TOP 10 TEEN TITANS STORIES

[raul grau]

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/Teen-Titans-Logo-Stories.JPG " align=left border=0 hspace=10 alt="Top 10 Teen Titans Stories logo">By: Raul Grau, Jon Hancock, Matt Lazorwitz, Jordan T. Maxwell
Editor: Raul Grau

In 1965, Teen Titans (the series) was the only venue to read about Teen Titans (the team). In the forty years since, the Titans masthead has appeared atop ten regular titles, several miniseries, a few assorted specials, and even an animated equivalent. What began with four perky teenagers has grown to encompass over four hundred individual issues spread across four decades, but which of these many tales are truly the best?

From the quiet Wedding of Donna Troy to the epic JLA/Titans, the Titans franchise contains nearly as many storytelling genres as it does members. As part of our commemoration of their fortieth anniversary, the staff of Comixfan were brought together to determine which Titans stories earned the Top spots. Here we present the ten Titans Stories that made us laugh, made us cry, or simply made us marvel.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/10.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/10t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Going Home"></a>#10 Going Home

As chronicled in: New Titans #126
Writer: Dale Hrebik
Artist: Rik Mays

Sandwiched between two intergalactic wars, Going Home was a quiet tale proving that the Titans did not spend all of their time in interstellar combat. It is even more of a rarity when you consider the writing credit. Marv Wolfman, co-creator of the New Teen Titans and guiding force behind their existence for nearly sixteen years, had taken an issue off. The Arsenal-led Titans incarnation was just entering their second year together, but this highly personal story revealed them to be a family, despite what later retcons say. Donna Troy fell back into her role as den mother, overly nurturing the younger heroes to their chagrin, and the flirtatiousness hit a high note with a four-sided love triangle (love square?) between Impulse, Rose Wilson, Green Lantern, and Darkstar. Granted, there was action, but in the midst of the Macguyver-like opening, Arsenal worried that he was placing his team before his daughter. The Wolfman/Perez era was defined by its attention to characterization, and this story was a nod back to when interpersonal mattered more than intergalactic. Four issues later, Wolfman would depart the franchise permanently, taking the series with him, but this issue showed that you really can go home again.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/9.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/9t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="2001: A Titans Odyssey"></a>#9 2001: A Titans Odyssey

As chronicled in: New Titans Annual #7
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artists: Tom Grindberg, Wille Blyberg, Ian Akin, and Al Vey

In the near future, America is a utopian paradise... as long as you do not cross Lord Chaos. The footsoldiers of Chaos lace the food and water with sedatives, creating a complacent populace. The only citizens willing to stand up to the establishment are the Teen Titans, a vast network of heroic cells, guided by one shadowy leader. Laden with survivor's guilt, Nightwing leads his combat unit, which includes a vampire, a sentient computer program, and a hauntingly familiar young girl with an affinity for geology. These Titans are surprisingly vicious in their methods, but theirs is a darker world, and their fight is one for freedom. They will commit any atrocity for the greater good, even the murder of an old friend... that is our future, the far off year of 2001. The DCU of four years ago might have been a bit less dire than Armageddon 2001 predicted, but 2001: A Titans Odyssey was one of the few summer annuals to have a lasting impact. Though the narrative itself was little more than an Elseworlds, the future Titans soon made their way to the present, running afoul of their modern counterparts. The Team Titans proved popular enough for their own series, and while the events of Zero Hour worked to erase them from existence, the new Terra was not going anywhere. Her predecessor was unrepentant evil, but this version had all the confidence without the craziness. It is ironic that it took a dark future to give us a bright Terra.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/8.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/8t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Super Friends or How Many Titans Does It Take To Trash An Apartment?"></a>#8 Super Friends or How Many Titans Does It Take To Trash An Apartment?

As chronicled in: The Titans: Secret Files & Origins #2
Writer: Geoff Johns and Ben Raab
Artist: Drew Johnson

Aren't recruitment drives fun? Especially when they involve super powers. Beast Boy's cousin Matt takes it upon himself to reunite Titans West, a team that went defunct for a very good reason. Firebird and Beast Boy return to find that Matt has decided that a team can never be too big, and what follows is a knees up to end all knees ups. In the aftermath is formed a new legend, Titans L.A., the team to be called whenever movie stars are in peril. And as you might have guessed the longevity of the team was somewhat limited. Officially the team split as no one kept in touch, but seriously, how often does Tom Cruise fight real aliens? Super Friends is not just a really fun tale, it also sets a nice precedent for the comedy super team that has become ten a penny nowadays. Born and killed off in a back up story, Titans L.A. falls into the same vein as GLA, New Warriors and Alpha Flight, though, for some, that may not be a good thing.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/7.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/7t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Titans Tomorrow"></a>#7 Titans Tomorrow

As chronicled in: Teen Titans (3rd series) #17-19
Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Mike McKone

Great Titans tales generally have either intriguing teenage relationships, coming of age moments, or crazy cosmic capers. Titans Tomorrow has them all. Reminiscent of Grant Morrison's JLA: Earth 2, the Titans travel to a future reality where they have grown up as rulers. Nasty rulers. Coming out of their adventure with the soon to be rebooted Legion of Super Heroes, the team is faced with their darkest nightmares made real. Tim a remorseless killer, Kon an unstoppable fascist with a bald daddy, even Gar a feral monster. In the course of saving the day, the heroes learn some very important lessons about themselves. They learn of the team's importance to the rest of the DCU, Tim learns that tragedy is just around the corner, and Kon learns that he really shouldn't keep secrets. Titans Tomorrow brings the new kids together as a family for the first time. It takes them to extreme places both emotionally and physically. Ultimately, it shows that if the Titans are not together, the DCU suffers, no matter the era.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/6.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/6t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="The Trial of Deathstroke"></a>#6 The Trial of Deathstroke

As chronicled in: Tales of the Teen Titans #53-55
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artists: Rick Buckler and Ron Randall

The Titans have had many worthy adversaries: Brother Blood, the Wildebeest Society, the HIVE, the Mad Mod (ok, maybe not him), but none of them is the equal of Deathstroke, the Terminator. The Terminator played the Titans, introducing a traitor into their midst and then using their secrets to nearly destroy them. And when he was captured and put on trial, the Titans hoped for justice. All but one. Gar Logan, Changeling, hoped for vengeance. The Trial of Deathstroke really is Gar’s story, as we watch him spiral deeper and deeper into a vengeance, bordering on madness. In the end, after the Terminator is released from jail and Gar goes to confront him one last time, it is words that stop him, not violence. This is a story that shows Gar, at the time the youngest and most immature Titan, grow up, becoming something more that he was. There isn’t a great battle between Changeling and Deathstroke in the end, but a conversation held in a diner. The two talk about where they’ve been and where they’re going, and Gar walks out with a new perspective and a bit more peace.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/5.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/5t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Lights Out"></a>#5 Lights Out

As chronicled in: Teen Titans (3rd series) #21-23
Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Mike McKone

Mia Dearden's first official day as a member of the Teen Titans started out simply enough. But whereas most initiations involve some kind of drinking game or practical joke, the new Speedy's would prove deadly serious. For years, Dr. Light had been a joke, a goofball villain who the Titans would take on and take out regularly...but that was before he realized that the Justice League of America had taken away his mind, his intelligence, his identity. So Light kidnapped Green Arrow to bait a trap for the Titans and call them out. And his plan worked perfectly...too perfectly, as nearly every surviving member of every incarnation of the team showed up. They defeated Light and saved the day, but it took every last one of them fighting together to even come close. Dr. Light had achieved his goal. He had given the Titans a great battle and regained his reputation. As a story in the modern DCU, Lights Out serves as a continuation of the events in Identity Crisis, bridging into the upcoming Infinite Crisis, and as such will be an integral part of the mythos for some time to come. But more importantly, it is a love letter to the history of the Titans themselves...as a team, as young heroes, and as a family.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/4.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/4t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="New Teen Titans"></a>#4 New Teen Titans

