AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #545 REVIEW

[Jason Grasso]

<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=11537" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/previews/marvel/ASM545_colt.jpg" alt="Sensational Spider-Man #41" hspace=10 align=left></a> Reviewer: Jason Grasso, Desperad07@aol.com
Story Title: One More Day, Part 4

Marvel’s latest What If? story wipes out 20 years of continuity

Story: J. Michael Straczynski & Joe Quesada
Penciler: Joe Quesada
Inker: Danny Miki
Inks: Pages 23-31 Joe Quesada
Colorists: Richard Isanove with Dean White
Letterer: Chris Eliopoulos
Assistant Editor: Daniel Ketchum
Editor: Axel Alonso
Editor-in-Chief: Joe Quesada
Publisher: Dan Buckley
Published By: Marvel Comics (www.marvel.com)

BEWARE THE SPOILERS THAT LIE AHEAD!

Mephisto, while you’re at it, I have a few other things that I think should be erased from existence.

Well folks, it’s the end of an error. It’s likely few of you escaped the leaked rumors which seem to have been floating around for a few months now. I myself could not, though there was still a surprise appearance that either I or nobody else ever saw coming. Your unconfirmed fears and horrors now have an official seal of disproval.

The last part of One More Day picks up to the tune of Aunt May’s life ticking away. Perhaps the letterer slipped in some code regarding the inspiration for such a bad plot because I’m certain I’ve never heard a life support machine make a “Bong!” sound. Peter and MJ are wrestling with Mephisto’s deal, going through the emotions in darkness and shadows so that their artist could finish the issue a lot quicker.

I’m a little confused as to what happened to their one more day together. It seems they’ve jumped right into making a decision. We get three issues of build up to this and they basically take a few pages to say, ‘to hell with love, bring back the elderly’? Even within the realms of a bad plot, I at least could have appreciated the twisted irony of seeing the child that Peter and MJ will never have had the implication been that they just conceived said child on their last day together.

Because the gist of this deal is May’s life being taken away because of Peter’s identity, Mary Jane chimes in that May’s life would always be in danger with that little cat out of its bag. Mephisto quickly amends his deal to include stuffing that genie back into its bottle. And after two lovely spreads, with what could have been very touching moments in another context, Peter and MJ bid their love goodbye, knowing they will find each other again down the road when sales slip.

When Peter awakes to his brand new day, he jumps right back into his creepy relationship with Aunt May. The scene is littered with cheesy, overtly-affectionate dialogue, capped off with a kiss and a declaration of May’s cuteness from Peter. She even called him “Tiger.” Ick!<a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=11538"><img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/previews/marvel/ASM545_col-var_Markot.jpg" hspace=10 align=right alt="World Sensational Spider-Man #41 (variant)"></a> He’s off to a surprise gathering, which itself sets up his upcoming brand new continuity. In this new continuity, things between Peter and MJ are frosty but that’s okay because at least two obviously-potential love-interests arrive at this party….accompanied by Harry Osborn.

Harry Osborn died long before I started reading this section of the Marvel Universe but as a fan of comic book history, I could still understand the significance and impact of his death on the long-running Spider-Man saga. I imagine this has even more fans up in arms, kicking us while we’re already down (about the marriage issue). Quesada has insisted his issues with the marriage were that they made Peter Parker seem older than he should be, but by bringing back Harry, it seems like this was more about sending the Spider-Man titles back to a different time and sensibility.

It’s insulting to the audience to essentially negate decades of material for what amounts to a reboot wrapped around a marriage. Not only are we essentially throwing away a major stitch in the history of one of the most significant comic book icons in the history of the medium, which in and of itself is blasphemy towards a multitude of creators more legendary than the pairing that delivered this steaming pile of retcon. But we are also expected to accept the retcon of Peter’s identity getting stuffed right back into its secret jar. That revelation had a massive impact on the flow of Civil War, the ramifications of which are still playing out over a number of current titles. You can’t simply pull this thread out of the fabric of the Marvel Universe expecting it to have no affect on any other character or event. It was a significant turning point in Civil War, both to the story itself and in Marvel’s marketing. So it’s audacious on every level to pull this stunt. You can’t pull a marriage off the table and in doing so bring back a character from decades-long death, but then turn around and tell me that making Peter’s identity secret again has no affect on current events.

And what of Spider-Man’s own complicated history? With Harry alive, how many past tales are now deleted or changed, and what ramifications would this have on other corners of the Marvel Universe, where Harry’s father has been an antagonistic beyond just Spider-Man. Among other past items returned, they’ve also gone ahead and given Peter back his web-shooters, negating a development that happened under the current Spider-Man regime! So not only is Marvel changing long-cherished history but also too much of its own recent history. Whether or not you hated the introduction of organic web-shooters, you can at least respect them for trying to sell the idea to us as part of a story. How much of JMS’ run (lauded on the last page with ego-patting quotes from legends and colleagues) is even part of this new Spider-Man continuity? Suddenly, it seems that I’ve been reading the Spider-Man version of Exiles.

Marvel is setting a dangerous precedent with this event. Already they’ve wiped a number of significant deaths off the board, and some very quickly. And now with the revelation that Skrulls have infiltrated the ranks of our heroes, anytime a character seems to be acting uncharacteristically, or “skrully,” it could very well be that it’s not the character you know and love. Unfortunately, this deprives the tension from mortality. For example, a good number of fans doubt that Captain America will stay dead for long. Ed Brubaker needs people to believe that for his stories to have the proper amount of dramatic tension. But events in other corners of the sandbox that he plays in, have a direct impact on his stories. This is the new Marvel. When a writer shakes up things too much and the company wants a redo, they can go to Mephisto or the Skrulls. Marvel has made its bed, but it may not always choose to lie in it. They’ll save their lying for the readers.

OVERALL:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spifull.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/reviews/spinone.jpg

Unlike MJ, X-World makes purchasing decisions easier. Buy Amazing Spider-Man #545 online now and save! (http://x-worldcomics.com/yourvirtualstore/shopexd.asp?id=24893)

[Phil Hunn]

I think you were a little too generous, mate.

This pathetic mess deserves nothing. Not a damn thing. I still can't believe Quesada has the guts to tell us that Brand New Rerun is going to be a brilliant new start...

[fatherjeff]

Two words for this whole debacle...CLONE SAGA.

[Jared Oberholtzer]

You know, I never really jumped on the "OMGZ JOE Q. SUXX HE HAS 2 LEAVE :bite:" bandwagon before...but this is a little ridiculous. And it does make me think that Joe's gotta go so they can put some fresh blood in that EiC chair. Fresh blood that is actually creative and doesn't need to resort to "Crisis"-style continuity wipeouts.

I just thank God he has not tried to pull a stunt like this with the X-Men or I would be flipping :bleep:.

[citizenx]

Luckily I don't read ASM these days, but I think something like this really undermines other stories like the Death of Captain America. Spider-Man has always been one of the great every man street heroes but not we get some contrived magical reboot. So why isn't Tony Stark hunting down Mephisto to bring back Steve Rogers in exchange for his sobriety? Isn't a drunk Iron Man more fun anyway?

I don't even mind the marriage ending (though I find it unnecessary), but I do feel insulted as a comic fan that this kind of awful storytelling is not only making the cut, but is coming from the EiC. Note the editors: Leave the writing to the writers!

Unfortunately, as I was saying in the OMD thread, most of the people complaining will still continue to buy ASM instead of dropping it and branching out into well crafted books that are ending up cancelled because no one reads them.

You know, I never really jumped on the "OMGZ JOE Q. SUXX HE HAS 2 LEAVE :bite:" bandwagon before...but this is a little ridiculous. And it does make me think that Joe's gotta go so they can put some fresh blood in that EiC chair. Fresh blood that is actually creative and doesn't need to resort to "Crisis"-style continuity wipeouts.

I just thank God he has not tried to pull a stunt like this with the X-Men or I would be flipping :bleep:.

I also never jumped on the JQ haters bandwagon, still won't really (he's done a lot of good things), but lately it is starting to get a bit shaky with the way things are going with Spider-Man and the Ultimate Universe and Squadron Supreme.

I don't even mind Crisis reboots, but they need to be universe wide and be excellent stories in themselves.

And House of M was pretty damn close to this kind of stunt with the X-Men. It was basically JQ trying to bring the franchise back to what he feels to be the good old days.

[Marty P]

Well folks, it’s the end of an error.

Funny, but sadly true..... :sick:


I can only hope that people who said they'd drop this book, will drop this book. It's the fastest way to retcon this crap.

I can totally understand why the writer wanted his name off the credits.
I think he might regret being convinced not to do so.

[Phil Hunn]

And House of M was pretty damn close to this kind of stunt with the X-Men. It was basically JQ trying to bring the franchise back to what he feels to be the good old days.

And that's exactly why he needs to go. He's not dealing with the books as they are now, he's deliberately warping them back into his childhood comics, as if that's what today's readers want.

[J.E.S]

Joe Quesada always said in interviews that he didn't like the Peter / MJ marriage... so he presses the delete button on 20+ years of continuity.

Bravo... the Spider-Man I grew up with, the one I read my entire life has now been striken from the record.

Well, here comes the backlash... I wonder how long before they fix this

[Robert Cammarata]

this is so disappointing.

i can't even remember reading a spider-man story that didn't have a married spiderman. Change is good but massive continuity altering change every few months for a single character reeks of desperation and not knowing how to handle the character.

I'm happy I get to read a dan slott spiderman next month but i didn't want it at this expense.

[Jos1988]

wow. this storyline was my "one last shot" on whether or not to stick with the current series' of the web slinger. guess im now saving a couple more quid per month. shame though. i grew up on spidey stories.

[Arrogantcur]

I wrestled with reading this review for a second, since I hadn't yet bought the issue. Then I said "screw it, I'm looking at how many Spidey masks he rated it. If it's bad, then what I was worried about happened, and I'm gonna read the review and not buy the book."

So, now I've read it. I am disgusted. I'm not gonna buy the issue, and I'm not gonna buy any more issues of ASM (which is now the only Spidey book out there, I guess) until the status quo is restored.

While Peter and MJ might get back together sooner or later, they probably won't get married anytime soon. Maybe Quesada figures "that way, the people who liked Peter and MJ together will be happy, and I'll be happy because he's single again." Not quite, Joe. I will not forget this, I won't forget that you said ":bleep: what the fans want, this is what I want." I want them married again, and nothing less is gonna mollify me.

Not only am I not buying this last issue of OMD, I'm not buying any more issues of ASM. I am dropping the damn book.

I like Harry and I'm not disappointed that he's back, but this is too high of a price to pay for it. Plus, as Jason points out, you can't change Spider-Man's history without changing pretty much the entire Marvel Universe, because otherwise it just doesn't make sense.

[gothix]

And that's exactly why he needs to go. He's not dealing with the books as they are now, he's deliberately warping them back into his childhood comics, as if that's what today's readers want.

That's how I feel. The comics were great back in the good old days but to just back track can kill everything. Comics have to change or they will get dropped. Wasn't this the same thing the clone saga tried to do. Change Spidey so he was single.

the thing is the reboot wouldn't have bothered me if it was just Peter and MJ's marriage that was wiped. All the other changes are annoying cause they pretty much wipe out every Spider-Man comic story from the time I got into Marvel comics. I don' see how all this can be changed and just be ignored in New Avengers. I think the whole Marvel Universe would be changed from all these changes.

I guess it doesn't matter as I've only picked up a few Spider-Man stories since the end of the clone saga.

I was going to buy the trade for this but now I'll just hope my library gets it. I have to read it at least before I fully judge it.

[cyborgspider]

baffling... simply baffling.

i'm all for a great supporting cast, but why retread old water? harry osborn is the only best friend spidey can ever have? and how could you possibly justify MJ dragging spidey mythos down while Aunt May entrenches her ancient claws into Peter's life ("my aunt is in danger! she can never find out! i'd better crawl through the back window before she starts making her wheat cakes! jeepers!") gawd. i'd be okay with a marriage split if they could just kill of that geezer and not bring back the 70s>

[Jesse Baer]

Great review, but I would have been looking for a way to give it negative points. I've loved Straczynski's run, bought all the trades that he wrote, and I've at least tried to read all of the Spider-Man sister series, and now I'm done. Sorry to the new writers, but I hope Amazing Spider-Man absolutely tanks in sales, the first time I've ever wished bad upon a comic. It's such a shame that Straczynski had to end his brilliant run on this note.

[AC-WEB]

Dear Joe,
I'm just one fan writing to you about my concern of the current direction of Spider-Man. I'm just one fan who has every Spider-Man book from 200 on, and now you have turned my favorite comic book character into something that I'm ashamed, disgusted, and mad about... a farce. You made him make a deal with the devil, freakin Mephisto himself. Spider-Man, who was always good at heart is now tainted forever. You have effectivley made all my backissue worthless, which I used to reread with frequency, but can no longer do that without being reminded of this OMD and BND that you have forced upon the Spider-Man books. Yeah it took a lot of balls to do what you did, but it does not make it right. If you don't believe me check out the poll at: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141208 Sure I might be overly upset about a fictional comic character, but it is a character that I have loved since early in my life, and one that I am finding I don't love
so much after this. I ask you to fix this, and hopefully fix this before it drags on too long. This is truly not the way to deal with Spider-man in the marriage. Have the courage to admit you are wrong or you will see the Spider-man fan base dwindle, maybe to a point where it might not recover. Hopefully you have the guts to do what is right.

Sincerely,
AC-WEB

[Peaches Valentine]

Great review, but I would have been looking for a way to give it negative points. I've loved Straczynski's run, bought all the trades that he wrote, and I've at least tried to read all of the Spider-Man sister series, and now I'm done. Sorry to the new writers, but I hope Amazing Spider-Man absolutely tanks in sales, the first time I've ever wished bad upon a comic. It's such a shame that Straczynski had to end his brilliant run on this note.

From what I can gather, the majority of the Spider-Man fandom is tangential on that idea. I can't say I'm not in agreement either. It was a stupid, contrived, childish and selfish thing that Joe Q did to Spider-Man continuity.

He always said there were two camps on the subject, representing half the fanbase, respectively. One for the marriage, one against. I have yet to come across a large, or even vocal, group against the marriage.

I don't know Spider-Man anymore. The Peter I grew up with (I'm 21) is gone, back to the way he was before me. Working at a comic store, I know plenty of people older than me that are in a similar camp, that all that time and money they spent reading about this character that they loved and seeing him grow and change. It's not unlike having a long term friend or close family member at some point, the way we watch these characters become who they are and what they represent, from origin to existence to achievement. Ironically, it's the same as when they said that Spider-Man was the clone and Norman had switched the files. Even then, that was at least in continuity. At least they tried without this farcical garbage. This is from the Clone Saga, something Joe Q has been adamant about keeping quiet and ignoring in his tenure, but clearly hasn't learned any lessons from.

I was insulted by the part that said "I am the child you will never have." Never have? What about already have, Joe? He's creating a continuity that he can relate to and ignoring the questions and plot holes that everyone else has questions about. He's basically saying that his vision of the character is better than mine, and I take exception to that.

What JMS did for the character initially was secure the MJ relationship without resorting to retcon, and actually developed the May relationship with her finding out about his secret. What he didn't do was have a larger cast, relying on his closer family and not so much on older friends. But you know what? That was okay. MJ and May should be the most important supporting characters. Yeah, I wish Flash and some of the older characters had been around more, but many JMS stories (especially with JR JR) were fantastic. Now they just...didn't happen. Some were awful *cough*Sins Past*cough*, but I would submit the majority ranged from entertaining to really incredible.

Boo, Joe Quesada. I do not appreciate your lack of creativity.

[MrMizzarc]

It is funny, i am not a Spiderman fan, well in the sense, i don't buy his books, except Avengers, which really isn't his book. I do like the character and think he is pretty cool. I have read most of the big events that happened in his book the last few years, but didn't pick up the books regularly. Mainly because the Marvel Universe is supposed to be a much tigher place where things that happen in one book affect the other books. So obviously as a Marvel Fan I would buy this book.

So i waited until i got all four books to read them and read them all in one sitting. After they agreed to be divorced the first thing i thought of was, How does this affect the Avengers? Since he is a fairly main character in the book? Does this erase Civil War and House of M?Does this mean Mutants are going to pop up all over the place? Is this a set up for the Skrull invasion to just erase years of Marvel History? These are all the things going through my mind as a non spider man reader.

To me it seems incredibablly short sited to do something like this. You can't change a flagship characters history without, affecting your flagship team book in the process? If i was a spider man fan, i think i would be Highly upset. I don't see how any long time fan could support this any longer. I thought what hey did in House of M was bad... but at least all the history stayed intact.

Honestly i was thinking of jumping back into spider man after this change, I did with Avengers after they started that book all over. We all know that is Marvels intent to bring in new readers, but is it really a good idea to slap every since one of your old readers in the face, since they are really the ones keeping the books alive. I don't know, but I know Marvel just lost a potentially Spiderman Reader for a really long time.

Can someone answer me this, in this thread, someone mentioned that JMS didn't want his name on this story. Did i read that correctly, or did i misunderstand what you guys were saying? If he did say that, do you have a link to an article or something i can look over, or explain what happened?

[Radiate]

CBR are doing a number of interviews with JQ about this, so it'll be itneresting to see why JMS originally wanted his name off the last issue...

Anyways, personally it's an interesting change. I'm actually quite excited about the upcoming Brand New Day with a new rogues gallery and new supporting cast. I do agree that Spidey's supporting cast of late has been crap but throwing in new characters seems to be a good bet. But ending the marriage...? I dunno, it's like when Cyclops and Jean Grey split up. I just KNOW they're destined for each other so what next?

Who knows? Maybe this is all a smokescreen like the Iron-Spider outfit and this will only be cannon for a year?

RADIATE!

[Arrogantcur]

First off: Peaches, well said. :clap:

Who knows? Maybe this is all a smokescreen like the Iron-Spider outfit and this will only be cannon for a year?

Even if it is, even if this was meant to be temporary from the beginning, I hate that we are being put through it.

If it was meant to be permanent, well...this is the third time, to my knowledge, that the couple has been torn apart during JQ's tenure as EiC. He should take the friggin' hint and stop trying.

Yeah, I want the book to tank. I want it less now that I know that PAD will be writing an arc of BND, but only a little less. Any lackluster sales are not going to reflect badly on Mr. David, but on the...oh damn, it is SO hard to avoid creator bashing here...individual who engineered this change in the first place. That ain't PAD, and that ain't Dan Slott.

(Speaking of PAD, I read in the comments on his site that there's a YouTube video of a fan wiping his ass with ASM #545. I haven't seen it yet and don't have the link, but if you wanna look for it, it's there.)

You can’t pull a marriage off the table and in doing so bring back a character from decades-long death...

Harry actually died in 1993, so it's more like a "decade and a half" long death.

[Radiate]

Yeah i know but imagine what the Speedball fans went through every time Joe Q said he was gonna kill him off lol. The more i think about it the more this whole thing reeks of soemthing suspicious...

I mean, think about it JMS and Joe Q have always had a good relationship up until recently about the decision to break Peter and MJ apart. But JMS MUST'VE known when getting into OMD that this was the outcome...so why all of a sudden does he want his name to be taken off the last 2 issues?

Plus Joe Q's reputation of fanning the flames and being deliberately provocative in order to get reactions adds fuel to my flame: that this is all deliberate. I reckon the JMS/Joe Q disagreement is a stunt. I also think that getting rid of the marriage is just a way for Joe Q to make sure fans really appreciate it. Who knows, i might be talking crazy but some things just don't quite add up...

RADIATE!

[Phil Hunn]

(Speaking of PAD, I read in the comments on his site that there's a YouTube video of a fan wiping his ass with ASM #545. I haven't seen it yet and don't have the link, but if you wanna look for it, it's there.)

Behold! A fan who is now a legend to us all!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PjN0ThpswRc

[Kevin Jones]

Count me among the fans who are dropping Spidey after this. Not an idle threat, more like my two cents to contribute to the big picture. I don't think the people who are saying they'll drop will secretly keep buying it. I think a ton of us will be gone, period. And no amount of dealing with Mephisto will change that ;)

[BlingstonHughes]

Hmm, so since MJ and Pete never got married, Harry didn't take the Goblin formula and die? Is that what we're supposed to be concluding from that? I'm so confused.

Retconning the unmasking a mere matter of months (nice alliteration, 3x bonus) after CW just shatters the entire Civil War series. Think about it. Spider-Man unmasking was a huge show of support for the SHRA from the superhuman community. That act alone brought a lot of attention to it and influenced a number of characters to register (presumably). Removing that from history would alter the outcome of the entire event. Not to mention, had Pete never married MJ, he wouldn't have moved into Stark Tower, teamed up with Stark, joined the supporters, etc. And that's just the one event being influenced because of that one change.

It wouldn't be as bad if the marriage ending was actually in continuity. You can move forward and still have the same outcome. I'm waiting for JQ to say that the 9/11 issue (one of my favorites) didn't happen and that Al Queda didn't attack because Spidey wasn't married. If Pete and MJ are married, the terrorists win.

It's so cheesy how they handled the mask genie. "But everyone will still know who he is?" "Oh, you're right. Well, I'll throw that one in for free." *Poof* Not to mention that little girl. It reeked of Joe Q saying "I'm tired of people asking about that kid. Since we're bringing people back to life and changing years worth of stories, can we just wipe that one out too?" To which Mephisto says "Done." *Poof*

[Phil Hunn]

Hmm, so since MJ and Pete never got married, Harry didn't take the Goblin formula and die? Is that what we're supposed to be concluding from that?

Evidently so. Don't you realise that Spidey marrying MJ was, like, the one event that totally destroyed the character? :rolleyes:

[Jason Grasso]

C'mon now folks, the issue deserved at least one spidey rating!

You know, for Jim Shooter and Dave Michelinie's story and Paul Ryan's pencils in the Special Wedding Issue backup story ;)

[BlingstonHughes]

Those backups just upset me even more. The May entry just felt like someone said "Look at all the history behind this character. Aren't you glad she's still around?" The best thing May's done in the last few decades was hook up with Doc Ock, find out about Pete being Spidey, and dying. That's it, and most of those are retconned away, so now all she's got going for her is a mean batch of pancakes.

That wedding story seemed kinda snarky too. Was that Joe's way of rubbing our noses in it?

[the_captain_smiley]

That wedding story seemed kinda snarky too. Was that Joe's way of rubbing our noses in it?

Yes, yes it was.

[Kevin Jones]

Come to think of it, is Spidey still in the New Avengers? Are we supposed to believe that everything that's happened in the last two NA storylines happened before Brand New Day? I can't even begin to see how that works out. I challenge anyone to come up with a timeline of how these events unfolded. Were Aunt May and Mary Jane waiting out in that hotel room during the entire Hand and Hood stories?

[Greg Reeves]

Come to think of it, is Spidey still in the New Avengers? Are we supposed to believe that everything that's happened in the last two NA storylines happened before Brand New Day? I can't even begin to see how that works out. I challenge anyone to come up with a timeline of how these events unfolded. Were Aunt May and Mary Jane waiting out in that hotel room during the entire Hand and Hood stories?
Well, the problem there is that Peter only put on the Black costume after Aunt May was shot. Plus, he only wore it for what boiled down to like one night while he tracked down Fisk, then changed into his standard red/blue garb.

So yeah, it doesn't work at all.

[Allison Wright]

Wow. Well, I was only an intermittant spiderman reader, but guess I'm done now.

[BlingstonHughes]

This doesn't really fix the problem that was the Sins Past storyline. If the only thing Mephisto altered was the MJ relationship and the unmasking, then presumably Harry still used drugs (as evident by the fact that he was just released from rehab), which means he still could have potentially overdosed, which means Gwen could still have come back and knocked Normie's boots. JQ missed a spot of continuity while he was sweeping it all under the rug.

[Peaches Valentine]

This doesn't really fix the problem that was the Sins Past storyline. If the only thing Mephisto altered was the MJ relationship and the unmasking, then presumably Harry still used drugs (as evident by the fact that he was just released from rehab), which means he still could have potentially overdosed, which means Gwen could still have come back and knocked Normie's boots. JQ missed a spot of continuity while he was sweeping it all under the rug.

Ah, but that little bit of continuity was Joe Q's doing to begin with! When JMS wrote that story, he wanted the kids to be Peter's, but Joe said "No, no! Make them Normans!" Because, y'know, it would be completely out of the question for two kids, in college, in love, to accidentally get pregnant. It's even more unbelievable that the girl--naive and innocent--would freak out and have the children without Peter knowing. And on top of all that his arch nemesis raises them to be spider-killers? No...that would make no sense at all.

So instead he effectively made Gwen an easily manipulated harlot, and he made Norman what amounts to something close to a statutory rapist. Well done, Joe. Well done indeed.

[Bernard Murnane]

I love bring Harry back. Love... Love... Love it!

I don't like the way it was done. Boring expository writing. Sad retconning. Its just a little toooooo much.

[Radiate]

For anyone interested Joe Q says over in CBR something that implies that the past 20-30 years of Spidey stories AREN'T redundant:

"Also, the science that Joe was going to apply to the retcon of the marriage would have made over 30 years of Spider-Man books worthless, because they never would have had happened. We would have also had a "Crisis" in the Marvel Universe because it would have reset way too many things outside of the Spider-Man titles. We just couldn't go there and in the end we weren't expecting that kind of story."

Take of it what you will.

RADIATE!

[Phil Hunn]

For anyone interested Joe Q says over in CBR something that implies that the past 20-30 years of Spidey stories AREN'T redundant:

"Also, the science that Joe was going to apply to the retcon of the marriage would have made over 30 years of Spider-Man books worthless, because they never would have had happened. We would have also had a "Crisis" in the Marvel Universe because it would have reset way too many things outside of the Spider-Man titles. We just couldn't go there and in the end we weren't expecting that kind of story."

Heh. What bollocks. 30 years of Spider-history HAVE been made worthless.

This is like the AoA "anniversary" (that dreck was apparently the best pitch that Marvel got). I'd have hated to see what the alternative was...

[heffy]

well I guess I'm going to be saving money now since I am officially dropping Amazing spiderman.

Too bad this couldnt have been some dream or night mare.

I guess I better pinch myself as well.

I'll save money now. and I guess I'll catch spiderman in New Avengers. Unless that goes over there too :(

[Marty P]

I'll save money now. and I guess I'll catch spiderman in New Avengers. Unless that goes over there too :(
I don't see how that can not be....they are the same Peter Parker.

[Arrogantcur]

I finally read the Quesada interviews (the first two of five in all) at CBR and it makes me wanna creator bash so badly.

JQ:

Sometimes when I look at the way that the lines of opinion have been drawn in comics about the marriage, I see the argument falling into two basic camps. The fans may not perceive it this way on the surface, but it is what's happening when you look at it clearly. When we fall in love with these characters, we claim ownership over them in our own way; so for some fans, Peter belongs to them and no one else. So, the way I see it, there are two sides of the argument, two segments of fans. On one side, there is a contingency of fandom that wants Peter to age along with them and live life as they do. He needs to get married, have kids, then grandkids, and then the inevitable. One the other side, there are fans that realize Spidey needs to be ready for the next wave or generation of readers, that no one can lay claim to these icons, no one generation has ownership and that we need to preserve them and keep them healthy for the next batch of readers to fall in love with.

To me, only one side of this argument is correct. If Spidey grows old and dies off with our readership, then that's it -- he'll be done and gone, never to be enjoyed by future comic fans. If we keep Spidey rejuvenated and relatable to fans on the horizon, we can manage to do that and still keep him enjoyable to those that have been following his adventures for years. Will everyone be happy with the decision? No, of course not, but that's what makes it a horserace. At the end of the day, my job is to keep these characters fresh and ready for every fan that walks through the door, while also planning for the future and hopefully an even larger fan base.

Why you.... :grind:

Please let me bash. Please. CUR BASH!!!

For now I will have to be content with pointing out how he is WRONG.

He says that the camp who is for the marriage wants Peter to age along with them, wants Peter to graduate college when they graduate, get a job when they get a job, get married when they do, have a kid when they do, be middle-aged when they are, etc.

No, we don't, you (censored)! My God, he is making out everybody who disagrees with him to be so selfish it's insulting. He says we're like "I want Peter to be doing everything I am at the same time I am."

What we want, Mr. Quesada, is for Peter to grow. Slowly. You know the rate at which he went from being a teenager to whatever his current age is? That is FINE. Eventually, after maybe another 50 to 100 years, you're right: enough "Marvel Universe" time will have passed that he be too old to be Spider-Man any more. Now if the character's still around by then, what's the solution? Pass the damn mantle on to somebody younger.

There has been more than one Flash (the fast guy, not Thompson). There has been more than one Green Lantern. While I consider Steve Rogers the only true Captain America there has been more than one of him as well, and if the new guy turns out to be Bucky then I would accept him as worthy to have the shield even while wanting Rogers back. There has also been, as one Stanley Lui pointed out, a number of different Iron Men. Somewhere down the line, there can be a Spider-Man who isn't Peter Parker. But at the rate he's aging, choosing a successor won't become a problem for a long, long time.

We're not asking that Peter age along with us, Quesada. We're asking that he continue to age slowly, continue his career as a superhero, and do it with the supporting cast that we've all grown to love over the years. We want the story that began in Amazing Fantasy #15 to continue indefinitely, instead of being rebooted. Sometimes one of the supporting cast is going to die, like Gwen or Harry or either character named May, and that's never pleasant because we liked those characters. But we manage, usually. MJ is an exception. MJ is a character that we want to stay alive almost as much as we want Peter to stay alive, because she has been almost as much the star of these stories as he has.

[Marty P]

Why you.... :grind:

Please let me bash. Please. CUR BASH!!!
Using this part of your post as a general reminder for everyone: Please don't. I know most are itching to throw out what you really want to say (trust me, I feel the same way), but please keep it in tone.

For now I will have to be content with pointing out how he is WRONG.
And you do that quite well! Great reply.


JQ really just doesn't understand Marvel Heroes at all.



How long is he still EIC? It was renewed for another 4 years IIRC, but when are those 4 years up?

[Alphabet Pet]

He says that the camp who is for the marriage wants Peter to age along with them, wants Peter to graduate college when they graduate, get a job when they get a job, get married when they do, have a kid when they do, be middle-aged when they are, etc.

No, we don't, you (censored)! My God, he is making out everybody who disagrees with him to be so selfish it's insulting. He says we're like "I want Peter to be doing everything I am at the same time I am."

What we want, Mr. Quesada, is for Peter to grow. Slowly. You know the rate at which he went from being a teenager to whatever his current age is? That is FINE. Eventually, after maybe another 50 to 100 years, you're right: enough "Marvel Universe" time will have passed that he be too old to be Spider-Man any more. Now if the character's still around by then, what's the solution? Pass the damn mantle on to somebody younger.



Or here's another idea. It's CRAZY, but, please, bare with me!

The other thing they could do, is continue writing Spider-man married and not going retcon crazy, let the character continue aging slowly. And while they're doing that they could start another Spider-man book, set in another similar, but ULITMATEly different universe where they could portray him as being a single teenager again. Then both groups of fans get what they want. I know, you all think I'm mad, but hey, maybe it could work.

But, hey don't worry. Mephisto will just turn out to be a skrull and in a few issues Peter and MJ will figure out they know they're married and there was no reality warping spell. They've just been going along with it, suspending their disbelief.

[Rain]

JQ really just doesn't understand Marvel Heroes at all.



How long is he still EIC? It was renewed for another 4 years IIRC, but when are those 4 years up?

Joe Q's days as EIC are over when he chooses to leave, his run as EIC has been very positive for Marvel to say the least and it is very unlikely that sales could drop to the point where Marvel or Joe himself thought it was time to reconsider his position

[citizenx]

Or he could have all the heroes age and maybe die and then reboot the whole universe via magic or something else. Why he would say that death would be the end of Spider-Man comics makes no sense when OMD consists of a major character coming back from the dead and another being spared death via magic. Not to mention that Captain America has been dead nearly a year and that comic is as good as ever. Then there's the dozens of comic characters who've died and come back. I'm not a JQ hater, but some of that interview is incredibly condesending which is very unfortunate.

[Radiate]

JQ really just doesn't understand Marvel Heroes at all.





Hmm...While i disagree with what Joe Q has done to Peter and MJ's marriage, i do have to disagree with you. I think JQ does understand the majority of Marvel Heroes...or rather he has good faith in the writers and artists he employs to write these Heroes, showing that he understands Marvel Heroes. It's just that, sometimes lightning doesn't strike twice and he gets some heroes wrong! :dunno:

RADIATE!

[BlingstonHughes]

I think JQ does understand the majority of Marvel Heroes...or rather he has good faith in the writers and artists he employs to write these Heroes, showing that he understands Marvel Heroes.


He has faith in his writers and artists, until he has an idea for a character, one of the flagship characters of the entire line, and that's when the EIC hat comes on. Between Sins Past, organic webshooters, Back in Black, unmasking, and OMD (not necessarily in that order), it was very clear that there was an agenda set for Pete, one that we might call editorially mandated.

It's a little sad to think what might have been on JMS's run if he hadn't been influenced by events and movie releases. But, these are Marvel's toys, and though it might be cool to strap a firework to one of those toys to see something new and cool, they've gotta be put back on the shelf at the end of the day.

[Peaches Valentine]

Regarding the quote that Cur posted:

I think it goes beyond two camps. There are numerous factions of Spider-Fans, and while I'm sure that there is a certain faction that wants Peter to grow in real time, I would give it a 99% majority that really, really doesn't. If there was a real movement for this, he would have aged more than 9 (or so) years since 1962. At this point, that's about 2 years per decade. Not tons of aging going on there.

To this point, no one has complained about his age. Not in any real fashion, anyhow. And it would be stupid to do so--he's the 'kid' of the Marvel U, and in that role he has to stay under a certain age. But does that mean that we have to regress almost two decades of character development? I don't think so. You can retain a character's essence while developing him. In fact, to take a somewhat condescending stance, anyone in agreement with what they did is foolish for allowing an immense amount of characterization to go completely to waste. Under thirty is perfect for Spider-Man. Older readers can still relate having lived through that time in their lives, and younger readers can still identify with him being an age fairly close to him. Under thirty and married--TO A SUPERMODEL--is a fantasy. One that would be quite amazing, at that. He lives the life we all want to live: adventurous, dramatic, triumphant; there's something about Spider-Man that appeals to people on a basic level, and no amount of continuity is going to change that. In fact, what Joe Q did only hurt us by flattening the character into something a little less relatable. Now he's almost thirty and living in a what can only be described as 'odd' living arrangement with his elderly aunt.

Is it really selfish to want to see a character develop? I'm offended at the assertion. Isn't character development what makes superhero comics great? You can learn and grow with a character over a lifetime, something that can only be done in a periodical medium, and you'll narrowly find a genre with characters as dynamic as comic superheroes. I've spent my whole life following Spider-Man on some degree, be it first hand or second hand, and like I've said in a previous post, it doesn't even matter anymore. None of my favorite stories make sense anymore (motherf#$%ing Kraven's Last Hunt!!), and while they still might be great stories, they now lack a certain precedence that I had spent a fair portion of my life working out and making sense of.

They're lucky they didn't try this with Daredevil. I'm telling you, my hands would be covered in blood if they had.

[DrGoodwrench]

I wonder if Harry returning will have an effect on Thunderbolts.

[gnosis]

As an avid DC reader (a universe where if someone sneezes the wrong way continuity can get reshuffled) I think reality usually tends to adjust itself when a change like this happens. So Spidey may still be a New Avenger (and even if he isn't, Bendis' stories take a while to catch up to current events the Marvel Universe so he could still be part of that book for another arc or so) and the Civil War stuff still could ahve happened but the backstory behind it will be a little different now. I am at least hoping Marvel realizes this will affect a ton of books and the writers of said books will work this new reality into their stories (although I'm not holding my breath for this to be dealt with in Thunderbolts).

I do agree with everyone else that this change was a bad idea and that it totally wipes away any growth or character development Peter has had over the last few decades.

[Phil Hunn]

None of my favorite stories make sense anymore (motherf#$%ing Kraven's Last Hunt!!), and while they still might be great stories, they now lack a certain precedence that I had spent a fair portion of my life working out and making sense of.

... and there it is. Kraven's Last Hunt is now rendered meaningless (what's the betting we find out that Kraven I is back as well as Harry? As well as Quentin Beck and every other villain that's died since 1973? We're just lucky that Joe got convinced not to bring Gwen bloody Stacy back...), as are many other classic tales - as well as Peter's time on the New Avengers, because he lived in Avengers Tower with MJ and Aunt May.

Not to mention that since his unmasking has been so clumsily reversed, there is no poster boy for Civil War and the SHRA (for that matter, did Civil War even happen? Was Peter ever a New Avenger?).

The continuity snafus involved in this moronic plot are massive, and Quesada's tunnel-vision has made them all the more glaring.

Besides which, who's more selfish - fans who want Peter to stay a married guy in his mid-twenties (and who's living with his wife in the new millennium), or an EiC who wants him to be a late-teens/early-twenties guy living with his aunt, in what seems to be 1973?

Seems like a no-brainer to me...

[citizenx]

he's the 'kid' of the Marvel U, and in that role he has to stay under a certain age.

Honestly, I think he moved beyond that a long time ago. Yeah, he's younger than the rest of the Big Guns, but he's well respected now and clearly an adult. One of my favorite Spider-Man moments came in Kevin Smith's DD arc where Peter and Matt are talking about losing loved ones. It's a very adult and poignant conversation. There's nothing wrong with having Peter be an adult (albeit a young one) who still is a bit wacky and fun loving. But when you've got characters like Runaways, Young Avengers, the New X-Men, and all that then Spider-Man just can't be the kid of the MU anymore and he shouldn't be (although he would have more understanding and respect for those kids).

[Phil Hunn]

Honestly, I think he moved beyond that a long time ago. Yeah, he's younger than the rest of the Big Guns, but he's well respected now and clearly an adult.

Yeah, and if you look at the thing rationally, Captain America was only about four years older than him. He signed up at about eighteen, had about two years in the war before getting frozen, and that unfreezing was about seven years ago, if we go by the sliding time-rule.

So Cap was 27, and Spidey was 23 and married. Neither of these statements causes me any headaches whatsoever. But apparently Joe Quesada was getting sleep-nosebleeds over Spider-Man's marriage, so it had to go...

[Kevin Jones]

Does this mean The Other didn't happen, and Pete doesn't have the extra powers anymore? Talk about wasted story opportunities. I was really hoping they were going somewhere with all that.

[BlingstonHughes]

Does this mean The Other didn't happen, and Pete doesn't have the extra powers anymore? Talk about wasted story opportunities. I was really hoping they were going somewhere with all that.

They did - right to Mephisto.

I think Quesada confused the concepts of growth and time. Sure, we have this implied Marvel time, where characters "kind of" age and "kind of" get older, but that Marvel time doesn't apply to everyone, clearly. How old is May? Jarvis? Now how old is Franklin? Valeria? Some ages remain stagnant, while others just jump. There's no consistency with how time works, so if Joey Q thinks that certain events make these characters older or unrelatable because kids can't relate to a married hero, then that's not about Pete's age, that's about his growth.

If you have 15 life changing experiences in the next week, does that make you older or more unrelatable than your peers? I don't think so. It changes who you are, to be sure, and defines you differently than you would have been defined a week ago, but people who know you and know what you've been through would know that your reaction after that week is expected from you (which is almost the exact premise of 'The Killing Joke'). They know where were you, what you've been through, and what you've become, and it would make sense, in context. It's very similar to a comic book arc. Resetting that continuity makes the struggle and the growth moot.

In all honesty, if we never mentioned Pete's age, and we never addressed time in general, then the stories would still ultimately have a timeless quality to them and no one would be the wiser. People are getting married as young as 14 and as old as 90, and some of those marriages don't last months, never mind years, so the fact that marriage is synonymous with age is ludicrous. Joe Q's right - I don't want to read about a 75 year old Pete trying to fight Doctor Bedpan but can't because Aunt May's next door making up a batch of wheatcakes, because that's a different set of problems that are solely revolved around Peter as a chronological person. What I want to read are stories about the experiential Peter, the guy who's dealt with death, love, break ups, disappointments, bills, rainy days, etc. Those are things that are influenced by personality. I want to read how someone who lost his uncle and has this tremendous guilt deals with life's regular problems. When you take away the problems he's dealt with, he just becomes dull and redundant. Do we really want to see Pete struggle to keep his identity secret from a girl again? No, because we've been there already. He should, conceivably, know how to do that by now. It was tired back when Fonzie was trying to juggle two girls at the same time, so why would we want to read about it now?

Also, when was being a science whiz relatable to your average 10 year old? When was dating relatable to your average 10 year old? When was having your girlfriend thrown off a bridge relatable to your average 10 year old?

[Phil Hunn]

Does this mean The Other didn't happen, and Pete doesn't have the extra powers anymore? Talk about wasted story opportunities. I was really hoping they were going somewhere with all that.

Considering Peter has his mechanical webshooters again, I suspect his organic webbing and venom stingers are gone.

Ye gods, Marvel is gutless...

[Marty P]

You know, I just wonder what JMS had originally planned.

We know he wanted to break MJ and Peter up, he just did not agree with how Joe Quasada did it.


Maybe we get an The Untold Story issue like we had with The Dark Phoenix Saga....

[Ovid]

You know, I just wonder what JMS had originally planned.

We know he wanted to break MJ and Peter up, he just did not agree with how Joe Quasada did it.Well, that's according to JQ practicing damage limitation with regard to JMS's message board posting. Whether it's true or not is another question.

[citizenx]

Why would Quesada try and alienate and lie about one of his top writers? What does he actually gain from that? I don't like this OMD thing, but I don't see what point there would be to lying about what JMS wanted to do when he knows full well that JMS could refute it at anytime. It's not like JMS really needs Marvel, he even wrote the next Clint Eastwood directed flick.

[Jason Grasso]

We're just lucky that Joe got convinced not to bring Gwen bloody Stacy back.

No instead he sullied her dead memory by retroactively giving her loose knees.

[citizenx]

I don't even see how he got talked about of the Gwen thing. How is it people had good enough argument to keep Gwen dead, but not to keep the marriage and Harry dead? I find that hard to believe. I'm of the opinion that if you are going to do this whole magic retcon thing you might as well go all out. At least with Gwen around readers might actually wonder who Peter will end up with.

Don't get me wrong, I've no desire to see he alive again (though I did like her), but what makes her death more sacred then May, Harry, the Marriage, Jean Grey, Cyclops, Colossus, Hawkeye, etc etc? Especially when there's this deus ex machina involved that wants to make everyone miserable. Gwen would fit in perfectly. Peter would have to juggle them both and be conflicted. MJ would be sad to not have Peter's full attention, the readers would have more to complain about (because isn't Mephisto just JQ telling readers that he enjoys their misery? . . . :mwahaha: )

[Peaches Valentine]

Heh, it is kind of funny how a major point of the book is putting Joe's words in Mephisto's mouth. That kind of tells me that Marvel Editorial wants us to know that Joe Quesada is out to steal our love.

[Radiate]

The third interview with JOE Q at CBR is proving to be very insightful. Major points:

- The last 20 decades of ASM stories are NOT negated. Peter and MJ were still a couple up until this moment; all they weren't were a married couple.

- I know this is from Joe Q and he doesn't speak on behalf of JMS but JMS' original intended way of breaking the marriage apart is worse than what actually occurred!

- I hate to admit this, but Joe Q does have one helluva eloquent argument stating why a single Peter is better than a married one. I'm in a relationship now that seems to be a very stable and settling one, but i don't get as much drama as i was when i was single. And for a comicbook that has lasted and will continue for so long, you NEED stories and drama. A single Peter does achieve this.

His article is quite convincing. Actually, to me it's very convincing. But i don't like that Peter and MJ are apart...

RADIATE!

[Jason Grasso]

I'm in a relationship now that seems to be a very stable and settling one, but i don't get as much drama as i was when i was single. And for a comicbook that has lasted and will continue for so long, you NEED stories and drama. A single Peter does achieve this.

Yes but you're not a superhero. And while I think you're a cool guy in the context of our wonderful community here, I would probably not want to buy a monthly or weekly comic book about your exploits.

Then again, I don't buy Spider-Man comic books because I want to read about Peter's marriage or singlehood. I like that its there, that the background scenery and players of Peter's life mature and evolve. I like that they SOMETIMES affect and become part of his storyline. But I still buy these for the action that is the effect of him being a superhero, not the effect of him being a single man. Quite frankly, they had eons to tell those stories. And him being unmasked and on the run should have been plenty to tell dramatic stories for the next decade.

If I wanted to read about the dramas of a single man, I'll put on Grey's bleeping Anatomy.

[Malachi]

After reading the part 3 of Quesada interview I have to say this: I don't buy it!

He brings up some good points. Sure he does, the man is not a moron(even though many wonders on this point). I knew he was going to say some smart things because even if he's EIC they wouldn't let him pull this stunt off without some solid arguments.

When sitting down and reading this one thing becomes clear to me. Quesada doesn't like to surround himeslf with people with a loud different opinion. Maybe it's part of the job or maybe he just doesn't work good in situations like that. Of course he can name alot of people supporting him because that what he has done on marvel. Hire them and let them write the stories he and they want to read. He names Bendis, Millar, Alonso and JMS as people behinds OMD. Is anyone suprised by this?
I would be shocked if Bendis would have hated OMD. Quesada works very well with these people and they sell issues. That they all can be wrong about OMD is not so far fetched. There track record does not on any level give me a sense of calm about there good judgement on Spider stories.
Some writers just don't do there best work in large crossovers, retcon stories, continitue heavy series. They can be some of the biggest names out there but there strength lies in starting new series, worlds and characters.

He doesn't understand all these "peter chases girl" a pretty done with. I'm tired of them and if spider-man is to be - a comic with fans jumping aboard and leaving after 4 years, new fans jumping on and so on - then sure he can chase some new girls and we allways wonder will it be MJ, Girl A or Girl B. This is a common theme in romance mangas. But hey they never reach more than 14-18 volumes, and why is that?
People get tired. they just say "get on with it!" stop screwing around and choose.
If we expect that we change readers every 4 years then sure, it works. recycle the story every 4 years. The readers haven't read this before so they don't know.

what about the other long running giants.
Batman - No girl stays long here but that's ok, it's not the focus
Superman - Married after a long build up
Spider-Man - Was mairred, now retconned.

How many was thinking: I don't like MJ it should be ____ instead. Gwen is dead and thankfully they didn't revive her. her death is something important in the comic. It's a continuation of Bens death. He needed that to build upon his resolve.

[Radiate]

Yes but you're not a superhero. And while I think you're a cool guy in the context of our wonderful community here, I would probably not want to buy a monthly or weekly comic book about your exploits.

Then again, I don't buy Spider-Man comic books because I want to read about Peter's marriage or singlehood. I like that its there, that the background scenery and players of Peter's life mature and evolve. I like that they SOMETIMES affect and become part of his storyline. But I still buy these for the action that is the effect of him being a superhero, not the effect of him being a single man. Quite frankly, they had eons to tell those stories. And him being unmasked and on the run should have been plenty to tell dramatic stories for the next decade.

If I wanted to read about the dramas of a single man, I'll put on Grey's bleeping Anatomy.

Damn...there goes my dream...!:P

RADIATE!

[Alan Lynch]

- I hate to admit this, but Joe Q does have one helluva eloquent argument stating why a single Peter is better than a married one. I'm in a relationship now that seems to be a very stable and settling one, but i don't get as much drama as i was when i was single. And for a comicbook that has lasted and will continue for so long, you NEED stories and drama. A single Peter does achieve this.
As has been pointed out already, sadly Radiate you're not a superhero. Neither do you have professional writers being paid to think up of interesting things to have happen to you. So now Joe thinks there's nobody save him who could give a arried Peter Parker anything interesting to do. What a load of old shite, if you'll pardon my French. Joe wasn't happy; thousands of others were. Except none of them have this fancy toy to play with like he does. Is it just me who finds that whole idea infuriatingly arrogant?

[Kizmet]

Is it really selfish to want to see a character develop? I'm offended at the assertion. Isn't character development what makes superhero comics great?

I don't think whether or not it's selfish to want that is even a relevant question. Peter DID develop, over a period of many years his character was changed and effected by the stories told about him. Peter had a history, one which long time readers were familiar with and new readers could investigate as they liked.

Now we don't know Peter any more. We don't know what parts of his history happened and what parts didn't, or what parts happened differently. Harry walks in alive, somehow, because of this wish but we don't know anything about him, about how he's changed and how his relationship to Peter has changed to make him not dead. Now Spiderman is like picking up a book with the first half ripped out, erased and mangled to the point where nothing we can look up about that first half has any meaning any more.

Does this mean The Other didn't happen, and Pete doesn't have the extra powers anymore? Talk about wasted story opportunities. I was really hoping they were going somewhere with all that.

How about the whole unmasking thing. Talk about missed opportunities. So much fuss about Peter revealing his identity and we get what? One story about his life after unmasking before the cat gets stuffed back into the bag?

With Daredevil Bendis and Brubaker did a good job of building up, revealing DD's identity, telling stories with Matt unmasked and then gradually eroding people's certainty that Matt was DD and moving "Daredevil" back toward the default status quo. It's a nice steady pendulum ride of rising and falling action, with Spiderman someone has his hand on the pendulum and keeps yanking it around in unnatural ways and playing magic tricks with it.

Matt's unmasking was a story-arc. Peter's is nothing but a cheap stunt.

[Alan Lynch]

With Daredevil Bendis and Brubaker did a good job of building up, revealing DD's identity, telling stories with Matt unmasked and then gradually eroding people's certainty that Matt was DD and moving "Daredevil" back toward the default status quo. It's a nice steady pendulum ride of rising and falling action, with Spiderman someone has his hand on the pendulum and keeps yanking it around in unnatural ways and playing magic tricks with it.

Matt's unmasking was a story-arc. Peter's is nothing but a cheap stunt.
Couldn't agree more. Hilariously - or not, as the case may be - Marvel refuted the accusation that Spider-Man unmasking was a stunt they'd reboot a couple of years later.

[Phil Hunn]

No instead he sullied her dead memory by retroactively giving her loose knees.

Yes, there is that. And that story showing us Norman Osborn's Sex Face didn't exactly improve matters...

I don't even see how he got talked about of the Gwen thing. How is it people had good enough argument to keep Gwen dead, but not to keep the marriage and Harry dead?

Because Gwen Stacy was a boring character with all the appeal of smearing your genitals in pig blood and then diving crotch-first into a barrel of hungry piranhas, that's why. The best thing she ever did was get chucked off that damn bridge.

Also, her being brought back to life - like Harry's miraculous, non-Goblin-related resurrection - just opens up a massive can of continuity worms. A significant chunk of Peter's motivations over the years has sprung out of her death, and for her to suddenly be alive again negates that totally.

- I hate to admit this, but Joe Q does have one helluva eloquent argument stating why a single Peter is better than a married one.

His argument seems to be based on this one simple tenet: "Wah! Change bad!" And that a married superhero strangles every last story possibility, which is so pathetically stupid it's not true. It might kill story possibilities for a single Peter, but it opens so many more for a married Peter.

I'm pretty sure that with him in charge at DC, we'd never have got to see Nightwing, Red Arrow or a grown-up Donna Troy (instead, we'd be stuck with Dick as Robin, Roy as Speedy, and Donna Troy as Wonder Girl), or have seen Superman & the Flash get married (and, in the Flash's case, even have kids).

He's the selfish one intentionally boxing the character into a corner here, not the pro-marriage folks.

Joe wasn't happy; thousands of others were. Except none of them have this fancy toy to play with like he does. Is it just me who finds that whole idea infuriatingly arrogant?

I certainly do.

[Ovid]

Superman & the Flash get marriedSuperman and the Flash married?! :omg:

:flash: :hug: :supes: :cheers:

EDIT: And in relevant news, JMS has now gone on the record with his version of the disagreement (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756).

[citizenx]

JQ certainly believes strongly that he is right in what he says and he makes a couple of valid points. Unfortunately he misses several others. He talks about all this story potential that opens up from having a single Peter Parker but I can only think of one. Then he says there's no story that can be told with a married Spider-Man that can't be with a married one. True enough, but the thing is they were MARRIED.

Another thing that bothered me. He talks about how Ultimate Spider-Man being single isn't the same as MU Peter because they are different and then says if you want married Peter and MJ go read Spider-Girl. Really? At least USM is about Peter Parker. But I do highly recommend anyone looking to protest to drop ASM and replace it with Spider-Girl. That would show Marvel what you really want. Plus is would be funny.

As for JMS' story. It's much better in that it actually seems thought out and makes actual sense (still don't like the magic reboot thing, but whatever). JQ tries to tell everyone that OMD only got rid of a piece of paper and a ring. Well what about Harry being back (that had to have changed continuity immensely) and the whole organic web shooters and The Other didn't happen and no one remembers his involvement in Civil War. That's hardly keeping everything the same.

I guess I just feel that for as much as JQ seems to have thought about how much he hates the marriage (for which he has a compelling enough argument) he came up with such a patchwork, forced, and contrived means to end it.

And then he claims it wasn't editorially driven. That's just ridiculous.

[Phil Hunn]

Superman and the Flash married?! :omg:

Ha ha ha :P

Clark and Wally suddenly turning gay after years of being straighter than arrows would actually be more believable than this tosh. And that's really sad.

[franckd]

Bobby's death was Pam's dream. What a brillant idea :frust:

[BlingstonHughes]

Joey's obviously confusing Peter Parker with Tobey Maguire's portrayal of Peter Parker. I never saw Pete as "the lovable loser." He was a guy with realistic problems, and also fantastic problems, but his sense of responsibility and his affable "kid from the block" attitude got him through it. He hasn't been nerdy since the 60s-70s, his best friend was the richest kid in school, his girlfriend was the most beautiful girl in school, his wife is a supermodel (notice 'is'...I'm still hoping beyond hope), his aunt is immortal, he's always had a steady income, etc. Yeah, as a reader, I worry about him - will he be able to juggle his regular life with his irregular life, but I know that his personality and his perseverance will get him through it. Lovable loser, not so much. He always gets it right in the end (mostly).

Tobey made Pete into a jinx. Nothing ever went right for him, and not only were things horribly depressing, all he did was mope - the only 'jokes' I remember Spidey uttering were the quick "quiet down, kid" to JJ in 1 and "Here's your change" in 2. That's it. In 3 movies. That's what I call a lovable loser - someone who's luck is just so terrible and who tries so hard to do the right thing that you feel sorry for them more than root for them, and if you root, it's because you feel so much pity for them. Poor guy couldn't even get a drink at Jameson's party.

It's no surprise that those movies were made under JQ's regime as EIC. It speaks very much to the kind of Pete he wants to portray, the guy who keeps getting the short end of the stick because of his sense of responsibility. But we've been there already. We've seen him lose the girl because Ock was robbing a bank. It's not entertaining anymore. And if all of these changes are meant to bring in new readers and minimize continuity confusion, then why isn't every issue a rehash of the origin story? We might have a new reader next month - wouldn't want him to be confused.

In the end, I'm not upset at the ending of the marriage. It's more frustrating that they used this hackneyed "It's magic, we don't have to explain it" approach. JMS sounds like he actually took the time to pinpoint the areas of continuity that would be touched by these changes and seemed to want them to be addressed in future issues, but those changes aren't where JQ wanted to head in BND, so we have the reset button.

[franckd]

I hate it when Editors In Chief dictate their stories to writers. JMS was right to refuse the credits for that "insult" to the Spidey's fans.

I don't know if Marvel will get new readers from this. But a fact for sure : they just lost me. And it's just not words. I'm not a x-fan or spidey fan enough to buy crap, just to have all the collection. And for sure, thare are a lot of holes in my "collection"...

Rebbots, retcons, are no good in the long term policy. We don't need that. We just need good stories.

I prefer the concept of "superconsistency" to attract new readers.

(And JQ obsession over Peter & MJ wedding is over ridiculous.)

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

well, i know i'm going to be in the minority on this one...but i really liked the issue. hell, some of it i downright loved. now, i HATE the decision(s) to split Peter and MJ up and, after all of their assurances that Spidey's unmasking wouldn't just be swept away, to...hmm, how to best put this? ah, right...SWEEP IT AWAY! that part in particular irked me, especially with how tacked on it was. that said, i thought the issue in and of itself (and diablo ex machina aside) was very well done.

as for the last scene, i personally took it to be a flashback scene, to the moment where history diverges for Peter and MJ, which is why Harry is still alive (and apparently single and childless) and Peter is still living with Aunt May. it could've been clearer, but that's the impression that i got.

JMS has had an incredible run on this book and reignited my love for the character. so here's to a remarkable run, even if he had to end it to suit the EiC's whims rather than his own creativity and imagination. :cheers:

[BlingstonHughes]

as for the last scene, i personally took it to be a flashback scene, to the moment where history diverges for Peter and MJ, which is why Harry is still alive (and apparently single and childless) and Peter is still living with Aunt May. it could've been clearer, but that's the impression that i got.




Joe Q says that everything in the last 20 years of continuity still happened exactly the way it did in the books, with the sole exception of the "I do"s. So, according to Joe, history diverged at the wedding, but that's it. Apparently, there were no hard feelings following the non-wedding since everything up to the present day carried on the same as it did originally. Based on his explanation of how the deal with Mephisto works, Normie should still be alive, Pete and MJ still live together, MJ was pregnant, etc. However, as can be seen, Pete lives with Aunt May now and The Other never took place, so Joe Q's comment about how things are exactly the same (within continuity) is immediately proven to be false. Confusion, thy name is One More Day.

[Marty P]

Quasada's comment that it does not destroy continuity for the last 20 years just makes no sense AT ALL.

He's just trying to convince people in the hopes at least some turn around and say it's all cool then.

[Kevin Jones]

Joe Q says that everything in the last 20 years of continuity still happened exactly the way it did in the books, with the sole exception of the "I do"s. So, according to Joe, history diverged at the wedding, but that's it. Apparently, there were no hard feelings following the non-wedding since everything up to the present day carried on the same as it did originally. Based on his explanation of how the deal with Mephisto works, Normie should still be alive, Pete and MJ still live together, MJ was pregnant, etc. However, as can be seen, Pete lives with Aunt May now and The Other never took place, so Joe Q's comment about how things are exactly the same (within continuity) is immediately proven to be false. Confusion, thy name is One More Day.When was MJ pregnant? Guess I missed that. I don't think anyone's going to buy Pete & MJ living together still. I think he meant everything except things that are related to their marriage are the same. But as anyone who's married can tell you, almost every part of your life is affected by your marriage, so that's pretty ridiculous. We really need some kind of guide to tell us what still happened, what didn't. That is, I would want it if I was still reading, which I'm not.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

hmm...yeah, now that i've seen the comments that the final scene IS in the present day, but somehow continuity wasn't affected (what?), this is all a bit more confusing than it should be. JMS's comments on the changes Quesada made to the story he ACTUALLY wrote made me laugh a little bit.

"So Peter and MJ were never married? Or just no one remembers them being married?"

"MAGIC!"

"And there's no memory or record of Peter ever having unmasked or did that event actually not occur?"

"MAGIC!"

"And continuity's completely unaffected, despite all of the other stories that those two things touched upon on a fundamental level?"

"MAGIC!"

"...except that Harry's alive again..."

"MAGIC!"

"...the Other never occurred..."

"MAGIC!"

"...Peter's back at the Bugle..."

"MAGIC!"

"...and living with his aunt again..."

"MAGIC!"

"...and, wait, did the sniper just never shoot her or did Mephisto save her life or...?"

"MAGIC! MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC!!!"

"Ah. Okay, as long as there's some kind of internal story logic to it." :rolleyes:

[Phil Hunn]

We really need some kind of guide to tell us what still happened, what didn't. That is, I would want it if I was still reading, which I'm not.

The only "guide" we seem to be getting at this point is "A wizard did it". Which is pants. Big, smelly granny-pants.

[BlingstonHughes]

When was MJ pregnant? Guess I missed that.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Watson-Parker,_Mary_Jane

"Miserable, tense, her life was a far cry from the happy carefree days before her marriage. But things started looking up for the young couple when Mary Jane became pregnant."

Just one of many things that JQ missed on his magic carpet ride through continuity. I hope you guys check that link before Marvel changes the page.

[Marty P]

hmm...yeah, now that i've seen the comments that the final scene IS in the present day, but somehow continuity wasn't affected (what?), this is all a bit more confusing than it should be. JMS's comments on the changes Quesada made to the story he ACTUALLY wrote made me laugh a little bit.

"So Peter and MJ were never married? Or just no one remembers them being married?"

"MAGIC!"

"And there's no memory or record of Peter ever having unmasked or did that event actually not occur?"

"MAGIC!"

"And continuity's completely unaffected, despite all of the other stories that those two things touched upon on a fundamental level?"

"MAGIC!"

"...except that Harry's alive again..."

"MAGIC!"

"...the Other never occurred..."

"MAGIC!"

"...Peter's back at the Bugle..."

"MAGIC!"

"...and living with his aunt again..."

"MAGIC!"

"...and, wait, did the sniper just never shoot her or did Mephisto save her life or...?"

"MAGIC! MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC!!!"

"Ah. Okay, as long as there's some kind of internal story logic to it." :rolleyes:
Hmm, I can't imagine Quasada being happy with this.

[Radiate]

Iiii dunno, i reckon Quesda wouldn't take JMS' comments to heart.

RADIATE!

[Phil Hunn]

Hmm, I can't imagine Quasada being happy with this.

Quesada probably couldn't care less - about the fans' opinion of him, or of JMS' opinion of him. He's got what HE wanted, and the rest of us can like it or lump it...

[Arrogantcur]

And him being unmasked and on the run should have been plenty to tell dramatic stories for the next decade.

Ah, thank you! I know that not everybody was a fan of the unmasking and I certainly understand it, but I enjoyed him being a fugitive. There was one particular exchange he had with Sandman in FNSM...

SANDMAN: Some article said your uncle died when you were a kid. That he meant a lot to you.

SPIDEY: Can't say I'm thrilled everybody knows every damned thing about me.

SANDMAN: Welcome to my world. My life's on the books since I was sixteen. Privacy's the first thing t'go when you're a crook: knowin' that cops, lawyers, parole officers are watchin' ya, judgin' ya. It does things to ya. Makes ya angry all the time. Y'know?

SPIDEY: I...kind of do. Before I unmasked, people might hate Spider-Man...but he was this...this guy I created. He wasn't Peter Parker. So who cared? Now...now I've got no place to hide. Not physically, not emotionally. And it...

SANDMAN: Gets to ya?

SPIDEY: A little. Yeah.

SANDMAN: After a few years, it'll get to you a lot. It don't take wearing a mask...or turning yourself into sand...to wind up being unrecognizable.


Now I'd say that's some good writing.

If you forget for a second how stupid it was for him to unmask in the first place, consider: not only have we got Peter being pursued by the authorities and by other heroes, but he has been put in the shoes of the very people he's been fighting during his career and he now understands them better. I thought that was a great evolutionary step for Peter and I would have liked to see how he would handle himself after having had this experience, whether he might still have a "me vs. them" mindset towards criminals or whether he might sympathize with them more often.

Yep, that would've been interesting to see. Too bad Peter's forgotten all about his time on the run and that conversation with Sandman. :sigh:

"...and living with his aunt again..."

This is one of the hardest changes for me to swallow. Peter has no reason to be living there, unless he's fallen on hard times again. He's been supporting himself for a long time, he's had his own place before and, as JMS pointed out, that house burned down.

If the story called for him to interact with May, why didn't they have him wake up in the old place he had with the skylight during the Stern and DeFalco runs (and I think also during part of Michelinie's, not sure) and then head on over to visit May? It'd work just as well. It would consume, what, three or four panels of the story?

Apparently, there were no hard feelings following the non-wedding since everything up to the present day carried on the same as it did originally.

Maybe we're gonna find out next week, but I was trying to figure out what could have happened to stop a wedding that would've left Peter and MJ on good terms immediately afterwards. I mean am I wrong or do people generally not like it if one of the biggest days of their life is derailed?

Maybe it was something like this:

PETER: Oh noes!

(Sure, why not, let's have him say "oh noes" in the late '80s as long as we're throwing character consistency out the window.)

MARY JANE: What is it?

PETER: I just remembered that I forgot to pick up the marriage license!

MARY JANE: Peter, you blockhead!

PETER: Sorry.

MARY JANE: Awww, I can't stay mad at you. You wanna just live together in a monogamous long-term relationship?

PETER: Okay!

MARY JANE: Great! And it doesn't matter to me at all that it turned out to be a colossal waste of time and money to invite all of our friends and family, spend time getting fitted for my dress, buy the rings, rent the space, make all the preparations, or any of that. Why should I worry my pretty little head over such things?

Problem solved? :]

well, i know i'm going to be in the minority on this one...but i really liked the issue. hell, some of it i downright loved. now, i HATE the decision(s) to split Peter and MJ up and, after all of their assurances that Spidey's unmasking wouldn't just be swept away, to...hmm, how to best put this? ah, right...SWEEP IT AWAY! that part in particular irked me, especially with how tacked on it was. that said, i thought the issue in and of itself (and diablo ex machina aside) was very well done.

I don't expect anything less from JMS, really. Even if he didn't object to the breakup itself I still consider him a great writer.

Of course the art, script, even the plot that takes the story where Quesada wants it to go are all surface stuff. It's delicious milk chocolate coating covering a center of untreated sewage, i.e. the breakup itself.

And, okay, MJ's speech about how they had something that could never be destroyed and her confidence they would reunite, that makes me less angry because it leaves the door open that they'll get back together eventually (they just won't get married). I really planned to stop reading until the two of them were back together, and maybe that happens sooner than I thought. But you know, if they throw Peter together with Felicia Hardy or some other girl between now and then, I'm gonna be pissed. Even though I have always liked Felicia.

I don't know if Marvel will get new readers from this.

Here is something that did not occur to me until last night. Perhaps I should have thought of it sooner, and perhaps some of the rest of you already did. Anyway, here it is:

-Marvel got a lot of new readers due to the hype surrounding Civil War.

-Many of these new readers have not read the stories we have and, therefore, aren't attached to the marriage as we are.

-As a result, the newer readers aren't going to care as much and will keep buying the books, and they might outnumber us.

Or to put it another way, Quesada says "We'll unmask Spider-Man, double our readership, then break up the marriage and maybe lose half of our readers but keep all the new ones who don't know the history and don't care. At the very least we'll break even and my lifelong dream will finally be fulfilled. Gentlemen, to evil!" :cheers:

You think it's gonna work out that way? I would love to be wrong about this.

EDIT: Oh yeah, there is also the little matter of the unmasking being just slightly inconsistent. (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/08/08/things-you-always-wondered-about-comics-revealed/)

[Phil Hunn]

You think it's gonna work out that way? I would love to be wrong about this.

I'd love for you to be wrong, too, but I can pretty much guarantee you won't be.

Quesada will use the sales figures of the first few issues of Brand New Rerun ASM as "proof" that he was right all along. Which is a completely erroneous and idiotic argument, considering that since ASM is THE Spider-Book and will be coming out three times a month, sales are pretty much guaranteed to rise, and would do so regardless of whether Peter was married or not.

Using such a loaded set of dice is what's generally known as "cheating". And Joe Q will, of course, make no reference to how he stacked the playing field in his favour to such an absurd degree in his triumphant crowing about how people have come to embrace the "new, improved Spider-Man".

So unless there is a massive nosedive that goes against the usual run of things, Joe Q has effectively won on this one.

[Arrogantcur]

That's what I was afraid he would do. But I'm wondering if he wouldn't have come out ahead even if he hadn't chosen this moment to start putting out three issues of ASM per month.

At first I thought that there was no way for him to replace the readers he was losing because this isn't big enough for him to do a promotional tour of tv shows and things. I couldn't imagine him saying "Hey, guess what? Spider-Man ISN'T MARRIED ANYMORE! And that means all of you viewers out there should start reading now, because that makes it way better!"

Then it hit me: he already did a promotional tour during the leadup to Civil War. So he might have decided to switch one group of readers (most of the regulars here and like-minded folks) for another (all the newbies).

Years ago Chapter One was not well-received, but back when it came out I bought it and I didn't really care much because I had not read the stories that were being retconned. So if the majority of readers today are similar to me back then, in that they haven't read too many stories involving the marriage or the relationship and don't really care about it... :sigh:

[Eric Travis]

I've been through the boards here and at other sites, and it appears to me that a wide majority of folks would not be automatically or passionately opposed to the marriage being removed.

If it was done in a rational, competent story.

I get the feeling that the reason so many people are upset (I'm not a regular Spidey-reader, so I just shunt this to the 'it never happened' category) is the way the story was forced down their throats. After insisting that he hates magic in the MU because it has no 'rules' or logic, and after a four-part mini-series allegedly intended to re-open the door to magic in the MU, Joe Q. sweeps in with Mephisto, who snaps his fingers and singlehandedly alters more reality than Kulan Gath and Wanda Maximoff combined.

Someone mentioned the 'Speedball must die' trip that Quesada was on in the months leading to Civil War, and how it was a deliberate 'swerve' to tweak people's passions. All well and good, except I'm still holding a grudge about this insipid emo-whiney 'Penance' creature. It may well be that this is all a clever ploy to get people worked up and excited, only to turn around a year or two down the line and retcon the retcon.

But that doesn't change the reality of this story, which is even more insulting to dedicated and devoted fans than the Speedball thing.


I can understand Joe's itch to 'put this genie back in the bottle'. I understand his reasoning for wanting a single Pete. I'm not arguing his intentions or his right to do what he feels is best for the character. But the devil is in the details, as they say. The issue itself is probably very well-crafted and paced (I'm assuming), and works well from a purely technical perspective. But it is still a prime example of forced editorial influence, and I have trouble thinking of a single comic book which is ever made better by the editorial staff getting more involved in the plot than the purported writer.

[Jesse Baer]

Wizard has an article on their site about fan reaction to this issue, and there's one part of it that I just love...
The fan reaction spilled over onto the Wizard Universe Message Boards where feelings ran from shock to disappointment. ...Although the most extreme response may go to message board member Lee who stated, “I cannot even express in words right now how horribly sick I feel. I wrecked my car today on the way home from the comic book store. I had a little pity party over that and made some calls for estimates and that's taken care of. And the first thing I did after that was read this comic. I think this might actually suck more than a car wreck.”

[abaddon667]

I've been through the boards here and at other sites, and it appears to me that a wide majority of folks would not be automatically or passionately opposed to the marriage being removed.

If it was done in a rational, competent story.



To be honest, they already had written a great way to write MJ out, and the fans rejected it as well. I know I'm in the minority, but I was a huge fan of the clone saga. That was a perfect way to get Spider-man single again, and have Peter go off and have a happy ending with MJ. It wasn't just rushed into. It was build off a story already in the Spider-man mythos. It took its time establishing Ben as a character in the Spider-man world, just like Bucky in Captain America comics. And after the right amount of time, he would replace him. Yet, fans were in an uproar. I never understood it.

I know this is speculative, but it seems to me that many fans believed that being a clone makes you less of a person. Ben Reily (or Peter if the original story would have accepted) wasn't any less Spider-man by the big reveal of Spectacular spider-man vol. 1, issue 226, nor was the heroics done by Peter (thought to be a clone) negated in any way. They both had all the same memories up to issue Amazing 150, and from then, at least continuinty wouldn't have been messed up.

Since Ben was rejected, Marvel tried to get MJ out by killing her in a plane crash, but that was also rejected. They tried to keep them seperated, but they were brought back together.

Marvel has been wanting to do this for a long time it seems. If only if we accepted the clone saga, we wouldn't have OMD! :dizzy:

[Arrogantcur]

I liked Ben Reilly and was unhappy they went so far as to kill him off. But I never liked the idea of making Peter the clone.

Partly because it meant that his relationship with MJ was partly a lie, since she wasn't marrying the person she thought she was.

Partly because it meant that we had not been reading about the real Peter Parker for all of those years.

Partly because of the stupid way he reacted to the news ("Oh woe is me, my life is meaningless because I'm a clone. What's that, Jackal? You want me to join you? Sure, why not? It's not like I'm a real person or anything, so I might as well agree to serve one of my greatest enemies like his dutiful son.")

If being a clone doesn't make you any less of a person then why did Marvel feel the need to tell us "the new Spider-Man is the REAL Peter Parker and NOT a clone!"

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would have accepted the clone as the new Spidey. Or they could have devoted two of the books to Ben (as they were doing for a little while) and two of them to Peter. One could give us a married Spider-Man, and one could give us a single one, both in the same universe.

[abaddon667]

Partly because it meant that his relationship with MJ was partly a lie, since she wasn't marrying the person she thought she was.

If Peter had been the clone, he still would have been the same person she was married to. They never really dated pre- Amazing 150 much, and the clone would still have the memories of that.


Partly because it meant that we had not been reading about the real Peter Parker for all of those years.

Well, the book follows the life of the person as Spider-man, and Ben wasn't acting as Spider-man in those years. I don't see the problem there.


Partly because of the stupid way he reacted to the news ("Oh woe is me, my life is meaningless because I'm a clone. What's that, Jackal? You want me to join you? Sure, why not? It's not like I'm a real person or anything, so I might as well agree to serve one of my greatest enemies like his dutiful son.")


Yeah, I attribute that to Peter having a mental brakedown at the time. Harry had just postmordiously revealled to Peter that his Parants, who had returned from the dead, were artifical humans. Then, right after that Shriek tried to drive him insane, and it almost worked. It was a bad time for Peter. He recovered, and did so before Ben was killed.



Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would have accepted the clone as the new Spidey. Or they could have devoted two of the books to Ben (as they were doing for a little while) and two of them to Peter. One could give us a married Spider-Man, and one could give us a single one, both in the same universe.

Now that would have been a great idea! Its a shame. Spider-man #75 was the end of an era when Ben Reily was killed. And so begins a new era again.

[franckd]

Let the future tell us if Joe Quesada is better than the "Dallas" screenwriters ;) Who knows ?

Maybe he's right. Even if I think he insulted reader's intelligence & loyalty, using one of the lamest way possible too change things.

I had respect for Quesada once. It was during his early years as EIC. He brought Morrison in, he wanted to axe many x-books (too much X kills the X) and he swore that "dead was dead"...

How this brillant guy could change that much ???

I think a skrull took over JQ. Or maybe, it's... Magic !

[Phil Hunn]

I had respect for Quesada once. It was during his early years as EIC. He brought Morrison in, he wanted to axe many x-books (too much X kills the X) and he swore that "dead was dead"...

I respected Quesada once, too. Those days are long gone now.

How this brillant guy could change that much ???

There's an old saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I think we're well past the point of absolute corruption for Joe Q these days...

[franckd]

Yes. Absolute power corrupted many editors in chief before... Dictating stories to writers. (Poor Seagle & Kelly, they had to suffer this during their X-Run)

Unfortunately for him, The Dark Quesada Saga is not that interesting.

[citizenx]

To be honest, they already had written a great way to write MJ out, and the fans rejected it as well. I know I'm in the minority, but I was a huge fan of the clone saga.


Ah, I actually liked the Clone Saga when I read it as a kid. Or at least the beginning, but it end up so freaking confusing. And I understand why it was rejected. It was really too much to take. Peter was a clone? People just don't identify with clones it seems.

Honestly, when you have to resort to clones or making deals with the devil just to end a marriage then you are way overthinking the whole thing. I still say the perfect way to end the marriage would have been divorce because young people who rush into marriage often end up divorced. And they don't become 40 year olds because of it. And after a couple years go by no one would ever need mention the whole divorce thing anyway.

[franckd]

Also, writers could just avoid the words "wife", "husband", "married"...

This way, new readers can think they're just a "young couple in love", and old readers would still know they're married.

Anyway, any other solution would have been better than this Magic crap.

[Arrogantcur]

Yeah, I mean when was the last time anybody talked about Spider-Man's origin? The idea of getting your powers from a radioactive spider seems ridiculous these days, and fans didn't like Chapter One.

The answer? Just avoid the subject altogether.

That would work just as well with a divorce.

[franckd]

Honestly, when you have to resort to clones or making deals with the devil just to end a marriage then you are way overthinking the whole thing.

I SO much agree.


I still say the perfect way to end the marriage would have been divorce because young people who rush into marriage often end up divorced. And they don't become 40 year olds because of it. And after a couple years go by no one would ever need mention the whole divorce thing anyway.

You're unfortunately right : divorce is not only a 30/50 yo people thing anymore. Lots of very young couple divorce. Ask Britney Spears. This (surely pathetic) role model (just kiddin) has already two divorces before she reaches 30.

But i guess Joe Quesada is too old to get it.

Yeah, I mean when was the last time anybody talked about Spider-Man's origin? The idea of getting your powers from a radioactive spider seems ridiculous these days, and fans didn't like Chapter One.


Yes. The radioactive spider sounds cheap nowadays. Well, Spidey's origins might be not credible, but at least they arent' wolverinely mysterious. And thank god ! I don't want to see a Spidey Origin Story written by new writers every 2 years.

[abaddon667]

Ah, I actually liked the Clone Saga when I read it as a kid. Or at least the beginning, but it end up so freaking confusing. And I understand why it was rejected. It was really too much to take. Peter was a clone? People just don't identify with clones it seems.

Honestly, when you have to resort to clones or making deals with the devil just to end a marriage then you are way overthinking the whole thing. I still say the perfect way to end the marriage would have been divorce because young people who rush into marriage often end up divorced. And they don't become 40 year olds because of it. And after a couple years go by no one would ever need mention the whole divorce thing anyway.

Well, I hate about OMD is not so much about the deal Peter and MJ made, as much as it was used as an out clause for all the cool development with Peter in the last few years. It makes no sense that he has no more organic webbing, since the marriage had nothing to do with "the queen" transforming Peter into a giant spider. It cheapens the unmasking of Spider-man, which in turn, cheapens Civil War in marvel comics. Speaking of which, is Spider-man on the run from the law? I'm sure his "other" powers are gone. But hey, if that's the case, he can die and gets a free resurrection out of the deal! Of course, I would want that story to be better than the other... :rolleyes:

[franckd]

Yes. And like many others said before, how this will affect the other Marvel Books ???
Isn't the Marvel Universe convulted enough ?

[BlingstonHughes]

HA! I love the internet!

From Wikipedia: Clone Saga - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_saga

"The decision to replace Peter with Ben as the regular, true Spider-Man met with a massive outcry from many readers and was also unpopular with many of the creative staff of the day. The decision was soon taken to undo this and restore Peter as the true Spider-Man. However, this proved a difficult decision to implement and many schemes were devised, including one proposal to reveal the entire confusion as having been spawned by the demon Mephisto as part of a struggle with Judas Traveller and Scrier. This was rejected as being widely out of Spider-Man's league. "

One's man's trash, I guess...

[emesem]

HOLD ON did someone delete the APRIL FOOLS! post??? You guys can't be serious. are you?

[Alan Lynch]

Yeah, I mean when was the last time anybody talked about Spider-Man's origin? The idea of getting your powers from a radioactive spider seems ridiculous these days, and fans didn't like Chapter One.

The answer? Just avoid the subject altogether.

That would work just as well with a divorce.
Ah, but divorce would make Peter appear too old for that hipster Quesada. It's much cooler to be a 20-something who lives at home with a near 80 year old woman. PAR-TAY.

Not to mention the frightening number of young married couples who break up regularly these days.

[franckd]

Yes; As I said , Quesada has no idea what young people are nowdays. He's himself way too old (especially in his head) to get it.

Joe, you are 45 yo. Your perception of a divorced guy is not the same than a teen can have.

And I agree, having Peter living with his old aunt, doesn't make him younger or cooler. It's called nostalgia.

I really have the feeling that Quesada is desperate, and doesn't know where to go :

X-men :
He brought Morrison. Exit spandex, exit the mutant minority, exit the old fashion writing. 3 years later, old spandex is back, as Claremont.
Then suddenly, Quesada thinks that mutant culture and majority are not so cool, so he rewrites history with "magic" Wanda powers. "No more mutants", depowered mutants. Yeah, it didn't last that much....

Quesada should forget his "Magic way" to rewrite history whenever he wants to change something. It's lame, it's not clever, not intelligent. He should be ashamed of what he has done with Spider-man, just to get rid of MJ as a wife.

Maybe Quesada has a bad fetish with Red Hair characters... Once, I told him that I missed my favorite character, written out of the x-books. He answered that I still had "Ultimate Jean"... Which is of course a lame answer. Next time I will tell him that if he wanted so much a single Peter Parker, he had Ultimate Spider-man for this...

And if he loves that much to rewrite hsitory, he has the What If books to concrete his desires and fantasies.

By the way, I really like this video review of OMD:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Sex2ATYsRmw
(Editorial ego/smoking is a bad exemple for kids, but according Quesada, Hero making a deal with devil is a good exemple for kids)

[Kizmet]

Then suddenly, Quesada thinks that mutant culture and majority are not so cool, so he rewrites history with "magic" Wanda powers. "No more mutants", depowered mutants. Yeah, it didn't last that much....



There never was a majority Mutant population, Morrison created a world wide mutant population which, at 32 million was 0.4% of the world population (using the Census Bureau's calculation of the world population). The Black population in the US was 13% in 2000, that is a minority population. The Asian population was 4.2%. 32 million individuals is in no way shape or form a majority population for a world wide population... Except in the minds of certain people at Marvel. This is as much a fiction as the idea that being divorced means you must be old.

[Phil Hunn]

Yes. And like many others said before, how this will affect the other Marvel Books ???
Isn't the Marvel Universe convulted enough ?

"It's Magic. We Don't Have To Explain It."

That's all the explanation we're gonna get :(

[citizenx]

There never was a majority Mutant population, Morrison created a world wide mutant population which, at 32 million was 0.4% of the world population (using the Census Bureau's calculation of the world population). The Black population in the US was 13% in 2000, that is a minority population. The Asian population was 4.2%. 32 million individuals is in no way shape or form a majority population for a world wide population... Except in the minds of certain people at Marvel. This is as much a fiction as the idea that being divorced means you must be old.


Yeah, that really bothered me about House of M (or was one of the many things). Besides, just because there are 32 million mutants doesn't mean you have to try and cram them all into your X-books. I just thought it was ridiculous that House of M came along and practically wiped out the mutant population (no Marvel, 200 isn't 10% of 32 million even though every decimation book talked about a 90% reduction in population) and yet we are still left with the same group of mutants that I've been reading about my whole life. No impact was ever felt and it seemed such a pointless idea.

Now OMD comes along and everything is complete different and Marvel wants us to believe that very little has changed other than the marriage.

By the way, Newsarama had a two page spread explaining the new Spidey staus quo. It's acutally worse than I thought. And I'm not even that big a Spidey fan. :no:

[Phil Hunn]

Now OMD comes along and everything is complete different and Marvel wants us to believe that very little has changed other than the marriage.

Which is total crap.

By the way, Newsarama had a two page spread explaining the new Spidey staus quo. It's acutally worse than I thought. And I'm not even that big a Spidey fan. :no:

Yeah, I saw that. It's sad that Marvel has to put out a continuity crib sheet for fans because of this piece of crap. It's even sadder to see the depths to which they've sunk...

[BlingstonHughes]

No kidding - that spread is a mess. It just reeks of Marvel trying to force readers into just going along with it.

My favorite parts:

"(Harry) still considers Peter his best friend and he still hates Spidey with a vengeance." Why? His father's still alive, he's alive, so everything should be dandy, no?

"May currently shares her house with - you guessed it - her nephew Pete." Is that 'you guessed it' Marvel's snide way of talking down to the readers?

"Absolutely no one knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. Not Daredevil, not the Avengers, not anyone." Why did they eliminate Daredevil from the people who know who he is? And the Avengers? How many team books are there where