Nick Costanzo
Oct 8, 2007, 10:27 pm
* * * Comixfan Forums THREAD * * *
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THREAD : WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Started at Jun 28, 2007 11:51 am by Nick Costanzo
Visit at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=42425
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[Post 1]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : Jun 28, 2007 11:51 am
Title : WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
By Alan Lynch, shabbasnake@hotmail.com
Versus The Internet
I’m going to skip ahead for a second, because this is something I want to get off my chest. I’m going to assume that all my dreams (well, one of the really nerdy ones) have come true, and some of us managed to get friends interested in comics. We’ve taken them to our store of choice, we’ve talked them through some books we reckon they would enjoy, and we’ve actually encouraged them to buy a couple with their own money. It’s all going so well. And naturally, at some point you might want to encourage them to look some stuff up on their own. So where better than the internet, right? It’s the perfect source of information…
In theory.
One of the biggest problems that comic publishers (or their fans) encounter in seeking a wider degree of acceptance has nothing to do with the material itself. There’s an ugly stigma attached to this wonderful industry, this creative outlet truly unlike any other. I’m not the only one who’s experienced it; that awkward moment between the revelation that your chosen reading material comes with pictures and the first words from your companion’s mouth. What they say doesn’t matter – unless you spend a lot of time with tossers you won’t be outright insulted. Editor’s note: You might not want to spend a lot of time with me. No, the silence tells the story here. You know what they’re thinking.
“Comics? Aren’t they for kids and barely literate social outcasts?” Or words to that effect.
A lot of people will assume there’s something wrong with you for reading comics over a certain age. For many of them it comes from a position of total ignorance. It’s something they heard a friend say once and it stuck in their head. Others might have an idea of what they’re talking about. And I’m willing to bet the internet screwed us on this one.
Now, before you cuss me out for running down the internet in an online column – and we Brits do love our irony – let me explain that I’m not tarring everyone online with the same brush. I’ve been an active member on this site for years now, and can be found happily posting away elsewhere these days as well. I know there are good guys online, and I salute you all. The internet’s problem is that it brings together the sane and the…others…in many of the same places, and what usually happens here is that unless you’re one of the good posters you will, sadly, be marked with the same stigma as the lunatic fringe. And chances are that anyone reading this knows exactly the type of thing I’m talking about, because we’ve all had dealings with someone online who at some point took things a bit too far. Editor’s Note: That or you ARE the type who takes it too far… you know who you are.
There is some frightening behaviour on the internet, mostly stemming from overreactions which, if repeated in a verbal, “real world” setting, would likely result in police intervention. Tantrums, mud-slinging, threats, stereotyping, rivalry, moderator conspiracy theories… the internet loves that stuff. Unfortunately when “outsiders” look at an area like comic communities, these things tend to get most of the attention. I could point you to any number of forums for movies, TV and music where vitriol comes pouring off the screen from the first post onwards. But they have other outlets for people to center their focus. They have more mainstream outlets, and enjoy the acceptance which comes with that. Music fans flock to Glastonbury to hear bands in the mud and it becomes a cultural phenomenon. Comic fans attend conventions to have a book signed and they become nerds. It’s strange how the world works.
It’s this kind of culture that makes getting people into comics all the more difficult. So if someone comes online looking to see if this budding interest is worthwhile, they do so with a prejudiced mindset, like it or not. Any reinforcement of that, no matter how slight, could cement this prejudice and add another in the swelling numbers “against” comics. How best to combat this? Well, either keep your friends away from the internet (unlikely), or just be nice. Plain and simple. If you see an idiot online, if you find yourself getting riled up by the latest incoherent ramblings about how Emma Frost should take over the universe…be reasonable. If enough people do it, then the nonsense will eventually be drowned out by the intelligent conversation we all know is out there. It sounds really easy. Patronising, even; but it’s so easy to get involved in these things without taking the time to think, and once you fight back you just encourage the cycle. And in turn, indirectly, you add fuel to the already raging fire that is the “comics are for losers” mindset. Show how engaging comics can be by making each discussion you have as interesting as possible; show other people, newcomers and long-time fans alike, how worthy a medium this is by moving on from the belittling drivel that gives it a bad name.
Or failing that, make a knob joke. Everyone loves those.
Editor’s Note: He means doorknobs.
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Alan Lynch has never used the terms LOL, ROFL and OMG without being ironic. He does like smilies though :)
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The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.
