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raul grau

Oct 25, 2005, 04:30 am

<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/comixfanpresents.gif" align=left border=0 hspace=10 alt="Comixfan Presents logo">The Top Ten Anti-Heroes

By: Tom Connolley, Raul Grau, Alex Groff, Jon Hancock, Stephanie Kay, Seth Kim, Matt Lazorwitz, Jordan T. Maxwell, Joel Phillips, Omar A. Safi
Editor: Raul Grau, with assistance from Jordan T. Maxwell

In literature, an anti-hero is defined as a protagonist lacking in the physical or mental attributes bestowed upon most major characters of the novel genre... of course, every comic book character created after Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive underdog, so that guideline is lacking. Popular culture has branded a new breed of anti-hero... those characters who perform heroic acts, but do so with less-than-heroic motivations, or questionable means, or total disregard for the little voice inside our heads that tells us not to repeatedly shoot litterbugs. Some straddle the line between good and evil, some ignore heroic conventions, and then there are those who require a cash deposit before saving the world.

Anti-Heroes are not new to the industry, dating back to the day Sub-Mariner first stepped from the ocean, and saved the lives of some worthless air breathers, before launching into a show of massive arrogance. From the Savage Hulk to the Duck named Howard, from the disillusioned Watchmen to the Beboping Cowboys, Anti-Heroes have ignored heroic standards to the point of becoming the heroic standards... but with their numbers multiplying rapidly, how do you select the best? The staff of Comixfan were willing to tarnish their souls, wallowing in darkness and lapsed morals to narrow the field. Here you have the ten Anti-Heroes who are most willing to fight the good fight, without ever asking what Superman would do.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/Dream.gif" align=left hspace=10 alt="Morpheus"></a>#10 Morpheus (Sandman)

First Appearance: Sandman (v2) #1 (DC)
Created by: Neil Gaiman and Sam Kieth

There is a common misconception, but antiheroes aren't always about ultra-violence. Forget Jesse Custer and Judge Dredd for a minute. The first antiheroes were actually weak, uncertain characters-- written by people who had been shellshocked into submission by World War I-- people broken in spirit, and tired of violence. More than any other character in comics, Morpheus fits this trope. Dream saw himself as the ruler of his realm: a creator of dreams and nightmares, a deus ex machina to mediate events, not a part of the story. Yet, from his first issue to his last, Magic, obligations, and even guilt drew him into situations that he had desperately hoped to avoid. With almost unlimited power at his command, Dream found his greatest enemy to be himself-- his hesitation, his need for order and justice, his fear of change. Even his end was, as his sister pointed out, of his own design. One often wonders how a storyteller would act if forced into his own stories. With Morpheus, we see the answer: a perfect antihero.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/Marv1.gif" align=left hspace=10 alt="Marv"></a>#9 Marv

First Appearance: Dark Horse Presents #51 (Dark Horse)
Created by: Frank Miller

Marv is a character who guys can root for and even sympathize with. He wallows in his own self-pity, since he knows that he is none too bright or handsome. However, this doesn’t affect his attitude towards women; he’s a real gentleman with a strong ethical code regarding how to treat a lady, like not fighting back when the girls of Old Town have him tied down. Unfortunately, he feels that his life is horrible because it lacks a purpose…until the woman of his dreams, Goldie, comes along. Suddenly, that’s all taken from him when someone murders her. He's determined to avenge her death, which is a nicely heroic motivation; although, when Marv says, “No reason to play it any way but my way,” it shows that he truly is one of the best anti-heroes in comics. Marv feels indebted to Goldie for her kindness towards him, and for "failing" to protect her. When trying to figure out the identity of Goldie’s murderer, Marv is relentless and merciless. Marv wants his victims to wish they were in Hell. It probably gets the worst when he dismembers Kevin and feeds him alive to a wolf. Furthermore, Marv is ideally suited for this list, because not only does he believe he is doing the right thing, he enjoys it with glee. Meanwhile, he knows fear and it affects him. He even gets emotional during the story. Marv is an all-around good guy, just not one of the “good guys”.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/Preachertn.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Jesse Custer"></a>#8 Jesse Custer

First Appearance: Preacher #1 (DC/Vertigo)
Created by: Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

Jesse Custer is a young Texan preacher who discovers that God has abandoned Heaven and his people. He decides to track the deity down and make him pay for his crimes. This is one of the strangest motives for a quest ever written, but he has good reason. He was taught by his father to always do the right thing and bring the bad guys to justice, no matter who they are. Thanks to his pride, Jesse has the worst temper in Texas. When he gets in a brawl, he tries to talk his way out of it, but the villain calls him a name, and Jesse beats him. Then there is Jesse’s use of the Word, which he utilizes for some horrifying things-- for example, telling a dozen ranch hands to “BURN!” Jesse fears nothing, and will do anything for his friends. When Cassidy was kidnapped, Jesse traveled all the way to France to rescue him. He always stands by his friends, but twice left Tulip behind because he was scared for her safety, even though he knew that she could take care of herself. Over the course of the series, we see him strong, weak, overjoyed, broken, and enlightened. A character with so many sides to his personality is rare. You will never find anyone nobler, and, at the same time, more violent. He’s ruthless, but still loving, loyal, and compassionate.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/19.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Spider Jerusalem"></a>#7 Spider Jerusalem

First Appearance: Transmetropolitan #1 (DC/Helix)
Created by: Warren Ellis and Darick Robertson

One of the most important qualities associated with the character of an anti-hero, from Rick Blaine to Wolverine, is cynicism... something that futuristic, gonzo journalist Spider Jerusalem has in spades. For Spider, there is no greater good or more righteous cause to crusade over. There's only the lying bastard du jour caught in the sights of his bowel disruptor. And who can blame him? His world is a hodgepodge of cultural superficiality, ruled by a frustrating mix of apathy and hedonism. Without a clear compass with regard to good and evil, right and wrong, Spider's only ideology lies in the power of the Truth. People may be scum, but they deserve to know the truth about the higher scum who are screwing them over. Those in power can manipulate, distort, cover up, and kill all they like, but the truth will find you out. Spider Jerusalem doesn't like you. He's as likely to beat you over the head with a chair leg as stand up for your rights. Yet with an almost righteous self-loathing, he will make sure you know what's really going on. As well as what's really pissing him off.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/Frank.jpg"align=left hspace=10 alt="Frank Castle"></a>#6 Frank Castle (Punisher)

First Appearance: Amazing Spider-Man #129 (Marvel)
Created by: Gerry Conway and Ross Andru

Frank Castle is the Punisher, but that's more than just a title. It's a way of life, and his motivation for waking up each morning… or evening, rather (Frank's too cool for 9:00 a.m. starts). Constantly "apprehending" criminals to atone for his own suffering, Frank's mission always appeared to be a perfect example of an anti-hero. Man's family is caught in crossfire, man proceeds to execute anyone related to the crime. But Frank couldn't stop there, and became a gun-toting vigilante full time. For many readers, Frank's name and symbol represent one of the most original and iconic anti-heroes in comics. But that status is far from the only reason why Frank deserves this spot. For years, he was little more than a guy who tried to do right by shooting those who did wrong, then came Ennis, and with him Frank's motivations and personality changed drastically. Stretching back to his time in Vietnam, Frank has a desperate need to see justice served and the oppressed liberated, overrun only by his dependency on violence and death. Frank's motivations always seemed clear and, in some part, sympathetic. More recently, he has become darker and further removed from the wronged husband and father. What makes Frank unique among anti-heroes is that he's still serving justice, but it's now a byproduct of his own need for death, violence, and bloody, bloody combat. Frank punishes, therefore he is.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/Erictn.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Eric"></a>#5 Eric (The Crow)

First Appearance: Caliber Presents… #1 (Caliber Press/Titan Books)
Created by: James O'Barr

