential duties, escorting souls from the earthly plane to their ultimate destination, with a gentle beating of her mighty wings. She is literally Death, but with none of the horror that we commonly ascribe to the moment, and that uniqueness has served her, and the industry, well. More than Wonder Woman or any superheroine, Death is responsible for bringing readers of the fairer sex into the comic fold, as every counterculture minded female has a copy of The High Cost of Living on her bookshelf, right next to Flowers in the Attic. Before the current Goth craze, there she was, with pale skin, black clothes, and representational ankh, inspiring those who would never dare to ordinarily touch a comic book with her very look. In our comic world, death is ever present, and the embodied Death is equally ubiquitous, appearing in every DC series from the Legion to Captain Atom, and even crossing the street to cameo at Marvel, witnessing major changes, which is all death really is. She is one of the oldest beings in the universe, destined to endure until the end of time, when it will be up to her to put up the chairs and turn off the lights. Until then, we can embrace Death... the character, if not the concept.

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#4 Joker

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/4.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/4t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Joker"></a>First Appearance: Batman #1
Created by: Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson

What makes a great villain? Is it the evil that he is supposed to epitomize, as with Darkseid; or is it the tragic nobility he represents, as with Magneto? Is a villain's greatness based on his innovation, the way he, like Braniac, constantly surprises us; or is it the determination and unstoppability of Sinestro that draws us in? Either way, Joker has been all of these things, and more. For someone who's only real superpower is a bizarre sense of humor and a bad make-up artist, he has been Batman's greatest bane since Bruce was handed his own title in 1940. Once a failed comedian, he took a job as the Red Hood to pay rent for himself and his pregnant wife-- only to fall into a vat of chemicals while trying to evade the Bat. Arising deformed and finding his wife dead-- by accident or design is still a question today-- the Joker was born. Insane, violent, ofttimes humorous and not without a touch of class, The Joker is the mirror image of Batman, and their fighting has always been the thrust, parry and riposte of fencing. (The Joker has in the past challenged Batman for not playing by the rules of the game, and his actions often imply an underlying logic, if not a sane purpose.) Despite the costs on both sides-- to civilians, mayors, henchmen and Boy Wonders-- Batman's unwillingness to kill, either a sign of weakness or nobility, seems to show that this parle will never come to an end. However, perhaps the finest feature of the Joker is the constant statement he makes on the nature of superheroes. From his loses as the Red Hood to his exectution on the electric chair; from his bloody attempts to make Batman understand him in A Killing Joke to the loss of his restored sanity in Going Sane, Joker's presence asks the question: how much are vigilantes to blame for the villains they face?

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#3 John Constantine

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/3.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/3t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="John Constantine"></a>First appearance: Saga of the Swamp Thing #37
Created by: Alan Moore, Rick Veitch and John Totleben

John Constantine is a bastard. Oh, sure, he’s saved the world plenty of times and taken on angels, demons and the Devil himself. But he’s also managed to get a number of people who cared for and trusted him maimed, killed or damned in the process. He is the embodiment of London (despite what Hollywood producers and Neo might lead you to believe), a strange and intoxicating mix of the arcane and the urban, of mysteries hidden in shadowy alleyways and secrets of dying religions and underground cults. He is the leather and discontentment of punk rock mangled in a head on collision with the trench coat cool and self loathing of noir. A silk cut cigarette and cocky Cheshire grin that slip out of the darkness with every secret you’ve ever wanted to know and he’ll tell you if it suits him to do so. More a trickster than a sorcerer, more a con man than a magician, Constantine is a righteous bastard from a long line of righteous bastards. He may have demon’s blood coursing through his veins, but it’s the piss and whisky of being a Constantine that makes him what he is. In a time when being an anti-hero in comics really just meant you were a kind of pissed off character who didn’t mind killing, along comes this Sting look alike with his trademark trench coat and cigarettes and the kind of hard boiled cockiness mixed with cynicism and self hatred that would make a Raymond Chandler novel read like Chicken Soup for the Soul. His dialogue was laced with an acid wit and his actions were dripping in moral ambiguity. Fans loved him and from making straight men out of the protagonists in Swamp Thing and Sandman to playing mentor like a grinning bastard Obi-Wan to Tim Hunter in Books of Magic to his own misanthropic misadventures in Hellblazer, the fledgling Vertigo line had him as a kind of standard bearer for the attitude of the imprint. He’s even managed a bit of crossover appeal to the mainstream…most recently in an Americanized and watered down Hollywood adaptation, but also more faithfully as the inspiration for the popular characters of Giles and Spike on Joss Whedon’s Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Still...he's really just a bastard.

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#2 Batman (Bruce Wayne)

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/2.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/2t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Batman"></a>First Appearance: Detective Comics #27
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane

“Ladies. Gentlemen. You have eaten well. You’ve eaten Gotham’s wealth. It’s spirit. Your feast is almost over. From this moment on - - None of you are safe.” These are the words spoken by Batman as he first confronts the mobsters and corrupt upper class of Gotham in Frank Miller’s legendary Batman: Year One, and to me they are the words that define Batman. He is the implacable foe of all corruption, of all those who would dare to harm the innocent. His origin is a part of the public consciousness. A young boy, who watched the greatest tragedy you could imagine, the murder of both his parents by a gunman. Training his body and mind to be the pinnacle of human achievement, he took the name of The Batman, and set about cleaning up Gotham City. Batman strikes a special chord with many readers, this writer well included within that number. We could never be Superman, we could never leap tall buildings in a single bound. But somehow, you could think you could be Batman. He’s just a guy, a guy with more brains and muscles than most, and with all those wonderful toys, but still just a guy. He is also deeply layered, and a study in conflicts. He wants to see crime eradicated, but his actions are often criminal. He can one moment be comforting a victim, and the next savagely beating their attackers. He has a hard time dealing with his own emotions, and with the people who truly care about him. He is an intensely human character. In the grand scheme of the DC Universe, though, he has a role of immense importance. In the holy trinity upon which the world stands, the trinity of truth, justice, and the American way, Superman is America embodied and Wonder Woman is the goddess of Truth. And that leaves Justice to Batman. He is the avatar of justice, the force that will not cease until all who have been wronged are given their due.

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#1 Superman

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/1t.jpg" align=left alt="Superman" hspace="7"></a>First appearance: Action Comics #1
Created by: Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster

His name is known around the world. His powers can be recited by young schoolchildren and aged scholars. His origin and history are ingrained in the consciousness of our pop culture. He is the first, the truest, the greatest…Superman. Sent to Earth from a dying planet, the sacrifice made for Kal-El of Krypton by his parents would be passed on to him in the form of great powers beyond those of mortal men. The legacy and lessons learned from the adoptive parents of Clark Kent would direct those powers toward the good of all mankind. Superman is more than a hero. He is a symbol of hope, of justice, of the belief that one man can make a difference. He is the ideal. Strong, fast, invulnerable. He can fly, see through walls or across miles, hear any sound, create heat with his eyes or intense cold with his breath. And yet his greatest power comes not from being ideal, but from being an idealist. Superman has an incredible sense of morality that guides him and drives him to do good when it would be just as easy to use his abilities for selfish personal gain. He is not only a hero, but an inspiration for generations of heroes…both fictional and in real life. And like all great symbols, he is all things to all people. He has been called everything from a boy scout to a messiah. A parable of immigration. A power fantasy for the meek and mild. A fulfillment of untapped potential and imagination. Without Superman, the DC universe and our own world would be a drastically different place. Like all great heroes and myths, he amazes and entertains with tales of his incredible adventures. But more importantly, he teaches and guides us. To make the world a better place. To fight for what we believe in. To realize that what is alien and different to us may best embody our hopes and dreams…and that the battle for truth and justice is never ending.