As chronicled in: New Teen Titans #1-6
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artist: George Perez

Before Marv Wolfman and George Perez partnered, the Teen Titans were a youth club for sidekicks, dealing exclusively with threats of the secondary school variety. Then, in 1980, with a restructured line-up and rechristened title, the New Teen Titans set about the business of saving the world on a monthly basis. Long gone were Mad Mod and the Separated Man, these Titans faced an alien army, a determined Deathstroke, the freshly formed Fearsome Five, and the terrifying Trigon... all in their opening storyline. Though as troubling as their foes were, these Titans had other issues to contend with. Starfire was confused about her new homeworld, and Kid Flash was confused about his feelings. Cyborg blamed his father for his mechanized state, and they all blamed Raven for forcing them together in the first place. In the end, they won a temporary victory against all-consuming evil, but emerged as a team. The New Teen Titans were not yet the family they would become, but with an eye for interpersonal relationships, Marv Wolfman laid the groundwork for his groundbreaking sixteen year run. Twenty-five years later, this incarnation of the Titans is still hailed as their defining grouping, so, for once, Newer was actually better.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/3.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/3t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Titans Hunt"></a>#3 Titans Hunt

As chronicled in: New Titans #71-84
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artist: Tom Grummet, Curt Swan, Kerry Gammill, and Paris Cullins

In their heyday in the mid-80s, the New Teen Titans stood head to head with a certain band of merry mutants when it came to sales and the adoration of the comic reading public. But by 1990, a lot of the fans had fallen away, and so the creators decided it was time for some major changes. The Wildebeest Society, a covert organization that had often fought the Titans, attacked the team with renewed purpose and knowledge they should not have had, kidnapping many, and killing those they could not. As the story progressed, some old Titans, including team leader Nightwing, were joined by new members Pantha and Red Star, as well as their nemesis Deathstroke, to track down the missing heroes. In the end, the traitor was revealed to be Jericho, Deathstroke’s son, tainted by the essence of Raven’s demon father Trigon. The final battle left many Titans and their allies, including Jericho and Raven, seemingly dead, and others changed forever. Titans Hunt really broke the stagnation that the book had settled into. New characters came, and the future of the Titans was charted. The ramifications are still being felt in the current incarnation, with the return of Jericho’s spirit and the rebirth of Raven. But even with these changes reversed, the emotional power of the original story, with the death and sacrifice of so many heroes, still rings true.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/2.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/2t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="The Terror of Trigon"></a>#2 The Terror of Trigon

As chronicled in: New Teen Titans (2nd series) #1-5
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artist: George Perez
Collected in: The New Teen Titans: The Terror of Trigon

When you think of the Teen Titans, preventing an apocalypse isn't usually the first thing that comes to mind. But when Raven first brought together the “New” incarnation of the team, it was with the intent of battling her demonic father Trigon. Since then, however, Raven's appearance had slowly, gradually, and subtly changed...her countenance becoming less and less human every day. Her teammates, wishing to respect her privacy, never noticed. Or didn't want to, until it was too late. Raven finally succumbed to her diabolical destiny, serving as the conduit for her father to destroy his dimension of exile and all its inhabitants...and then to enter our own and warp it with his evil presence. The Titans were helpless against the combined might of Raven and Trigon, fighting their own fears and doubts, facing insurmountable odds with no hope of victory...yet fighting on regardless. In the end, fallen at the hands of her former allies, it was Raven who proved the key to victory as she rose up and channeled the emotional energies of the dimension of innocent souls massacred by Trigon, destroying him once and for all. Dramatically speaking, this may be the most powerful Titans story of all time as the Titans persevere through the toughest of trials, as Raven transcends from her fallen state to a redeemed grace, proving themselves as heroes in the face of the end of the world.

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<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/1.jpg" target="_target"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10tstories/1t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Judas Contract"></a>#1 Judas Contract

As chronicled in: Tales of the Teen Titans #42-44, Tales of the Teen Titans Annual #3
Writer: Marv Wolfman
Artist: George Perez
Collected in: The New Teen Titans: The Judas Contract

Seeing Wolfman and Perez's names in the top slots of this list should come as a surprise to no one. These are the men who defined the Titans as something more than just a group of wacky teen sidekicks. They gave the book its edge, its maturity, its angst, its sexuality. In short, they're the ones who brought the Titans out of childhood and into adolescence (and out of the great respect I have for both creators, I hope they'll forgive me for portraying them as some kind of meta-fictional puberty). That maturity, with all its pitfalls, was most clearly portrayed in The Judas Contract as the team discovered what readers already knew...that one of their own, Tara Markov, the Titan known as Terra, was in reality a spy for their nemesis Deathstroke. There was no motive. No grand scheme or deep seeded vendetta against the Titans. Just a rotten girl who wanted to be a bad guy. It was the first time the Titans had known that kind of treachery, that kind of betrayal. The battle cry of "Titans Together!" rings hollow when you don't know if you can trust those you're coming together with. But as with all things, from the destruction wrought by Terra's deception came fresh changes and growth. Dick Grayson came out of his post-Robin retirement to take on the more grown-up guise of Nightwing. Deathstroke's son Jericho joined the ranks and proved an invaluable member. And the Titans as a team, through the heartbreak and tribulation, had to grow up a little bit more, and though one would expect them to perhaps not trust each other as much as a team...they pulled even closer together as a family.

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So there you have the Top 10 Teen Titans Stories, those tales which most captivated the reader, even if most of them have not captivated DC enough to publish more Titans trades. We hope that you have enjoyed our little tribute to the Titans, and we have just one more feature coming along to cap off our coverage...

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2001: A Titans Odyssey, Going Home, New Teen Titans: Raul Grau
Judas Contract, Lights Out, The Terror of Trigon: Jordan T. Maxwell
How Many Titans Does It Take To Trash An Apartment?, Titans Tomorrow: Jon Hancock
Titans Hunt, The Trial of Deathstroke: Matt Lazorwitz
Contributors: James Groves, Juan de Joya
Image Assistance: Nick Costanzo, John Q.T. Nguyen

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writers involved, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.

[HNutz]

GOOD list. While I'm more of a recent follower of the Titans (I have all of the current series, for example) and I've been hearing lots of good things about the Wolfman/Perez team, I'm glad to hear about the other writers and artists that have left their mark on the team, and look forward to tracking down some of those collections.

[Ken Boehm]

What about the "marriage" of Nightwing and Starfire? I thought that would get up there. #11 or something?

I'm suprised Lights Out got that high up being out only 6 months. To each his own, but I would have thought the first 6 issues of the new series would have been a better choice. Plus, we all saw how cool Impulse really is.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

well, almost all of the current series has been really good. but i think we chose Lights Out not only for its relevance and impact on the current state of the DCU overall, but the respect it pays to the Titans history. plus, it's just a really kick ass story with some truly amazing artwork.

[DntWryBoutMyNme]

To each his own, but I would have thought the first 6 issues of the new series would have been a better choice. Plus, we all saw how cool Impulse really is.

While I agree that Lights Out was one of the best stories ever because it showed that former Titans (Even Flash!) will always be Titans, I'm surprised that Graduation Day didn't make it on the list at all. Was it ever brought into consideration?

Great List, Guys, by the way.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

i believe it was nominated. i don't believe i personally voted for it myself. while i found the concept and actual plot to be really sound and dramatic, the execution left something to be desired.