Eric, the figure forever immortalised in The Crow graphic novel (as well as the Alex Proyas film adaptation starring Brandon Lee), was a creation first derived during a period of emotional upheaval for his author-artist James O'Barr. Left reeling from a terrible personal tragedy, O'Barr constructed Eric as a means of purging the immense hatred he felt at the time, a process which he described as 'incredibly traumatic'. At his core, Eric is a form of 'avenging angel'; his death-transcendence and emotional unraveling leads to understandable and immense instability. The consequential revenge-killing becomes meticulously ritualistic - the closer to the ‘truth’ he (and we) become, the more macabre and lyrical the violence must be. The poetic masterclass though is the Crow itself; the powerful emblem of numerous past civilisations and mythological-ideologies manifests itself into the famous 'visage'. And though the creature is clearly the symbolic 'guide', it progressively becomes a part of Eric himself, his alter-ego even. Rarely has there been a more poignant presentation of the potentially unhinged and desperate side of us all - Eric is the ultimate chthonic spirit for the casualties of rage, greed, and injustice. Though he does fittingly arrive at a point far greater - the longevity and survival of love.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/22.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Walter Kovacs"></a>#4 Walter Kovacs (Rorschach)

First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (DC)
Created by: Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons

The world, looked at from far away, is a series of strange shapes laid out in no particular pattern. Look at them and tell me what you see. Growing up, Walter Kovacs saw limitless ways for people to prey on one another, to create pain, suffering, and death… a blurry world fashioned in shades of gray. But for Rorschach there was only black and white. There is no devil that forces us to murder one another, no God to make us behave ourselves lest we feel his wrath. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and we are that which we choose to be. Thus Rorschach chose to be what a righteous world needed, but could never manufacture: a cleanser, something to wipe evil men from the world with the same ruthless efficiency that they themselves employed. With no order, no plan, the world could only be livable if the black and white remained unmixed, the evil unexcused and the good untainted. Rorschach held to that vision of the world – fought for it, killed for it, and eventually died for it, still trying to keep those colors from bleeding together. Rorschach represents what every one of us, somewhere deep inside, suspects is true about the world, but can never admit if we want to look at ourselves in the mirror. Try it sometime… and tell me what you see.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/morningstar.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Lucifer Morningstar"></a>#3 Lucifer Morningstar

First Appearance: Sandman (v2) #4 (DC)
Created by: Neil Gaiman and Sam Kieth

When he created his own Devil for Paradise Lost, John Milton wrote, “Tis better to reign in hell then to serve in heaven.” When Neil Gaiman created Lucifer, I’m pretty sure that this is the model he was looking at. Haughty, bordering on arrogant, and supremely confident, Lucifer Morningstar is not evil, but simply believes that his free will is above all, and that no one should have to bend knee to fate or God. After abandoning Hell, Lucifer found a way to create his own universe, his own creation, and now is doing his best to save the creation of his father, to insure the continued existence of his own. Lucifer does not act out of any great altruism, but simply because he believes that he knows best, and wishes to ensure his own continued existence, and the game that he has always played. Never afraid to betray someone who loves him to forward a plan, Lucifer might not be the devil you know, but he’s definitely no angel.

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<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top10antiheroes/V2.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="V"></a>#2 V

First Appearance: Warrior Magazine #1 (Quality Communications)
Created by: Alan Moore and David Lloyd

The King of the Twentieth Century. The Bogeyman. The Villain. The Black Sheep of the Family. The Man from Room V. Call him what you will. We call him V. In a world where a fascist government ruthlessly rules England, a single man rises against the powers that be, whispering words that have long been forgotten. Equality. Freedom. Vengeance. By murdering key figures and bombing central buildings, V methodically knocks over the pieces of the oppressive government one by one. Some see Codename V as a hero, yet are V's intentions truly noble? Is he a liberator, or simply a psychopathic murderer, bent on his own personal vendetta? After all, there exists only a paper-thin partition between true genius and the realms of madness, and the intricacies of V's agenda are as meticulous as they are esoteric. In the end, while the lines between revolutionist and terrorist may be blurred, there is no denying that V is unquestionably one of the most enigmatic and iconic literary characters ever.

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<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/headshots/dc/johnconstantine.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="John Constantine"></a>#1 John Constantine

First Appearance: Saga of the Swamp Thing #37 (DC)
Created by: Alan Moore, Rick Veitch, and John Totleben

John Constantine is the modern anti-hero. His family tree is rooted in evil, but John chose his own path, blazing the gates of Hell with a mix of self-preservation and bravado. We first met John as he worked to save the whole of existence, rather successfully thankfully... though you have to wonder if he would have bothered were there another existence nearby to reside in. He dolls out just enough information for his allies to prove useful, though rarely enough to keep them alive. Still, John is a man extremely loyal to his friends, going so far as to sacrifice one to save another. His actual powers are few, but he is never without the two most powerful weapons in his arsenal: his understanding of humans (and some non-humans) and his reputation. Those who know Constantine rightly fear him, and those who do not soon will. From demons to devils to doomsday cults, John has foiled them all... sometimes for vaguely noble reasons, usually for personal gain, but always because he knew that he could. The world is a safer place having John in it, but do not get too close, because the safety of Earth might just be dependent on you being condemned to Hell for all eternity.

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So there you have the Top Ten Anti-Heroes. Some fight their own private war, some are only at war with themselves, but all believe in what they do, so we believe in them too. Every great hero has his villain, but every great anti-hero has his moral quandary, and, for once, splash page fisticuffs take a backseat to internal monologues.

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Jesse Custer: Tom Connolley
John Constantine: Raul Grau
Morpheus: Alex Groff
Frank Castle: Jon Hancock
Eric: Stephanie Kay
V: Seth Kim
Lucifer Morningstar: Matt Lazorwitz
Spider Jerusalem: Jordan T. Maxwell
Walter Kovacs: Joel Phillips
Marv: Omar A. Safi
Contributors: Mitch Brown, Nick Costanzo, Ryan Day, Anthony Devlin, James Groves, Thaddeus Hettle, Anand Khatri, Alan Lynch, Magic Rabbit, T. Martin, Dylan McKay, Janne Pietikainen, Steve Pirrie, Greg Reeves, Tom Toner
Image Assistance: Zachary J. Morrison

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writers involved, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.

Radiate

Oct 25, 2005, 08:17 am

Love these top tens!Keep them coming although....I know,i know this guy DOES get too much attention but...Wolverine?Where is he on this list?!

RADIATE!

Alan Lynch

Oct 25, 2005, 08:20 am

Love these top tens!Keep them coming although....I know,i know this guy DOES get too much attention but...Wolverine?Where is he on this list?!

RADIATE!
I'm amazed this was up as long as it was without someone asking that :P

Radiate

Oct 25, 2005, 08:34 am

LMAO!Well Alan you can always depend on me voicing the views and opinions of the general comicbook populace;)

BUt i like these Top 10s.They're totally cool!

But going back to Wolverine.True,over the years his Anti-Hero status has gone down hill.But i love Roshach.Just love him.

RADIATE!

Kevin Sutton

Oct 25, 2005, 11:52 am

Love these top tens!Keep them coming although....I know,i know this guy DOES get too much attention but...Wolverine?Where is he on this list?!

RADIATE!

Yeah, I gotta admit; I think he deserved a spot on this list more than a lot of the characters who appeared here. Cliche as he may be, he's a huge part of the reason for those cliches. I'm certainly no Wolverine-booster... but really.

While the individual entries don't really seem wrong, nevertheless it still seems a weak list to me. I'm not sure what can justify the positioning of each anti-hero on the list except for the cumulative voter's particular like of them. Ex: What makes Constantine more of an anti-hero or an iconic anti-hero than V? Or Rorshach? I guess these are really just lists of favorites as opposed to anything that tries to be definitive, (as that's how the system is generally set up) but this time it's more noticeable. (7/10 were from Vertigo... jeeze...)

As for V entry.... do I have the wrong copy of V is for Vendetta? Or is everyone else just reading that old movie press release? I don't remember anything about Germany winning WW2; to the contrary, it was a nuclear war in the sixties where the timeline diverges.

Tan K.

Oct 25, 2005, 12:37 pm

Wolverine IMO is not an anti-hero. He is very close to the line, but the majority of his actions are not to kill (maim maybe) or to do harm or all of the other criteria that causes someone to fall into this category. He believes in goodness and all of that soft stuff. He is noble, but he sometimes falls to the dark side of decisions. Overall, he is not a anti-hero. Nice job leaving him off.

Lambi

Oct 25, 2005, 12:48 pm

I agree with most of it. Although I wouldve replaced Frank Castle with Wolverine. Otherwise, spot on!

Ricochet

Oct 25, 2005, 01:08 pm

What about Deadpool? The merc with a mouth has done is fair share of good deeds. He's even saved the world a couple of times. But then again Howard the Duck has also saved the world. But he's not as cool as Deadpool.