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And that's a wrap, folks! Hope you've enjoyed this look at the richness and diversity of DC's stable of characters, and if you'd like to check out more 70th anniversary fun, head on over here! (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=32203)

#10, 7, 6, 3, 1: Jordan T. Maxwell
#9, 5: Raul Grau
#4: Alex Groff
#2: Matt Lazorwitz
#8: Dylan McKay
Comptroller: Jon Hancock
Editor: Jordan T. Maxwell
Columns Editor: Joel Phillips
Editor in Chief: Al Harahap
Co-Publisher: Brian Wilkinson
Publisher: Eric J. Moreels


<center>All characters, titles, and likenesses thereof ™ © DC Comics (http://www.dccomics.com) or its licensors,
and are used without permission, not for profit. All other content © original author and ComiX-Fan (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan).</center>

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 28, 2005, 06:45 am
well let me start by saying this was a fun list and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

Then let me close by bitterly ranting that Morpheus wuz robbed.

Morhpeus was robbed, robbed I say, rob-bed.!!!!

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 28, 2005, 06:56 am
hey, being outdone by the holy trinity of superheroes, one of the most iconic villains of all time and a trickster who probably conned his way to such a high rank anyway is no dishonor...

...it's being beaten by your big sister that's really gotta sting. :P

Robb Welch
Feb 28, 2005, 07:22 am
As much as I know everyone loves swamp thing....
number ten? and morpheus and death so close together?
more importantly...
and how the hell is barry allen a better character than wally west??

bugalugs1
Feb 28, 2005, 07:49 am
A good list!
Not suprised by the top two, but some of the other 8 were not what I was expecting..
No Green Lanterns i the top 10 and 2 bad-guys.
Nice to be surprised

§tormy
Feb 28, 2005, 07:53 am
Well now, this certainly was a fun list, but I can't say I'm suprised by the top two.

Ruudben
Feb 28, 2005, 09:12 am
I realise that not every character could make it onto the list, but I'm surprised that Hitman didn't show up somewhere. Absolutely brilliant book and the characters were everything.

aswang
Feb 28, 2005, 09:35 am
i loved you rlist. well, most of it. i am not surprised by numbers one and two. and diana, of course. but john constantine? i know he had a movie out a few weeks ago. but... i just don't know. anyway, top somethings are always governed by subjective choices. great work!

btw. much as i love death, i disagree her topping her younger brother. well, that's just me.

UMichWolverine
Feb 28, 2005, 10:39 am
I was suprised by the top 2 if only for their order. I thought that the writers would take the less conventional route and pick Batman as the most interesting character from DC.

Obviously Superman is the backbone of the DC universe, but I would contend that Batman is the DC heroe's conscience. Superman represents the ideals, but Batman is the one who keeps everyone grounded in reality.

Just my 2 cents.

Seth Kim
Feb 28, 2005, 10:49 am
You guys got it totally right. Bravo.

evilomar
Feb 28, 2005, 11:08 am
I enjoyed this list a whole bunch, but I was surprised not to see Wonder Woman in the top three, other then that it was a great list.

netenyahoo
Feb 28, 2005, 11:12 am
Did I miss Firestorm somewhere in the top 70? I feel he deserved to be in the top 70 somewhere. I was holding out until the last list came out to say anything.

raul grau
Feb 28, 2005, 12:10 pm
how the hell is barry allen a better character than wally west??
Well, Barry launched the Silver Age, helped found the Justice League, and died one of the most iconic and permanent deaths of any comic book character ever. Wally has done a lot for himself, certainly, but I do not recall him ever inspiring a whole new era of comic book interest... plus, his deaths tend not to stick. ;)

Did I miss Firestorm somewhere in the top 70? I feel he deserved to be in the top 70 somewhere. I was holding out until the last list came out to say anything.
Sorry, netenyahoo. I would have loved to see Ronnie make the list as well, but he just came up short in the votes. Perhaps for the 75th anniversary, he'll be able to squeak in. :)

- Raul

mr. 983
Feb 28, 2005, 12:29 pm
I was suprised by the top 2 if only for their order. I thought that the writers would take the less conventional route and pick Batman as the most interesting character from DC.

Obviously Superman is the backbone of the DC universe, but I would contend that Batman is the DC heroe's conscience. Superman represents the ideals, but Batman is the one who keeps everyone grounded in reality.

Just my 2 cents.

I wasn't as much surprised as disappointed. I was expecting the number one choice to be made out of the character himself (or herself), like when this site did the top 40 X-men characters. The didn't choose the most popular (Wolverine) or the one who started it all and basically is the backbone of the whole deal (Xavier). They chose the most complex, and a villian nonetheless. They chose Magneto.

I don't know. Superman just falls flat to me. While i won't deny his relevance as an icon, that's all he is. There's no where for him to grow anymore. Hell, the most popular version of him running around now in mainstream pop culture is in Smallville, and they had to reimagine him to make him in any way relevant to today's society.

Overall, tho, i have to say the list is a pretty darn good one.

Jazzy_P
Feb 28, 2005, 02:11 pm
I liked the list..it was fun and informative,
I just would ask why superman is number 1? Like many i think batman should be number 1. Not only is superman in my opinion a boring character (he cant be killed etc) he's baiscally a god. Batman is only human (and believe me i have a problem with saying batman is only human) but can easily stand up to superman. Superman is everything that people want to be and Batman is everything that People have the capacity to be. In that way i really do believe that Bruce should be higher.
And why on earth isnt Hal Jordan in the top 10?

troy2g1
Feb 28, 2005, 02:25 pm
Odd that Wonder Woman isnt in the final three.

If this is a list of DCs TOP Characters of ALL Time that theres no way on Earth Death and Constantine should be above Wonder Woman.

DC makes booku dollars off her from merchandising (if not from her own book).

Plus, as was stated in the article, she had her TV show and they are in talks for her movie.

More people know who Wonder Woman is than who Constantine, Death or quite possibly even the Joker.

She is an Icon unlike Joker, Constatine and Death.

KenB3
Feb 28, 2005, 03:41 pm
I disagree about Wonder Woman deserving a spot in the top three, I think even her spot in the top ten is questionable. Her creator, William Marsden, was obviously into some kinky stuff and the Golden Age stories reflect that, where she's tying someone up or getting tied up every few pages. The idea of coming from this island where there are only women raises a lot of questions that they've never really answered. And why does she go from that Greek-like island to wear red white and blue? Her original secret identity was basically a Superman knock off, where she wore glasses and had a love interest who was more interested in Wonder Woman than Diana, and then that story was scrapped post-Crisis, but nothing replaced it.

More importantly though, what is her personality supposed to be like? What's her motivation? In a story where Batman and Superman are both sent into their ideal lives, everyone knew what they would be because the characters are that strong. We didn't see Diana's, nor do we really have an idea. The image they want for her is the "ideal woman," so much that it's limiting, but they don't have a clear idea of what the ideal woman is. People complain that Superman is so much an icon they can't develop his character, but at least there's a clear character to begin with. With his Kansas upbringing, job, and wife, you can relate to Superman far better than Wonder Woman, and he's not that easy to relate to in the first place.

Where's Wonder Woman's supporting cast? Who's her Lois Lane, her Aunt May, her Foggy Nelson? Has there been any consistent character in that sense for her over the years, Post-Crisis?

And where are the great Wonder Woman stories? You can name great Batman stories, great Superman stories, but where are all the "must-read" Wonder Woman graphic novels. Lots of DC heroes not in the "big three" have stories I always hear that I have to read and they usually live up to that. I bet Green Arrow has more great trades than Diana, and he hasn't had his own book nearly as long. On the list of great superhero moments, where were Diana's? I don't mean that she's there in Crisis of Kingdom Come, I mean where are the ones specific to her?

I know that she's an icon, a household name, all that crap, but she's not that good a character. I mean, I think right now Greg Rucka's doing more to develop her than sixty years worth of her comics did.

bravelybravesirrobin
Feb 28, 2005, 03:41 pm
I've gotta say death is as much an icon as Wonder Woman is. I've seen loads of teenage girls sporting ankhs and eye of horus swirls but very very few in a spangly leaotard. Death inspired a whole generation of goth culture and her visage is nearly omni-present in goth clubs and stores. She's one of the few characters that draw female readers into comics one of the few licensing figures they can sell to people who aren't kids or fanboys (not that being a fanboy is a bad thing but only a very certain kind of person would wear a bright red shirt with a lightning bolt on it and the death fans probably out number them).