[Dylan McKay]

Hmm, I have enjoyed the Titans, but often found them lacking in execution, I think I shall track down some of the one shots.

[Jon Hancock]

Personally I really didn't enjoy the first six issues of the current series. In fact everything up to the end of the Brother Blood arc felt cramped and like Geoff was finding his feet. Since then it's all been good :D

Graduation Day falls as an event rather than a story IMO (though it does have a special place for being where all this Infinite Crisis stuff started. Try planning a mega event for nearly three years rather than throwing something together on a whim next time Marvel :P)

[Iceboy Ben]

I...don't care for this list, sorry guys.

There's no way you can have a Top 10 Titans Stories list without 'Who Is Donna Troy' and 'A Day in the Life.'

I didn't really care for Titans Hunt enough to put it so high (though it does deserve a spot) and there's no way the Armageddon 2001 crossover should even be top 25.

'Lights Out' is a great story, but I think it needs to stand the test of time before we proclaim it top ten (and I know Geoff would agree).

I do applaud including stories like 'Coming Home,' which was definitely an underrated gem.

Still, to each their own...

-Ben Morse

[Jon Hancock]

Who is Donna Tory was nominated. I didn't personally pick it as I don't particularly enjoy the character nor does the story rest easy in my mind thanks to the million origins she's had.

[evilomar]

Damn do these stories bring back memories. Memories of when the Teen Titans were as good as X-men thanks to Wolfman and Perez. Judas Contract #1 Hellz yeah, I don't think anyone could argue with that, even if they didn't read it when it first came out.

[Tan K.]

I used to be a big back issue fiend back when I was younger, but for some reason for the past few years, I haven't. "Who is Donna Troy" and "Judas Contract" are still eating at me to get, however. Just a matter of funds.

Titans Hunt got me interested in the Titans in the 90's. That is the Deathstroke that I know. I don't know much about him from the 80's, so I see him more as the Magneto type than the one that is out now. I like the one now as well because he is still such an incredible character (too bad bad writers muddled him down in the late 90's and early 2000's). Can anyone let me in on who Deathstroke is really supposed to be. Did he just get kinda noble because of Jericho during the Hunt?

I followed the Titans during Armageddon 2001, but I didn't find the Team Titans to be interesting enough to be on the list. However, as someone else said, to each his/her own.

[CJB]

Really enjoyable list--fond memories of some of those old Wolfman/Perez stories and have really liked Johns run. Makes me want to look out for some of those Titans stories you have in there.

Good job!

[helios]

The teen titans cartoon did better than the comic ever really did, actually the teen titans cartoon did better than the justice legue cartoon did. That would be cool if super boy were included in the cartoon line up. I could see him and robin getting into it all the time.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

the cartoon did better than the comic ever did? the comic that gave X-Men, the most popular comic of the time, a run for its money? suuuuure.

i'd rather keep Superboy out of the Titans cartoon. because it'd make no sense if it was a young Kal El and trying to explain Kon El to people would just get...well, annoying and confusing.

now, if they wanted to make Speedy a full time member... :D

[Anthony Lucynski]

I'm still waiting for my purchase of the ongoing series to come to me, but I get from reading this that Geoff Johns and Marv Wolfman were/are the only great Teen Titans writers?

Wolfman must of been like, the Chris Claremont of Teen Titans writers, eh?

Did anybody else write them besides the Dale Hrebickguy who got a spot on the list? It's just incredible to me that 2 writers get the credit for the best stories in a franchise that's celebrating such a long shelf life....

(disclaimer: Not complaining, just curious)

Anthony L

[raul grau]

Anthony, there have been many Titans writers over the past four decades, including Devin Grayson (who started the adjectiveless Titans series off) and Dan Jurgens (who handled all of the second volume of Teen Titans) in recent years, going all the way back to Neal Adams pulling double duty as both scripter and artist in the early 70s. However, Marv Wolfman is commonly considered to be their best writer, and with good reason. He started with the team during the 70s, and then began a sixteen year run in 1980 that introduced many of the Titans mainstays of today, including Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg.

I would say that Wolfman is the Titans' Chris Claremont, in that his lengthy tenure allowed him to move the team forward gradually, spending a lot of time on interpersonal relationships. However, the difference is that when Wolfman left in 1996, he never came back. ;)

That is the Deathstroke that I know. I don't know much about him from the 80's, so I see him more as the Magneto type than the one that is out now. I like the one now as well because he is still such an incredible character (too bad bad writers muddled him down in the late 90's and early 2000's). Can anyone let me in on who Deathstroke is really supposed to be. Did he just get kinda noble because of Jericho during the Hunt?Deathstroke was originally quite the mercenary, with no qualms about his actions as long as he was being paid enough. In the early 90s, he moved more to that 'anti-hero' mold, occasionally even helping the team, and taking on goodhearted assignments like a one man A-Team. Coincidentally, that coincides with the launch of his solo series, and the shelves might not have been ready for a book about an irredeemable villain (look how poorly the Joker did with his 'regular' series).

- Raul

[Roberto Polanco]

what I like about the Judas contract is that I had never read Titans before reading that story, and by trade's end I already felt each character like I've read ' em a million times. Great stuff

[helios]

the cartoon did better than the comic ever did? the comic that gave X-Men, the most popular comic of the time, a run for its money? suuuuure.

i'd rather keep Superboy out of the Titans cartoon. because it'd make no sense if it was a young Kal El and trying to explain Kon El to people would just get...well, annoying and confusing.

now, if they wanted to make Speedy a full time member... :D

Point one- Teen titans never gave X-Men a run for it's money, least of all not in my opinion. You can walk down the street and ask anyone who you see "Do you know who the X-Men are? Have you ever heard of Wolverine?" and they would more than likely know exactly who your talking about. Before the cartoon, who knew who Starfire was? Only fans of the Titans. Now, since the cartoon, every kid and parent knows who they are, but I still don't see the comic picking up.

Point two- Some characters can just show up and be cool. I don't watch the show much, because I'm not a big fan of DC anything, let alone cartoons that are a far cry from Anime, but an obviouse immatation, but I think it would be cool for Superboy to just show up in like 2 or 3 episodes and make every now and then cameos. As for him being Kon El, He doesn't have to be Kon El, he can just be super Boy, and not have any alter Ego. Think about it, how many people call robin Dick Grayson, and why doesn't he live at Wayne Manner (Because cartoons don't have to follow continuity) Much in the way that the Phoenix Saga on the X-Men animated series on fox, Jean Grey ended up surviving the phoenix exorcism, instead of commiting suicide. Ect ect, bottom line, none of the characters in the show have an "Origin" episode.

[Dylan McKay]

Point one- Teen titans never gave X-Men a run for it's money, least of all not in my opinion. You can walk down the street and ask anyone who you see "Do you know who the X-Men are? Have you ever heard of Wolverine?" and they would more than likely know exactly who your talking about. Before the cartoon, who knew who Starfire was? Only fans of the Titans. Now, since the cartoon, every kid and parent knows who they are, but I still don't see the comic picking up.


Unfair comparison. If you are going to use Starfire, use someone like Rogue as your X-Man. If you are going to use Wolverine, you have to use the most recognizable Titan, which would be Robin. Who is better known than Wolverine.

And by the same token, prior to the X-Men's cartoon, few people who weren't into comics knew anything about them, I sure didn't. So if you are going to say that Starfire isn't well known prior to the cartoon, you'll have to ask how well known Storm was prior to the cartoon.

And also, in the early eighties, The Titans and The X-Men were both the most consistant top sellers, I believe usually trading the top 2 spots. Legion of Superheroes was DC's only other top seller at the time.

