ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #91 REVIEW

[Stephanie Kay]

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/covers/marvel/ultspiderman91.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/covers/marvel/ultspiderman91t.jpg" align=left hspace=10 alt="Ultimate Spider-Man #91"></a>Reviewer: Zachary Ayotte, zachzealand@gmail.com
Story Title: Deadpool: Part 1

Fast Times at X-Men High

Writer: Brian Michael Bendis
Penciller: Mark Bagley
Inker: John Dell
Colorist: Justin Ponsor
Letterer: VC’s Cory Petit
Production: Tom Valente
Assistant Editor: Nicole Wiley Boose
Associate Editor: John Barber
Editor: Ralph Macchio
Editor in Chief: Joe Quesada
Publisher: Dan Buckley
Published by: Marvel Comics (http://www.marvel.com)

Moon Knight. Silver Sable. Deadpool. Three characters that I knew almost nothing about in the regular universe. We have seen each of them ultimatized over the course of the last three story arcs of Ultimate Spider-Man. I don’t care much for Moon Knight, Ultimate or otherwise. I could never get past the fact that he wears an all-white costume at night. Plus, I always saw him as a lesser Batman. It probably isn’t the case, but the point is the problems I had with the character were still around in the Ultimate Universe. I always thought Silver Sable was destined to be a supporting character. She always felt like such a stock character to me, dishing out the typical tough-character dialogue right on cue. Of course, like I said, I know almost nothing about her. Although if Nick Fury ever decides to tie the knot, I think Silver Sable would be a great choice. Deadpool. Ah, Deadpool. I used to love Deadpool. I have no idea why. I never read any book that involved him. To be honest, I think he reminded me of Snake Eyes. He was this guy in a mostly monochromatic costume who, in my head, never spoke and kicked some serious butt. I don’t actually think Deadpool was a mute (although by the end of this issue, part of me wishes he was) and I have no idea whose butt I was so convinced he was kicking. But somehow it was cool. I feel like this book has been lacking in some cool lately. I don’t think it’s gone, but it does feel like someone pulled the plug and the cool is slowly draining out of Spidey’s bath tub, like Aunt May forgot to buy milk and so Peter hasn’t been eating his Wheaties in the morning. Could Deadpool be the one to put the stopper back in the bath? Could he be the milk? I picked up this issue with my fingers crossed and wondered two things. The first was, “Is Ultimate Deadpool a girl?” and the second was “Will he/she be cool enough?”

If you’ve read this issue then you will know that the answer to the first question is “no.” The girly-like character on the cover of this issue marks the first appearance of the multiple personality Kitty Pryde of the 616 universe. When I started reading comics, Kitty was Shadowcat and she was in her blue Jennifer Biels-in-Flashdance costume. I wasn’t around for the many names and costumes of Kitty Pryde. I still knew about it, though, and I always thought it was a comment on the teenage quest for identity. Plus, if my codename were 'Sprite', I’d change it too. I think Kitty going out with Spider-Man and fighting a whole different kind of bad guy with him is another way of figuring out who she is and where she fits. I think this works and is a good explanation for a new costume and a new name (which she has yet to receive…man I hope it’s not Ariel). I do feel like I should mention, though, that I thought the many names and looks of Kitty were badly received. Don’t quote me on this, but I thought a lot of people disliked her many looks and names, which makes me question Bendis’s motivation for introducing the idea. I always thought that the Ultimate universe was a chance for the creators to avoid some of the disasters of 616 universe. Instead, it seems it’s a chance for the creators to take those ideas and make them more realistic, more plausible or to simply make them better (fingers crossed for the impending clone saga). I have to say, I love Kitty and Peter (Parker, not Rasputin) as a couple. It just works so well. I think this is partly because Bendis writes both the characters so well. I always flinch when I see him take on characters from other books because I do not think he handles all of them well (Emma Frost in The Sentry arc of New Avengers, for example) but I really think he has a handle on Kitty.

And of course he knows how to write Spider-Man. I hesitate to say this because I know there is at least one person ready to prove me wrong, but I think that Mr. Bendis handles Spider-Man better than he does any other character. I’m not talking about story or action or motivation. I simply mean dialogue. Spider-Man’s dialogue in this series (and in New Avengers continues to be spot on. I have to admit that I’ve found the past couple of story arcs a little dry (with the exception of the last issue), and it’s probably one part habit, one part faith, and two parts witty banter that keep me coming back. I can’t believe no one has used that Hello Kitty line before. But I do hope that there is more than pop culture humor in this arc.

Okay so enough about Spidey, let’s get to Deadpool and question two, “Will he be cool enough?” Even though he is not a girl, which would have been cool, it does seem he has managed to take out all of the X-Men and Spider-Man. That would suggest yes. It also seems that underneath that mask Deadpool is in fact Jeff Spicoli, which is cool, but not necessarily Deadpool cool. I never imagined Deadpool would be a character capable of saying “Faaaaar out” but maybe all the time he has been spending with the cast of “Cyborg Eye for the Superhero Guy” has changed him a bit. Other than that, we don’t really know much about Deadpool yet. We don’t know why he is after the X-Men, what he has planned for them, or what he has to do with Johnny hula-hoop, if anything. I’m sure it’s all coming, though, and I hope it’s cool.

I have to say that if you asked me what I thought of the art in this books six or seven issues ago, I would have said that I thought Mr. Bagley was slipping. I found the art in the Warriors arc rushed and lacking in the detail that I have come to enjoy from usual art. This issue, along with the last arc, has restored my faith in Mr. Bagley’s work. I think Bagley is just as much the voice of Ultimate Spider-Man as Bendis is. I think, for the most part, his work on this series has been sensational and I hope he sticks around.

So Deadpool has been introduced, and like his 616 counterpart, I know nothing about him, other than the fact that he may like to surf in his spare time. I enjoyed this issue and look forward to seeing where Deadpool is going. I thought the original Deadpool was cool without ever reading about him so, seemingly, the Ultimate universe shouldn’t have much trouble winning me over, but I too am like milk, I sour easily.

ART:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpg

STORY:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spihalf.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpg

OVERALL:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spihalf.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpg

Buy Ultimate Spider-Man #91 online now from X-World and save! (http://x-worldcomics.com/yourvirtualstore/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=77&cat=ULTIMATE+SPIDER%2DMAN)

[Commander Breetai]

Ummm... yeah, okay. Why did this review read like "I don´t know jack about all those characters, and I don´t care to learn anything about them!"?

[Stephanie Kay]

Ummm... yeah, okay. Why did this review read like "I don´t know jack about all those characters, and I don´t care to learn anything about them!"?
Well I can't speak for Zachary, but perhaps it was alluding to the relationship between the 616 and Ultimate, which boths works on pros and cons of the former, and whether actually the variations are a significant leaps from those who precede them (i.e. ''the the point is the problems I had with the character were still around in the Ultimate Universe) If you need to 'know' about the originals to read the Ultimates then it defeats the point. I'd say. But I'm not sure as I haven't read this comic for quite a while so I may be way off ^_~

[Kizmet]

Deadpool. Ah, Deadpool. I used to love Deadpool. I have no idea why. I never read any book that involved him. To be honest, I think he reminded me of Snake Eyes. He was this guy in a mostly monochromatic costume who, in my head, never spoke and kicked some serious butt. I don’t actually think Deadpool was a mute (although by the end of this issue, part of me wishes he was) and I have no idea whose butt I was so convinced he was kicking. But somehow it was cool.

Um you're talking about the 616 Deadpool here aren't you? The guy who's tag-line is 'the merc with the mouth'? Cable's co-star in "Cable & Deadpool"? The guy who never shuts up, particularly when he has absolutely nothing to say? You though he was mute in 616?

Did Deadpool go through some complete rewrite of his character at some point in his past? Because your description of the Ultamized Deadpool sounds a lot more like 616 Deadpool than your description of your impression of 616 Deadpool.

[mr. 983]

I never imagined Deadpool would be a character capable of saying “Faaaaar out”

Um, he is. Deadpool will say anything, be it slang (current, outdated, or percieved), pop-culture references, political references. The man suffers from oral diarreha. Think Spider-man but more vulgar.

I thought this was a pretty good intro. I missed a few issues, so i'm not completely up to date on a lot of the Kitty/Peter stuff, but it picked upwihout any problem. All in all 7/10 for me.

However, there was one unforgivable sin, that i will never forgive Bendis or the editors for...

DEADPOOL NEEDS TO TALK IN LITTLE YELLOW WORD BALLOONS!!!
it's just not the same without them...

[benbacca37]

Um you're talking about the 616 Deadpool here aren't you? The guy who's tag-line is 'the merc with the mouth'? Cable's co-star in "Cable & Deadpool"? The guy who never shuts up, particularly when he has absolutely nothing to say? You though he was mute in 616?

Did Deadpool go through some complete rewrite of his character at some point in his past? Because your description of the Ultamized Deadpool sounds a lot more like 616 Deadpool than your description of your impression of 616 Deadpool.

I was going to say the same thing. Deadpool never EVER shuts up. He's one puzzle piece short of a bunch of bananas if you know what I mean. Also Deadpool's colors have always been black and red, not monochromatic. I haven't read this issue yet (I flipped through it), but I have it in my box waiting to be bought so I really can't comment on UDP's characterization. But I'm sure it's not too far off from the 616 version.

However, there was one unforgivable sin, that i will never forgive Bendis or the editors for...

DEADPOOL NEEDS TO TALK IN LITTLE YELLOW WORD BALLOONS!!!
it's just not the same without them...

Yah, I was also hoping for that.


Zachary, you better be careful in the future otherwise you'll incur the wrath of all of Deadpool's rabid fans. All 184.5 of us.

[Filthy Mutie]

I'm going to have to agree--I'm very confused by this review. It doesn't read like, well, a review. There's a lot of weird, um, speculation (?) about things that don't exactly tell me anything about this book, like: is Deadpool as cool as the version of him you "loved" but obviously knew absolutely nothing about? Teenage quest for identity? There was a second that I thought maybe this was sort of a satirical take on how the Ultimate line has become a bit too much like the regular MU titles under all pens but Millar's... then I was just sort of confused more.

[gnosis]

Yes, Deadpool sort of has the Snake Eyes look going, but the similarities end there. As others have stated 616 Deadpool cant shut up, is a huge wise ass and it pretty much batshit crazy. I'm a little worried about what Bendis is going to do with the character. I'm hoping there are some similarites to the 616 version aside from the name and costume. Of course if there aren't I'm sure it will be brought up in the C &DP letters column. That said I do like the Ultimized version of Deadpool's costume as well as Reavers (one even looks like an homage to the Reavers in Firefly).

Zachary, you better be careful in the future otherwise you'll incur the wrath of all of Deadpool's rabid fans. All 184.5 of us.

Not to mention Moon Knight fans. That could bring the total up to 193.8 or so.

[umanumanamo]

There are a lot more than 184.5 of us... almost everywhere I go DP issues are sold out.

Good issue!

[dalunt]

Think Spider-man but more vulgar...

exactly! that is why i'm so excited to read this, because like he said, Bendis is great at writing spiderman, because he totally gets the spider man humor. i can't wait to see what he does with deadpool, because if bendis can make spider man hilarious (especially in new avengers and daredevil) just imagine what he could do with a "more vulgar spiderman." genius!

[Bernard Murnane]

How'd you get a purple cover... mine is still the "golden" standard one...

[James Groves]

How'd you get a purple cover... mine is still the "golden" standard one...

You dunk it in some prune juice.

[Anthony Devlin]

You dunk it in some prune juice.

:LOL: prune juice

[Zachary Ayotte]

So, I guess I have some 'splaining to do.

I was trying to do a couple of things with this review. The first was to explore the 616/ultimate universes. I always saw the ultimate universe as something that should start in a place similar to that of the 616 universe and progressively get farther away from it. The characters may have the same names and generally they look the same but what they do and how they act can be as different from their 616 counterparts as one can imagine. For me, some of the most exciting parts of the Ultimate Universe are the moments when things are differently. When Gwen Stacey lived, I was excited because it opened all these new avenues of potential. I feel like that is going away. I feel like the 616 and ultimate universes are getting closer together. In my opinion, the 616 universe is full of ideas, not requirements. Not everything that was done the first time must be redone the second time. And if they are redone, they can be changed, really changed. Introducing another Kitty costume with a similar justification (teenage quest for identity) really drew my attention to this concern.

When the Ultimate Universe was created, I thought it was supposed to appeal to old fans of the characters as well as a new audience. I know the Peter Parker basics but in a lot of ways, I am a new audience. I knew very little about a lot of these characters prior to reading Ultimate Spider-Man. I knew almost nothing about Silver Sable and even less about Moon Knight prior to the last two arcs. It’s like I was being introduced to characters that I had never met before, but have seen around many times. For me, it didn’t feel like much of an introduction. It did nothing to increase my interest in the characters nor did it give me much background about them. This is something that I suppose I would have to get from future issues (which I am willing to wait for if they are to come back and play larger roles in Spidey’s life) or from issues of 616 books. If my solution is the latter then I have to wonder what the point of the Ultimate Unverse is at all.

The other thing I wanted to do was to talk about Deadpool. He is a character like Silver Sable and Moon Knight in the sense that I am essentially a new audience for him. I have seen him around but have never really been introduced to him. From what I saw, I thought he was the strong silent type. He looked to me like a character who never spoke much and was a tough assassin. I always liked the idea (even though it was created in my head) and was excited to see how the character compared to what I had imagined him to be all these years. It was never intended as an attack on the character. I don’t think I ever even said anything worthy on insulting him other than compare him to a film character from the 80’s. I simply didn’t know who he was or what he was about. I did not have the background that many of you do. As I’ve said, I knew nothing about him, what I described was simply what I anticipated.

If I had been writing this for an audience of me, what I anticipated would have been relevant. As a reviewer, though, to not research the 616 version of this character was irresponsible, and for that I apologize. It is a mistake I will attempt to not make in the future.

So, with that said, I’m sorry the review wasn’t well received and that it was less of a review than what one is used to. My next review was going to be in haiku form and would centre on the idea of killing off Wolverine…but maybe I’ll reconsider.

[X.S.E member]

Good book
Terrible review

[Bernard Murnane]

You dunk it in some prune juice.

And now its all pruney... and it has to go bathroom... a lot!

[Ovid]

Good book
Terrible review
Worse post.

[J.E.S]

Meh... it was an okay issue.

Peter and Kitty really have a chemistry, I hope it doesn't go to the wayside soon... it's almost inevitable that Peter will get back together with MJ at some point.

Good to see Deadpool in the ultimate universe.

[Ken Boehm]

OK, the reason the warriors arc looked so bad was because Scott Hanna was inking Bagley. If you notice, John Dell has inked the past two issues, and they are much crisper than the past 12 issues have been. Almost as crisp as Art Thibert's first 40 issues or so.

So no Bagley hating.

[Kizmet]

When the Ultimate Universe was created, I thought it was supposed to appeal to old fans of the characters as well as a new audience. I know the Peter Parker basics but in a lot of ways, I am a new audience. I knew very little about a lot of these characters prior to reading Ultimate Spider-Man.

So why not write your review as a member of that 'new audience', it would be perfectly valid to review as someone who has no real knowledge of Silver Sable, Moon Knight or Deadpool. "This is my first introduction to the following characters and this is what I think of them..."

The other thing I wanted to do was to talk about Deadpool. He is a character like Silver Sable and Moon Knight in the sense that I am essentially a new audience for him. I have seen him around but have never really been introduced to him. From what I saw, I thought he was the strong silent type. He looked to me like a character who never spoke much and was a tough assassin. I always liked the idea (even though it was created in my head) and was excited to see how the character compared to what I had imagined him to be all these years. It was never intended as an attack on the character. I don’t think I ever even said anything worthy on insulting him other than compare him to a film character from the 80’s. I simply didn’t know who he was or what he was about. I did not have the background that many of you do. As I’ve said, I knew nothing about him, what I described was simply what I anticipated.

Your description of Deadpool wasn't insulting, it was just inacurate in pretty much every aspect. You say you've seen him around, but I think you're probably confusing him with another character since even your discription of his costume is wrong.

It is extremely difficult to do a good job of comparing two things when you know absolutely nothing about one of them. Basically what your review of Deadpool boiled down to was "Ultimate Deadpool is a lot like 616 Deadpool. Not that I realized that, because I know absolutely nothing about 616 Deadpool, but in my imagination he's like Snake-Eyes."

[Commander Breetai]

Peter and Kitty really have a chemistry, I hope it doesn't go to the wayside soon... it's almost inevitable that Peter will get back together with MJ at some point.

I dearly hope we can avoid that clichéd "Pete has to be with *that* person, because in the 616 universe he is.".... I still think killing Gwen was Bendis mayor mistake in the series yet, and I hope to see something different happen here than in the regular MU with MJ. Pete and Kitty are too cute together... I hope they last.

Good to see Deadpool in the ultimate universe.

Meh... 616 Wade would beat up Ultimate DP and his cyberbuddies in a second... just for Ultimate DP not talking in yellow word balloons. :P

Magnus

[Ovid]

So why not write your review as a member of that 'new audience', it would be perfectly valid to review as someone who has no real knowledge of Silver Sable, Moon Knight or Deadpool. "This is my first introduction to the following characters and this is what I think of them..."Because the moment a reviewer mentions his POV, posters use it against him/her to shoot down a review they don't agree with. This is true both when the reviewers says s/he's new to a title and when s/he says s/he's experienced. Generally speaking, a reviewer should simply say what s/he thinks of the title and leave it at that.

Sometimes the reviewer makes a mistake anyway and Zachary's apologised for that. Personally, I thought that was very big of him. Apparently that's not enough for some posters, though, and they have to continue to parade their superiority. (I'm largely not referring to you, here, Kizmet, although I do wonder why you couldn't just drop the subject after Zachary's post too.)

[BlingstonHughes]

Well Zachary, I can see where you're coming from. Prior to actually reading anything with Deadpool in it, I remember seeing him on almost every series of Marvel Trading Cards. He was overly menacing looking, in a really intense action pose, and nothing on the card indicated he was a goofy comedian. In fact, I remember thinking that he was pretty cool looking and he's probably a no-nonsense assassin, based on the look of him. Give or take 10 years later, when a friend of mine, who happens to be a huge DP fan, actually showed me some of his issues. I was a bit disoriented by the experience. "Merc with a mouth"? Why had I not heard this before? I completely understand where you were coming from, but over time, I've become accustomed to DP's antics and personality. He's extreme Spiderman, and if he actually was the character I imagined him to be prior to actually reading him, he'd probably have worn out his welcome long ago.

[Angelophile]

From what I saw, I thought he was the strong silent type. He looked to me like a character who never spoke much and was a tough assassin.

I'm mostly just confused where you ever got this idea from.

Deadpool has never been the strong, silent time. I don't think even in his very first appearances he could be described as silent.

I'm also unclear what the appeal would be with that anyway. Aren't there a billion strong, silent, masked assassins out there already?

Deadpool's appeal has always been that he was a strong, silent assassin type who never shuts up.

That's what makes him him and what makes him unique amongst a sea of silent but deadly types.

[BlingstonHughes]

If you note, he also said he basically only knew Deadpool by sight. He didn't know anything about him, but he liked him because he looked cool. If you were to look at any action shot of Deadpool, without knowing anything about his personality, it would be difficult to imagine that anyone would believe he was a goofy, cornball, comedian character. He has a menacing costume. He's got a dark look. He knows Deadpool now. Done.

[Ovid]

Precisely - it's precisely because there's "a billion/a sea" of those kinds that it's a reasonable assumption to make.

But of course, even though Zachary's apologised, some people can't seem to keep their counsel to themselves.

[spam]

I always thought that the Ultimate universe was a chance for the creators to avoid some of the disasters of 616 universe. Instead, it seems it’s a chance for the creators to take those ideas and make them more realistic, more plausible or to simply make them better (fingers crossed for the impending clone saga).

It really would have been nice if the U.U. was the first case, but it doesn't even seem to be the second case. They made Colossus gay, Nick Fury black, had Wolverine molest Jean Grey, made Captain America a jerk, Hulk an unlikeable psychopath and called it a day. Note that I only consider the first two positive steps to move comics into today...although maybe some people would disagree and say that violence and sex is what people want today. Me, I'm hoping we just want good stories.

This is just my opinion of the U.U. as a whole. Individually, I have enjoyed most of the ultimate books, but just really wished they weren't so freaking afraid to try new things. Kill Mary Jane! Give a character a gender or ethnicity swap, anything really....In an ideal ultimate world, the Spider-Man might actually staying with Kitty would be a possibility...and a very, very, very cool one. However, sadly, we know this will end soon enough and he'll be back to MJ. But I hope they at least wait another 100 issues (and hopefully a year or 3 comic world time) to get them back together.

Whatever. I still love pretty much everything Bendis pukes up, but I don't have a whole lot of hope for the plot seeds of U.U. straying into anything totally new.

[Commander Breetai]

It really would have been nice if the U.U. was the first case, but it doesn't even seem to be the second case. They made Colossus gay, Nick Fury black, had Wolverine molest Jean Grey, made Captain America a jerk, Hulk an unlikeable psychopath and called it a day. Note that I only consider the first two positive steps to move comics into today...although maybe some people would disagree and say that violence and sex is what people want today. Me, I'm hoping we just want good stories.


I agree completely. Note, however, that most of those negative things you mentioned ( "negative" appyling to everything after Nick Fury, to be precise ), were done by Mark Millar. Giving him free reign to do what he wanted with the Ultimate X-Men and the Ultimates wasn´t that good of an idea, IMO. The X-Men have gotten much more human and likeable since he isn´t writing them anymore. Let´s see if the Ultimates become less of a bunch of jerks after he stops writing them.

This is just my opinion of the U.U. as a whole. Individually, I have enjoyed most of the ultimate books, but just really wished they weren't so freaking afraid to try new things. Kill Mary Jane! Give a character a gender or ethnicity swap, anything really....In an ideal ultimate world, the Spider-Man might actually staying with Kitty would be a possibility...and a very, very, very cool one. However, sadly, we know this will end soon enough and he'll be back to MJ. But I hope they at least wait another 100 issues (and hopefully a year or 3 comic world time) to get them back together.

Whatever. I still love pretty much everything Bendis pukes up, but I don't have a whole lot of hope for the plot seeds of U.U. straying into anything totally new.

Here I hope you are wrong. As I said before, Marvel has a chance to do something radically different with this universe, and while they dropped the ball on some occasions ( Gwen Stacy... <heavy sigh> ), on the whole they´ve done good. Them using recognizable villains from the 616 universe is comercially sound, but I hope they have more sense than trying to make the two universes too similar. Hell, in the 616 universe, everybody and his brother do believe that JQ intends to separate Pete and MJ, so why do they *need* to be together in the Ultimate universe?

Magnus

[BritishSeaPower]

Honestly.... USM has dropped in quality until the Kitty and Peter action this issue. I can't say I enjoyed the plot of this issue, it seems rather.... hackneyed. But the Peter and Kitty stuff was gold as was the nice character moment with Aunt May.

As to the review. Despite the reviewer's confusion on Deadpool (I would say that he had said the opposite: 616 Deadpool=Funny, Ult. Deadpool=Unfunny, I would agree with him.) I agree with most of the review. The only qualm I have with it, is the reference to the teenage quest for identity. I would agree that 616 Kitty's codename changes (Sprite, Ariel, etc.) are a relfection of that. I don't see that here. I see it exactly as it was explained. And I have question, was it ever stated in the issue that in that costume she's Sprite? Not that I'm challenging the reviewer on it, I honestly don't remember. But despite those two disagreements..... I enjoyed the review and totally understand the confusion he has over Silver Sable and Moon Knight. I'm only aware of who/what Silver Sable is because of the Spider-Man animated Series and the Spider-Man guide by DK. And I enjoyed her in that context, but in a very need to know the 616 to get it. That's my issue with everything but Ultimates and to a degree Spider-Man. Moon Knight I only know a little about and thought the Ultimate version of the character was done an injustice with a very mediocre job.

So yeah... there we go. Good job, Zachary.

[Filthy Mutie]

I agree completely. Note, however, that most of those negative things you mentioned ( "negative" appyling to everything after Nick Fury, to be precise ), were done by Mark Millar. Giving him free reign to do what he wanted with the Ultimate X-Men and the Ultimates wasn´t that good of an idea, IMO. The X-Men have gotten much more human and likeable since he isn´t writing them anymore. Let´s see if the Ultimates become less of a bunch of jerks after he stops writing them.

I have to disagree.

When Millar was in charge of his large chunk of the universe (Bendis over in Spidey Land), it was grittier, less predictable, most unlike 616, and so on. Plus, it had one voice and one vision, so it felt a lot more cohesive. Part of the appeal was the darkness and that they were "a bunch of jerks", as it was one of the key differences between the Ultimate line and 616 titles.

Since Millar left X-Men (in a fairly obvious hurry for some reason), it's become more and more like 616 or the movies. There are some rare tentpoles here and there, like Sinister, but that's really about it. Wolverine, for example, was at least ten time more interesting when he was a total wildcard and now's he's pretty much just like 616 Wolverine, but they're getting to his origins quicker.

Having Captain America fairly bigoted makes total sense. He comes from an age where that mentallity was more commonplace than it is now. I want him to stay "a jerk", I want Tony Stark to stay a more obvious man-whore and alcoholic, I want Hulk to be the epitome of the male id, I want Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to stay ambiguously creepy... if someone wants to see everyone be nice and play together, they should be reading the 616 titles anyway (except for Civil War, maybe).

I stopped reading Ultimate X-Men because of the change in its voice. If Ultimates changes similarly, I will ignore that book, too.

[Commander Breetai]

I have to disagree.

When Millar was in charge of his large chunk of the universe (Bendis over in Spidey Land), it was grittier, less predictable, most unlike 616, and so on. Plus, it had one voice and one vision, so it felt a lot more cohesive. Part of the appeal was the darkness and that they were "a bunch of jerks", as it was one of the key differences between the Ultimate line and 616 titles.

Since Millar left X-Men (in a fairly obvious hurry for some reason), it's become more and more like 616 or the movies. There are some rare tentpoles here and there, like Sinister, but that's really about it. Wolverine, for example, was at least ten time more interesting when he was a total wildcard and now's he's pretty much just like 616 Wolverine, but they're getting to his origins quicker.

Having Captain Aerica fairly bigoted makes total sense. He comes from an age where that mentallity was more commonplace than it is now. I want him to stay "a jerk", I want Tony Stark to stay a more obvious man-whore and alcoholic, I want Hulk to be the epitome of the male id, I want Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to stay ambiguously creepy... if someone wants to see everyone be nice and play together, they should be reading the 616 titles anyway (except for Civil War, maybe).

I stopped reading Ultimate X-Men because of the change in its voice. If Ultimates changes similarly, I will ignore that book, too.

<shrug> Sure, your prerogative. While I collected UXM under Millar, I sold those issues, because I couldn´t connect emotionally to those people at all. Under Bendis and Vaughn UXM has become one of my favorite comics. Because the X-Men act like I hope human beings ( or mutants ) to act, not like a bunch of ultra-cynical jerks.

As for Captain America... my main gripe with the portrayal of him is his use of excessive violence, something the *real* Cap would completely condemn ( yeah, yeah... "Real" is relative here, I know. ). And, yeah, he is pretty much of an asshat, too.

Sorry, but cynism and excessive violence are not what makes a comic interesting... good storytelling does. At least from my side of the fence.

Magnus

[Filthy Mutie]

Most of the stories happened because the characters were jerks, cynicism runs rampant, and they use excessive violence. These attributes yielded the conditions for the stories to happen in the first place. Look at Ultimates--the Hulk incidents wouldn't happen without Banner's hubris and Hulk's hulkiness; Captain America's supposed betrayal wouldn't have been believable at all if he wasn't set up as a character that you could say "yeah, I guess I could see him doing that"; Black Widow's actual betrayal; "is Thor a god or is he totally nuts"... then in X-Men, you have how Wolverine tried to kill Cyclops; how Wolverine was an agent of Magneto; Magneto and Quicksilver's "relationship"; "is Xavier manipulating the X-Men or did they all join by their free will?"; Xavier mindwhiping Magneto rather casually; the Brotherhood being an actual threat rather than a group of bankrobbers...

I mean, I can be wrong, but I think all of those stories are still great and interesting. They defined the line. I didn't buy the books for the violence and cynicism--that's just a window-dressing. It made things more believable, threats actually theatening, and gives you a sense that there are actual consequences. I didn't read League, or Dark Knight, or V, or Watchmen, or Hellboy, or... for the cynicism, violence, gloom-and-doom, or jerks, but they did happen.

I can't comment on emotional connection, however. In all my years of reading comics (I'm going to keep this strictly comic-related), I'm not sure I ever emotionally connected to a character. I mean, there is empathy, understanding of perspective, and general, loose, human things like that, but I was never like "yeah, Slapstick, I totally know what you're going through and I relate to you on a very personal level". I used to be a huge Wolverine fan, for example, but I never felt connected to him. I just thought he was cool and (at the time) was in some really good, entertaining stories.

So... yeah. Maybe that's the root of difference. What I'm really certain of right now, however, is that I want to go get some more coffee.

[Commander Breetai]

So... yeah. Maybe that's the root of difference. What I'm really certain of right now, however, is that I want to go get some more coffee.

Get that coffee. :) Cheers!

[stupidstufftosay]

First off, it was a mistake for Joe Q to start an Ultimates verse and not one based onthe films. The main problem Marvel still has is that kids watch Xmen 2 or Spiderman 2 or the Hulk and cant go the comics and find THOSE iterations of characters.

That being said, I think the Ultima-verse is extremely exciting becuase...you dont really know whats going to happen. Spiderman COULD die. Anybody could die. And I hope they do. I hope this Universe basically begins and ends within 10 yrs, making one complete and awesome story with a beginning middle and end, which is what 616 lacks and why it no longer has resonance.

[Lord Morbid]

Hate to dredge up a dead horse,but I'm still pissed Gwen was killed off for absolutely no reason at all.It was an incredibly random and pointless death for a character that had loads of poential.