Wonder Woman should be applauded for being an ACTUAL female super hero (super powered women prior to her always seemed to be damsels in distress) and a feminist icon but she has rarely sold comics and hasn't been popular in the mainstream since her show ended.

I'm also a Bats is ore interesting than Supes guy. Superman for all that he started everything is always at his msot interesting when you change him, when you take the iconic elements and invert them, subject them to scrutiny, reflect upon what they mean etc, etc. The most interesting superman stories are in Superman Red Son, or Kingdom Come, or even Supreme, The Sentry or Majestic. Hell he's mroe interesting in Kill Bill (for all that Tarantino is jsut completely backwards in that speech) or in "Philosophy of Super Heroes" than he is in his monthly title. The iconic elements, the pwoers, the views, the comic conventions he creates are all interesting to examine or play with but simply presented to you in a normal story they tend to fall flat. This has been the case as early as the 60's where Mort Weisenger sold millions of superman turning old, into an ant monster, a bizzaro, a fishman etc, etc. There are some great "straight" superman stories but they're not playing to the character's strength.

batman on the other hand doesn't need to be subverted to be interesting. He's interesting on his own in his own book and his own stories because fundamentally he's a more interesting characters. Superman is the perfect hero (yes, not always and he tends to be a lot more fun when he isn't) but batman is flawed. Is he crazy? a faschist? is he a tragic hero a detective or a psyopath? A protector or an oppressor? + he represents a kind of human longing for greatness. Batman represents a pinnacle but an achievable one (most of the time) pt your mind to it and you can change the world and you don't need to be a special person to do it, any idiot with a bat suit can make a difference.


Although Morpheus is still one of the most complex and intriguing chaarcters of all time and wuz robbed, robbed I tells ya.

Phoenix_Force
Feb 28, 2005, 03:49 pm
She is an Icon unlike Joker, Constatine and Death.

To say that Death is not an icon is to not understand what Gaiman has written; she is not a character, she is the embodiment of a concept. That's why it was stated that she has appeared in every major DC book. Death is what it is.

I for one was happy with this list. Everyone in the Top 10 deserved to be there, though I must say that I would have placed Green Lantern over John Constantine . . .

It's too bad that there was not some more Wildstorm lovin'. I wish Zealot or the Gen13 crew would have made the cut; at least Caitlin Fairchild in the 40-30s section . . .

NMBradbury
Feb 28, 2005, 03:53 pm
Constantine at number 3. It's more than I could have hoped for.

And, because this is the first time in the whole of Comix-Fan's history that I've got something right, I'd like to crow that I got No. 1. right! Yes, it was really obvious, but still....

Nothing at all wrong with this top 10. Maybe I'd swap Death and Dream around, ditto Luthor and Joker, but I can't complain. Constantine at number 3! Woot!

Dylan McKay
Feb 28, 2005, 04:20 pm
Superman is, simply put, not just the top character in comics, but probably the greatest pop culture icon of the 20th century. There is no way he isn't the greatest character of all time.

That said, I also hate Batman and think he is a horribly boring character propped up by the most killer supporting cast in comics.

Ken Boehm
Feb 28, 2005, 04:26 pm
You kinda salvaged this list by having Barry and Supes in the top 10. Although Luthor should have been above the Joker just in the sense Luthor brings more to the villain table. Joker has always just been nuts. Luthor is the guy you secretly root for because he's right in a way (why should humanity have to have superheroes save them when man can do it themselves?), and killed a lot more people than the Joker has, hands down. Plus Luthor never had that crappy mini series Joker: The Last Laugh. That's an automatic 50 point deduction right there ;).

Smartypants101
Feb 28, 2005, 06:44 pm
I disagree about Wonder Woman deserving a spot in the top three, I think even her spot in the top ten is questionable. Her creator, William Marsden, was obviously into some kinky stuff and the Golden Age stories reflect that, where she's tying someone up or getting tied up every few pages. The idea of coming from this island where there are only women raises a lot of questions that they've never really answered. And why does she go from that Greek-like island to wear red white and blue? Her original secret identity was basically a Superman knock off, where she wore glasses and had a love interest who was more interested in Wonder Woman than Diana, and then that story was scrapped post-Crisis, but nothing replaced it.

More importantly though, what is her personality supposed to be like? What's her motivation? In a story where Batman and Superman are both sent into their ideal lives, everyone knew what they would be because the characters are that strong. We didn't see Diana's, nor do we really have an idea. The image they want for her is the "ideal woman," so much that it's limiting, but they don't have a clear idea of what the ideal woman is. People complain that Superman is so much an icon they can't develop his character, but at least there's a clear character to begin with. With his Kansas upbringing, job, and wife, you can relate to Superman far better than Wonder Woman, and he's not that easy to relate to in the first place.

Where's Wonder Woman's supporting cast? Who's her Lois Lane, her Aunt May, her Foggy Nelson? Has there been any consistent character in that sense for her over the years, Post-Crisis?

And where are the great Wonder Woman stories? You can name great Batman stories, great Superman stories, but where are all the "must-read" Wonder Woman graphic novels. Lots of DC heroes not in the "big three" have stories I always hear that I have to read and they usually live up to that. I bet Green Arrow has more great trades than Diana, and he hasn't had his own book nearly as long. On the list of great superhero moments, where were Diana's? I don't mean that she's there in Crisis of Kingdom Come, I mean where are the ones specific to her?

I know that she's an icon, a household name, all that crap, but she's not that good a character. I mean, I think right now Greg Rucka's doing more to develop her than sixty years worth of her comics did.

I disagree that Wonder Woman shouldn't be in the top 10 and I'm shocked that she's not at least Top 5. It's true that her original creator Marston was interested in the concepts of bondage and submission but he was also interested in truth, as well as the fact that any woman could be a Wonder Woman.

That's why many of her Golden Age female foes were reformed. They were shown that they could change their ways and be just as strong and capable as any man if they followed the ways of Diana and the Amazons, which was extremely revolutionary for the time. We're talking pre-women's rights movement. For that reason alone, her status as one of DC's Top characters should be cemented. In fact, I would argue that she's a much more revolutionary character than the other two members of DC's "big three".

Today, I will agree that it's sometimes difficult to get a handle on Wonder Woman but the character's mission hasn't changed. Her goal was to come to Man's World and bring peace by fighting against evil. True, her personality has changed from writer to writer but I think that's more the fact that many writers come into her series and immediately want to change everything that came before. Perez characterized her as a wide-eyed naive, young innocent, while Jiminez showed some of the sides of Diana that she probably wouldn't want many to see, including her jealousy and insecurities. Through it all, she has consistently been shown as brave, loyal, and strong.

Her supporting cast has undergone a number of changes too but there are actual stalwarts, including Steve Trevor, Etta Candy, Vanessa and Julia Kapatelis. Also, I'd add Cassie (Wonder Girl) and her mother, Helena. Not to mention Amazons such as Phillipus and Artemis.

As far as "Must Read" Wonder Woman issues, I would suggest any of the recent Perez reprints, as well as the Loebs run that introduced Artemis. I know that it screwed up continuity but he wrote a great Diana. Also, Pre-Crisis, I would point out any of the Diana Prince issues, when Diana was powerless. That run was probably closest to what Marston envisioned.

GambitXtreme
Feb 28, 2005, 06:51 pm
I think the top three should be:

1) Batman
2) Superman
3) Wonder Woman

Ovid
Feb 28, 2005, 06:57 pm
That said, I also hate Batman and think he is a horribly boring character propped up by the most killer supporting cast in comics.

Hear! Hear! The Bat has no clothes! So his parents were killed donkeys' years ago and he still hasn't got over it. Diddums. :baby: So go see a therapist, already!

Batman is only negative. He just beats up criminals and mopes around. What a drama queen! (Can someone put together a 'drama queen' smilie? That would be awesome!) The positive is represented entirely by Gordon, Robin, Oracle et al.