[Jon Hancock]

Yeah. At it's height Tales of The Teen Titans was having cross overs with the X-titles and was easily selling as many, often keeping DC's heads above water.

You're quite wrong about this.

[Remnant]

I've never read the Teen Titans before, i was wondering if Teen Titans: Hunt, or The judas Contract were good jumping on points? Is Hunt available in trade form or not?

Remnant

[helios]

Unfair comparison. If you are going to use Starfire, use someone like Rogue as your X-Man. If you are going to use Wolverine, you have to use the most recognizable Titan, which would be Robin. Who is better known than Wolverine.

And by the same token, prior to the X-Men's cartoon, few people who weren't into comics knew anything about them, I sure didn't. So if you are going to say that Starfire isn't well known prior to the cartoon, you'll have to ask how well known Storm was prior to the cartoon.

And also, in the early eighties, The Titans and The X-Men were both the most consistant top sellers, I believe usually trading the top 2 spots. Legion of Superheroes was DC's only other top seller at the time.


The reason Robin is recognizable isn't through the titans, and you know that. He gained his popularity through Batman. Robin isn't anywhere nears as recognizable or as popular as wolverine, otherwise he would be a feature in the movie. It's not an unfair comparison at all. I picked two characters who are fundimental to their respective teams. I even took theliberty of asking my mother who doesn't even have a liking of comics if she knew who the Titans were, and she said "Yeah, they were the Greek rulers of Earth before they were overthrown by the gods) I went on to explain which titans I was refferring to, and she said "Oh you mean the characters on Cartoon network (Showing she had a general Idea of who I was talking about. I continued to ask her about the characters. She didn't even know the name of one characters, until I pointed out that one of them was Robin, to which she said "The same Robin from Batman?" When I asked her "Do you know who the X-Men are? Name one." She said "Yeah I know who the X-Men are, and the first person that she said was Wolverine." I didn't ask her because I wanted to be a smart @$$ I just wanted to see how valid your claim was about robin, because I honestly knew who wolverine was way before I know who robin was. Robin may have been more popular back in the day, with hannabarbarra cartoons, but he doesn't compare to wolverine comic bookwise. He might be able to give him a run for his money cartoon wise, but again that takes us back to my original post when I claimed that the cartoon does more respectably than the comic ever did.

Yeah. At it's height Tales of The Teen Titans was having cross overs with the X-titles and was easily selling as many, often keeping DC's heads above water.

You're quite wrong about this.

Not as wrong as you might like to think. Simple way to prove my point is to look at the success of the two titles. Do the teen titans have a movie out? No, and I doubt that they ever will. The most success I see them having is a made for tween-teens video game, but the cartoon again is the biggest success I have seem them have so far. Hardly the same affect as the X-Men. Hardly.....You stand corrected.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

even simpler way would be to look at the sales figures of both titles at the height of their popularity in the late 70s and early 80s. but since you're just being contrary at this point and not actually using any real sense of logic in your argument, i wouldn't really count on you to do that...

[Tan K.]

Anthony, there have been many Titans writers over the past four decades, including Devin Grayson (who started the adjectiveless Titans series off) and Dan Jurgens (who handled all of the second volume of Teen Titans) in recent years, going all the way back to Neal Adams pulling double duty as both scripter and artist in the early 70s. However, Marv Wolfman is commonly considered to be their best writer, and with good reason. He started with the team during the 70s, and then began a sixteen year run in 1980 that introduced many of the Titans mainstays of today, including Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg.

I would say that Wolfman is the Titans' Chris Claremont, in that his lengthy tenure allowed him to move the team forward gradually, spending a lot of time on interpersonal relationships. However, the difference is that when Wolfman left in 1996, he never came back. ;)

Deathstroke was originally quite the mercenary, with no qualms about his actions as long as he was being paid enough. In the early 90s, he moved more to that 'anti-hero' mold, occasionally even helping the team, and taking on goodhearted assignments like a one man A-Team. Coincidentally, that coincides with the launch of his solo series, and the shelves might not have been ready for a book about an irredeemable villain (look how poorly the Joker did with his 'regular' series).

- Raul

Thanks, Raul.

[Dylan McKay]

The reason Robin is recognizable isn't through the titans, and you know that. He gained his popularity through Batman. Robin isn't anywhere nears as recognizable or as popular as wolverine, otherwise he would be a feature in the movie. It's not an unfair comparison at all. I picked two characters who are fundimental to their respective teams. I even took theliberty of asking my mother who doesn't even have a liking of comics if she knew who the Titans were, and she said "Yeah, they were the Greek rulers of Earth before they were overthrown by the gods) I went on to explain which titans I was refferring to, and she said "Oh you mean the characters on Cartoon network (Showing she had a general Idea of who I was talking about. I continued to ask her about the characters. She didn't even know the name of one characters, until I pointed out that one of them was Robin, to which she said "The same Robin from Batman?" When I asked her "Do you know who the X-Men are? Name one." She said "Yeah I know who the X-Men are, and the first person that she said was Wolverine." I didn't ask her because I wanted to be a smart @$$ I just wanted to see how valid your claim was about robin, because I honestly knew who wolverine was way before I know who robin was. Robin may have been more popular back in the day, with hannabarbarra cartoons, but he doesn't compare to wolverine comic bookwise. He might be able to give him a run for his money cartoon wise, but again that takes us back to my original post when I claimed that the cartoon does more respectably than the comic ever did.


But that still doesn't answer that Wolverine compaired to Starfire is unfair. And no one is saying that the Titans have been as popular over the last ten years, but in the first half of the 80's the Titans were as popular and as well known as the X-Men.

[Matt Lazorwitz]

I've never read the Teen Titans before, i was wondering if Teen Titans: Hunt, or The judas Contract were good jumping on points? Is Hunt available in trade form or not?

Remnant

Sadly, Titans Hunt isn't available in trade, although the back issues are pretty easy to find. Judas Contract is easy to find, though. Judas is a good story and a decent place to get a feel for the Titans, but if you're looking for a good jumping on point for the current series, the first two arcs are both available in trade. You might want to start there.

[helios]

even simpler way would be to look at the sales figures of both titles at the height of their popularity in the late 70s and early 80s. but since you're just being contrary at this point and not actually using any real sense of logic in your argument, i wouldn't really count on you to do that...

I'm not just being contrary, and the reason I haven't looked up any sales figures is because I don't know where to look up any figures that are not in favor of iether or, so I use a source at my disposal. Thats not being contrary, and that is using sense of logic, weather or not you want to credit it. My initial argument was that the Cartoon is doing more successfully then the comic book is. At this point, the cartoon is doing better than the comic book had ever really done, because it reaches a child audience and anyone who know economics knows that children are the perfect sales pitch, because they make parents spend money. Comics are always marketed towards teens and fan boys in their mid mid-30's who still have the mentallity of a teen, and these people spend their own money and do so objectively. I.E. Which thing do they need more, a comic book or their rent paid. Kids don't spend objectively because they don't spend their own money. The cartoon being marketed towards kids is what makes it so genius. From that you can have not only rating, but make action figures, and video games.
You being insulting doesn't make me anyless correct.

[Jon Hancock]

correct. You're still just as wrong. the Titans DID keep DC afloat during the 80's. They WERE as successful and popular as the X-Men were. They also had crossovers with the X-men showing their importance and popularity.

And your mum may have an idea who wolverine is from your own x-collection. Mum's tend to know what their kids are reading.

The cartoon isn't a mark of success. The point you were arguing originally is that the Titans were never as big as the X-men. Yet you use only data from the last 5 years. The Titans were as big as the X-Men. Sales, publicity and longevity all bear to that.