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[Post 2]
Author : charm
Date : Jun 28, 2007 01:59 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
… you know who you are.
Names must be named :)
Ah, Alan, if only it was as simple as that. I've read too many threads where a perfectly good discussion has been derailed with an innocent post - thicker skins maybe in order, not to mention politeness. Personally, I think anonimity is at the root of many problems on the internet...but, there again, I hide behind it as well.
Charm
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[Post 3]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 28, 2007 02:13 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Names must be named :)
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Ah, Alan, if only it was as simple as that. I've read too many threads where a perfectly good discussion has been derailed with an innocent post - thicker skins maybe in order, not to mention politeness. Personally, I think anonimity is at the root of many problems on the internet...but, there again, I hide behind it as well.
Charm
Misinterpretation is always going to happen whenever people are talking through text alone. God, how easier my life would've been had the text message not been invented...I'm talking as much about the reacting to these things as I am the outright trolls. So we're both right - everyone needs to stop being dicks to each other online. Anonymity (anonimity?) probably plays a huge part though, I agree. If a poster knew the guy calling Cable a wuss - for instance ;) - was someone you had to deal with face to face tomorrow then they'd no doubt react differently than they do now. But there ain't a lot we can do about that. Until the future or something, when the internet is hardwired into our brains and we know exactly who we're talking to.
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[Post 4]
Author : Eric Travis
Date : Jun 28, 2007 02:50 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
It is not a phenomenon limited solely to comic books, of course. There are a wide range of topics for which people may feel passion and strong opinions, and the internet presents the opportunity to not only pass oneself off as an expert, but to have a hissyfit the moment someone else disagrees with one's opinions/beliefs/'facts'.
Whether it's the immature goobers on online games (F34R MY l337 SKILZ0RRZ n00b!!!) or the immature goobers on political blogs (Republicans are evil! Nuh-uh, Democrats are!) or the immature goobers on comic book forums (Dazzler sucks! Nuh-uh, Sage sucks!) or the immature goobers who focus on celebrities and TV shows, or the etc. etc....
The root of the problem is simply an overabundance of immature goobers.
(Note, that's not a comment on the age, only the attitude. I have had intelligent and rational discussions with numerous teenagers over the years, and I've seen men in their 40s get insulting, crass, and offensive when challenged about their area of 'expertise'.)
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[Post 5]
Author : Alan Bergin
Date : Jun 28, 2007 03:17 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I think I'd find myself contributing a lot more to the online community, if I was dealing with the type of poster that Alan is trying to encourage. This site in particular entices quite a few posters (young & old) to join-up, but for every decent newbie who comes here to talk about the X-Men, there's another 2 who sign-on to stir things up. These troublemakers can't be limited to kids either...I've seen plenty examples of more mature posters, setting out to antagonize. I really don't know what they're trying to achieve...
I like the cut of your jib, young Lynch. That was fun & all joking aside, made a heckuva lot of sense. I'd encourage everyone to take something from this piece.
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Apart from this bit. There'll be slaps for this.
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[Post 6]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 29, 2007 04:10 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
It is not a phenomenon limited solely to comic books, of course. There are a wide range of topics for which people may feel passion and strong opinions, and the internet presents the opportunity to not only pass oneself off as an expert, but to have a hissyfit the moment someone else disagrees with one's opinions/beliefs/'facts'.
Oh, they're everywhere. But with the exception of gaming, most other subjects which draw these goobers - good word, by the way - already have a mainstream acceptance which lets people dismiss the online lunatic fringe as a minority. We're all getting associated with the crazies though.
I think I'd find myself contributing a lot more to the online community, if I was dealing with the type of poster that Alan is trying to encourage. This site in particular entices quite a few posters (young & old) to join-up, but for every decent newbie who comes here to talk about the X-Men, there's another 2 who sign-on to stir things up. These troublemakers can't be limited to kids either...I've seen plenty examples of more mature posters, setting out to antagonize. I really don't know what they're trying to achieve...
I think this site actually has a decent bunch of posters now that we banned the worst offenders. Even CBR is getting fed up of that shower. Here most of the conversations I see going on are reasonably intelligent. So well done us.
Apart from this bit. There'll be slaps for this.
I remember Van Sciver's Vault sir. You need watching ;)
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[Post 7]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 29, 2007 05:38 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
The root of the problem is simply an overabundance of immature goobers.