Superman stands for the best of what humanity can be - the irony being, as his entry pointed out, that humanity would have to be alien to match him. Yes, kindness, tolerance, compassion are v. tough to write in an interesting way, but that shouldn't detract from the power of the ideal or from its superiority over cynicism dressed up in pseudo-cool angst.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 28, 2005, 07:01 pm
i agree on the lack of Wildstorm love...i'd have loved to have seen Elijah Snow make the list, personally (not in the top ten, but still). and no Invisibles love either. ah well, they made the teams list, so i'm satisfied. :D

As much as I know everyone loves swamp thing....
number ten?

yep. thanks for paying attention. :D


and morpheus and death so close together?

you'd prefer them farther apart? :?


more importantly...
and how the hell is barry allen a better character than wally west??

read Raul's entry...but i think helping to kick start the Silver Age and dying one of the most iconic deaths to save the universe, amongst other things, might have SOMETHING to do with it.

i loved you rlist. well, most of it. i am not surprised by numbers one and two. and diana, of course. but john constantine? i know he had a movie out a few weeks ago. but... i just don't know. anyway, top somethings are always governed by subjective choices. great work!


as i try to point out in my post, Constantine's popularity and greatness of a character have pretty much NOTHING to do with that horrid travesty of a film they put out. it has everything to do with John himself. and hell, the guy's one of my favorite characters ever and i was shocked that he managed to secure himself a spot in the top ten, let alone top three. shocked...but not overly surprised. he really is just that cool. ;)

troy2g1
Feb 28, 2005, 08:10 pm
To say that Death is not an icon is to not understand what Gaiman has written; she is not a character, she is the embodiment of a concept. That's why it was stated that she has appeared in every major DC book. Death is what it is.

She's not an icon. Icon is RECOGNIZABILITY.

So because Gaimen wrote her, that makes her an Icon?

Marvels Death predates Gaimens version - and she has been around since the 70s.

Wonder Woman is one of only THREE characters who has had a book published continously since the 40s.

She is also the only female comic character to ever appear on the cover of a publication (Ms.).

Alex Guillen
Feb 28, 2005, 08:49 pm
I liked that Superman is #1. He's just what a superhero should be, even with all his powers he's still an alien raised as a normal man and shown throuhg a loving family that crime doesn't pay and that abilities come with responsabilities. (most of the same as spiderman)
Morpheous and death? 2 of the most complex characters in the DC stable are great choices. Constantine also is a percfect choice since DC is much more than superheroes in tights, you also have to show the supernatural, urban underground of the world.

Jazzy_P
Feb 28, 2005, 08:58 pm
Superman stands for the best of what humanity can be - the irony being, as his entry pointed out, that humanity would have to be alien to match him. Yes, kindness, tolerance, compassion are v. tough to write in an interesting way, but that shouldn't detract from the power of the ideal or from its superiority over cynicism dressed up in pseudo-cool angst.

What is Superman without his powers? A mild mannered repoter. What is Batman without his powers? He has none to begin with...he doesnt need to be an alien with powers to do his job...just a lot of money. Clark was born with his powers. Bruce worked for his. Which is more impressive?
Yes, kindness, tolerance, compassion are v. tough to write in an interesting way, but that shouldn't detract from the power of the ideal or from its superiority over cynicism dressed up in pseudo-cool angst.Some may even go as far as to say that Clark is naive to an extreme degree. I suppose it has more to do with who you identify with. I could never really identify with an Alien God compared to a man who lost his parents and is wracked by guilt that he didnt save them. In the end its really a question of darkness vs light, and well im rather photosensative.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Feb 28, 2005, 11:46 pm
She's not an icon. Icon is RECOGNIZABILITY.

So because Gaimen wrote her, that makes her an Icon?

no, because many people who don't read comics regularly recognize her..THAT makes her an icon. i really don't think you understand the popularity of the Sandman series, and the character of Death in particular, outside of the small niche of comic book readers.


Marvels Death predates Gaimens version - and she has been around since the 70s.

yeah. Skull chick in a purple robe. really great character there. very recognizeable. and unique, because a skeleton in a robe in no way resembles the traditional view of death...a skeleton in a robe. :rolleyes:

as for the argument of Superman and Batman...i think they're equally as great because of the two poles that they represent. but without Superman, there would probably be no Batman. and i'm inclined to believe that idealism has an edge over superstition and fear. So Superman edges out the Bat, no question in my mind.

UMichWolverine
Feb 28, 2005, 11:48 pm
Dylan, you are 100% right, Superman is perhaps the greatest pop culture icon in the world. That does not make him a great "character" in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, Supes is definitely up there. I just happen to be a Batman guy. (You ever notice you can't ever be both, you must always be on the side of one or the other)

I have been pondering this all day since I first read the list and I have a suggested top 2 that truly encapsulate the DC universe.

1a) Batman & Joker
1b) Superman & Lex Luthor

There is a reason all 4 of these people are on the list. You can't have one with out the other. Batman and Superman serve as the yin to Joker and Lex's yang.

Batman is the most cold & calculating sane mind in DC lore. Joker is his utterly insane antithesis. In an episode of the Batman Animated Series, Joker described them as being like the masks of theatre, tragedy and comedy.

Superman is every ideal good people hold dear. Lex, as was so cleverly put by the writer of his description, captures each one of the seven deadly sins.

I would contend, that if it were not for Joker and Lex Luthor, Batman and Superman would not be half the icons they are today.

These two diametrically opposed pairs are destined to last throughout time, because variations on them existed before comics. They are classic archetypes that are always represented in every culture. What makes these two pairs so great is that most everyone in the world has heard of them.

OK, enough with the academic rambling. These are just my latest thoughts on the matter.

Dino Pollard
Feb 28, 2005, 11:56 pm
Odd that Wonder Woman isnt in the final three.

If this is a list of DCs TOP Characters of ALL Time that theres no way on Earth Death and Constantine should be above Wonder Woman.

DC makes booku dollars off her from merchandising (if not from her own book).

Plus, as was stated in the article, she had her TV show and they are in talks for her movie.

More people know who Wonder Woman is than who Constantine, Death or quite possibly even the Joker.

She is an Icon unlike Joker, Constatine and Death.The list is the Top 70 DC Characters, not the Top 70 DC Icons. There is a very distinct difference.

Great work, guys. I'm glad to see John Constantine getting the respect his character so richly deserves.

troy2g1
Mar 1, 2005, 12:18 am
no, because many people who don't read comics regularly recognize her..THAT makes her an icon. i really don't think you understand the popularity of the Sandman series, and the character of Death in particular, outside of the small niche of comic book readers.

Uhm. Jordan, are u trying to tell me that Death is more popular than Wonder Woman?

That a character created in the 90s is more popular than a character who was created in the 40s, is one of only 3 characters to have a continous comic run (since he 40s!), had a hit tv show, has been in cartoons, and was a symbol of the feminist movement? The ONLY female comic character to ever be on the cover of a magazine.

No offense, but thats delusional. Wonder Woman is a widely recognized symbol and is one of DCs cash cows. She brings in CRAZY money in merchandising... unlike Death.

I never said the chararcter wasnt great. I didnt say she was wack. I simply said theres no way that she is more popular than WW.

And shes DEFINATLY not more original as WW was created BEFORE the feminist movement (yea, she was ahead of her time).

yeah. Skull chick in a purple robe. really great character there. very recognizeable. and unique, because a skeleton in a robe in no way resembles the traditional view of death...a skeleton in a robe. :rolleyes:.

Someone commented that what Gaimed did with Death was create somthing original (in that she was a concept and not a living/breathing character). Thats wrong as Death predates her by 20 years and is just that.

So dressing up a character in Goth attire (which again, predates the character by more than a decade) makes her original? Not to take away from Gaimens writing, but please, thats crazy.

Death (Marvel) was never evil. And yea, she dressed like the Crypt Keeper, which no, isnt original. But to say that Gaimen did something original by making a characer a concept is a lie.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 1, 2005, 01:10 am
Uhm. Jordan, are u trying to tell me that Death is more popular than Wonder Woman?

with certain groups of people, very much so...either way, this isn't a popularity contest. you said Death was not a recognizeable or iconic character. i dispute that as she's widely known and recognized in certain sections of the population.