[Dylan McKay]

According to Marv Wolfman (http://www.marvwolfman.com/TITANS%20TRIBUTE.html) at it's peak, New Teen Titans sold twice as many copies as DC's next best seller (Legion of Superheroes by Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen.) and four times as much as most other DC books, which would include Batman, Superman, Justice League, Flash, Green Lantern etc.

So I have trouble buying the argument that the cartoon is bigger than the Wolfman/Perez era. And remember, this is back at a time when comics weren't a niche market.

[helios]

correct. You're still just as wrong. the Titans DID keep DC afloat during the 80's. They WERE as successful and popular as the X-Men were. They also had crossovers with the X-men showing their importance and popularity.

And your mum may have an idea who wolverine is from your own x-collection. Mum's tend to know what their kids are reading.

The cartoon isn't a mark of success. The point you were arguing originally is that the Titans were never as big as the X-men. Yet you use only data from the last 5 years. The Titans were as big as the X-Men. Sales, publicity and longevity all bear to that.


The teen titans cartoon did better than the comic ever really did, actually the teen titans cartoon did better than the justice legue cartoon did. That would be cool if super boy were included in the cartoon line up. I could see him and robin getting into it all the time.


My very first comment....you should be more atentative. I actually wasn't the person to bring up the X-Men. The reason My mother knows about Wolverine is because everyone does, after all he does show up in credit card commercials, in movies, in cartoons. My mother doesn't live with me so she wouldn't know about him through my comicbook collection. I don't perticularly like wolverine, so even if she did know about my comic book collection, she wouldn't know about wolverine through it, because I absolutely hate seeing him on the cover of any comic book.

I didn't use datta from the last 5 years. It was actually from the last 18 years, but thats besides the point. The comic book had a limitted success during a time when the publisher were dedicating all their resources to keeping their "Winner" up and running (Winner being the titans) Crossovers don't really show importance. No one remember the Amalgams today except fan boys. Before the Amalgam, there were crossovers with spider-man and batman, and spider-man/super man, but no one seems to remember. that now. It doesn't show significance. If it did, Image would have become a heavy hitter publishing company, and instead they are still the "independant/Alternative" label.

According to Marv Wolfman at it's peak, New Teen Titans sold twice as many copies as DC's next best seller (Legion of Superheroes by Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen.) and four times as much as most other DC books, which would include Batman, Superman, Justice League, Flash, Green Lantern etc.

So I have trouble buying the argument that the cartoon is bigger than the Wolfman/Perez era. And remember, this is back at a time when comics weren't a niche market.

So they were the best of DC when DC was having problems with keeping up with the competition....during the pinacle of marvel success....Hardly constitutes a counter argument. To wrap this up, look at the market of Economics then V. now. Comics were sold for about a $1.25-2.00 Max. Toys are sold at a minimal of $7 now, and sell much faster than comic books, and have a yearly rize in sales, just because of hollidays alone. The cartoon is IN MY OPINION a much bigger success than the comic book evere was, and it's because they were marketed as a group of super powered kids, and taken away from the usual DC Justice League affectism, which the comic was so obviousely a teen spin off of.

[Anthony Lucynski]

You have some of the worst grasp of economics i've ever, ever seen.

You're so wrong it's not even funny. We're talking about success on a scale that X-Men had to STRUGGLE to keep up with, BEFORE the Direct Market was the norm for collecting.

I didn't use datta from the last 5 years. It was actually from the last 18 years

What data would THAT be, pray tell? Your own faulty logic? Even when you're TRYING to sound like you know what you're talking about, you fail miserably. And that's not me being rude to you, that's just a fact. You didn't even factor inflation and cost into your "final argument". You stated an "educated guess" as a fact when comparing gross sales of toys versus comics (I think you'll be suprised if you actually do some research on how much Toy Companies LOSE on a regular basis compared to publishers on dollar-per-unit ratio. There's a reason major toy companies furnish additional overhead for outlet POS's..they simply have NO CHOICE.)

I think, and this is me trying to say this as kindly as I possibly can, that you have a little bit of information and are trying to make it sound like you have a lot more than you really do.

I used to do the same thing. Usually when politics were involved. I'd take a little bit of information that I'd gather from new networks, spin my point of view into it, and pass it off as fact. This was around the time I first registered on the internet MB's, i'd say about 1998 or so. about 6, 7 years back.

It was when I ran into people that DID know what they were talking about that I realized how ignorant I really was. From that moment forward, instead of merely being an armchair politician, I followed everything in great detail, from local to national issues. Activism became a hobby of mine (seeing as how it couldn't be an actual profession, not producing any income :) ), etc, so forth. From educating myself with lectures and self teaching through various print and online sources, I bettered myself. I'm still far from an expert, but it's humbling when you realize just how much you do NOT know.

And i'm sorry for going on a tangent like that, but I've seen you post this argument, and i've seen several people try to explain why you are wrong. And you are not listening. That is why I make the comparison: I understand why you're doing it...i used to be YOU.

Think about it, take in what everybody is trying to illustrate to you, and relax.

It's just comics :)

Anthony L

[helios]

You have some of the worst grasp of economics i've ever, ever seen.

You're so wrong it's not even funny. We're talking about success on a scale that X-Men had to STRUGGLE to keep up with, BEFORE the Direct Market was the norm for collecting.



What data would THAT be, pray tell? Your own faulty logic? Even when you're TRYING to sound like you know what you're talking about, you fail miserably. And that's not me being rude to you, that's just a fact. You didn't even factor inflation and cost into your "final argument". You stated an "educated guess" as a fact when comparing gross sales of toys versus comics (I think you'll be suprised if you actually do some research on how much Toy Companies LOSE on a regular basis compared to publishers on dollar-per-unit ratio. There's a reason major toy companies furnish additional overhead for outlet POS's..they simply have NO CHOICE.)

I think, and this is me trying to say this as kindly as I possibly can, that you have a little bit of information and are trying to make it sound like you have a lot more than you really do.

I used to do the same thing. Usually when politics were involved. I'd take a little bit of information that I'd gather from new networks, spin my point of view into it, and pass it off as fact. This was around the time I first registered on the internet MB's, i'd say about 1998 or so. about 6, 7 years back.

It was when I ran into people that DID know what they were talking about that I realized how ignorant I really was. From that moment forward, instead of merely being an armchair politician, I followed everything in great detail, from local to national issues. Activism became a hobby of mine (seeing as how it couldn't be an actual profession, not producing any income :) ), etc, so forth. From educating myself with lectures and self teaching through various print and online sources, I bettered myself. I'm still far from an expert, but it's humbling when you realize just how much you do NOT know.

And i'm sorry for going on a tangent like that, but I've seen you post this argument, and i've seen several people try to explain why you are wrong. And you are not listening. That is why I make the comparison: .

Think about it, take in what everybody is trying to illustrate to you, and relax.

It's just comics :)

Anthony L

That was outrightly rude and insulting. You blantantly called me ignorant and tried to pass it off as an indirect insult. Well I don't need to be insulting. I don't have an unreallistic grasp on economics. I was able to stop working and buy a house at 19, through my understanding of the stock market. Biggest stock market increase in the past 2 years, was pepsi (They made a contract with asia to market orientally styled and flovored deritos, like fish flavor ect) Biggest stockmarket drop in the passed 5 years has been krispy cream doughnuts, due in large part to the Atkins diet craze. I understand economics quite efficiently. Comics are no where near their glory days, because it's a difficult niche market to economically capitalize on. I'm not stating my opinion as fact. You don't have to agree with me, but don't insult me.

I understand why you're doing it...i used to be YOU

Lol, in your life you have could never hope to be me, or have the slightest chance of achieving anything like me. Let alone have been me.