Filthy Mutie

Oct 25, 2005, 01:14 pm

Yeah, I gotta admit; I think he deserved a spot on this list more than a lot of the characters who appeared here. Cliche as he may be, he's a huge part of the reason for those cliches. I'm certainly no Wolverine-booster... but really.

While the individual entries don't really seem wrong, nevertheless it still seems a weak list to me. I'm not sure what can justify the positioning of each anti-hero on the list except for the cumulative voter's particular like of them. Ex: What makes Constantine more of an anti-hero or an iconic anti-hero than V? Or Rorshach? I guess these are really just lists of favorites as opposed to anything that tries to be definitive, (as that's how the system is generally set up) but this time it's more noticeable. (7/10 were from Vertigo... jeeze...)

As for V entry.... do I have the wrong copy of V is for Vendetta? Or is everyone else just reading that old movie press release? I don't remember anything about Germany winning WW2; to the contrary, it was a nuclear war in the sixties where the timeline diverges.

I second everything said here. I was surprised Punisher showed up, even if it was at a mere #6.

Wolverine IMO is not an anti-hero. He is very close to the line, but the majority of his actions are not to kill (maim maybe) or to do harm or all of the other criteria that causes someone to fall into this category. He believes in goodness and all of that soft stuff. He is noble, but he sometimes falls to the dark side of decisions. Overall, he is not a anti-hero. Nice job leaving him off.

I think you would have to specify what criteria that may be. If you're going by killing: Wolverine has killed thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, and you don't even have to take Millar's recent run on the title into account (where he kills thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people). He was made into a "killing machine" by humans, yet fights to protect them. He loses pretty much every person whom he bonds with, especially romantically, and then seeks vengeance (usually in the form of killing). He almost always wants to take a direct and violent path to achieve an end, as seen as recently as House of M or even Astonishing X-Men. Geeze, look at when he first joined the X-Men (where he was always violent and butting heads with EVERYONE) and his solo series during the 80s and very, very early 90s. He does have his "soft, wise" moments, but those aren't as common as you might think and are often totally over-ruled by some snarling, some snikting, and some kind of diving pose.

I'm not by any stretch a giant Wolverine fan, but like Kevin pointed out, he really is a big reason why these others ever happened.

Jos1988

Oct 25, 2005, 01:39 pm

i have to agree with the V thing - there is no mention of Germany winning WW2 - it was a nuclear war that led to a fascist government being imposed on Britain, get your facts straight or reread (cos im assuming you've read) V for Vendetta.

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 25, 2005, 02:25 pm

sorry for the factual faux pas on V...that slipped past more than a few radars (at least we managed to catch and correct the fact that his first appearance was not, in fact, V for Vendetta #1...partial credit?). it's been corrected to more accurately reflect the events of the story.

as for Wolverine...and for that matter a character like Batman...it was decided with certain characters that their anti-hero status had long since been abandoned in favor of a more "cuddly" version of the character (regardless of their body count or the number of bones they break or how often they lurk in the shadows). with that dilution of their character, they couldn't exactly be defined purely as anti-heroes anymore. it's no commentary on their worth as a character. merely their status within the parameters of this list.

please don't hurt us. :D

brownfirex

Oct 25, 2005, 02:55 pm

Im surprised Wolverine is not included. Bu that would ruin hsi marketing image. :crazy:

Anthony Devlin

Oct 25, 2005, 03:41 pm

Robin Lewis

Oct 25, 2005, 03:47 pm

I reckon it's a good list, barring Morpheus, who simply doesn't fit.

MumblemumbleJudgeDreddmumblemumbletravestyofalistwithoutJoemumblemumble.

We thrashed out Judge Dredd's anti-hero status in the staff room, with most people stating that he isn't actually an anti-hero. I disagreed, but was outvoted. This democracy thing isn't really working out, kids.

Anthony Devlin

Oct 25, 2005, 04:21 pm

MumblemumbleJudgeDreddmumblemumbletravestyofalistwithoutJoemumblemumble.

:rofl:

This democracy thing isn't really working out, kids.

I agree :#.... Of course I’m totally biased I didn’t manage to get Jenny Sparks over the last hurdle and into the list :~( :P

Phil Hunn

Oct 25, 2005, 04:28 pm

This democracy thing isn't really working out, kids.

Which is the central tenet upon which Mega-City One is based :)

russbrett77

Oct 25, 2005, 06:28 pm

What? No Fantomex?!

(yes, I'm joking)

Great list.

Will Carper

Oct 25, 2005, 06:59 pm

Using the characters provided my list would be:

1.) Frank Castle
2.) Walter Kovacs
3.) Marv
4.) John Constantine
5.) Jesse Custer
6.) Eric
7.) Spider Jerusalem
8.) V
9.) Lucifer Morningstar
10.) Morpheus

I think Wolverine, The Midnighter, King Mob, Agent 355, and Holden Carver should have been included, or at least mentioned. I mean, who on that list is more badass than Holden?

HopeThisNamesNotTaken

Oct 25, 2005, 07:25 pm

Your piece on Rorschach was really deep, man. Sounds like someone used The Watchmen for his/her Psych term paper.

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 25, 2005, 08:01 pm

yeah, retrospectively, i regret not nominating King Mob. i'm a poor, poor excuse for an Invisibles fan. :sigh:

and yes, i disagreed with Morpheus' inclusion as well. but oh well.

MrGreen

Oct 25, 2005, 08:20 pm

This is a great list and though I have not necessarily heard of all of these characters or read their material, I generally agree with it. And thank you for not putting Batman on the list since he gets way too much attention for this kind of thing. I would have added the whole cast of Watchmen not only Rorschach as one of the top ten. The Hulk would have been another great addition considering he is the original anti-hero. Wolverine should have been there too but everyone already told you that.

Ryan Day

Oct 25, 2005, 09:43 pm

Loganbabe

Oct 25, 2005, 09:44 pm

Wolverine is the ultimate anti-hero. He was a character-model for guys like Marv and Rorschach and others like that. But I really didn´t expect to find him on that list, anyway. :rolleyes:

Ryan Day

Oct 25, 2005, 09:58 pm

Wolverine is the ultimate anti-hero. He was a character-model for guys like Marv and Rorschach and others like that.

Well, no. Not at all. Not even remotely close.

Rorschach is modelled on The Question, who first appeared in 1968 and pre-dates Wolverine by six years.

Frank Miller bypassed superheroes entirely and went with crime fiction and film noir for most of his Sin City inspirations - Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, Mickey Spillane.

In fact, I don't think you can count Wolverine as an influence on a single character on the list.

Martin Dudek

Oct 25, 2005, 10:17 pm

I thought it was a great list guys. Some weird surprises (I really don't consider Morpheus as an anti-hero, he simply is), some good surprises (Lucifer - I never would've thought of that one), and it was a fine read.

And its good to see Rev around again - you were missing when I left the staff.

Kevin Sutton

Oct 26, 2005, 12:53 am

Oh for goodness sake, what is it with Wolver’sodin’rine, if he had been in the list we'd have been criticised that the list was toooo predictable :rolleyes:.. You know there’s a big wide world of comics out there that wolverine doesn’t happen to be in :omg:… yes, I know its hard to believe, but some comics actually seem to manage without him being in it…….

Yeah... hard though it may be to believe, as a ComiXfan reviewer I read plenty of stuff that doesn't include Wolverine. In fact, the vast majority of stuff I read even before getting that position is stuff you could never find him in. Of course my reading habits have nothing to do with the justification for his absence from this list; fortunately my objections were mitigated by others who have actually tried to explain his absence as opposed to making ham-fisted attempts to devalue the opinions of others. Shame.

Further, don't tell me what I'd be complaining about would that this list had come up differently. You're selling me and my opinions short.

As for predictability; when dealing with top five/ten/100s, they tend not to be disadvantages. The popular will isn't always divorced from proper reasoning; and the very methodology (voting) of this list almost totally relies upon it.

Well you should have nominated him then shouldn’t you, Nominations were open to all staff, and your staff!. I don’t recall seeing anyone arguing in Wolverines corner then? Let alone vote!