This line just cracks me up. It just bears repeating for the tickle factor alone. :LOL:
I disagree with some of the points being made, however. Anonymity is important. What happens when someone speaks their mind and it costs them employment oppurtunity? What happens when someone is ostracized socially or professionally for their political views, or worse in some parts of the world? What happens to the counterweight, the check-and-balance that the internet provides against management/government/etc.? Anonymity encourages freedom of expression and the freedom of thought by extension, and that's a good thing. Sure, some people don't back themselves up (and in the real world, that would usually be taken as ribbing or heckling, verbal jibes rather than orchestrated arguements), but there's a place for that. The only thing we really should watch ourselves over is carrying what's said in a forum out into the real world. Sanity is important, not so much overwhelming civility. Don't turn a difference of opinion into a real world grudge.
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[Post 8]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : Jun 29, 2007 06:19 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I speak with my real name all the time, and if someone brought up comics when it comes to my job (nuclear engineer, just throwing it out cuz the cool factor will NEVER fade), first I'd laugh, then my manager would join in.
It's FREEING to use your real name. Empowering because your words carry so much more weight.
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[Post 9]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 30, 2007 05:39 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Y'know, you are a nuclear engineer, after all. I work (well, did and plan to after I'm healthy again) in the entertainment industry, and if I go out for a job with Marvel, the fact that I vehemently disagree with Q on numerous relevant issues or that I bristle at Bendis' dismissive attitude (seems to be doing better nowdays, hopefully from here out) and call him personally to task for it every once in a while, shouldn't cost me that job oppurtunity. I can tell you right now that I absolutely couldn't be nearly as honest as I am on the net if I had to give up anonymity. Now, face to face is another matter. Speaking face to face, it's far more unlikely my words and mores are going to be taken out of context, textual, factual, emotional or otherwise, and lead to begrudged decisions on anybody's part. On the net, expressing how I think might lose any and all appeal, and that benefits nobody.
Let's take it further. We know for a fact that there are numerous cases of individuals being ousted from college or rejected for job offers or fired based on their personal activities and stated preferences or political opinions in online forums, or the occasional picture that gets out that paints an image counter to what the employer is trying to cultivate. Employer personal background checks now routinely extend to the internet. There are even cases of lawsuits being applied to people over personal vendettas or offense percieved following internet posting. Also, what about those people who face incarceration if their opinion counters the state? That's the case in a good many places in the world. If someone's making real, serious death threats (the real lunatic fringe), sure, go after 'em, but otherwise? Why wouldn't that apply to comics, especially with the dialogue being as direct and personal as it is now? Anonymity protects those of us who participate in the debate in vulnerable positions, and all of us from outside collateral damage. The mere fact that the prospect of these things is present stifles debate in a nonanonymous atmosphere.
Lastly, what's more important to you? Is it the conceptual quality of the arguement or the speaker making that arguement? Anonymity favors the former. When a name is not attached to words, the arguement stands or falls on its own merits, and the free discourse sorts out the debris. When the name is applied, as you say, words are routinely given more or less weight depending on who the person is, not on what they're saying. Like the magicians in the field often point out in their stories, names have power. Strip that from the field and the statements must stand of their own strength. This encourages unstifled debate and a fluid exchange of ideas, while simultaneously sorting through the chaffe as a matter of process. This is far preferable to the alternative if you value such discourse.
It's not about courage. It's about real consequence, real imperfect people, and the discourse itself.
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[Post 10]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:22 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I've read instances online where people - using their real name or not - have been fired for things they've said. It's daft. But if someone wants to find out who you are, and have the resources to do it, then you'll get found. Name or no name.
I can see it from both sides. Some people aren't comfortable telling strangers their real name. Others think it gives your words a power which might not be there coming from someone called...Blobporn4U. For instance. I don't much care what you call yourself, as long as you aren't a dick. Too many people online are dicks, and lots of them have this freaky power to turn otherwise decent folks into dicks as well. It's annoying.
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[Post 11]
Author : T. Martin
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:33 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I've read instances online where people - using their real name or not - have been fired for things they've said. It's daft. But if someone wants to find out who you are, and have the resources to do it, then you'll get found. Name or no name.Yeah, but they'd have to try harder. Anonymity protects you against the sort of casual investigation an employer is likely to carry out early in a hiring process.