[Anthony Lucynski]

That was outrightly rude and insulting. You blantantly called me ignorant and tried to pass it off as an indirect insult.

If you consider being called out on your ignorance of a subject an insult, then, yeah, I guess I did. *shrugs*. I'm ignorant on the finer points of quantum physics, and therefore do not engage in conversations pertaining to the subject. I'd have a hard time justifying anybody calling me ignorant in quantum physics as an insult, but I guess that's just me. Some people have thin skin.

I was able to stop working and buy a house at 19,

Going on welfare and getting government housing assistance isn't something to be proud of (see, now THAT was insulting!)

through my understanding of the stock market.

Just like your understanding of the newstand marketshare war of the 80's between DC and Marvel? Please, you're killing me here. It's too easy. Dear god it's way too easy...

[Biggest stock market increase in the past 2 years, was pepsi (They made a contract with asia to market orientally styled and flovored deritos, like fish flavor ect) Biggest stockmarket drop in the passed 5 years has been krispy cream doughnuts, due in large part to the Atkins diet craze.

Whomever presented you with those "facts" needs an ass beating of the highest order. Lets convinently forget Google's IPO (or eBay's for that matter)

Lets just forget aboutg Enron while we're at it. No no, we'll pretend those two (and a virtual sea of others) never happened, and then, ONLY then, will the paragraph above even come close to being true.

Nice try, though (throwing two well known names out there, making a claim, not backing it up. Seeing a pattern here....)

I understand economics quite efficiently.

And George W. Bush handles occupations of foreign lands quite efficiently (enter dripping sarcasm)

Comics are no where near their glory days, because it's a difficult niche market to economically capitalize on. I'm not stating my opinion as fact. You don't have to agree with me, but don't insult me.

I dont only not have to agree with you, I DON'T. And neither do at least three other people in this thread that have tried to show you the error of your..achem.. "deductive reasoning".

Lol, in your life you have could never hope to be me, or have the slightest chance of achieving anything like me. Let alone have been me.

You're right. Seeing the evidence presented before me from a guy hiding behind an online identity, making outrageous claims that he can't back up, and quite frankly proving his IGNORANCE on multiple subjects much better than I ever could in any type of posting to the contrary, yeah. You're 100 percent correct. I could never achieve that level, even if I tried. I'd have to have a lobotomy to start with. *bows*

Mods (aka, my former teammates): Don't worry, i'm done playing with him. Warn me if you must, but you'll get no more from me, I promise. It's stops being fun when you realize the extant of the knowledge that is missing from the one you would debate..... (and before "i know everything and you don't, you could never be me" chips in another 2 cents, yes, my spelling is horrible. Terrible. It hurts even my eyes. Don't go there, I already did..)


Anthony L

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

first of all...yeah, let's cut out the baiting and outright insulting each other. i'm not naming names, i'm just saying stop it. debate and disagree all you like, but don't bait others and don't get your panties in a twist when there's no cause to be. if it goes on from this point, i'm handing out warning points (which is something i've not had to do in a long time, so don't break my streak!)

and helios...i think the biggest problem with your argument is that you're looking at two different mediums and trying to compare them on equal terms. of course a cartoon on a widely watched TV network that you can tune into for free is going to be more "successful" than a comic book that you have to plop down a couple of bucks for every month. but looking at it comparatively, the comic is still more successful because it ran for years as the chief competition of the best selling comic of all time (X-Men), because it has generations of fans and comics readers who know and love the characters...and because it was popular enough to inspire a successful cartoon series. you try to argue against this by saying that X-Men is and always has been more successful. you back this argument up by saying more people know about the X-Men. Really? more people know about a franchise that's spawned at least two animated series and a pair of blockbuster movies? That has NOTHING to do with their exposure to the comics. so it's a faulty analogy. and using anecdotal evidence on what your mom does and does not know isn't the most sound basis for an argument either.

so, basically? all we're saying is that in their relative contexts, Teen Titans has been more successful as a comic than as a cartoon...not that the book itself is currently more successful than the show. and that there wouldn't even BE a show if the comic had not been so successful and popular. these are FACTS, not something we asked our mothers about.

[helios]

If you consider being called out on your ignorance of a subject an insult, then, yeah, I guess I did. *shrugs*. I'm ignorant on the finer points of quantum physics, and therefore do not engage in conversations pertaining to the subject. I'd have a hard time justifying anybody calling me ignorant in quantum physics as an insult, but I guess that's just me. Some people have thin skin.



Going on welfare and getting government housing assistance isn't something to be proud of (see, now THAT was insulting!)



Just like your understanding of the newstand marketshare war of the 80's between DC and Marvel? Please, you're killing me here. It's too easy. Dear god it's way too easy...



Whomever presented you with those "facts" needs an ass beating of the highest order. Lets convinently forget Google's IPO (or eBay's for that matter)

Lets just forget aboutg Enron while we're at it. No no, we'll pretend those two (and a virtual sea of others) never happened, and then, ONLY then, will the paragraph above even come close to being true.

Nice try, though (throwing two well known names out there, making a claim, not backing it up. Seeing a pattern here....)



And George W. Bush handles occupations of foreign lands quite efficiently (enter dripping sarcasm)



I dont only not have to agree with you, I DON'T. And neither do at least three other people in this thread that have tried to show you the error of your..achem.. "deductive reasoning".



You're right. Seeing the evidence presented before me from a guy hiding behind an online identity, making outrageous claims that he can't back up, and quite frankly proving his IGNORANCE on multiple subjects much better than I ever could in any type of posting to the contrary, yeah. You're 100 percent correct. I could never achieve that level, even if I tried. I'd have to have a lobotomy to start with. *bows*

Mods (aka, my former teammates): Don't worry, i'm done playing with him. Warn me if you must, but you'll get no more from me, I promise. It's stops being fun when you realize the extant of the knowledge that is missing from the one you would debate..... (and before "i know everything and you don't, you could never be me" chips in another 2 cents, yes, my spelling is horrible. Terrible. It hurts even my eyes. Don't go there, I already did..)


Anthony L

Unlike you I don't have to result to name calling. I in my understanding of the stock market I said the two largest extreme's in fluctuations, not the only ones that happened all together. If you understood governemtn assistance, you would know that there is a waiting list based on priority and a Single mid 20's male falls lowest on that waiting list, so even if I had applied for something like government assistance, i wouldn't have it. I haven't commented on your spelling, because it's honestly not that serius to me. I don't have to point out your ignorance to prove the level of intellect that I have. Not my nature.

first of all...yeah, let's cut out the baiting and outright insulting each other. i'm not naming names, i'm just saying stop it. debate and disagree all you like, but don't bait others and don't get your panties in a twist when there's no cause to be. if it goes on from this point, i'm handing out warning points (which is something i've not had to do in a long time, so don't break my streak!)

and helios...i think the biggest problem with your argument is that you're looking at two different mediums and trying to compare them on equal terms. of course a cartoon on a widely watched TV network that you can tune into for free is going to be more "successful" than a comic book that you have to plop down a couple of bucks for every month. but looking at it comparatively, the comic is still more successful because it ran for years as the chief competition of the best selling comic of all time (X-Men), because it has generations of fans and comics readers who know and love the characters...and because it was popular enough to inspire a successful cartoon series. you try to argue against this by saying that X-Men is and always has been more successful. you back this argument up by saying more people know about the X-Men. Really? more people know about a franchise that's spawned at least two animated series and a pair of blockbuster movies? That has NOTHING to do with their exposure to the comics. so it's a faulty analogy. and using anecdotal evidence on what your mom does and does not know isn't the most sound basis for an argument either.

so, basically? all we're saying is that in their relative contexts, Teen Titans has been more successful as a comic than as a cartoon...not that the book itself is currently more successful than the show. and that there wouldn't even BE a show if the comic had not been so successful and popular. these are FACTS, not something we asked our mothers about.

The reason I used my mother as a source was because she is someone who has virtually no interest in comics, but still has the propper level of exposure to the characters to form a seasoned opinion. You make a valid point in saying that the cartoon would have never existed without the comic. Duh! What I am saying is that the sheer nature of the cartoon in it's own respect makes it more of a short term success. (It has made it's investor very wealthy over a much shorter period of time) That was my initial argument, and remains my point.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

and my continued point is that 1) comparing a niche market like comic books to a universally accessible medium like TV is fallacious at best, 2) the success of the cartoon is a reflection on the success and popularity of the comic and 3) your mother is not a Gallup Poll.

carry on...

[helios]

and my continued point is that 1) comparing a niche market like comic books to a universally accessible medium like TV is fallacious at best, 2) the success of the cartoon is a reflection on the success and popularity of the comic and 3) your mother is not a Gallup Poll.

carry on...

Rebuttle 1: The access of television is exactly what makes it more marketable than the niche market of comicbook publishing
Rebuttle 2: I never said that the cartoon wasn't a reflection of the comic book success, only that the cartoon has a completely different feel than the comic did. There really kids in the cartoon, not just rogue sidekicks/spin off character
Rebuttle 3: If that is your point, then source it, and show me a website where I can look up polls.

Instead of repremanding me for not knowing the places to check out polls. If I go to the Marvel website of course they will have polls that say X-Men is more popular and if I go to the DC website, it will undoubtedly say the same thing. The inacurate thing about polls is that it only counts the people who vote, when there is a whole world of people who know about one comic or the other, and simply don't care iether way, which means theymost likely won't put the effort forword to vote.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Rebuttle 1: The access of television is exactly what makes it more marketable than the niche market of comicbook publishing

which pretty much proves my point that attempting to compare the two on the same terms is ridiculous. it's like trying to compare the sales figures of Adventures of Superman to the ratings on an episode of Smallville.


Rebuttle 2: I never said that the cartoon wasn't a reflection of the comic book success, only that the cartoon has a completely different feel than the comic did. There really kids in the cartoon, not just rogue sidekicks/spin off character

yes, the cartoon has a completely different feel. because it's a screwball anime that uses the conventions of that genre as part of the storytelling language. personally, i think it's overdone and a bit silly at times and it hurts the story because it's far too distracting...but apparently kids need to see a large sweat drop off to the side of a character's head to know that they're upset about something, so whatever.

and how are they any more or less "real" kids in the cartoon than in the comic? because they don't address Batman when discussing Robin? or Doom Patrol in Beast Boy scenes? it's the same characters as the Wolfman/Perez line up! so how are they any more or less kids? any better or worse? they're the same characters!


Rebuttle 3: If that is your point, then source it, and show me a website where I can look up polls.

you...need me to source the fact that your mom isn't a Gallup Poll? :?


Instead of repremanding me for not knowing the places to check out polls. If I go to the Marvel website of course they will have polls that say X-Men is more popular and if I go to the DC website, it will undoubtedly say the same thing. The inacurate thing about polls is that it only counts the people who vote, when there is a whole world of people who know about one comic or the other, and simply don't care iether way, which means theymost likely won't put the effort forword to vote.

instead of putting words in my mouth, why don't you actually take my comments in their actual context? i never told you to go check out polls or look at the publisher's websites. but you're trying to prove points based solely on personal experience and what your mom thinks. which doesn't really hold up to the sales figures and the actual historical facts. you're free to believe what you like...but when you choose to express it in a public forum, then anyone is free to disagree with you. and when there are a number of them presenting more valid arguments actually based in evidence and facts rather than just personal opinion and questions they've asked their mother...you MIGHT want to consider the fact that you could be wrong.

[raul grau]

helios, I'm sure, at this point, you feel like everyone is ganging up on you. The problem, as I see it, is that you are attempting to disprove a statement, but are using evidence that is irrelevant to the topic at hand, and that is derailing the discussion.

The statement was that New Teen Titans rivaled Uncanny X-Men in sales during the early to mid-80s. That is something that I and others know to be true, since we saw it happening at the time, but are unable to prove at the moment, as the necessary sales info is not readily available. Therefore, without available proof, you can call it an opinion, and try to argue the point.

You have stated that more people know who the X-Men are today (which is logical, given that they have had two feature films). You have stated that more people know who Wolverine is than Robin (which is actually arguable, given the several television series and three feature films which starred Robin, along with the phone vote that drew national attention). You stated that your mother doesn't know who the Titans are. Lastly, you have said that the cartoon has done better than the comic ever has (which is a hard comparison to make, given the inherent differences in the formats, but it can be said that more people watch the cartoon than read the book).

However, none of your points, whether they are facts or opinions, go back to the original argument. You said 'Teen titans never gave X-Men a run for it's money', but then cited irrelevant points, and that is what is riling people up.

- Raul

[helios]

which pretty much proves my point that attempting to compare the two on the same terms is ridiculous. it's like trying to compare the sales figures of Adventures of Superman to the ratings on an episode of Smallville.



yes, the cartoon has a completely different feel. because it's a screwball anime that uses the conventions of that genre as part of the storytelling language. personally, i think it's overdone and a bit silly at times and it hurts the story because it's far too distracting...but apparently kids need to see a large sweat drop off to the side of a character's head to know that they're upset about something, so whatever.

and how are they any more or less "real" kids in the cartoon than in the comic? because they don't address Batman when discussing Robin? or Doom Patrol in Beast Boy scenes? it's the same characters as the Wolfman/Perez line up! so how are they any more or less kids? any better or worse? they're the same characters!



you...need me to source the fact that your mom isn't a Gallup Poll? :?



instead of putting words in my mouth, why don't you actually take my comments in their actual context? i never told you to go check out polls or look at the publisher's websites. but you're trying to prove points based solely on personal experience and what your mom thinks. which doesn't really hold up to the sales figures and the actual historical facts. you're free to believe what you like...but when you choose to express it in a public forum, then anyone is free to disagree with you. and when there are a number of them presenting more valid arguments actually based in evidence and facts rather than just personal opinion and questions they've asked their mother...you MIGHT want to consider the fact that you could be wrong.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I never said my mother was a poll.....I said that it was a relevant resource since she had exposure to comic books on a general stand point, with out true interest. The fact that it's my mother is irrelevent. It could have been anyone who knows about comics and doesn't show any real interest in them. That could be anyone, any of my friends know about comics through me, and a majority of them don't really have an interest in comic books. The point is that through Exposure is where general people would know about the character, not over just over excitable fanboys who know characters through and through, but general people as well. The reason I say that they are actually real kids more so in the cartoon is because it is marketed to kids, and so the dialogue is changed, feel of the environment is changed. Yes it's screw ball, and is does better than any other DC cartoon out right now (Justice League for example) because they are not made so clinical.

helios, I'm sure, at this point, you feel like everyone is ganging up on you. The problem, as I see it, is that you are attempting to disprove a statement, but are using evidence that is irrelevant to the topic at hand, and that is derailing the discussion.

The statement was that New Teen Titans rivaled Uncanny X-Men in sales during the early to mid-80s. That is something that I and others know to be true, since we saw it happening at the time, but are unable to prove at the moment, as the necessary sales info is not readily available. Therefore, without available proof, you can call it an opinion, and try to argue the point.

You have stated that more people know who the X-Men are today (which is logical, given that they have had two feature films). You have stated that more people know who Wolverine is than Robin (which is actually arguable, given the several television series and three feature films which starred Robin, along with the phone vote that drew national attention). You stated that your mother doesn't know who the Titans are. Lastly, you have said that the cartoon has done better than the comic ever has (which is a hard comparison to make, given the inherent differences in the formats, but it can be said that more people watch the cartoon than read the book).

However, none of your points, whether they are facts or opinions, go back to the original argument. You said 'Teen titans never gave X-Men a run for it's money', but then cited irrelevant points, and that is what is riling people up.

- Raul
Then let them be rilled...I just get more post by justifying what I said. I never said that Robin wasn't as popular as wolverine. I siad that Wolverine was better known than Star fire and someone else pointed out that it was an unfair comparison because Robin is actually the most popular character from the Titans, to which I said that it was not the Titans which made Robin so well and widely known but it was the batman franchise that made Robin so popular.My points are not invallid, and ithey are, then the points preseanted in rebuttle are equally invallid. I haven't said anything stated as fact. I am sourcing information at my disposal. In the 80's Marvel became the power house publishing company, just as DC was running into trouble. If Teen Titans was a rival to the X-Men, then it would still be considered competition now, because the X-Men rage is still going (That you can say is my opinion)

And the X-Men agrgument was not my original argument. My original argument was that the Titans Cartoon has done more successfully than the comic ever did. The reason being that it reaches so many more people and is better marketed towards a flood market (Children) V. the comic book which is marketed towards a Niche market, which at this point shrinks yearly (Teenagers and mid 30's fanboys) as teens show more and more interest in video games, another flood market.
As far as me feeling like everyone is ganging up on me, honestly you can only post one thing at a time, so even if 5 people do it, I can still make my point and validate it.

[Luke Heller]

Is there ANY way this Thread can become a little more civil? Please...?

:wall:

[helios]

I guess civility is relative, because with the exception of the one poster being insulting towards me, I feel like things have been civil. Argumentative, and debate worthy, but not uncivil

[Jon Hancock]

So I was wondering. Why are the Wolfman and Johns stories so much more popular? Teams or writing? Personally I never cared for Arsenal's or Atom's Titans and think that's why I can't think of any memorable stories. That's not to say they weren't written well though.

Hmmm... a quandry indeed. Any thoughts?

[yv1971]

While there were elements of The Post Zero Hour (Arsenal's) team as well as Jurgens team that were quite enjoyable I think they were both quite a major change in tone and cast from what had gone before.
I think that the success of Wolfman and Johns's run is a good artistic team that has been quite consistent. Wolfman's best issues were with Perez who IIRC contributed tremendously to characterisation and plot in addition to visuals. To a certain extent Wolfman lost the plot without Perez - there were some great arcs with Garcia Lopez and Barretto. Titans Hunt was exciting I thought despite the mediocre art by Grummett and co. Things picked up a tad when Jiminez debuted - then things got real bad (Jaaska was awful - killed it for me).
As far as Titans was concerned - I liked many of Devin Grayson's ideas (wonderful characterisation) but lacking in dramatic tension. Jay Faerber lost the plot totally.

As a Donna Troy and Raven fan my favourite arcs involved these two - Who is Donna Troy (#38) and the wedding (#50 ) both of the first volume. And the trigon arc of Vol.2 as well as the Titans of Myth / Lilith arc that followed (pencilled by Garcia-Lopez).

I am only just getting back into the Titans just in time for Donna's return.

Regarding Titans and the X-Men - there is no doubt that they were once on par. I think that the Titans suffered from editorial blunders - inconsistent art; too many fill-ins (art and story); a deteriorisation of characterisation and generally not enough support frm DC in the late 80's (at least not the way Marvel seems to have supported the X-franchise).

[Dylan McKay]

So I was wondering. Why are the Wolfman and Johns stories so much more popular? Teams or writing? Personally I never cared for Arsenal's or Atom's Titans and think that's why I can't think of any memorable stories. That's not to say they weren't written well though.

Hmmm... a quandry indeed. Any thoughts?

Because many stories in between were insanely lame. Although I incluide things like Titans Hunt there...

[Al Harahap]

So I was wondering. Why are the Wolfman and Johns stories so much more popular? Teams or writing? Personally I never cared for Arsenal's or Atom's Titans and think that's why I can't think of any memorable stories. That's not to say they weren't written well though.

Hmmm... a quandry indeed. Any thoughts?

A bit of everything. I think both runs are written exceptionally well.

In Wolfman's case, the team didn't comprise of popular characters, but their chemistry just clicked right from the get-go. It's just like any other team, where some member lineups suck arse, while other lineups are golden. And they also benefitted from a superstar artist in George Perez

In Johns' case, the team is comprised of characters with high recognisability factor, and most of whom have held their own solo series at one time or another. The hit animated series doesn't hurt either.

[Anthony Lucynski]

I in my understanding of the stock market I said the two largest extreme's in fluctuations, not the only ones that happened all together.

Then your understanding of the Stock Market is flawed, at best, because those are nowhere near the biggest fluctuations of the last two years. (A little background since you don't know me: I was a financial planner for 3 years before retiring into different sectors. I've turned down Eric Moreels offer to be ComiX-Fan's business corrospondant 3 times over the last five years. I use my real name, and have never used a screen-name on this site. Not trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong", just showing you a little bit of the leverage I have over somebody like you who doesn't use their real name, can't prove anything, and has demonstrated a total lack of understanding in both the principle argument and the secondary examples you tried using in your rebuttles)

If you understood governemtn assistance, you would know that there is a waiting list based on priority and a Single mid 20's male falls lowest on that waiting list, so even if I had applied for something like government assistance, i wouldn't have it. I haven't commented on your spelling, because it's honestly not that serius to me[./quote]

Having worked in government and not-for-profit organizations the better part of the last four years of my life, I think I DO know just a tad about it. But your failure to pick up on the bad joke to illustrate the point of weather or not I was being rude is understandable. This is a message board, and context and meaning are sometimes lost in translation.

[quote]I don't have to point out your ignorance to prove the level of intellect that I have. Not my nature.

I wouldn't dream of it. That would be akin to you saying how much I suck at Football just to justify your own gridiron superiority...and then not doing anything else.

What I DO expect in a civilized conversation, however (and I apologize for trainwrecking it eariler, I couldn't resist. Some habits die hard) is for the other party (s) to have an informed opinion, and to be armed with some facts.

And you don't have any. Not in Teen Titans, not in stockmarket debates, whatever. That's not an opinion of MINE, mind you, that's a fact. I know you're not getting that right now. You think you're right, and you're justifying the hell out of why you think you're right. But you're wrong. And you know, it takes a big man to realize when he's wrong, and just admit it. I was wrong to pick on you earlier. Again, old habit that is slowly going away with age and maturity (because lets face it, one doesn't automatically translate into the other).

But you KNOW you didn't make millions in the stockmarket. YOU know because I KNOW because I did that for a living for years, and called you out on it. Now, the Teen Titans argument, that's becoming more opinion based than anything, and the facts have already been laid out on the table for you to review.

Sorry for the delay in the response, i recently purchased a property and have been busy overseeing the renovations. I know it's a belated response, but I didn't want you to think I was dismissing you. You took the time to respond, I can at least show you the same courtesy.

Anthony L

[Anthony Lucynski]

..and if I had just looked at your profile and seen that you were banned and would NOT get a chance to read this, I would of save myself five minutes at the end of my lunch break.

Sigh.

Ah well, good luck to you in the future.

On a Teen Titans related note, I've started picking up all the back issues I can find based solely on this article. Well done, ComiX-Fan staff (i'm not paying 80 bucks for a full Teen Titans (current volume) run on eBay, though I'll stick to the trades....)

Anthony L