Indeed maybe I could have! Of course, it wouldn't have had any effect one way or the other, so I'd still be in the same position criticizing the total will of the voters. Indeed, although most here have done a good job in explaining his absence, the total lack of support for such a predictable choice may have indicated a certain amount of groupthink, which reflects awkwardly on the procedure as opposed to the persons making up the poll.

Anyway, I don't really approve of the methodoloy of the lists anyway. Balloting provides no single justification or single arguement for the importance of each entry and their rankings, as you could get from a single person or a committee decision. No one is responsible to justify the choices and rankings before they've been set in stone by final count. (At which point someone else must try to do it) Instead you just get a more complex poll with a smaller sample size limited to staff. It doesn't reflect the popular will of this community nor does it attempt to make a definitive statement.

I don't like the process, so I don't feel justified in participating. Frankly I don't really have that kind of time either.

I generally like the lists, (I like the competing top 10s better generally) but that doesn't mean I can't find fault with the results or methods.

The problem with Wolverine is that he's pretty much a sissy.

He prances about in bright yellow spandex, apparently so he makes a good target, can get shot a lot, and show off his healing factor.

He's all, like, "I'm a loner", but he joins every team in the Marvel Universe.

His hair is totally lame.

One of his powers is a good sense of smell. Wow. He has one of the same powers as Krypto the Super Dog. That's just so cool.

Plus, he's frequently opposed to ninjas. Ninjas are cool. People who are against ninjas are clearly not.

:LOL:

Will Carper

Oct 26, 2005, 01:35 am

yeah, retrospectively, i regret not nominating King Mob. i'm a poor, poor excuse for an Invisibles fan. :sigh:

:depress:

:LOL:

Zach Kinkead

Oct 26, 2005, 02:36 am

No Hulk? No (pre-Countdown retcon crap) Max Lord? Madness!

Dylan McKay

Oct 26, 2005, 03:32 am

Yeah, Wolverine was deemed a hero and thus ineligable. And lets face it, back when Logan was an anti-hero, everyone hated him and wanted him dead...

Everyone has characters that they would have liked on this list. Agent Graves and Ogami Itto IMO belong on the list.

Alan Lynch

Oct 26, 2005, 05:09 am

The Hulk would have been another great addition considering he is the original anti-hero.
Hulk was pushed strongly. I'm one of the "no" votes, because I don't really thik Hulk has motivation enough to be considered a hero or a villain. He's just this big thing that wants left alone and hammers anyone or anything that goes for him. More often than not, Hulk is the victim.
Everyone has characters that they would have liked on this list. Agent Graves and Ogami Itto IMO belong on the list.
Damn right. My Kaneda-pushing was shameless! I'll weasel him into one of these things yet...

Robin Lewis

Oct 26, 2005, 06:04 am

Plus, he's frequently opposed to ninjas. Ninjas are cool. People who are against ninjas are clearly not.

I find your logic impressive, and your argument watertight.

Anthony Devlin

Oct 26, 2005, 06:12 am

Yeah... hard though it may be to believe, as a ComiXfan reviewer I read plenty of stuff that doesn't include Wolverine. In fact, the vast majority of stuff I read even before getting that position is stuff you could never find him in. Of course my reading habits have nothing to do with the justification for his absence from this list; fortunately my objections were mitigated by others who have actually tried to explain his absence as opposed to making ham-fisted attempts to devalue the opinions of others. Shame.

Owwwwww, I'll make any kind of comment i want thank you. And maybe you noticed that Jordan had already addressed the issue by the time i posted. So i was in fact letting off steam having a rant something i'm more than entitled to do, now is that such a crime?..... You know you could have simply done what i would have done and like most others who realised this had... Ignore it...

Further, don't tell me what I'd be complaining about would that this list had come up differently. You're selling me and my opinions short.

Firstly i didn't tell you anything so get over yourself, the first half of that post was a general rant and not directed at any one person.. So as for selling you and your points short i have no idea what you’re going on about... You will note the second part of my post, where i quoted you, now that was directed at you...

Phasmal

Oct 26, 2005, 10:31 am

Lessee, Morpheus doesn't actively try to change things (wasn't that what got him killed?) thus he doesn't have the hero part of the "anti-hero" thing fulfilled.

Custer, while the star of my favorite comic, is pretty much all hero, considering how crazy the world he's in is. Do right and wrong even come into play when God himself has skipped town?

Haven't read Transmet, the Crow, or Lucifer, but I'm pretty sure Lucifer is in the same vein as Morpheus- doesn't fulfill the hero part in the first place.

And finally, Constantine. Great character, but not an anti-hero. It seems like the people that put this together decided to define an anti-hero as someone who does the right thing for the wrong reasons. I think it is someone who does the wrong thing for the right reasons. They want to halp the world or others (hero) they just do it in a way that kinda negates their philanthropy (anti).

That's why the Punisher is #1 in my book. Was the concept of anti-hero ever used to define a comic book character before Frank? Not to my recollection. He does despicable acts, the same ones his enemies do, but he believes he doing the right thing. Perhaps questionable sanity should also be a requirement for the list...

Kevin Sutton

Oct 26, 2005, 10:36 am

Owwwwww, I'll make any kind of comment i want thank you. And maybe you noticed that Jordan had already addressed the issue by the time i posted. So i was in fact letting off steam having a rant something i'm more than entitled to do, now is that such a crime?..... You know you could have simply done what i would have done and like most others who realised this had... Ignore it...

It's more than a little hypocritical to complain about someone attacking you after you let off a little steam yourself.

Jordan (and others) had already responded, yes. If you didn't have anything to add beyond ridiculing people, maybe you shouldn't have responded to begin with.

Firstly i didn't tell you anything so get over yourself, the first half of that post was a general rant and not directed at any one person.. So as for selling you and your points short i have no idea what you’re going on about...

Yeah... of course only five people had criticized Wolverine's absence at that point, and one of them posted only that they agreed with me. So of course I should assume I'm not targetted by your general rant just because.

A general rant is directed indisciminantly, so yes, I am going to respond to your criticism, because I was of the same opinion you attacked. Insulting a group of people means you're insulting the whole group after all. Not just the people who won't respond.

Even had you specifically omitted me from your general rant; such an attack is still unwarranted. I don't see how Radiate or any of the other people deserved to have their opinions and reading habits rediculed by you.

I think this community is better served when posters take responsbility for the things they say and when they find better ways to let off steam than by indisciminantly throwing around insults.

Deadpool83

Oct 26, 2005, 10:43 am

Gentleman, as eloquent a piece of work as this article is, unfortunately its fundamentally flawed. Flawed in the sense that nearly every description of these characters reads like a DC comics press release. Infact, do you work for DC?

As much as the good old boys at DC/Vertigo like to tell us, John Constantine is not an Anti-Hero. Que the "Oh my Gods!". The guy fights the bloddy Devil for Gods sake, you dont get much more heroic than that. An anti-hero is someone whio could for all intents and purposes be a villain if it were not for their own twisted take on morality and 'justice'. John Constantine is always on the side of 'Good' and he's always facing off against someone whose behaviour and intentions are a lot worse than his. That definitively make him a class-A, 'one of the good guys', HERO.

In fact the only person on that list who is actually an anti-hero is nutty old Rorscarch! Now he is an anti-hero as he is a constant thorn in the side of the 'heroes' in Watchmen, and his perverse views on the worls are unquestionably tainted, as seen by his violent, uncompromising black and white 'wrong is not right' attitude. He is a character who for all reasons we should despise, but just cannot help ourselves from supporting. The same cannot be said about the Punisher, Spider-Jerusalem, Lucifer, Marv or indeed Mr. Constantine. Those guys are always the ones you're routing for when you read a story with them in it, no complications.

It seems like a few too many of us view a character on what we're told he is, rather than deciding for ourselves what he is.

Bottom line: Too much Marvel and DC fan-boyism makes Jack a very dull boy.

Ryan Day

Oct 26, 2005, 11:08 am

An anti-hero is someone whio could for all intents and purposes be a villain if it were not for their own twisted take on morality and 'justice'.

No. That's the popular comic book interpretation of anti-hero, but it's not the right one.

An anti-hero is simply a protagonist who lacks some or all of the qualities of the classical hero. Maybe that's because he's violent and psychotic like Rorscach, but it could also be because he's plagued by guilt and self-doubt - like Spider-Man.