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[Post 12]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:41 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Yeah, but they'd have to try harder. Anonymity protects you against the sort of casual investigation an employer is likely to carry out early in a hiring process.
Without doubt. I'm just saying that it can happen is all. You or I - or smaller companies, quite possibly - couldn't do it. But a company the size of Marvel (to use cindercatz' example) could probably find out who he actually is if they were that way inclined. But you're right, there's definitely more protection from that kind of thing with fake names.
Maybe I'm just lucky - or lame - in that I've never been in a position where what I've said online could be an issue. It's not something I've ever been wary of.
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[Post 13]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 30, 2007 05:38 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I'm sure Marvel could find out who I am (just as an example), if they tried hard enough, at least as long as sites maintain a database of IPs for too long a period. I doubt they'd get it on a casual check, though. There is that level of protection. And beyond that, it's really up to the websites who have that information. How secure do they really want their posters to be? (to which, of course, I'd say a public forum should consider the privacy and security of their members first priority, but it's up to the sites) I remember a few years back, an artist working for Crossgen was fired for posting criticism of his company. It didn't exactly work to their benefit. (Don't worry Marvel, I'm not your employee. :LOL: )
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[Post 14]
Author : Janne Pietikainen
Date : Jul 1, 2007 06:26 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Great column, Alan, you made a great point once again!
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Alas it's true, an Alan is his own worst enemy. :giggle:
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[Post 15]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jul 1, 2007 07:10 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
And beyond that, it's really up to the websites who have that information. How secure do they really want their posters to be? (to which, of course, I'd say a public forum should consider the privacy and security of their members first priority, but it's up to the sites)
Absolutely. The only way private info about users should be released is if there's some legal reason compelling it. So cuss out potential employers all you like, but just don't start killing folks or something.
Alas it's true, an Alan is his own worst enemy. :giggle:
If 2 of us meet it causes some weird weather patterns. People have died.
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[Post 16]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jul 1, 2007 09:55 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Exactly right. :shhh:
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The messages has been download from Comixfan Forums at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums at 05.10.2007 08:24:21
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THREAD : WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Started at Jun 28, 2007 11:51 am by Nick Costanzo
Visit at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=42425
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[Post 1]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : Jun 28, 2007 11:51 am
Title : WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
By Alan Lynch, shabbasnake@hotmail.com
Versus The Internet
I’m going to skip ahead for a second, because this is something I want to get off my chest. I’m going to assume that all my dreams (well, one of the really nerdy ones) have come true, and some of us managed to get friends interested in comics. We’ve taken them to our store of choice, we’ve talked them through some books we reckon they would enjoy, and we’ve actually encouraged them to buy a couple with their own money. It’s all going so well. And naturally, at some point you might want to encourage them to look some stuff up on their own. So where better than the internet, right? It’s the perfect source of information…
In theory.
One of the biggest problems that comic publishers (or their fans) encounter in seeking a wider degree of acceptance has nothing to do with the material itself. There’s an ugly stigma attached to this wonderful industry, this creative outlet truly unlike any other. I’m not the only one who’s experienced it; that awkward moment between the revelation that your chosen reading material comes with pictures and the first words from your companion’s mouth. What they say doesn’t matter – unless you spend a lot of time with tossers you won’t be outright insulted. Editor’s note: You might not want to spend a lot of time with me. No, the silence tells the story here. You know what they’re thinking.
“Comics? Aren’t they for kids and barely literate social outcasts?” Or words to that effect.
A lot of people will assume there’s something wrong with you for reading comics over a certain age. For many of them it comes from a position of total ignorance. It’s something they heard a friend say once and it stuck in their head. Others might have an idea of what they’re talking about. And I’m willing to bet the internet screwed us on this one.
Now, before you cuss me out for running down the internet in an online column – and we Brits do love our irony – let me explain that I’m not tarring everyone online with the same brush. I’ve been an active member on this site for years now, and can be found happily posting away elsewhere these days as well. I know there are good guys online, and I salute you all. The internet’s problem is that it brings together the sane and the…others…in many of the same places, and what usually happens here is that unless you’re one of the good posters you will, sadly, be marked with the same stigma as the lunatic fringe. And chances are that anyone reading this knows exactly the type of thing I’m talking about, because we’ve all had dealings with someone online who at some point took things a bit too far. Editor’s Note: That or you ARE the type who takes it too far… you know who you are.
There is some frightening behaviour on the internet, mostly stemming from overreactions which, if repeated in a verbal, “real world” setting, would likely result in police intervention. Tantrums, mud-slinging, threats, stereotyping, rivalry, moderator conspiracy theories… the internet loves that stuff. Unfortunately when “outsiders” look at an area like comic communities, these things tend to get most of the attention. I could point you to any number of forums for movies, TV and music where vitriol comes pouring off the screen from the first post onwards. But they have other outlets for people to center their focus. They have more mainstream outlets, and enjoy the acceptance which comes with that. Music fans flock to Glastonbury to hear bands in the mud and it becomes a cultural phenomenon. Comic fans attend conventions to have a book signed and they become nerds. It’s strange how the world works.
It’s this kind of culture that makes getting people into comics all the more difficult. So if someone comes online looking to see if this budding interest is worthwhile, they do so with a prejudiced mindset, like it or not. Any reinforcement of that, no matter how slight, could cement this prejudice and add another in the swelling numbers “against” comics. How best to combat this? Well, either keep your friends away from the internet (unlikely), or just be nice. Plain and simple. If you see an idiot online, if you find yourself getting riled up by the latest incoherent ramblings about how Emma Frost should take over the universe…be reasonable. If enough people do it, then the nonsense will eventually be drowned out by the intelligent conversation we all know is out there. It sounds really easy. Patronising, even; but it’s so easy to get involved in these things without taking the time to think, and once you fight back you just encourage the cycle. And in turn, indirectly, you add fuel to the already raging fire that is the “comics are for losers” mindset. Show how engaging comics can be by making each discussion you have as interesting as possible; show other people, newcomers and long-time fans alike, how worthy a medium this is by moving on from the belittling drivel that gives it a bad name.
Or failing that, make a knob joke. Everyone loves those.
Editor’s Note: He means doorknobs.
<center><hr width=75%></center>
Alan Lynch has never used the terms LOL, ROFL and OMG without being ironic. He does like smilies though :)
<center><hr width=75%></center>
The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.
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[Post 2]
Author : charm
Date : Jun 28, 2007 01:59 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
… you know who you are.
Names must be named :)
Ah, Alan, if only it was as simple as that. I've read too many threads where a perfectly good discussion has been derailed with an innocent post - thicker skins maybe in order, not to mention politeness. Personally, I think anonimity is at the root of many problems on the internet...but, there again, I hide behind it as well.
Charm
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[Post 3]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 28, 2007 02:13 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Names must be named :)
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Ah, Alan, if only it was as simple as that. I've read too many threads where a perfectly good discussion has been derailed with an innocent post - thicker skins maybe in order, not to mention politeness. Personally, I think anonimity is at the root of many problems on the internet...but, there again, I hide behind it as well.
Charm
Misinterpretation is always going to happen whenever people are talking through text alone. God, how easier my life would've been had the text message not been invented...I'm talking as much about the reacting to these things as I am the outright trolls. So we're both right - everyone needs to stop being dicks to each other online. Anonymity (anonimity?) probably plays a huge part though, I agree. If a poster knew the guy calling Cable a wuss - for instance ;) - was someone you had to deal with face to face tomorrow then they'd no doubt react differently than they do now. But there ain't a lot we can do about that. Until the future or something, when the internet is hardwired into our brains and we know exactly who we're talking to.
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[Post 4]
Author : Eric Travis
Date : Jun 28, 2007 02:50 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
It is not a phenomenon limited solely to comic books, of course. There are a wide range of topics for which people may feel passion and strong opinions, and the internet presents the opportunity to not only pass oneself off as an expert, but to have a hissyfit the moment someone else disagrees with one's opinions/beliefs/'facts'.
Whether it's the immature goobers on online games (F34R MY l337 SKILZ0RRZ n00b!!!) or the immature goobers on political blogs (Republicans are evil! Nuh-uh, Democrats are!) or the immature goobers on comic book forums (Dazzler sucks! Nuh-uh, Sage sucks!) or the immature goobers who focus on celebrities and TV shows, or the etc. etc....
The root of the problem is simply an overabundance of immature goobers.
(Note, that's not a comment on the age, only the attitude. I have had intelligent and rational discussions with numerous teenagers over the years, and I've seen men in their 40s get insulting, crass, and offensive when challenged about their area of 'expertise'.)
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[Post 5]
Author : Alan Bergin
Date : Jun 28, 2007 03:17 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I think I'd find myself contributing a lot more to the online community, if I was dealing with the type of poster that Alan is trying to encourage. This site in particular entices quite a few posters (young & old) to join-up, but for every decent newbie who comes here to talk about the X-Men, there's another 2 who sign-on to stir things up. These troublemakers can't be limited to kids either...I've seen plenty examples of more mature posters, setting out to antagonize. I really don't know what they're trying to achieve...
I like the cut of your jib, young Lynch. That was fun & all joking aside, made a heckuva lot of sense. I'd encourage everyone to take something from this piece.
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Apart from this bit. There'll be slaps for this.
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[Post 6]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 29, 2007 04:10 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
It is not a phenomenon limited solely to comic books, of course. There are a wide range of topics for which people may feel passion and strong opinions, and the internet presents the opportunity to not only pass oneself off as an expert, but to have a hissyfit the moment someone else disagrees with one's opinions/beliefs/'facts'.
Oh, they're everywhere. But with the exception of gaming, most other subjects which draw these goobers - good word, by the way - already have a mainstream acceptance which lets people dismiss the online lunatic fringe as a minority. We're all getting associated with the crazies though.
I think I'd find myself contributing a lot more to the online community, if I was dealing with the type of poster that Alan is trying to encourage. This site in particular entices quite a few posters (young & old) to join-up, but for every decent newbie who comes here to talk about the X-Men, there's another 2 who sign-on to stir things up. These troublemakers can't be limited to kids either...I've seen plenty examples of more mature posters, setting out to antagonize. I really don't know what they're trying to achieve...
I think this site actually has a decent bunch of posters now that we banned the worst offenders. Even CBR is getting fed up of that shower. Here most of the conversations I see going on are reasonably intelligent. So well done us.
Apart from this bit. There'll be slaps for this.
I remember Van Sciver's Vault sir. You need watching ;)
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[Post 7]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 29, 2007 05:38 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
The root of the problem is simply an overabundance of immature goobers.
This line just cracks me up. It just bears repeating for the tickle factor alone. :LOL:
I disagree with some of the points being made, however. Anonymity is important. What happens when someone speaks their mind and it costs them employment oppurtunity? What happens when someone is ostracized socially or professionally for their political views, or worse in some parts of the world? What happens to the counterweight, the check-and-balance that the internet provides against management/government/etc.? Anonymity encourages freedom of expression and the freedom of thought by extension, and that's a good thing. Sure, some people don't back themselves up (and in the real world, that would usually be taken as ribbing or heckling, verbal jibes rather than orchestrated arguements), but there's a place for that. The only thing we really should watch ourselves over is carrying what's said in a forum out into the real world. Sanity is important, not so much overwhelming civility. Don't turn a difference of opinion into a real world grudge.
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[Post 8]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : Jun 29, 2007 06:19 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I speak with my real name all the time, and if someone brought up comics when it comes to my job (nuclear engineer, just throwing it out cuz the cool factor will NEVER fade), first I'd laugh, then my manager would join in.
It's FREEING to use your real name. Empowering because your words carry so much more weight.
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[Post 9]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 30, 2007 05:39 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Y'know, you are a nuclear engineer, after all. I work (well, did and plan to after I'm healthy again) in the entertainment industry, and if I go out for a job with Marvel, the fact that I vehemently disagree with Q on numerous relevant issues or that I bristle at Bendis' dismissive attitude (seems to be doing better nowdays, hopefully from here out) and call him personally to task for it every once in a while, shouldn't cost me that job oppurtunity. I can tell you right now that I absolutely couldn't be nearly as honest as I am on the net if I had to give up anonymity. Now, face to face is another matter. Speaking face to face, it's far more unlikely my words and mores are going to be taken out of context, textual, factual, emotional or otherwise, and lead to begrudged decisions on anybody's part. On the net, expressing how I think might lose any and all appeal, and that benefits nobody.