That a character created in the 90s is more popular than a character who was created in the 40s, is one of only 3 characters to have a continous comic run (since he 40s!), had a hit tv show, has been in cartoons, and was a symbol of the feminist movement? The ONLY female comic character to ever be on the cover of a magazine.

that a character in the 80s (let's make sure we have our facts straight) is more popular and relevant with people who aren't interested in superheroes and find the concept of Wonder Woman at best laughable...with young females who find Wonder Woman's exploitative costume and past history of being oftentimes dominated and overpowered by men to contradict her message of feminist empowerment...with people who are more inclined to pick up a graphic novel in a book store than ever step foot into a comic shop...yes, she's more popular with them. but, again, this isn't a popularity contest.


No offense, but thats delusional. Wonder Woman is a widely recognized symbol and is one of DCs cash cows. She brings in CRAZY money in merchandising... unlike Death.

and of course the number one criterion we considered when voting was how much money the characters make...because that's what's REALLY important when it comes to a character.


I never said the chararcter wasnt great. I didnt say she was wack. I simply said theres no way that she is more popular than WW.

and i say again, she is more popular with certain groups, she's more recognized than you're giving her credit for...and regardless, this is STILL not a popularity contest. Yes, popularity plays a part but so do many other things...like consistency. Death has been portrayed with consistent quality throughout her existence as a character. Wonder Woman, not so much.

also, i'm glad you didn't say she was "wack," because then we'd all have to laugh at you for using the word "wack." :P


Someone commented that what Gaimed did with Death was create somthing original (in that she was a concept and not a living/breathing character). Thats wrong as Death predates her by 20 years and is just that.

So dressing up a character in Goth attire (which again, predates the character by more than a decade) makes her original? Not to take away from Gaimens writing, but please, thats crazy.

Death (Marvel) was never evil. And yea, she dressed like the Crypt Keeper, which no, isnt original. But to say that Gaimen did something original by making a characer a concept is a lie.

every other depiction of Death up until Gaiman was dour and stoic, or cryptic or just downright evil. The Grim Reaper, the skull face and scythe...it's what people think of when they think of death. What Gaiman did was create an embodiment of Death who was cool, fun, happy with a great outlook on life and philosophy. no, there's nothing explicitly original about having a character who is also a concept. Mythology has been doing it for years. it's the approach Gaiman took to her character which was contrary to any other depiction of Death that made her stand out at first and appealed to so many people.

troy2g1
Mar 1, 2005, 02:49 am
with certain groups of people, very much so...either way, this isn't a popularity contest. you said Death was not a recognizeable or iconic character. i dispute that as she's widely known and recognized in certain sections of the population.

Then what rules did you use to make these decisions?

If popularity wasnt one of the criteria, then what determines a characters "greatness?"

that a character in the 80s (let's make sure we have our facts straight) is more popular and relevant with people who aren't interested in superheroes and find the concept of Wonder Woman at best laughable...with young females who find Wonder Woman's exploitative costume and past history of being oftentimes dominated and overpowered by men to contradict her message of feminist empowerment...with people who are more inclined to pick up a graphic novel in a book store than ever step foot into a comic shop...yes, she's more popular with them. but, again, this isn't a popularity contest.

And there are those who feel the opposite.

However, the IMPACT that Wonder Woman has had on society, when you like her or not, cannot be questions.

You might not like the character or even not fully understand the reason for her "being tied up" but it was all part of a bigger picture. She was created at a time when woman were only damsels in distress... there was nothing else like her. She is unique and original and she was a precursor to the feminist movement.

She has over 60 years of heritage. She has always been published. And while her character has changed over time, her message hasnt. And that message is what makes her unique. More unique than Batman or Superman. More unique than almost ANY other comic book character.

She isnt a "hero." Her message inevitably turns her into one... but thats not her point, its not why she is here.

To be honest, I find her character (and reason for creation) very inspiring considering almost everything is a rip off of another idea.

and of course the number one criterion we considered when voting was how much money the characters make...because that's what's REALLY important when it comes to a character.

You fail to understand my reasons for bringing up her popularity and how important she is to the company.

These things show the impact she has had on society. The money she brings in to the company shows that after 60-plus years a female character who inspires equality and peace is as relevant today as she was yesterday.

If that isnt the sign of a great character (literary creation), what is?

and i say again, she is more popular with certain groups, she's more recognized than you're giving her credit for...and regardless, this is STILL not a popularity contest. Yes, popularity plays a part but so do many other things...like consistency. Death has been portrayed with consistent quality throughout her existence as a character. Wonder Woman, not so much.

So Deaths 15 years of consistency is greater than Wonder Womans 60-plus years? By what do you draw this conclusion? How many appearances has this character ACTUALY had compared to WW?

I never said Death wasnt popular, I said it was laughable that you could actualy compare her to Wonder Woman.

Im 25 years old. Ive been reading comics since I was around 8. I collect damn near anything Marvel & DC put out (at least giving them a try). Ive realy only read a handful of Death appearances (and those were ONLY bc I needed to do research on the character for debate threads!).

I think I have a pretty extensive understanding of the DC and Marvel U and I still cant fully comprehend how Death is at all comparable to Wonder Woman.

Bc 'goth' crowds favor her to WW? Well, damn, I didnt realize that crowd (or those groups of people) made up the majority here. Especialy considering Death doesnt bring in 1/16 of the money WW does (profit=popularity=society impact=majority).

also, i'm glad you didn't say she was "wack," because then we'd all have to laugh at you for using the word "wack." :P

Oh, you didnt know? We're going retro! Dang is even back. Who woulda thought?

every other depiction of Death up until Gaiman was dour and stoic, or cryptic or just downright evil. The Grim Reaper, the skull face and scythe...it's what people think of when they think of death. What Gaiman did was create an embodiment of Death who was cool, fun, happy with a great outlook on life and philosophy. no, there's nothing explicitly original about having a character who is also a concept. Mythology has been doing it for years. it's the approach Gaiman took to her character which was contrary to any other depiction of Death that made her stand out at first and appealed to so many people.

Not true.

While the characters visage was very in line with what one would think of when you hear Death (like the Grim Reaper, etc) her reason for being was not evil. Wanting someone dead might be percieved as evil, but she was created and shown to hold a balance. Marvel used her character (and Galactus) to explain that the Universe (at least this fictitious Universe) needed a balance. She wasnt going out murdering or scaring people, she was simply doing her job, what she was in existance to do.

In now way is this a slam to Gaimen. Hes INCREDIBLY talented and I look forward to reading more of his upcoming writing (and Im REALY curious what hes doing for Marvel... Sentry maybe?)... I just honestly cant grasp how Death can be considered a greater character... given that there is nothing nearly as unique or original about her as there is WW. And as I said throughout this whole post, the impact she has had on society, the importance of her character, FAR outways that of Death...

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 1, 2005, 03:13 am
Then what rules did you use to make these decisions?

If popularity wasnt one of the criteria, then what determines a characters "greatness?"

popularity was one of the criteria, but it wasn't the only one. that was my point. personally, it's difficult for me to argue this because i love both characters. different people on staff voted based on different things, but we tried to take all factors into consideration. and Death came out slightly ahead of Wonder Woman. if you genuinely want to know why we voted that way, you'll have to ask everyone who voted.


And there are those who feel the opposite.

However, the IMPACT that Wonder Woman has had on society, when you like her or not, cannot be questions.

You might not like the character or even not fully understand the reason for her "being tied up" but it was all part of a bigger picture. She was created at a time when woman were only damsels in distress... there was nothing else like her. She is unique and original and she was a precursor to the feminist movement.

She has over 60 years of heritage. She has always been published. And while her character has changed over time, her message hasnt. And that message is what makes her unique. More unique than Batman or Superman. More unique than almost ANY other comic book character.

She isnt a "hero." Her message inevitably turns her into one... but thats not her point, its not why she is here.

To be honest, I find her character (and reason for creation) very inspiring considering almost everything is a rip off of another idea.

Wonder Woman is not a wholly original idea, though. as i pointed out, her story, origin and history are very closely tied and mirror Greek mythology. the hero's journey...hell, her origin is like a superhero retelling of Pygmalion. you like her. we get it. i do too. just not as much as Death.


You fail to understand my reasons for bringing up her popularity and how important she is to the company.

These things show the impact she has had on society. The money she brings in to the company shows that after 60-plus years a female character who inspires equality and peace is as relevant today as she was yesterday.

If that isnt the sign of a great character (literary creation), what is?

um...consistent quality characterization, for one thing.


So Deaths 15 years of consistency is greater than Wonder Womans 60-plus years? By what do you draw this conclusion? How many appearances has this character ACTUALY had compared to WW?

I never said Death wasnt popular, I said it was laughable that you could actualy compare her to Wonder Woman.

Im 25 years old. Ive been reading comics since I was around 8. I collect damn near anything Marvel & DC put out (at least giving them a try). Ive realy only read a handful of Death appearances (and those were ONLY bc I needed to do research on the character for debate threads!).

I think I have a pretty extensive understanding of the DC and Marvel U and I still cant fully comprehend how Death is at all comparable to Wonder Woman.

Bc 'goth' crowds favor her to WW? Well, damn, I didnt realize that crowd (or those groups of people) made up the majority here. Especialy considering Death doesnt bring in 1/16 of the money WW does (profit=popularity=society impact=majority).

see, you're biased here because you're not that familiar with Death or fond of her and you love Wonder Woman. i love both characters for what they are, and as a character i think Death is better. that's me personally. apparently there are plenty of people on staff and off who agree with that. does that make it right? no. this is all subjective, but through the process we tried to present as fairly balanced an opinion as possible. almost everyone i know of who knows the character of Death (which is considerable) likes her. While a large number of people who know of Wonder Woman look at her almost as a joke. do i agree with this view? no. but i think things have been done with her over the years to cultivate this view. it's not just goths who think this. i don't even actually know anyone who's goth. i think we maybe have one or two on staff, and Death still was voted the better character.

look, i've been reading comics almost as long as you have...Marvel, DC, Vertigo, Wildstorm, Image, Dark Horse, Oni...all over the place. you admit that while you have a good knowledge of the DCU that you have only read a handful of Death appearances. so it seems to me like you don't have a full understanding, either in the context of the books or in actual popularity and impact, of Death's character. so again, you're coming from a rather biased (you love Wonder Woman) and uninformed (you don't know much about Death) position.


Not true.

While the characters visage was very in line with what one would think of when you hear Death (like the Grim Reaper, etc) her reason for being was not evil. Wanting someone dead might be percieved as evil, but she was created and shown to hold a balance. Marvel used her character (and Galactus) to explain that the Universe (at least this fictitious Universe) needed a balance. She wasnt going out murdering or scaring people, she was simply doing her job, what she was in existance to do.

In now way is this a slam to Gaimen. Hes INCREDIBLY talented and I look forward to reading more of his upcoming writing (and Im REALY curious what hes doing for Marvel... Sentry maybe?)... I just honestly cant grasp how Death can be considered a greater character... given that there is nothing nearly as unique or original about her as there is WW. And as I said throughout this whole post, the impact she has had on society, the importance of her character, FAR outways that of Death...

the Marvel Death is still a grim and dour figure. i didn't say Death is always portrayed as evil. i said that's one way of seeing the character when it's personified. but it's always as a very dark figure...if not evil, then cold or stoic or cryptic. Gaiman portrayed Death as someone positive, someone caring and nurturing and fun. Someone you'd like to meet at the end of your life. and THAT is original and unique. she is popular and beloved both in the regular comics reading audience and in the mainstream who've discovered her in book stores. celebrities in multiple fields like Tori Amos, Stephen King, Clive Barker and Claire Danes adore and praise her. just because you can't see the reasons she's so great don't mean they're not there.

and again, i'm not saying this to slam Wonder Woman. I love Wonder Woman and think she's full deserving of a spot in the top ten. hell, i'd understand and respect it if she ranked even higher. i wrote her damn entry! and if i took all things into consideration, i'd probably give her a higher ranking for her impact and history even though i personally think Death is a better character. but this isn't Jordan's list. and it isn't troy's list. A lot of people put time and energy and thought into this list (BELIEVE me on that one...my brain's still fried), so try to have a little more respect, not only for their opinions but for the fact that most of us have been reading comics as long as you, if not longer, and know what we're talking about. ;)

Dylan McKay
Mar 1, 2005, 03:16 am
It's worth noting that Sandman: Endless Nights hardcover made it onto the New York Times bestsellers list for hardcover fiction. No other American comic, except maybe those done by Spiegelman can even begin to try to be a top bookstore seller. Heck, even with the recent manga invasion, no manga could get that kind of reception. To say that Sandman isn't popular is a massive understatement. Sandman is one of the only comics in American history to be truely popular, and not just popular as a comic book.

Then what rules did you use to make these decisions?

If popularity wasnt one of the criteria, then what determines a characters "greatness?"


There is no set guidelines, but things I looked for:
-Status/Popularity/Icon Status
-Story potential/Strength of stories written with them in a prominant role. (Probably the #1 factor for me.)
-Importance to comics
-And the unavoidable hint of personal bias.

Probably some other factors as well, but we did the voting in November and December and my memory is awful...

Al Harahap
Mar 1, 2005, 04:45 am
Then what rules did you use to make these decisions?

If popularity wasnt one of the criteria, then what determines a characters "greatness?"

I asked the contributors to consider equally: originality (during the time of the character's conception), characterisation and development (which would include progression and regression), role in his/her respective world, role for DC Comics, role for comicdom in general, iconability, popularity, and of course the personal x factor.

Popularity may not be a major criterion most of us looked at, but definitely a byproduct of some of the rest.

Ovid
Mar 1, 2005, 11:12 am
I could never really identify with an Alien God

I don't identify with Superman because he's an alien or was born with powers, but because he sees the best in people.

In the end its really a question of darkness vs light, and well im rather photosensative.

:rofl:

There's a party game where you ask whether people would prefer to be able to fly or make themselves invisible. I'm definitely a flyer.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 1, 2005, 04:00 pm
There's a party game where you ask whether people would prefer to be able to fly or make themselves invisible. I'm definitely a flyer.

would this game somehow involve drinking? because otherwise, i don't see the fun of it. ;)

(maybe doing shots UNTIL you feel like you can fly or you're convinced that you're invisible? i don't know, work with me here people!)

troy2g1
Mar 1, 2005, 07:11 pm
No, its not Troys list. Its a list of The 70 Greatest DC Characters. Yea, I get that.

I also get that it SHOULD be objective. I dont particulary care for Superman (well, at least what DC has done with him in the past decade) but I recognize and respect he is THE symbol of heros and is probably the most recognized comic book character ever.

Lets put something in perspective here: You ignore the fact that Wonder Woman epitomizes the genre. If there was no WW, if WW was a failure as a character, then there would be NO Death.

If you go to Africa, they will not know who Death is. But they DAMN sure will know who Wonder Woman is.

Do I love WW? Sure. I think shes a great character with loads of potential who isnt the carbon copy of any other character. She is, for all intents and purposes, original and creative. And she isnt exactly a "hero" like Superman is. I find her intresting.

I never said I disliked Death. I never said her character wasnt intresting. Gaimen was excellent with the stories he told; but his character was in no way original. Was her playful and happy personality common among characters who personified Death? No. Was it a new concept and original? No.

Im used to people disliking WW. Thats not a big deal for me (as evident by my debates on the Vs thread by people who consider her weak or slow, etc, when her continuity proves otherwise). I dont take offense, these are fictional characters.

I do however disagree with the placement she has on this list.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 1, 2005, 07:21 pm
there's no way this could be an objective list, though, because it's all about taste and interpretation, which are inherently subjective. and like i said, Wonder Woman belongs on this list. by my personal accounting, she should be higher...but a lot of people worked on this and she ended up where she is. and i can see and understand the argument for that. you don't think i know Wonder Woman's awesome and deserves to be on this list? i wrote her freaking entry, i know Wonder Woman. i find Death to be a more compelling character, so i'm actually glad against my own opinion on the matter that she ranked higher than Diana. you say she's not popular, original, iconic or recognizeable...she is all of those things. and if they have book stores in Africa, damn skippy they know who Death is. you want to go over there and take a poll? because otherwise that kind of statement is just useless hyperbole.

and if there was no Wonder Woman...of COURSE there'd still be a Death! Sandman wouldn't have its loose ties to the Wonder Woman mythos, but there's a pretty fair shot the series would still exist and that Gaiman would still have created Death. You say Wonder Woman epitomizes the genre. she's not the only one, but i agree. except that Death and Dream aren't in that genre. they're not superhero characters...an argument could MAYBE be made for Dream, but not Death. she's not a superhero. so her existence in comic books is not dependent on Wonder Woman's.

look, i see and i agree with many of your points...about Wonder Woman, not about Death. what i'm asking is that you at least consider the views and arguments of the number of people who put this list together and who agree with it. you don't have to agree or accept it, but i would ask that you at least open your mind to them and respect them.

troy2g1
Mar 1, 2005, 07:44 pm
When VH1 counted down the top 200 Icons, where was Death? Wonder Woman was there.

This list ONLY included these comic book character: Superman, Spider Man, Batman & Wonder Woman.

No Death. No Sandman. No Constantine. No Joker.

Because of this little debate we were having, I actualy asked around today. I spoke with coworkers, friends, family members, etc. I asked them 2 questions:

1) Do you know who Wonder Woman is?
2) Do you know who Death is?

Well, it should be no surprise that every single person knew who Wonder Woman was. No hesitation, all 'yes.'

However, when I asked people who Death was, I had to explain. She was a DC Comics character. She appeared in the Sandman series. She was created/written by Neil Gaimen. Still, not one person I asked knew who she was. Nobody.

I never said I didnt respect the work that was put into the list. I do however disagree with the Top 5. Yes, it is my opinion. But its a FACT that Wonder Woman is MUCH more well known character than "Death" is. That shouldnt even be up for debate.

Lisa Charly
Mar 1, 2005, 08:23 pm
I, actually, know of no one in my area (Nevada) who doesn't read comics, yet knows who Death (the character) is. I know because I read comics, but I highly doubt Death is as iconic as Wondy. That said, iconability doesn't mean a helluva a lot to actual characterization.

Al Harahap
Mar 1, 2005, 08:43 pm
Because of this little debate we were having, I actualy asked around today. I spoke with coworkers, friends, family members, etc. I asked them 2 questions:

1) Do you know who Wonder Woman is?
2) Do you know who Death is?

Well, it should be no surprise that every single person knew who Wonder Woman was. No hesitation, all 'yes.'

However, when I asked people who Death was, I had to explain. She was a DC Comics character. She appeared in the Sandman series. She was created/written by Neil Gaimen. Still, not one person I asked knew who she was. Nobody.

I never said I didnt respect the work that was put into the list. I do however disagree with the Top 5. Yes, it is my opinion. But its a FACT that Wonder Woman is MUCH more well known character than "Death" is. That shouldnt even be up for debate.

And a few weeks ago, I went around asking people:

1) Do you know the movie Meet the Fockers?
2) Do you know the movie Million Dollar Baby?

You can guess which one got more recognition. Does that mean Meet the Fockers should've gotten a Best Picture Oscar nod? In their contexts, these mini-surveys are moot.

Ann Nichols
Mar 1, 2005, 08:50 pm
I wanted to see who was #1 and who was #2 and the results were as expected.

Robb Welch
Mar 1, 2005, 11:23 pm
Well, Barry launched the Silver Age, helped found the Justice League, and died one of the most iconic and permanent deaths of any comic book character ever. Wally has done a lot for himself, certainly, but I do not recall him ever inspiring a whole new era of comic book interest... plus, his deaths tend not to stick. ;)


- Raul
Well if you want to be like that....
Barry didnt usher in anything other than a fad of re-imaginings of golden age superheroes.
Martian Manhunter first apeared a few months before Barry.

Robb Welch
Mar 1, 2005, 11:26 pm
As much as I love Vertigo, and feel at home with Vertigo, this list hasnt shown me anything new except for the not so stunning proof that the current mods are vertigo snobs.
Take it as a compliment if you want.
Objectisim be damned.

raul grau
Mar 2, 2005, 12:45 am
Well if you want to be like that.... Barry didnt usher in anything other than a fad of re-imaginings of golden age superheroes. Martian Manhunter first apeared a few months before Barry.
... and, five years earlier, Captain Comet showed up, a character based entirely on science, and arguably the first mutant in comic book history. Of course, neither Comet nor J'onn made a huge splash, and it took Barry to make new(ish) heroes popular again. It is a universal truth in the comic book industry... readers will most fervently embrace the next new thing, as long as the next new thing is closely related to something old and familiar. ;)

As much as I love Vertigo, and feel at home with Vertigo, this list hasnt shown me anything new except for the not so stunning proof that the current mods are vertigo snobs. Take it as a compliment if you want.
Ok, thank you, though I am also very disturbed by the list results. How could John Constantine be #3? He clearly deserves the top spot! Superman only ever appeared in one issue of Sandman... that is not nearly enough to make you a top character. I, in my Vertigo snobbery, insist that four Vertigo characters in the top 10 is six too few!

- Raul

Robb Welch
Mar 2, 2005, 01:32 am
readers will most fervently embrace the next new thing, as long as the next new thing is closely related to something old and familiar. ;)

Aint that the truth.....



Ok, thank you, though I am also very disturbed by the list results. How could John Constantine be #3? He clearly deserves the top spot! Superman only ever appeared in one issue of Sandman... that is not nearly enough to make you a top character. I, in my Vertigo snobbery, insist that four Vertigo characters in the top 10 is six too few!

- Raul

Well at least hes got a sense of humor about it.....

At least I hope thats what that is...

Dylan McKay
Mar 2, 2005, 04:02 am
When VH1 counted down the top 200 Icons, where was Death? Wonder Woman was there.

This list ONLY included these comic book character: Superman, Spider Man, Batman & Wonder Woman.

No Death. No Sandman. No Constantine. No Joker.

Because of this little debate we were having, I actualy asked around today. I spoke with coworkers, friends, family members, etc. I asked them 2 questions:

1) Do you know who Wonder Woman is?
2) Do you know who Death is?

Well, it should be no surprise that every single person knew who Wonder Woman was. No hesitation, all 'yes.'

However, when I asked people who Death was, I had to explain. She was a DC Comics character. She appeared in the Sandman series. She was created/written by Neil Gaimen. Still, not one person I asked knew who she was. Nobody.

I never said I didnt respect the work that was put into the list. I do however disagree with the Top 5. Yes, it is my opinion. But its a FACT that Wonder Woman is MUCH more well known character than "Death" is. That shouldnt even be up for debate.

But known does not mean better. Aquaman is more known than Dream, should Aquaman have been above Dream?

Dylan McKay
Mar 2, 2005, 04:12 am
... and, five years earlier, Captain Comet showed up, a character based entirely on science, and arguably the first mutant in comic book history. Of course, neither Comet nor J'onn made a huge splash, and it took Barry to make new(ish) heroes popular again. It is a universal truth in the comic book industry... readers will most fervently embrace the next new thing, as long as the next new thing is closely related to something old and familiar. ;)

Heck, Captain Comet is probably only remembered now for his role in Robinson/Smith's kick ass mini-series Golden Age.


Ok, thank you, though I am also very disturbed by the list results. How could John Constantine be #3? He clearly deserves the top spot! Superman only ever appeared in one issue of Sandman... that is not nearly enough to make you a top character. I, in my Vertigo snobbery, insist that four Vertigo characters in the top 10 is six too few!

- Raul

Nay! For then Myra Fermin, truely the largest ommission from the list would have been left out. Sure, she was a proto-Vertigo character, but never an actual Vertigo character.

What's funny is that asside from Two-Face Harvey Dent, most of the glarring ommissions are Vertigo characters. A bunch from Preacher (Herr Starr, Saint of Killers, Tulip, Cassidy & Arse-Face.) Channon from Transmet, A complete lack of Invisibles, Micheal from Enigma, Shade: The Changing Man, The rest of the regular cast of Sandman, I could go on. The thing is, Vertigo comics are simply better stories, so, yeah, shame on us for allowing quality to effect our top lists...

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 2, 2005, 04:50 am
When VH1 counted down the top 200 Icons, where was Death? Wonder Woman was there.

This list ONLY included these comic book character: Superman, Spider Man, Batman & Wonder Woman.

No Death. No Sandman. No Constantine. No Joker.

Because of this little debate we were having, I actualy asked around today. I spoke with coworkers, friends, family members, etc. I asked them 2 questions:

1) Do you know who Wonder Woman is?
2) Do you know who Death is?

Well, it should be no surprise that every single person knew who Wonder Woman was. No hesitation, all 'yes.'

However, when I asked people who Death was, I had to explain. She was a DC Comics character. She appeared in the Sandman series. She was created/written by Neil Gaimen. Still, not one person I asked knew who she was. Nobody.

I never said I didnt respect the work that was put into the list. I do however disagree with the Top 5. Yes, it is my opinion. But its a FACT that Wonder Woman is MUCH more well known character than "Death" is. That shouldnt even be up for debate.

yes it should. your validity comes from a small sampling of a group of people (your co workers) and VH1, the people who brought us the cultural genius of "Strange Love" and "I Love the 90s." of course most of the people i ask would know who Wonder Woman is, but they would also know who Death is. They would know who Joker is. Hell, they would know who John Constantine is. and only a very few of them are comic book readers. everyone else in my circle of friends are just pop culture fanatics and literary people. they don't recognize characters just because they've been on TV, but because they're popular in the bookstores as well. Sandman and the Death minis are very popular amongst people who frequent bookstores, so much so that the recent Endless Night graphic novel had the prestigious position of being a New York Times Best Seller. Name a Wonder Woman collection or issue that's had that honor, and i'll concede the popularity. but not the better character.

Well if you want to be like that....
Barry didnt usher in anything other than a fad of re-imaginings of golden age superheroes.
Martian Manhunter first apeared a few months before Barry.

yes, and he along with Barry Allen and Hal Jordan ushered in the Silver Age, as any comics historian worth his salt will tell you. except Barry actually had depth to his character (unlike most of Hal's appearances), could sustain his own solo series (unlike J'onn) and actually did something that contributed in a large way later on to the DCU (no, Zero Hour does not freaking count and shame on you for thinking of it.) :P

As much as I love Vertigo, and feel at home with Vertigo, this list hasnt shown me anything new except for the not so stunning proof that the current mods are vertigo snobs.
Take it as a compliment if you want.
Objectisim be damned.

you can't be objective in a list like this. it's all about opinion and interpretation. there are a number of staff (it wasn't just mods, thank you) who worked on this who've never read or only picked up a couple of Vertigo titles. that's the truth. and four Vertigo characters STILL cracked the top ten. if that doesn't tell you something significant, then you're not paying attention.

oh, and don't double post. it's against the rules. ;)


What's funny is that asside from Two-Face Harvey Dent, most of the glarring ommissions are Vertigo characters. A bunch from Preacher (Herr Starr, Saint of Killers, Tulip, Cassidy & Arse-Face.) Channon from Transmet, A complete lack of Invisibles, Micheal from Enigma, Shade: The Changing Man, The rest of the regular cast of Sandman, I could go on. The thing is, Vertigo comics are simply better stories, so, yeah, shame on us for allowing quality to effect our top lists...

really? i'd put Yelena above Channon, personally. but yes, the complete lack of Invisibles and 100 Bullets representation (you're new to the 100 Bullets realm, so i'll let your omission slide Dylan), as well as some great characters from Preacher and Sandman (Rose? Hob? Fiddler's Green? Matthew the Raven? Mervyn? Lucien? C'mon, people!)...trust me, if us Vertigo snobs had had our way, you'd be dealing with a LOT more existential angst and post modernism. ;)

Dylan McKay
Mar 2, 2005, 05:00 am
really? i'd put Yelena above Channon, personally. but yes, the complete lack of Invisibles and 100 Bullets representation (you're new to the 100 Bullets realm, so i'll let your omission slide Dylan), as well as some great characters from Preacher and Sandman (Rose? Hob? Fiddler's Green? Matthew the Raven? Mervyn? Lucien? C'mon, people!)...trust me, if us Vertigo snobs had had our way, you'd be dealing with a LOT more existential angst and post modernism. ;)

I did nominate and vote for Graves, but I think only you and I did and hence he didn't make it. I would have included the 100 Bullets characters, but I realized I was at risk of listing another 70 characters if I started including more series, so I just quit once my point was made.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 2, 2005, 05:02 am
hell, i missed the nomination process and got confused, so ended up voting for Graves, Shepard, Loop, Dizzy, Cole, Lono (think i made the mistake of leaving off my personal favorite, Wylie), King Mob, Lord Fanny, Ragged Robin, Dane, Boy, Mister Six, Sir Miles Delacourt and i think i might've thrown a couple of votes to Jim Crow and the Blind Chessman. talk about a wasted ballot. ;)

Dylan McKay
Mar 2, 2005, 05:07 am
Yeah, I think when we voted I had only read one or two volumes, so I didn't know just how freaking cool Shepard, Cole, Dizzy et al are. Although I would also include Megan Dietrich... And possibly Benito Medici.

Ovid
Mar 2, 2005, 06:58 am
Slightly off topic, but didn't know where else to post. Just wanted to say thanks to the staff for the all the DC anniversary stuff. I'm sure it took a lot of work, research, writing and, I'm guessing here, argument. It's been great fun and very educational (not to mention expensive). Many, many thanks!

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 2, 2005, 07:03 am
oh, very much argument...i remember nearly threatening physical violence on Joel over the possibility of honorable mentions on the top ten lists. and frying my brain on this column in particular, for reasons best left unsaid...

Lord Exodus
Mar 2, 2005, 10:03 am
Good list. Happy birthday DC (or something)

Ken Boehm
Mar 2, 2005, 12:59 pm
If only all this DC stuff Comix-Fan did would actually make its way into the DC forums and bring those back from the dead. Come on people!

Luke Heller
Mar 2, 2005, 01:55 pm
#4 Joker

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/4.jpg"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/4t.jpg" align="left" hspace=10 alt="Joker"></a>First Appearance: Batman #1
Created by: Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson

...Once a failed comedian, he took a job as the Red Hood to pay rent for himself and his pregnant wife-- only to fall into a vat of chemicals while trying to evade the Bat. Arising deformed and finding his wife dead-- by accident or design is still a question today-- the Joker was born.

At least that is the way the Joker remembers it on some days. Other days he remembers it differently.

The Killing Joke has to be the best Joker story-- EVER!

Crap In A Hat! It might be the BEST single comic book story-- EVER! (IMHO, of course)

James Groves
Mar 2, 2005, 02:46 pm
Excellent top 10. No disagreements and, again, very well written.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 2, 2005, 06:54 pm
having written literally half of it...i'll go ahead and say, thanks. ;)

Robb Welch
Mar 3, 2005, 01:02 am
could have shorn this list was about greatness. Not popularity.

Jordan T. Maxwell
Mar 3, 2005, 01:09 am
it was about many things...greatness and popularity being two of them (and when your criteria are that subjective and the opinions of staff are naturally subjective, there is no way to produce an actual objective list like this. It would be impossible, unless you found a way empirically quantify everything about a character and enter it into a supercomputer which could then calculate the list...and that's boring as hell) :P

raven1979
Mar 6, 2005, 01:09 am
Death is to high on the list (over Morpheus) , so is Barry Allen, Wally is much better as a character even if not considered as "iconic".

Good to see Constantine at the number 3 slot, he may not be as popular or sell as many books as some other "icons" in the spandex crowd, but his personality is far more interisting and complex than so many of the cardboard heroes and villains.