Norton (http://www.wwnorton.com/college/english/litweb/glossary_a.htm) defines an anti-hero as "a leading character who is not, like a hero, perfect or even outstanding, but is rather ordinary and representative of the more or less average person." In a literary sense, you get examples like Willy Loman, Milton's Lucifer, and Yossarian. In comic books, this applies to just about every post-Stan Lee superhero out there, and quite a few before. Superman, Batman and Captain America were, at least as originally created, in the mold of the classical hero: They're pure, brave, confident, and heroic.

Stan Lee, on the other hand, made his superheroes more human. So Spidey is driven by guilt over Uncle Ben, the Fantastic Four bicker and squabble like a regular family. The original comics anti-hero is probably the Sub-Mariner, who was an arrogant tyrant who sometimes tried to take over the surface world and sometimes fought Nazis.

Constantine fights the Devil, sure. But in doing so he lies, cheats and generally cons his opponents. Lucifer operates on entirely his own moral compass: This is a being who has defied the will of God - in effect the first "free" being in creation - and has subsequently done everything since to advance his own goals. Sometimes he does things that could be considered "heroic", but it's never for any good greater than his own.

I considered the Hulk an anti-hero. Not just the Hulk, but Bruce Banner as well: Together they are a character who often either a) only looks for a cure for his condition or b) just wants to be left alone. Particular incarnations, such as Peter David's Mr. Fixit or Bruce Jones' "Man on the run", make this particularly clear.

Anthony Devlin

Oct 26, 2005, 11:21 am

It's more than a little hypocritical to complain about someone attacking you after you let off a little steam yourself.

Jordan (and others) had already responded, yes. If you didn't have anything to add beyond ridiculing people, maybe you shouldn't have responded to begin with.

... Oh I’m glad you mentioned hypocritical. Because from where i’m standing that sums you up.. You make remarks regarding Wolverines absence when you knew the process involved in deciding the list, a list that you could have contributed to.. If you felt so strongly about Wolverines inclusion i’m sure you could have even argued the validity of his inclusion. No you choose not too, instead you wait for the list to go up and start pulling your face.... This whole process was going on for weeks, you had more than enough opportunity to vote, nominate, and argue the point then. So it’s more than a little hypocritical to complain about someone attacking you after you chose not to partake in a process and then complain about the results.. Had you bothered to take part I would have taken your complaint slightly more serious.

Even had you specifically omitted me from your general rant; such an attack is still unwarranted. I don't see how Radiate or any of the other people deserved to have their opinions and reading habits rediculed by you.

I think this community is better served when posters take responsbility for the things they say and when they find better ways to let off steam than by indisciminantly throwing around insults.

What!!! Stop making this into something its not, you’re the one making the big deal here not me, you need to lighten up.. And I’d hardly call the post offensive and coming from a reviewer I would have thought you would be slightly thicker skinned than this, I clearly see not, so in future I’ll watch what I say on subjects that might upset you… As for making out I was insulting anyone, please, less of the drama. That wasn’t me insulting anyone, trust me.

Alan Lynch

Oct 26, 2005, 11:30 am

I think it is someone who does the wrong thing for the right reasons. They want to halp the world or others (hero) they just do it in a way that kinda negates their philanthropy (anti).
I'm open; for me an anti-hero can do "good" or "bad" things. I'm more concerned with their motives, or how they see things. Like I said earlier; I pushed for Kaneda to make the list. He does good and bad things, all for fundamentally the same reason - they'll benefit him (albeit sometimes in a roundabout way). I think the list is made up of similar characters: they're people who are just as capable of doing good or evil and often do both. Whether you agree with their reasoning is another matter.
Perhaps questionable sanity should also be a requirement for the list...
For a lot of anti-heroes it helps, yeah...
Gentleman, as eloquent a piece of work as this article is, unfortunately its fundamentally flawed. Flawed in the sense that nearly every description of these characters reads like a DC comics press release. Infact, do you work for DC?
That's a bit harsh. The shortlist contained a broad mix of characters, and these were the ones the voters preferred.

As much as the good old boys at DC/Vertigo like to tell us, John Constantine is not an Anti-Hero. Que the "Oh my Gods!". The guy fights the bloddy Devil for Gods sake, you dont get much more heroic than that.
Yeah, but it's his motivation and way of doing it that qualifies him. He's hardly an angel, is he?
The same cannot be said about the Punisher, Spider-Jerusalem, Lucifer, Marv or indeed Mr. Constantine. Those guys are always the ones you're routing for when you read a story with them in it, no complications.
A lot of that is down to how their presented IMO. Tell the same story from another POV and those guys could just as easily be villains. Similarly, Marv and Constantine have gone up against some pretty awful people. If you take the specs-wearing cannibal's side over Marv's I'd be extremely worried for your mental well-being ;)

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 26, 2005, 03:21 pm

The problem with Wolverine is that he's pretty much a sissy.

He prances about in bright yellow spandex, apparently so he makes a good target, can get shot a lot, and show off his healing factor.

He's all, like, "I'm a loner", but he joins every team in the Marvel Universe.

His hair is totally lame.

One of his powers is a good sense of smell. Wow. He has one of the same powers as Krypto the Super Dog. That's just so cool.

Plus, he's frequently opposed to ninjas. Ninjas are cool. People who are against ninjas are clearly not.

did they have a sale on troll bait or something? ;)

Lessee, Morpheus doesn't actively try to change things (wasn't that what got him killed?) thus he doesn't have the hero part of the "anti-hero" thing fulfilled.

a hero does not have to actively try to change things. sometimes it's as much about the journey they're taken on as the journey they take. a hero does not have to change anything, they only have to be changed (or else it's a pretty boring story). And Morpheus goes through massive changes. While i don't agree with his inclusion as an anti-hero (and that's just me personally), i don't think you can deny him as a hero...or, by that token, let's throw out King Lear, Hamlet and Oedipus as well. that is to say while he may not fight crime or save the world (though he has done that a couple of times), he is still very much a hero...especially in the classical sense.

Custer, while the star of my favorite comic, is pretty much all hero, considering how crazy the world he's in is. Do right and wrong even come into play when God himself has skipped town?

um...that's pretty much the point. Jesse exists in a grey area of morality and doesn't always do the right thing. he oftentimes feels bad about it later, but it doesn't stop him from doing it again. stealing cars, killing folks, overriding people's own free will with the Word. he ain't exactly a boy scout here.

Haven't read Transmet, the Crow, or Lucifer, but I'm pretty sure Lucifer is in the same vein as Morpheus- doesn't fulfill the hero part in the first place.

he doesn't have to fulfill the hero part, at least not in the sense you're describing. besides which, ask anyone who the hero of Paradise Lost is, they'll tell you Lucifer. i doubt anyone would answer differently if you asked who the hero of the comic "Lucifer" is. but perhaps you should spare your criticisms for books you've actually read. just a notion.

And finally, Constantine. Great character, but not an anti-hero. It seems like the people that put this together decided to define an anti-hero as someone who does the right thing for the wrong reasons. I think it is someone who does the wrong thing for the right reasons. They want to halp the world or others (hero) they just do it in a way that kinda negates their philanthropy (anti).

and it seems to me like you have a very one sided definition of what an anti-hero is. it CAN be both of those things. and how is Constantine NOT an anti-hero? even by your definition. he's manipulated, conned and led people into death and damnation (wrong things) in order to save the world or some other grand heroic goal (right reason). when you're arguing against your own logic, your own logic must be pretty weak.

That's why the Punisher is #1 in my book. Was the concept of anti-hero ever used to define a comic book character before Frank? Not to my recollection. He does despicable acts, the same ones his enemies do, but he believes he doing the right thing. Perhaps questionable sanity should also be a requirement for the list...

yes, anti-hero has been used on comic book characters for quite some time before Frank first showed up with his giant widow's peak. again, almost every character on this list could fall as easily under your one-dimensional definition of anti-hero as they could any other definition. given your avatar, i'd say you might be dealing with just a WEE bit of character bias. i mean, while you're not saying as much, given your rather flawed argument against some of these characters, it seems to me like you think a character has to be toting around an arsenal and blowing people up to be considered an anti-hero. just my read on it, but i don't think you've really thought this through.