Let's take it further. We know for a fact that there are numerous cases of individuals being ousted from college or rejected for job offers or fired based on their personal activities and stated preferences or political opinions in online forums, or the occasional picture that gets out that paints an image counter to what the employer is trying to cultivate. Employer personal background checks now routinely extend to the internet. There are even cases of lawsuits being applied to people over personal vendettas or offense percieved following internet posting. Also, what about those people who face incarceration if their opinion counters the state? That's the case in a good many places in the world. If someone's making real, serious death threats (the real lunatic fringe), sure, go after 'em, but otherwise? Why wouldn't that apply to comics, especially with the dialogue being as direct and personal as it is now? Anonymity protects those of us who participate in the debate in vulnerable positions, and all of us from outside collateral damage. The mere fact that the prospect of these things is present stifles debate in a nonanonymous atmosphere.
Lastly, what's more important to you? Is it the conceptual quality of the arguement or the speaker making that arguement? Anonymity favors the former. When a name is not attached to words, the arguement stands or falls on its own merits, and the free discourse sorts out the debris. When the name is applied, as you say, words are routinely given more or less weight depending on who the person is, not on what they're saying. Like the magicians in the field often point out in their stories, names have power. Strip that from the field and the statements must stand of their own strength. This encourages unstifled debate and a fluid exchange of ideas, while simultaneously sorting through the chaffe as a matter of process. This is far preferable to the alternative if you value such discourse.
It's not about courage. It's about real consequence, real imperfect people, and the discourse itself.
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[Post 10]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:22 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I've read instances online where people - using their real name or not - have been fired for things they've said. It's daft. But if someone wants to find out who you are, and have the resources to do it, then you'll get found. Name or no name.
I can see it from both sides. Some people aren't comfortable telling strangers their real name. Others think it gives your words a power which might not be there coming from someone called...Blobporn4U. For instance. I don't much care what you call yourself, as long as you aren't a dick. Too many people online are dicks, and lots of them have this freaky power to turn otherwise decent folks into dicks as well. It's annoying.
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[Post 11]
Author : T. Martin
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:33 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I've read instances online where people - using their real name or not - have been fired for things they've said. It's daft. But if someone wants to find out who you are, and have the resources to do it, then you'll get found. Name or no name.Yeah, but they'd have to try harder. Anonymity protects you against the sort of casual investigation an employer is likely to carry out early in a hiring process.
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[Post 12]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jun 30, 2007 06:41 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Yeah, but they'd have to try harder. Anonymity protects you against the sort of casual investigation an employer is likely to carry out early in a hiring process.
Without doubt. I'm just saying that it can happen is all. You or I - or smaller companies, quite possibly - couldn't do it. But a company the size of Marvel (to use cindercatz' example) could probably find out who he actually is if they were that way inclined. But you're right, there's definitely more protection from that kind of thing with fake names.
Maybe I'm just lucky - or lame - in that I've never been in a position where what I've said online could be an issue. It's not something I've ever been wary of.
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[Post 13]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jun 30, 2007 05:38 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
I'm sure Marvel could find out who I am (just as an example), if they tried hard enough, at least as long as sites maintain a database of IPs for too long a period. I doubt they'd get it on a casual check, though. There is that level of protection. And beyond that, it's really up to the websites who have that information. How secure do they really want their posters to be? (to which, of course, I'd say a public forum should consider the privacy and security of their members first priority, but it's up to the sites) I remember a few years back, an artist working for Crossgen was fired for posting criticism of his company. It didn't exactly work to their benefit. (Don't worry Marvel, I'm not your employee. :LOL: )
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[Post 14]
Author : Janne Pietikainen
Date : Jul 1, 2007 06:26 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Great column, Alan, you made a great point once again!
I hear that Alan Bergin sort is a troublemaker. But you didn't get that from me.
Alas it's true, an Alan is his own worst enemy. :giggle:
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[Post 15]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : Jul 1, 2007 07:10 am
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
And beyond that, it's really up to the websites who have that information. How secure do they really want their posters to be? (to which, of course, I'd say a public forum should consider the privacy and security of their members first priority, but it's up to the sites)
Absolutely. The only way private info about users should be released is if there's some legal reason compelling it. So cuss out potential employers all you like, but just don't start killing folks or something.
Alas it's true, an Alan is his own worst enemy. :giggle:
If 2 of us meet it causes some weird weather patterns. People have died.
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[Post 16]
Author : cindercatz
Date : Jul 1, 2007 09:55 pm
Title : Re: WELCOME TO THE LIFE #2: VERSUS THE INTERNET
Exactly right. :shhh:
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The messages has been download from Comixfan Forums at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums at 05.10.2007 08:24:21