Gentleman, as eloquent a piece of work as this article is, unfortunately its fundamentally flawed. Flawed in the sense that nearly every description of these characters reads like a DC comics press release. Infact, do you work for DC?

no. if i did i'd be much more content to put up with smart ass comments like that. are there a lot of DC characters up there? sure, in the sense that Vertigo is an imprint of DC and there are a lot of Vertigo characters up there. but other than Gaiman poaching Milton to create Lucifer and Moore parodizing the Question for Rorschach, pretty much every character is an original creation of the creator's mind and most don't co-exist in a neat and tidy little universe. Morpheus, Constantine and Lucifer, yes. But Spider, Jesse, Rorschach, V (who wasn't even originally published by DC)...they could all just as easily have been published anywhere else. so no, it's not a case of some kind of publisher partisanship. it's just that Vertigo deals with anti-heroes more often than others tend to. so they're naturally going to pop up a bit more when discussing them.

As much as the good old boys at DC/Vertigo like to tell us, John Constantine is not an Anti-Hero. Que the "Oh my Gods!". The guy fights the bloddy Devil for Gods sake, you dont get much more heroic than that. An anti-hero is someone whio could for all intents and purposes be a villain if it were not for their own twisted take on morality and 'justice'. John Constantine is always on the side of 'Good' and he's always facing off against someone whose behaviour and intentions are a lot worse than his. That definitively make him a class-A, 'one of the good guys', HERO.

well, considering he's also fought against angels and actually worked FOR a devil or two, i think that kind of negates your argument. you're almost arguing the opposite of the last guy. he says Constantine can't be an anti-hero because he's not a hero. you're saying he can't be an anti-hero because he is a hero. i'd say when you can make an argument for both, that's a pretty clear indication of an anti hero right there. Constantine is not always on the side of good. More often than not, he's only on the side of Constantine. sure, he's saved the world and a few souls here and there...but he's also damned more than his share and of course it's in his interests to save the world. to quote the Tick, it's where all his stuff is. ;) and usually, if he can, he'll avoid direct conflict to save the world and con someone else into doing it for him.

In fact the only person on that list who is actually an anti-hero is nutty old Rorscarch! Now he is an anti-hero as he is a constant thorn in the side of the 'heroes' in Watchmen, and his perverse views on the worls are unquestionably tainted, as seen by his violent, uncompromising black and white 'wrong is not right' attitude. He is a character who for all reasons we should despise, but just cannot help ourselves from supporting. The same cannot be said about the Punisher, Spider-Jerusalem, Lucifer, Marv or indeed Mr. Constantine. Those guys are always the ones you're routing for when you read a story with them in it, no complications.

so...wait...you can't root for Rorschach because he's an ultra violent vigilante with a hang up on moral absolutism and warped psyche who doesn't always get along with the other heroes in his world...but you can root for the Punisher??? Beyond that...Marv's a sociopathic thug, Spider's an abusive and anti-social bastard who'll kick you in the nuts as soon as look at you, Constantine's a self loathing con man who quite often gets his friends, lovers and family members killed and/or damned and Lucifer is the Devil! i don't think any of them can claim moral superiority over Rorschach...and believe me, there are plenty of people who root for Rorschach while reading Watchmen. I'm not one of them, but i know they're out there. but, again, the fact that they're so flawed and warped, they should be despicable...and yet we still sympathize with them, hope they make it out okay, cheer with their victories and weep with their defeats (hell, i can't stand Rorschach and i still welled up a bit when he's yelling at Manhattan to kill him). i think it's that very dichotomy that makes a great anti-hero.

It seems like a few too many of us view a character on what we're told he is, rather than deciding for ourselves what he is.

lol. seriously, i've just spent the last hour typing out my own thoughts on why several of these characters deserve inclusion, often having to argue against two entirely different and contradictory opinions on the same character. everyone who wrote for this list spent a lot of time and thought on WHY their character deserved this spot and there were months of argument and discussion prior to that as to who should be on this list...who deserved to be, who perhaps didn't, who qualified as an anti-hero and who, for whatever reason, didn't make the cut. but you don't think we can think for ourselves and decide things on our own? we didn't cut and paste blurbs from Vertigo, Dark Horse or Kitchen Sink for these things. they're of our own mind. and as you can clearly see even here in this thread, not everyone who was involved in putting this together agrees with who did/didn't make the list. but we can't think for ourselves and are just toeing the party line? it seems far more likely that you just don't agree with the list (for, as i've pointed out, highly flawed reasons) and so to heighten your own opinion have to debase, degrade and devalue not only the opinions of the many people who worked on putting this together, but the people themselves.

really? all it does is highlight the weakness of your own argument and showcase its fallacies for everyone to see. but thanks for playing.

Stephanie Kay

Oct 26, 2005, 03:40 pm

Woah people - one thing we all knew when participating was the potential for it to rattle a few people - but lets keep it civil - I mean it is just an article. Also I'd rather people didn't personally insult those who took part - it is voluntary, and even those writing weren't completely happy.

The final ten is heavily Vertigo - we aren't stupid - we did notice - but you can either be truthful to the voting, and the reasons/justifications given during said process (which unfortunately people do not get to see in this thread) - or compile a list formed on contrived indie ''intellectualism'' or just attempt a basic popularity poll to quench any discontent. Either of these alternatives would have caused people to simply turn round and say bull :bleep:.

Favourites are on the list, obviously, and there is never an appropriate way of deciding from hundreds of choices - the amount of nominees given during the process was far from any of the DC/Marvel fanboy accusations (so thankyou Deadpool83 for that)

We are also aware of the fundamental problem - the term anti-hero itself - having to consider actions, personality, social, philosophical or religious context, reasoning, attitude, surrounding characters, which one take overall priority - it is not a 'concrete' description, so people can perhaps avoid coming in here and declaring we are all fools and that they know the 'real' definition - we have tried to take this into consideration.

I personally welcome any opinions people have on the term and any omitted characters (we had problems with the Hulk, Wolverine, Morpheus etc.)
but the model chosen is explained in the introduction. And thankyou for any feedback. :)

Phil Hunn

Oct 26, 2005, 04:21 pm

Yeah, Wolverine was deemed a hero and thus ineligable. And lets face it, back when Logan was an anti-hero, everyone hated him and wanted him dead...

And they don't now? ;)

Filthy Mutie

Oct 26, 2005, 04:25 pm

I'd like to see a "Top-10 List Contest" or whatever they're called now that this topic has become so heated. People can't even agree on the definition of an anti-hero.

Alan Lynch

Oct 26, 2005, 04:33 pm

People can't even agree on the definition of an anti-hero.
That's part of the fun though! A big part of the selection process was made up of deciding what an anti-hero was. It's not something everyone will totally agree on, so obviously the list will ruffle a few feathers; good old-fashioned debate is good for what ails ye!

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 26, 2005, 05:08 pm

Kevin Sutton

Oct 26, 2005, 05:09 pm

... Oh I’m glad you mentioned hypocritical. Because from where i’m standing that sums you up.. You make remarks regarding Wolverines absence when you knew the process involved in deciding the list, a list that you could have contributed to..

..and I've already explained my reasons for not doing that. If you don't want to accept those want to call me a hypocrite for that; you go right ahead. It doesn't reflect better on your behaviour.

If you felt so strongly about Wolverines inclusion i’m sure you could have even argued the validity of his inclusion. No you choose not too, instead you wait for the list to go up and start pulling your face.... This whole process was going on for weeks, you had more than enough opportunity to vote, nominate, and argue the point then. So it’s more than a little hypocritical to complain about someone attacking you after you chose not to partake in a process and then complain about the results.. Had you bothered to take part I would have taken your complaint slightly more serious.

Except I don't feel strongly nor was I pulling my face over that. I just mentioned it. You were the one who felt the need to blow off steam, remember? That's what I feel strongly about.... and I can't help but notice you've changed your position and now admit that you were referring to my complaint after claiming you weren't.

Incidentally, I'll make sure to remember in the future that you don't consider deriding other people's opinions an insult. I do have a high standard for board conduct, that's actually something I'm very proud of. In fact, aggressive behaviour is really the only thing that gets me riled up when it comes to message boards.

That's part of the fun though! A big part of the selection process was made up of deciding what an anti-hero was. It's not something everyone will totally agree on, so obviously the list will ruffle a few feathers; good old-fashioned debate is good for what ails ye!

Upon reflection, I think that an anti-hero is somebody who isn't really a good person but just so happens to be the protagonist. There should be some indentification from the audience, but no real acceptance of their behaviour or their motivation. Perhaps just an understanind of them. V , Marv, and Rorshach are great examples of this I think. (and under this defintion I wouldn't consider modern Batman or Wolverine) It certainly makes this list work better for me.

Dylan McKay

Oct 26, 2005, 05:24 pm

Anthony Devlin

Oct 26, 2005, 05:48 pm

..and I've already explained my reasons for not doing that. If you don't want to accept those want to call me a hypocrite for that; you go right ahead. It doesn't reflect better on your behaviour.

Except I don't feel strongly nor was I pulling my face over that. I just mentioned it. You were the one who felt the need to blow off steam, remember? That's what I feel strongly about.... and I can't help but notice you've changed your position and now admit that you were referring to my complaint after claiming you weren't.

Incidentally, I'll make sure to remember in the future that you don't consider deriding other people's opinions an insult. I do have a high standard for board conduct, that's actually something I'm very proud of. In fact, aggressive behaviour is really the only thing that gets me riled up when it comes to message boards.

Me aggressive, to say this shows you clearly don’t know me from Adam then, but still you feel the need to comment on my person on forum, mature... And notice what you like I haven’t changed my position on anything the first part of my original post was a general rant that no one else bar yourself has made a issue over, says something that doesn’t it, making mountains out of mole hills..... Oh, and nice touch by the way, quoting someone else to make your post look less like thread derailment... I would have thought someone with such high regard for board ethics would have taken this to pm by now, I see not. oh well, never mind seems some aren’t as superior as they think they are… Should you want to carry it on hit the pm, I wont be responding to anymore of your unnecessary outbursts or unfounded character attacks.

Stephanie Kay

Oct 26, 2005, 06:11 pm

And a thought, for me, Lucifer would have been #1 except for one problem, he's the one character on the list that I don't believe to be created for comics, but instead, is the exact same character that was in Paradise Lost.
Paradise Lost's Lucifer is one of the most complex literary characters ever concieved - although the readers reaction to him has probably changed over the last 350 years - it's one of my favorite pieces of literature.

Stephanie and i have the same reaction and say pretty much the same thing. but i come off like an angry bastard and she comes off as sweet and delightful. it ain't fair, i tells ya. it just ain't fair. :D
:flower: I didn't preview my post - so I ended up repeating what you said And I only come across sweet because of the smilie heh.

Upon reflection, I think that an anti-hero is somebody who isn't really a good person but just so happens to be the protagonist. There should be some indentification from the audience, but no real acceptance of their behaviour or their motivation. Perhaps just an understanind of them. V , Marv, and Rorshach are great examples of this I think. (and under this defintion I wouldn't consider modern Batman or Wolverine) It certainly makes this list work better for me.
True, although the problem with that definition is how do you define 'good'? What makes a person 'good' - is it in relation to their behaviour overall throughout their history (that for Wolverine, he overall is a 'good guy' now), or when given the context of their world, that they 'appear' good or bad (those around them are infinitely better or worse etc.) or do actions and attitude determine 'badness' . To me, I can 'accept' the motivation of Rorschach and V, although I might not agree with the methods.
Also Jesse and Eric are centrally good people imo, although the former is obviously more faulted and possessed in the literal sense - whereas Eric's turn into The Crow is a product of 'nocturnal' disillusioned anger and death - I mean do you look at his (http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/8414/eric3mw.jpg) picture and see a 'hero' or an 'anti-hero'?
As banal as it sounds, I decide on where character falls often through that strong reaction/impression, rather than trying doing procs and cons and then attempting to sum them up in a one line description.

For me I suppose if pushed, an anti-hero is very dependant on the story in question - motivations can be for the greater good or simply for the self (or sometimes neither) - but whichever, the character is no longer merely 'unconventional', or even a good guy who does 'bad' deeds (if that is even possible to define..)
Their whole depiction is based (deliberately by the writer I'd say) on one that actively challenges concepts of morality, 'normality' towards their own and others behaviour - and this must be present from start to finish in the 'major' work - either symbolically, through their total determined-violence (not just killing but the attitude to the action itself and what it represents), revenge or their occupation or greed, selfishness, possession and obsession, - or a weakness/inflection within their actual persona/s which causes them to be slightly off the deep end.
Tying in with my opinions about Lucifer - I guess in modern reading, there is an embrace of the darkness inherent in every person - if anything, those characters on the list embody that.

Spider-X

Oct 26, 2005, 07:00 pm

Ghost Rider??? I guess no one has it in their hearts for the demon hero.

MrGreen

Oct 26, 2005, 07:33 pm

The Hulk should be up there and everyone knows it. I agree with part of the Wolverine comment. However the person that wrote this and some of the other commentators seem prejudiced against Marvel.

Deadpool83

Oct 26, 2005, 07:33 pm

Whilst the argument has indeed been heated that is only a result of individual people's frustration at criticism, but hey, its all in good intent!

Regarding whether people are a hero, or arent a hero, etc, its very simple. You are an anti-hero if it is debatable whether or not you should be behing the character in question or not. The earlier suggestion that by your logic (self doubt makes you an anti-hero) Spider-man is an anti-hero is absolutely laughable. He's as bloody hero as you get, you never read a Spider-man comic and are not 100% on his side.

My problem stemmed not with the actual inclusion of characters like Constantine, but the reasons they were included. A scowl on your face and mingling with a few unsavoury characters does not make you an anti-hero no matter how much you like quoting DC's 'too cool for school' Constantine character description. "Hes just such a bastard!". Oh how tiresome it quickly becomes.

Sorry to annoy you Jordan though, all comments I post now and forever are completely spite-free. This ones for you and all, its quite educational:

http://www.emogame.com/bg16.swf

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 26, 2005, 07:48 pm

One of my favourite parts of working on this list was that so many debates came up while working on it. (Not the least of which, just what the heck is an anti-hero?) Debates I usually lost mind you. But because we had so many heated discussions and everything was open and on the table, I have confidence in the process that created the list, so, even on the points I disagree with, I believe in the validity of the end result. I assure every reader that these lists aren't just thrown together on a whim but litterally months of work go into each and every one of them.

And a thought, for me, Lucifer would have been #1 except for one problem, he's the one character on the list that I don't believe to be created for comics, but instead, is the exact same character that was in Paradise Lost.

if all you took from my argument of why Constantine is an anti-hero is "because he's a bastard," then i have to wonder if you actually read what i wrote or just skimmed until the very end. i have no problem accepting criticism. i just prefer for it to be backed up with, you know, facts and things. and if it isn't and actively insults the intelligence of myself and those who worked on the piece, then i feel free to respond to said criticism in harsher tones than i might otherwise. i'm weird like that, i guess.

(and i've played that game you posted before...it does indeed kick ass. :D )

tormented_spawn

Oct 26, 2005, 08:27 pm

I'd like to see a "Top-10 List Contest" or whatever they're called now that this topic
Yeah, I would prefer if it was done in The ComiX-Ten format. It's not that the list you guys have here is great. But gives people like Mr "Prejudiced against Marvel" here that chance to choose, which list they like. Surely, one of the list will have the Hulk or whatever to stop all this whining.

Will Carper

Oct 26, 2005, 09:59 pm

Why is there so much controversy over John Constantine and other's inclusion on the list? Anti-Hero's are not necessarily villains (a la The Killer II). John Constantine, Lucifer Morningstar, Eric (who I originally saw as an odd choice), etc. all deserved a place on the list.

Wolverine did, too. Why? The same reason people put Casablanca on their lists of the best movies ever made--it's a classic, as is Wolverine. As Kevin said, he's the reason a lot of the anti-hero cliches exist. And he hasn't been watered down--as recently as Greg Rucka's run he was portrayed as a wayward character.

tormented_spawn

Oct 26, 2005, 10:23 pm

Out of curiosity, who exactly are these anti-heroes that Wolverine influenced? I mean, major characters not any minor characters that no one remembers. Are they in the list mentioned here?

Spider-X

Oct 26, 2005, 10:40 pm

Blade and or the Midnight Sons? The Legion of Monsters?!?! :crazy:

Will Carper

Oct 26, 2005, 10:51 pm

Out of curiosity, who exactly are these anti-heroes that Wolverine influenced? I mean, major characters not any minor characters that no one remembers. Are they in the list mentioned here?

He didn't influence them directly, but I reckon anti-heroes wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it wasn't for him to "break" people in. Maybe I'm wrong, but he had to have had some influence--he's Marvel's second most popular character after all.

And besides, I said cliches, like the ridiculously high body counts, hard drinking and smoking, womanizing, and general badassness. He may not have been the original, but he was definately the most popular (like Harry Potter and Timothy Hunter--two very similar characters, but who do most people recognize?).

Jordan T. Maxwell

Oct 26, 2005, 11:56 pm

Yeah, I would prefer if it was done in The ComiX-Ten format. It's not that the list you guys have here is great. But gives people like Mr "Prejudiced against Marvel" here that chance to choose, which list they like. Surely, one of the list will have the Hulk or whatever to stop all this whining.

the two lists serve two different purposes, though. the Comix-Ten allows each individual writer a chance to express their personal views. and typically on more "fringe" topics. Comixfan Presents is intended more to strive for something definitive. does it fall short? of course. there is no way to produce a "definitive" list that everyone will agree with, but we try...by allowing all staff members to nominate and vote, the hope is that some kind of consensus will form. that extreme opinions will cancel each other out and a middle ground can be found. are people going to disagree? naturally. hell, i helped put the damn thing together and even i disagree with some of it (personally? i think Wolverine SHOULD have been eligible for consideration. wasn't my call though). but accusations of any kind of bias or that only one opinion is being represented here is both ridiculous and ignorant of the actual process involved.

tormented_spawn

Oct 27, 2005, 12:16 am

Blade and or the Midnight Sons? The Legion of Monsters?!?!
That some great characters. Apart from Blade...err, who? Wouldn't Blade be influenced by some dracula movie or something.

but accusations of any kind of bias or that only one opinion is being represented here is both ridiculous and ignorant of the actual process involved.
Okay, okay, I admit I'm bias against SpeakEasy comics, I haven't reading any cause comics store don't supply them here. My secret shame...

Dylan McKay

Oct 27, 2005, 01:02 am

These lists do tend to be biassed. Generally the more creators a character has had, the less likely they will make a definative list. I know our #1 selection is an exception. But when you look at the list, only 3 have had multiple writers (Punisher, Lucifer and Constantine.) and in all likelihood, Punisher would have struggled to make the list had Ennis not been his current writer. The problem is that multiple writers water down the ability to have a definative interpretation. A character like The Hulk, when you look at his history, it's all over the map in so far as how he should be catagorized. That makes it alot harder for them to compete against someone like Rorschach who has a very "clean" history.

The other point, and this is objective, (:)) Alan Moore and Garth Ennis write great anti-heroes, generally better than any other writer. So the list naturally biasses to their characters. Half the list has been written by one of them.

Also, you'll notice we had well over twenty people involved in the selection process. That makes it alot harder for biasses to be prevelant.

Oh and there is of course the most prevelant bias, that is virtually unavoidable. (If the list was created entirely by comic shop owners it may have been avoidable.) And that is differing information, or in other words, not everyone has read the same books, and some characters inevitably have less expossure than others. So while Watchmen is very widely read and well known, The Psycho (Who's star Jake Riley was a nominee) is not well known, to my knowledge has never been collected into a trade and is inevitably at a disadvantage. But then again, I don't see many people complaining that they wanted more characters they haven't heard of...

I personally try to buy nominated books when possible. (For this list I bought the Crow and a volume of Lupin III (Another nominee that didn't make the list.)) But I can't buy everything and read everything.

And on a related note, could someone explain to me how a popular version of Wolverine has ever been an anti-hero. Brinking, smoking and killing don't make a character an anti-hero. I see Wolverine as a man one a quest for truth while fighting oppression, that's pretty darn heroic.

Will Carper

Oct 27, 2005, 01:15 am

And on a related note, could someone explain to me how a popular version of Wolverine has ever been an anti-hero. Brinking, smoking and killing don't make a character an anti-hero. I see Wolverine as a man one a quest for truth while fighting oppression, that's pretty darn heroic.

Like Spider? ;)

Greg Rucka's Wolverine (which exists pretty much on its own--all you need to know is that he and Nightcrawler are friends and that Sabretooth is a bad guy) portrayed him as an anti-hero. He was a good guy, but his actions and the way he handled situations were more along the lines of the Punisher.

For example, the first story arc showed him going berserk and slaughtering 27 cult members who brainwashed teenage girls into becoming sex slaves for their master. His slipping in and out of a bestial rage brought him constant angst and that struggle was the focus of the first 11-12 issues.

You're right that more mainstream versions of Wolverine are watered down, but he has definately been an anti-hero along the lines of The Punisher and John Constantine.

Ryan Day

Oct 27, 2005, 01:32 am

Out of curiosity, who exactly are these anti-heroes that Wolverine influenced?

Well, X-23, I suppose.

Really, it's probably about an equal mix of Wolverine and the Punisher that gave rise to the bad-boy anti-hero, with a big boost from Watchmen and Dark Knight.

And on a related note, could someone explain to me how a popular version of Wolverine has ever been an anti-hero. Brinking, smoking and killing don't make a character an anti-hero. I see Wolverine as a man one a quest for truth while fighting oppression, that's pretty darn heroic.

I'd say the original Claremont/Miller miniseries did a great job of it. Logan tried to live up to the ideals of honour and duty in order to be worthy of Mariko, but doing so meant he had to fight his own nature and his instinct to be a wild loner.

As you point out, when a character has so many writers over the years, the core can be diluted. What is the point of Wolverine? What is a Wolverine book about? I honestly don't know. I can pick a few particular phases, like Claremont/Byrne/Miller and Rucka, but otherwise he's kind of a vague, ill-defined character.

But on the other hand, we know exactly who Rorschach and V are, because Alan Moore wrote all that will ever be written on the characters. Even Lucifer gets by on this criteria: The basis for the character comes from Milton, with a tweaking and modernization by Gaiman and then the more in-depth exploration by Carey.

Hellblazer escapes the trap based on the overall quality of the series - relatively few writers, almost all of whom are tremendously well-regarded. Created by Alan Moore, worked on by Jamie Delano, Garth Ennis (who wrote perhaps the definitive run), Warren Ellis, Brian Azzarello, and Mike Carey. We can discuss Marvel/DC bias until the cows come home (though I haven't any idea why people would really care), but you'd be hard-pressed to find a Marvel book with such an excellent string of creators.

Anand Khatri

Oct 27, 2005, 01:58 am

I just wanted Greg Feely on the list. :( Oh and sorry to everybody on the site. This would have been out earlier if I wasn't busy (really a slacker). Thanks Joel for covering me. :) Great list guys! :)

Oh and thank god that Logan didn't make the list.

Alan Lynch

Oct 27, 2005, 05:29 am

Upon reflection, I think that an anti-hero is somebody who isn't really a good person but just so happens to be the protagonist.
I dunno, things like American Psycho have a clearly unsympathetic character as the protagonist. In a lot of cases that definition fits (it seems to apply to a lot of the list) but anti-hero seems like a lot more than that IMO.
Paradise Lost's Lucifer is one of the most complex literary characters ever concieved - although the readers reaction to him has probably changed over the last 350 years - it's one of my favorite pieces of literature.
University really put me off Paradise Lost. Maybe if I reread it in about 10 years I won't hold quite so big a grudge...
Ghost Rider??? I guess no one has it in their hearts for the demon hero.
Wow, I don't remember his name even coming up...Maybe if the current (and so far excellent) mini had come out a little earlier.
I just wanted Greg Feely on the list. :(
Whisper it...Kaneda!
Oh and thank god that Logan didn't make the list.
I'm amazed that this has been up for 3 whole hours without response :P

Alex Guillen

Oct 27, 2005, 09:33 am

well I agree with most of the list and they are all relly anti heroes in that sense thta thye don't realy pass their time thinking about others and saving the world from a "big bad" every week.
I guess they're really the heroes that in real life we are, we're not really all that good and jolly and we don't have the best outlook on the world anyways but I guess these goes to show us that there are just darker versions of ourselves.

Ovid

Oct 30, 2005, 10:47 am

Personally, I don't think many of the characters on the list are strictly anti-heroes at all. How are any of them 'normal' like Willie Loman or Leopold Bloom? Harvey Pekar should've been on, without a doubt. Maybe the Hulk too, since as Alan said, he just 'is'.

Still, I argued this corner when the list was being put together and lost. :sigh: