Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

[david r]

Here is an earlier quote to answer you, Scott

Originally Posted by david r

23) Current Uncanny X-Men Run: Chris Claremont has said that he and artist Chris Bachalo had a ton of ideas for the book.

A Federally-mandated member was going to join Uncanny X-Men with #475. This person would have made Psylocke's head explode!!

Claremont hinted that events leading to X-Men: The End would have occured in UXM. Leading up to #500; events like the outer space war that leads to Storm becoming incapacitated and the extinction of the Brood.

He was setting up something big with the Hellfire Club. Especially with the duality within. Sunspot being on the side of the Angels, while Courtney Ross still being on her own side, a side which harbors no good for the X-Men. Sage and Roberto, and Courtney and Viper, as the two rulings factions of the Hellfire Club.

After losing Storm to the Black Panther, Nightcrawler was to be the team's leader.

[jrnewto]

Was Viper’s desire to become prince to the crimelords of Madripoor (cf. Wolverine #127) connected to Farouk’s base previously running out of there? Was something perhaps left behind by Farouk that Viper was desperate to get a hold of?

What was Farouk up to setting up base in a location he would have known was Logan’s old stomping ground?

Just what does Madripoor have to do with all of this? It was also the location where Strucker and the Hand began their alliance which led to the formation of Hydra, and where Natalia Romanova almost became their master assassin before Elektra.

[Luke Heller]

Originally Posted by Lord Morbid

I don't understand why Claremont had all these signs insinuating a connection between Maddie and Jean, without having intended for there to be a connection. Not only does she look exactly like her, but she falls for Scott wuickly enough, was the only survivor of a fiery plane crash the same day Jean died on the moon, and even Storm saw some Phoenixy portent in Japan before meeting her.

I'll field this question since I spoke with Mr. Claremont about this very topic a few years ago while at a Convention.

Maddie was supposed to be your average everyday red-head. Her nigh-identical appearance to Jean and all the Phoenix-bird manifestations were all put in by him to be red herrings to the readers.

CC told me he was having fun with his readers to keep them guessing. His original plan for Maddie and Scott was that they were to wed and live happily ever after in Alaska. Nathan was to be born and it wouldn't be revealed for many years if he would be or wouldn't be a mutant. My interpretation of CC's response was that Nathan would be a normal, healthy baby who was going to grow up just as normal. Or, as normal as one can grow up in a world populated by super heroes/villains.

Scott would go back to the X-Men about once a year or once every two-three years for a mission. He would then go back home to Alaska after the mission was over.

CC wasn't sick and/or tired of Scott. CC had to put Scott on a hiatus because he wanted to further develop Storm's character as an emerging leader. CC also told me that he wanted Scott to have a happy ending that he so deserved after all he had been through over the years.

Oh! And just because Scott fell in love with Maddie because she is a red-head means nothing. As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to go for blondes more than any other hair-colored women.

Heck! Wolverine goes for red-heads, too. This tied in with his love for Rose.

Scott loved Jean and therefore he will be more susceptible to falling in love with another red-head.

There is nothing mystical or uncommon about it. It falls under the jurisdiction of basic psychology in ALL humans.

Hey, at least CC was going to write the story. Whereas the poor Alpha Flighters were killed off-panel by Marvel.

[Reign of the Supermen]

Originally Posted by Luke Heller

I'll field this question since I spoke with Mr. Claremont about this very topic a few years ago while at a Convention.

Maddie was supposed to be your average everyday red-head. Her nigh-identical appearance to Jean and all the Phoenix-bird manifestations were all put in by him to be red herrings to the readers.

CC told me he was having fun with his readers to keep them guessing. His original plan for Maddie and Scott was that they were to wed and live happily ever after in Alaska. Nathan was to be born and it wouldn't be revealed for many years if he would be or wouldn't be a mutant. My interpretation of CC's response was that Nathan would be a normal, healthy baby who was going to grow up just as normal. Or, as normal as one can grow up in a world populated by super heroes/villains.

Scott would go back to the X-Men about once a year or once every two-three years for a mission. He would then go back home to Alaska after the mission was over.

CC wasn't sick and/or tired of Scott. CC had to put Scott on a hiatus because he wanted to further develop Storm's character as an emerging leader. CC also told me that he wanted Scott to have a happy ending that he so deserved after all he had been through over the years.

Oh! And just because Scott fell in love with Maddie because she is a red-head means nothing. As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to go for blondes more than any other hair-colored women.

Heck! Wolverine goes for red-heads, too. This tied in with his love for Rose.

Scott loved Jean and therefore he will be more susceptible to falling in love with another red-head.

There is nothing mystical or uncommon about it. It falls under the jurisdiction of basic psychology in ALL humans.

Hey, at least CC was going to write the story. Whereas the poor Alpha Flighters were killed off-panel by Marvel.

Right, but she wasn't just a redhead, she was a ringer for Jean, that's NOT normal. That's borderline obsessed and he can say whatever he wants it was a dangling plot that just got altered by the editors. If she was just some redhead he was moving on with there was no reason to put in the Phoenix connections and make her origins in question. And really, if she was her own character it seems like anyone else would fight like hell to keep her from being retconned into a clone of Jean or worse a clone with a piece of Jean's soul. He wrote that story and basically reduced Maddie from her own character to a piece of Jean during Inferno.

[Luke Heller]

Originally Posted by Congo Jack

Gambit was created by Claremont and Lee, he was just drawn by Mike Collins in his first appearance.

Then I stand corrected.

[jrnewto]

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

What does this parallel with Ahab say about the untold Upstarts storyline that Fitzroy was a part of, with their quest for immortality?

Remember that the Upstart quest for immortality was not necessarily part of Chris’s plan, moreso something grafted on by later X-writers. You’ll recall the Upstarts were initially intended by Chris to be the Wild Boys. But as that name was already taken by Ammo’s gang (from Ann Nocenti’s run on Daredevil), editors ensured it was changed.

Chris’s purpose for the Wild Boys was a deadlier breed of mutants to supplant the then complacent Hellfire Club membership, according to the Shadow King’s will.

The first blatant notion of this occurring was when the Shadow King set the Fenris twins to shoot down the plane being piloted by Cylla Markham. However, Banshee and Forge, not Cylla, were the targets. They were planning to fly to Egypt with her, but decided otherwise just before take-off. His manipulating the Fenris twins to target the plane the pair would make their journey in would seem to suggest his having to prevent Banshee and Forge reaching his place of birth, Egypt… but why? And if Forge got a precognitive flash that it wasn’t safe to board the plane, why would he let his friend, Cylla, head off to certain death?

The Shadow King also tipped off Donald Pierce that Cylla was in need of cyborg body parts. As opposed to the Upstarts’ murder of Pierce, did Chris intend to reintroduce Pierce into the Hellfire Club’s Inner Circle? Pierce had previously challenged Shaw’s leadership of the Club, as its White Bishop, by kidnapping Tessa and trying to assimilate her mental abilities along with those of Professor X. Xavier’s New Mutants defeated Pierce, and the Inner Circle had him secured in a Shaw Industries installation in the Cumberland Highlands of Kentucky.

Tessa later discovers that Pierce has been freed (cf. UXM #245). And who becomes Donald’s first target? Why Logan, of course! When he returns to their Australian headquarters from a leave of absence, he is completely taken by surprise and beaten half-to-death by the Reavers. But he manages to free himself and, with Jubilee’s assistance, escape. But Pierce, thinking Muir Island is his most probable destination, orders the Reavers to take over the island and kill everyone on it.

With the letters page of UXM #229 suggesting that the truth of Gateway will cost the X-Men dearly, it is interesting that, up until UXM #250, he appears to be an ally of the X-Men, yet returns them to their Australian base to fight the approaching Reavers when they are in no shape to do so. Psylocke then experiences visions, a power of hers rarely relied upon during that time, of Gateway gesturing that the only way she can save her team-mates is to send them through the Siege Perilous. This forces her to convince her team-mates, some with a telepathic push, to enter the Siege. Why would Gateway teleport a battered team of X-Men, knowing of the incoming threat of Reavers? Was he also being manipulated by the Shadow King? That is, were Psylocke’s visions manipulated by the Shadow King in a similar fashion to those he had imposed upon Irene Adler which led to her and Raven Darkholme’s evolution into terrorists?

Alternatively, perhaps Gateway did not realise what bad shape the team was in until returning them, and then sent Psylocke those visions knowing she would be the only one capable of getting them out of harms way. But if this was the case, why would he then let Wolverine return there alone?

Of further interest is the similarity of the vision presenting Psylocke as a captor of the Reavers to Cylla Markham’s later transformation at their hands, after they salvaged her from the plane crash they were tipped off to by the Shadow King.

If the Shadow King manipulated Psylocke’s actions, it would explain her later washing up on the shore of a small island in the South China Sea belonging to the Hand, who contacted their Jonin, Matsuo Tsurayaba; another pawn of the Shadow King. Upon being transformed into Lady Mandarin, she captures Logan, who is seeking Landau, Luckman & Lake’s assistance in locating the rest of the X-Men. Handing him over to the Hand’s psychics, they try getting into his head, but his supposed inner control breaks their conditioning (strange when he is still experiencing hallucinations of Nick Fury and Carol Danvers), allowing him to free Psylocke, defeat the Mandarin and flee from Madripoor. Chris intended to reveal, in his Dark Wolverine saga, that Logan had not been as successful as he supposed, and that the Hand planted a subconscious trigger in his mind at this time that would later ensure he became their greatest assassin.

Considering the Shadow King’s manipulation of Fenris, he plotted the alliance between them and the Hand to perhaps set Wolverine upon the path to become the Hand’s assassin, and thus losing his adamantium skeleton. Why else would he convince Donald Pierce that Logan had fled to Muir Island when Pierce would know full well that the most likely place Logan would head to his is reserve base of operations, Madripoor!

The Shadow King also ensures Psylocke will lead the team through the Siege, knowing it will drop her into the clutches of the Hand (whose Jonin he is manipulating) who will go on to use her in capturing and testing Logan. He also ensures Lady Deathstrike allows Logan and Jubilee to escape without letting Pierce know, setting in motion her later encounter where she will rip out his heart, leaving his body to be retrieved by the Hand so they can retool him into their Assassin.

One further clue as to the Shadow King being behind Psylocke’s actions is Colossus coming out of the other side of the Siege with no memory of his time as an X-Man, making him much more vulnerable for the Shadow King’s possession of him.

I always come back to the words of Colonel Vazhin of “there existing… an operative identified only as the Shadow King… the ultimate power broker, who excelled at playing all sides against the middle, working simultaneously for every great power on the globe.. somehow making himself indispensable to each… that none dare take action against him.”

A repercussion of Wolverine’s transformation would be Jean Grey’s secret infiltration of the Hand. Perhaps this is what the Shadow King was up to all along – luring Jean into the Hand’s clutches to be transformed into the Dark Phoenix once again, and then be used to do what he had previously failed to – destroy the M’Kraan Crystal thus merging the N’Garai universe with our own.

As for Trevor Fitzroy’s retooling as an Upstart, with my suggestion that his plot was rewritten from that intended for Ahab’s return, this would seem to suggest that Ahab was intended as another of Chris’s Wild Boys. Not necessarily, but let me suggest how it could be played out.

What with the intended suggestion of the Shadow King being responsible for the Hounds, would he, upon becoming aware of Ahab when torturing Rachel (cf. unpublished Rachel Grey mini), eventually propose an alliance to bring the “Days of Future Past” reality to bear upon the X-Men’s then current reality. Imagine how Chris’s Mutant War would have then played out! The Shadow King may have permanently died from this battle, but he would take his ultimate revenge by destroying Charles’s dream right in front of him. Possessing Forge, he impels Mystique who assassinates Robert Kelly. In typical Claremont pathos, Ororo exorcises the Shadow King from Forge, killing both in the process. But Xavier dies in the knowledge that mutant-human relations are irreparable, and the war between humans and mutants he had worked so hard to curb is now inevitable. What remains of his X-Men are left to face the new breed of deadlier mutants fostered by the Shadow King, in addition to the “unstoppable” Sentinels humanity unleashes as a result of Kelly’s assassination.

With the suggestion of there being something unsettling about the above actions of Gateway, was the truth behind Gateway Technologies that it was one more tool of the Shadow King’s through which he manipulated Widget’s creation, thus ensuring young Colin McKay would be shifted to Jasper’s reality where he would become Master of the Hounds?

Originally Posted by spam

Thanks for all that man. I'm only halfway through this thread and I had to stop and post here and thank you for spending the time to put all that into text… Anyway, back I go to lurking, but this time with an even longer list of back issues to dig up.

Cheers.

I hope you’re still enjoying plumbing the depths of Claremont’s Abandoned Plots.

Originally Posted by Lord Morbid

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.

If you email me at jrnewto@fastmail.fm, I’ll send you my extensive theory, as opposed to putting the board through that excruciating experience again;-)

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

The concept of Mystique/Forge/Storm I find interesting. Didn't you state that Nightcrawler was supposed to be the Shadow King's son? And obviously, the Shadow King has an old interest in Forge and Storm.

Well noted.

I still like your idea of the Shadow King’s interest in holy leaders of indigenous cultures.

Speaking of Storm, who was the Goddess, the Bright Lady, she was always referring to?

Askani also cried out “Merciful Bright Lady” (cf. X-Factor #66, p. 27).

Storm considered it to be Roma, who refuted this upon being interrogated by Ororo in UXM #229. So who might it be?

Was it the Phoenix Force perhaps approaching them, as it had done with Jean Grey when she held the dying Annie Richardson in her arms?

When the team battled Horde to save the whole of humanity, Storm, in the Citadel of Light and Shadow, enters the room where the Crystal of Ultimate Vision is housed, and senses “such power, a majesty.. an awful glory.. I have felt only once before” (cf. Uncanny X-Men Annual #11, p.32). The burning question then becomes: when and where was it that Ororo had previously sensed this power?

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

IMO, the core of your question deals with policies in the 1990's that taught fans to think of Xavier as a Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi type.

When Magneto claimed Genosha, I thought it would have been interesting to explore him as a mutant equivalent of Nelson Mandela, since Chris originally intended Genosha as analogous to South Africa, what with its apartheid at the time.

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

How much did the Wildboys know of the Shadow King? If they knew of his vunerability to metal and Adamantium was indeed their ultimate prize, would they then try and kill him??

Well noted!

Recall that the Neuri showed Wolverine that he can perceive the plane that Meggan taps into and possibly tap this power if it weren’t for his adamantium skeleton. So although his skeleton keeps him alive it also deprives him of an incredible state of enlightenment.

Also worth noting is how Magik’s Soulsword could affect Kitty while she was phasing, cutting her cheek (cf. UXM #171), moreso when compared with how Sabertooth’s adamantium-coated claws wind Viper, despite Kitty phasing her just in time? This would seem to suggest that adamantium has analogous properties to Magik’s Soulsword, since it similarly can cut through souls, as suggested by Shadowcat when she is armed with adamantium claws in Wolverine #128.

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

In light of your statements about Selene, she was to bestow immortality on the winner of the Upstarts game. I'm not sure how Selene would do this, but perhaps she would have bestowed immortality upon Dani Moonstar or whoever she chose as a protégé.

I would tend to agree.

With regard to my idea of Chris intending Logan as the true Fenris Wolf, according to legend the parent besides Loki was the evil witch, Gullveig, who was stabbed and burned three times by the Asgardians, arising from the flames each time.

This would seem to suggest she was a previous possessor of the Phoenix Force.

If you then consider my revelation that Selene was a previous host for the Phoenix, does this make her Logan’s other parent?

Originally Posted by Luke Heller

Well, CC mentioned last year on the UXM Thread that he had always meant for Emma to be the embodiment of the perfect woman.

There was a rumour circulating that Chris originally intended the White Queen to be a man projecting his idealised image of himself onto others.

It was suggested that he was playing with this idea once again through Elias Bogan, and his collection of “all things Nova Roma” might have been suggesting he was Selene in disguise.

Originally Posted by Luke Heller

The Destiny's Diaries story was to be an ongoing lengthy story arc that would involve the group of X-Men that were on the run from Mr. Sinister and his Summers Clan after they would've taken over the X-Mansion.

I personally managed to put the pieces of Mr. Sinister leading the Summers Clan together through high-altitude mapping. Thanks for confirming. What lead me to this was realising that Sinister’s title was referring to his bastard status within the Summers family.

It is interesting, when considering that Chris subbed Stryfe for Mr. Sinister in his planned arc with the X-Men on the run from the Summers Clan, that Psylocke was able to clean his clock in the 2001 Annual when Chris had previously shown Mr. Sinister, in Uncanny #243, defeating Betsy on the astral plane, something not even the Shadow King had been capable of.

Originally Posted by Mr. Sinister

In Uncanny #110 Warhawk (Mitchell Tanner) was later revealed to have been working for the Hellfire Club, as seen in X-Men (1st series) #129. He planted a bugging device which they used to spy on the X-Men for many months to come. while doing this, he is seemingly psychically attacked and forced to do so, and refers to this psychic as master. To me, it seems this person was meant to be the Shadow King, yet again showing that he was the true master of the Hellfire Club. I'm not sure if any of this was posted yet, but this can easily be seen as evidence that CC did in fact have the Shadow King, or the prototype or idea for him in charge of the Hellfire Club. What does everyone have to say about this?

The Official Index to the X-Men (graphic album format)#6 reveals that Warhawk was employed by Shaw, on behalf of the Hellfire Club. Warhawk himself didn’t know who his nameless, faceless master was. His master used psychic attacks, presumably performed by Mastermind, under the influence of the Shadow King. This information was first given by Mastermind in Uncanny X-Men#129 (“Your man Warhawk did his bugging well.”)

Of further interest, the original Atom Smasher’s assassin was meant to be Warhawk from the beginning. Whilst they never got around to revealing it, the assassin used Warhawk’s trademark “Bo’”, and the story was written by Chris.

I recall believing from Black Goliath that it was the Kingpin who’d hired Atom Smasher’s assassin, however, noted that the guy had rings on every finger, which Kingpin didn’t.

Despite the story in Marvel Fanfare I #3, later attempting to resolve the mystery, there’s nothing to say that the shadowy “Kingpin” figure calling the shots in the Black Goliath series wasn’t Farouk, indulging his physical appetites, transforming his hosts body into a morbidly obese form.

[John H]

Originally Posted by jrnewto

I still like your idea of the Shadow King’s interest in holy leaders of indigenous cultures.

Speaking of Storm, who was the Goddess, the Bright Lady, she was always referring to?

So would Red Lotus and Thunderbird III maybe have been (in time) eligible for this list, along with Forge, Storm, Dani Moonstar and Gateway?

[Lia Brown]

Originally Posted by peeper

About Nightcrawler and gypsies - I read something interesting long ago that stuck with me - I don't remember by whom and I don't even remember where, so this is very loose, but presumably, the person in question knew a thing or two about the Roma and said that in real life, Margali would probably have been ostracized from the Gypsy community for housing a demon. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I don't know about the demon aspect, but due to centuries of persecution, they do tend to be a bit 'us vs them'. They have a lot of cleanliness and purity rules (a bit like Old Testament purity laws), and if I recall correctly, they don't consider outsiders to be pure/clean.

[jrnewto]

Since Chris revealed the Wendigo transformation as a Curse of the Elder Gods (i.e. the N’Garai), I wonder what would was behind their motivation in mystically transferring this curse to the body of Bruce Banner?

[Dr. Noh]

Re. Rogue:

To Marty P & Luke Heller:

I wondered about Rogue's future in regards to anything.

The main reason Rogue joined the X-Men was to get help for her powers, which she never got at all. Was this ever going to be dealt with?? Since Rogue's powers helped destroy Carol Danver's life, IMO it would be a good idea for her to get better control over them.

Only after reading this thread in X-Fan did I ever realize that Chris Claremont was going to set up a Rogue/Gambit romance. So since Magneto was still on the scene, I wondered if he would have played any part in this story, if anything. And apparently writers took so much from Chris Claremont's other plots, I can now state I don't know for sure where some of the X-Men plots came from anymore.

To Ann Nichols:

I thought the OHOTMU listed Rogue's real name as unknown, with "Anna Marie" as an alias? If I'm wrong then, sorry.

Re. Wolverine:

Was there any more info regarding Wolverine working with Carol Danvers and Nick Fury?

Re. Bishop's questions in XXM #20:

How come all the questions/discussion Bishop had in XXM #20 wasn't communicated to Storm in X-MEN #109, where IMO it would have been more appropriate?? I'm still trying to figure out what Bishop's reasons were to have joined the X-Treme X-Men.

Re. Dead Mentors???:

After I thought about the "famous" pictures for the unseen X-Teams of the 1990's: Storm's team with: Wolverine, Beast, Guido, Jubilee, Forge, Rogue and Psylocke(Magneto overshadowing) -- Cyclops's team with: Gambit, Jean Grey, Archangel, Iceman, Colossus (Xavier overshadowing).

Judging by the way Xavier and Magneto's heads were positioned over the teams (in "black and white", in sort of an "homage" way), and with the info here about the Shadow King, were Magneto and Xavier supposed to be dead by the time these new teams were created?

Especially since Magneto was revealed to have fought the Shadow King (re. UXM #275) around the time much foreshadowing was done with the Shadow King anyway? Would Magneto have played a part in Xavier's battle with the Shadow King and they both would have died against him?? And if so, why those two and not any other X-Men??

-- Dr. Noh

[Scott Havok]

Dr. Noh, is there a link to those images you are refering to?

[Marty P]

There obviously seem to be some posts missing here, and I'll try to get them back in here as soon as possible.

I will only re-post those that are actually interesting for this thread (so no 'this thread rules!' or 'this thread sucks!' kind of posts)

[Jonah Hex]

In a way,we almost lost a year's worth of posts in the Claremont thread..which was a disaster. But it could not be helped.

In order to jump start discussion.I remember david r mentioning new Abandoned Claremont Plots.

What does Claremont think of fans thinking of his plots and what could have been?

[david r]

As for new abandoned plots, I think the current Die By The Sword mini was planned for Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run. Specifically because during the House of M crossover (UXM #462-465, "Season of the Witch") Mad Jim Jaspers reappeared in our universe during the dimensional chaos caused by the Scarlet Witch.

We know CC never does anything without a plan in mind, so I suspect he re-introduced James Jaspers in "Season of the Witch", as the seed for a later story. The story that now we're seeing in Die By The Sword. But it was originally planned for Uncanny X-Men, post-#474.

[neling4]

Mr. Claremont,

First I would like to say how much I enjoy your work. I began reading the Uncanny X-Men about the time that you began to write them.

My question is about the End of History arc, beginning with Uncanny X-Men #444. How did you intend for the Logan/Ororo/Kurt love triangle to end? Did you intend for Ororo to marry the Black Panther? Also, what were your plans for Kurt and Rachel?

Thank you very much for your time.

neling4

P.S. I posted this same question elsewhere, but I thought perhaps you might be more likely to see it here, so if it looks familiar, that is why. Thanks again.

[Marty P]

First part of the deleted posts.
I tried to watch out for posts that quote someone else, so I'm sorry if some slipped through. That said, this thread has lost MUCH more then I thought, and I stop quoting each and every one. Next post will just have a big rundown of what was posted, without quote tags between posts.

Originally Posted by Chris Day

wow, a second thread... maybe we should list as many of Claremont's abandoned plots as possible to promote further discussion while we're still on the first page...

Originally Posted by david r

Was that a hint for me??

1) Dark Wolverine: Wolverine gets his heart ripped out by Lady Deathstrike in the heat of battle. Logan dies, and stays dead until Uncanny X-Men #294, when he is resurrected as the Master Assassin for the Hand. The X-Men must count him as a deadly adversary. Wolverine does the Hand's dark deeds, unleashing the inner beast like never before.

Jean Grey secretly infilitrates the Hand to try to break the Hand's spells. To find the Logan buried within him, Jean allows herself to be seduced by Logan. This breaks off the rapport between Cyclops and Jean Grey, with long-term implications for their later relationship. Finally, a major confrontation occurs between Wolverine and the X-Men. In a major physical fight pitting Wolverine against Colossus, Peter Rasputin rips out Wolverine's claws from their roots! The Hand fit Wolverine with new claws, they work only sporadically. Plus, the adamantium within Wolverine begins to "seep" out all over his body. In the end, Logan must stand and confront the inhuman monster that he has become--Logan would battle himself over the goodness of his soul, the warrior of his soul fighting this demon he has become ,and he would win. The adamantium would flake off and he would stand reborn as a totally natural being. His bones and claws would be virtually unbreakable.

2) Shadow King Epic: Chris Claremont's original plans for the Shadow King epic did not stop at the Muir Island Saga. They weren't meant to lead all the way to Uncanny X-Men #300. The evil Shadow King would take possession of key members of the Hellfire Club (Selene, Emma Frost and Sebastian Shaw) and manipulate them. He had taken control of Donald Pierce (see XXM Annual #1) and therefore controlled the Reavers in Australia. He mind-controlled Moira McTaggart and through her, controlled the Muir Isle Mutants. The Shadow King had operatives within the U.S. government (including Carol Danvers) and was maneuvering them into position.

Plus, Senator Robert Kelly was going to make a Presidential bid in 1992 (the year this story would play out.) Elements of Kelly's story were later shown in Dream's End. But the most dire threat of all was the Shadow King would have captured Gateway and thru the mysterious Aboriginie, was trying to access Dreamtime. If the Shadow King gained access to Dreamtime, he would be nearly unstoppable. Claremont wanted to stack the cards so heavily in the SK's favor, it would take nearly every living X-Men to stop him. An epic three years in the making.

Claremont has said he wanted the world to come to the brink of war between humans and mutants, with the Shadow King at the heart of it. He would be stoking the flames of racism and hatred for his own ends and desires. The horrible nightmarish world dreamed of in Days of Future Past seemed to be poised to happen. This would all culminate in Uncanny X-Men #300 when Charles Xavier would make a final stand against the Shadow King. Possibly, the SK would be using Legion against Xavier. Somehow, Xavier would stop and kill the Shadow King once and for all. But Charles would face the ultimate sacrifice...his life. In his place, Gateway and a reluctant Magneto would take up the mantle

3) The Neo: There was much more to the 2000 Neo storyline than we ever saw. The X-Men were to attack them at their church hideout, and then chase them to their homebase, hidden within the Savage Land. As Chris Claremont said in his Comics Scene 2000 interview: "The primary villains are called the Neo, who are, for want of a better term, a group of the ultimate mutants who have co-existed secretly with humanity for a very long time. They may even be the source of many of the legends of faerie and shape-shifting.

4) Zaladane: While the Neo storyline played out, Claremont also would begin massive earthquakes that were rocking Genosha. Causing major head-aches for Genosha's leader, Magneto. Once the X-Men enter the Savage Land chasing the Neo, they would discover there a resurrected Zaladane. She would have become an earth-oriented character, who can control the tetonic plates the way Lorna Dane controls gravity. She is the cause of Genosha's earthquakes, seeking vengeance on Magneto for killing her in Uncanny X-Men #275.

5) Chris Claremont's original idea for Psylocke was to have her die by Vargas' sword in X-Treme X-Men, only to return in her original British body. In this way, Claremont could erase the Crimson Dawn and other character elements from her. Claremont also proposed resurrecting Colossus in XXM, but this was all nixed by Joe Quesada and "Dead is Dead".

6) Nightcrawler was to be the "child" of Destiny and Mystique Destiny was the "mother" and Mystique the "father". Mystique would abandon him after child-birth because of his appearance. She then suffers a nervous breakdown, mental collapse.

More to follow.

Originally Posted by daithi

7) Rachel Grey has no Father!: In Excalibur (1st Series) Moira discovers unusual anomalies in Rachel's DNA. If Claremont had continued with Excalibur it would have been revealed that Rachel would be the daughter of Jean Grey and the Phoenix with no father. This would result in the Phoenix Trinity of the Mother, the Daughter and the Phoenix.

Originally Posted by david r

Date : Nov 17, 2006 04:12 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

8) Chris Claremont's original plans for Gambit were he was to join the X-Men, but later stand revealed as a traitor. Remy and Mr. Sinister are connected in an unusual way. Both are the bizarre byproducts of a young mutant child Cyclops met at the orphanage. Gambit is the "positive" side, while Sinister is the "negative" side. The young boy is 8 years old, but ages only 1 for every 10 years. Gambit would have been manipulated by Sinister for his own devious schemes.

9) The Summers School of Mutants: Claremont's plans for 2001, post-Revolution, had Charles Xavier being "evicted" from his School. The takeover is the masterplan of Stryfe, who changes the name of the School and controls Cyclops, Cable, Jean Grey, Rachel Summers, Havok, and possibly Nate Grey. They pretend to be the "Good Guys" in X-Men, while the Uncanny X-Men team are the "Bad Guys" and outlaws, on the run & searching for Destiny's Diaries.

10) X-Men: Year Zero: Chris proposed this mini-series to deal with the time frame between Charles Xavier losing his legs and X-Men #1 (1963). Origins of his relationship with Sage , Sebastian Shaw, his recruitment of Jean , their adventures together, back-story concerning Logan and his gradual decision to form the X-Men. Marvel passed on the proposal.

11) Neal Schaara, or Thunderbird III, was intended to be the male opposite of the Phoenix. Neal would have had a different name, possibly Agni.

12) Claremont's 1990s Plans: Following the Shadow King story and the death of Charles Xavier, CC wanted the X-Men to find themselves in a far more dangerous world than ever before. Villainous mutants were willing to be more ruthless and lethal than previously. They were willing to go to far greater lengths to achieve their evil goals, and the cost in human lives would not matter. Could the good mutants withstand this threat??

Also, he wanted to show mutants used by the human population, like commodities. Mutants would be traded and sold as objects by corporations or powerful individuals, to be used for their own ends. (We saw some of this with the origin of Omega Red.)

Charles Xavier's death would have had deeper implications. Claremont felt it was time for the X-Men to "grow up." Just like when a parent dies and the children must face the world on their own, and sink or swim, Chris felt it was time for Xavier's Students to face the world without the Dreamer there to guide the way. Could the X-Men and the pursuit of Xavier's Dream survive in a dangerous world WITHOUT Charles Xavier there to lead them??

Originally Posted by jdh

Actually this really plays into the exploartaion and examination of Nightcrawlers powers in Excalibur (with the Warpies and the Underground complex and the RCX(?)). They said he had some sense of prediction of something. It was a very thorough look at Nightcrawlers powers that I thought really tied into aspects of his two biological parents' powers as well.

Originally Posted by david r

13) X-Men: Shadowcat--Captains Courageous: Before Mekanix, Chris Claremont proposed this Kitty Pryde mini; she would go on an alternate-Earth, alternate dimension adventure with a bunch of Captain Britains. The story would be about a madman trying to conquer the multiverse, universe by universe, dimension by dimension. Another title was "Dimension X".

14) Re-Animator: In 2000, Claremont planned for two new X-Men. One was Thunderbird III, and the other was an Asian female originally named Re-Animator. She did briefly appear as the character Sketch. She would have been a comic book artist whose creations can come to life.

15) Psylocke/Jean Grey Connection: As Claremont says in his Comics Scene 2000 interview, "In the X-Men Annual, we're going to find out what happened in the six-month gap to Phoenix and Psylocke, to answer the question, 'If Psylocke has her psychic powers back, where's the Shadow King?' Well, we're going to find out, not only in the annual, but in a mini-series I'm setting up for late in the year. And, we have some plans for the fall that I'm not at liberty to discuss, but they're pretty darned cool!"

16) Claremont/Byrne plans Chris Claremont and John Byrne planned in their run together, to have Wolverine and his love Mariko become engaged. At the day of their wedding, in front of X-Men and friend alike, Sabretooth would leap out at the altar and slash Mariko into shreds. Wolvie and 'Tooth would fight it out, but Creed would escape. Meanwhile, Mariko would survive the initial assault but be hospitalized with grave wounds. Jean Grey, trying to aid Logan in his despair, would psychically help Logan enter Mariko's consciousness. Logan would realize that she is completely brain dead. Nothing left of his lover remained. Logan would then flip off the life-support system keeping Mariko alive. He would say, "She ain't meat." And walk out.

Wolverine would then go on a hunt to find and avenge her death. His quest: to capture and kill his father, Sabretooth! And he would be succesful in killing Sabretooth, once and for all.

More Claremont/Byrne ideas: Another lost Byrne/Claremont plot was the fall-out of Dark Phoenix, as originally envisioned. If Jean Grey :jean: had indeed lived, but lost the Phoenix Force, Chris and John had planned for Uncanny X-Men #150 in which Magneto would capture Jean Grey. But his plan would be to offer her back the Phoenix Force. She could wield the supreme power again. Apparently, the attraction of all-ultimate power would be very seductive to Jean still. Plus, John Byrne has stated that he and Claremont planned for Magneto to do something so despicable and heinous in #150, that Erik could NEVER EVER be redeemed again.

Originally Posted by david r

This is a quote from Chris Claremont about Mystique

18 Another lost X-Treme X-Men story; Forge, Dani Moonstar and Rahne were to appear in XXM. And with Rachel Summers, have a story that explored Amerindian mythology.

19) Chris Claremont told our own Luke Heller at a convention that he had planned the Destiny's Diaries plot back in 1989! It would have happened in the early 1990s and been the fall-out of Destiny's death in Uncanny X-Men #255.

20) Excalibur's Lost Arcs: The Xavier/Magneto version of Excalbur had several missing arcs. One was titled Kill Charley and was about Genoshan survivors finding out who destroyed Genosha. And blaming Charles for it. Next was Food Fight which told of the lack of supplies and food on Genosha, and what some people were willing to do about it.

Also, Chris had plans to turn Magneto back into a "bad guy". His magnetic powers were causing negative effects on his brain. There was no mind-control being done by Charles Xavier. (Charles was to get a romantic lover, as well!)

21) Chris pitched a major story arc picking up right at the end of Grant Morrison's run which opened with Jean Grey finding herself back in Jamaica Bay. The X-Men have killed Magneto, and she is believed dead. From that point, she starts a new life, wholly divorced from the old, trying to discover for herself where the Bird ends and the Woman begins. It was all about Jean.

Originally Posted by Lia Brown

I would have liked to have seen that then. It's always bugged me that there wasn't a lot of fallout/exploration about the deaths and injuries in that story.

Originally Posted by david r

22) X-Treme X-Men:

The original arc structure for the Claremont/Larroca X-Treme X-Men was to go from Vargas' intro & Psylocke's death in Spain to the Savage Land. The Savage Land was to be a Beast arc, where he starts his own odyssey through his personal Hell, discovering that his name is more than a mere description) and from there (after leaving a hint as to the third arc, namely the discovery of the Starjammer-all 12 miles of her-mostly buried in the ice cap), to the Zaladane/Magneto arc.

And from there, to Sh'iar space. Along the way in space, the X-Treme Team were going to have to team up with Vargas, which could lead to some serious complications/repercussions for Storm.

The first year of XXM was meant to be Beast-centric. Betsy's death was the first arc, Beast the second and third.

Sixteen Million: Following "Intifada" was originally meant to be a four-part high adventure titled "Sixteen Million". The X-Treme X-Men visit a country in central Asia that has been taken over and is now wholly ruled by a quartet of mutants, bent on exacting revenge for the 16 million mutants killed on Genosha by Cassandra Nova. The arc was meant to be fun, a variation of "The Man Who Would Be King" and Arabian Knights.

District X: District X was a spin-off story of Claremont's planned for X-Treme X-Men. It was to be set in a mutant populated area of Brooklyn, which Bishop as the main character.

Storm: The Arena was never intended as an X-Treme X-Men arc. It was announced in 2001 as a mini-series, but artist Igor Kordey took forever finishing it. Then it morphed into a giant-sized graphic novel, but that was also abandoned in favor of finding a home in the continuity of the XXM series.

Originally Posted by fishtaco

Cool. I didn't know that he confirmed this.

...(Charles was to get a romantic lover, as well!)Who?


I just noticed something. Is "The Director" from X-Men: The End supposed to be Dr. Hanover from Classic X-Men #42? I don't know where to find Sean Chen.

Originally Posted by david r

23) Current Uncanny X-Men Run: Chris Claremont has said that he and artist Chris Bachalo had a ton of ideas for the book.

A Federally-mandated member was going to join Uncanny X-Men with #475. This person would have made Psylocke's head explode!!

Claremont hinted that events leading to X-Men: The End would have occured in UXM. Leading up to #500; events like the outer space war that leads to Storm becoming incapacitated and the extinction of the Brood.

He was setting up something big with the Hellfire Club. Especially with the duality within. Sunspot being on the side of the Angels, while Courtney Ross still being on her own side, a side which harbors no good for the X-Men. Sage and Roberto, and Courtney and Viper, as the two rulings factions of the Hellfire Club.

After losing Storm to the Black Panther, Nightcrawler was to be the team's leader.

Originally Posted by jdh

Maybe Amanda Voight? I don't know. Who was suppose to show up in the book - Sabra?

Originally Posted by fishtaco

Sabra made a brief appearance (with Lifeguard and Thunderbird) in #5. I don't think Amelia Voght was going to be it.

Now that I think about it, and I really don't like this but it may not be true, but I think it was going to be Callisto. Remember that kiss in #5? I really wouldn't have liked that....

Originally Posted by jdh

Ewww! Tentacle-arms Callisto Flockhart. That's so nasty.

Originally Posted by fishtaco

But on another site (I no longer have it's URL), it says...
When Warlock was first introduced, he was a creation of Bill Sienkiewicz and fairly obviously influenced by the deranged cartoons of Ralph Steadman.

Originally Posted by jdh

Does anyone know if Vargas was inspired by the character of the same name from a "Touch of Evil" movie?

Originally Posted by fishtaco

I just found the 1996 interview that David R had but lost. It's posted here...
http://www.seriejournalen.dk/sj_indhold.asp?ID=32

By the way, what was going to happen in UXM #'s 278-280 and XFA #'s 69-70? Claremont says that the relaunch was going to start in XM 2 and UXM 281 (with XM 1 as an intro issue where the X-Men would have split into two teams), but what was going to happen before this? Were the X-Men going to go to Muir Island or Westchester? Guido Carosella was at the mansion with X-Factor when Lila ported Storm's team away to space. Guido was going to be an X-Man. So was Colossus, who was also in New York. But if they were going to New York, then what would have happened on Muir Island? What was going to happen to Stevie Hunter (I think she was going to die)? What were these issues about?

Originally Posted by jrnewto

And yet on June 16th, 2003 in the General Questions for Chris Claremont thread, Chris posits in relation to Nightcrawler that: “Mystique abandoned him because she was totally freaked by this indigo-furred creature with ‘deformed’ appendages and a forked tail! At that point, Mystique had no idea (s)he was a mutant, or a metamorph; (s)he simply reacted as many normal folks would in similar circumstances.”

Hence, if Mystique didn’t know (s)he was a mutant when Kurt was born, this would have made her a male from birth, since long before Kurt’s birth, in the True Friends LS, Mystique is portrayed as a man working alongside Destiny and Wolverine during the World War 2. If as Chris states Mystique didn’t know (s)he was a metamorph when Kurt was born, (s)he couldn’t have known during the above mission, since her powers hadn’t manifested at this stage (meaning she was born male, and metamorphed into a female later).

Originally Posted by fishtaco

Claremont also explained that Mystique had the appearance of a male during World War II because back then, a woman being a detective is unheard of. Raven and Irene didn't want any unneeded attention.

Originally Posted by jrnewto

But if, as Chris notes, Mystique was not aware at the time of Kurt's birth that (s)he was a metamorph, her powers can't have manifested before this. Otherwise (s)he'd begin asking questions like: "hmm, I wonder how I changed sex like that". (S)he had previously worked alongside other mutants as show in True Friends, so I think (s)he would have made the connection.

Chris's comments I quoted from that thread therefore indicate that Mystique had not manifested her metamorph ability prior to his birth, so when little Kurt popped out of Irene, his being blue, furry, etc. made Mystique freak and abandon the child. It must have then been after this event that his/her power manifested, since prior to this in True Friends (s)he had been shown as a male.

Originally Posted by Marty P

Let's not forget that Claremont changes his mind in between A LOT.
That also seems the case with Mystique.

Originally Posted by Dr. Noh

1. How was it that Detective InspectorTerri Baltimore, who only worked on "property crimes" in Australia, got to work in the "Texas White House" in XXM #31? Just why was she there and how did she get assigned there?

2. What ever happened to the fact that Callisto had the codes for Xavier's underground complex (re. UXM #254)? When did she become so trusted? Although Masque requests the codes from Callisto, he and other Morlocks invaded the mansion's basement around this time (in other books not written by Chris Claremont).

2a. What was Chris Claremont's explanation as to how Callisto became the "mystery woman" romantically involved with Colossus? Wasn't Callisto a model before becoming a Morlock?

3. Has Storm ever really had a true, lasting romance, as written by Chris Claremont? IMO, she hasn't, and I venture that this is the reason used for removing her from the X-Books. How come Yukio changed Storm's life for the better more than Forge ever seemed to (re. UXM #173)? Did Storm really love Forge? IMO, Forge will always be known as the person who inadvertently removed Storm's powers, and caused the X-Men to sacrifice themselves in Dallas -- so it seems that he did more harm than good to Storm and her team. Forge's feelings for her seemed mixed with guilt over harming her and he wasn't even too proud of his heritage (perhaps due to his acts in Vietnam with the N'Garai). Only when Storm was forced to stay with him in the Adversary's world did she ever admit she loved him.

Originally Posted by fishtaco

Okay. In that interview, Claremont said that his Muir Island story was different from what was published. Since HE referred to it as a Muir Island story, I guess that's where it was going to be. I still don't understand how Rogue and Guido both got over there. It's just random. I know that Magneto wasn't going to be involved in the Muir story. Claremont said that he wasn't really going to be involved in much of anything until Xavier's death. But I think you might be correct about the X-Men believing Farouk dead. That would be interesting, since the X-Men used the same tactic on their enemies as well! Still, I think it would have been rather silly if Farouk just randomly appeared again right before #300. My guess is that the X-Men were going to fight him off of Muir Island, thus freeing Moira, Amanda, Lorna, Theresa, Jamie, Rogue, Tom, Sharon and Guido. Winning the battle, but not yet the war kinda thing. I don't know what was going to happen to Legion, because I'm mostly sure that the Shadow King would have killed Xavier through David's body. David became his host, after all. I'm curious as to what was going to happen to some of these characters. I'm sure Moira, Tom and Sharon were going to stay on Muir. Rogue and Guido I know for a fact were going to join Ororo's team (with Hank, Logan, Betsy, Forge and Jubilee). Liefeld was probably going to pick up Theresa even if the original story was told. Original X-Men rejoining means new X-Factor, which means Louise Simonson is off the book. I doubt anyone but PAD was going to replace. Had PAD wrote X-Factor while Claremont was writing Uncanny and X-Men, I think Claremont would have won over Guido. PAD would have had no trouble picking up Lorna and Jamie, since they weren't being used. I know that PAD fought with Liefeld over Wolfsbane (hence, the character Feral). Quicksilver was available. Havok was available. Val Cooper would not have been, since Claremont was building a story with her. That leaves Amanda. I think Claremont planned to bring Amanda in Excalibur originally. He hinted in that 1996 interview that they had a future together, not to mention their marriage in the Days of Future Past, not to mention that she was actually looking for Kurt and broke in to Brian's lighthouse which led her to getting stuck on Muir in the first place. Of course, Claremont had to drop the book when he left to write both X-Men and Uncanny, so I don't think there was anything special happening for Amanda. I think she would have lost her job as a flight crew manager, since she was missing for so long without any notification. In that case, I suppose she would have just remained on Muir until Claremont or PAD or Simonson or whoever wanted to use her for something.

Originally Posted by Darkchylde

Not to get off the current topic much, because it is interesting, but does anyone know what Claremont's original plans for Illyana were? He made reference to the fact that there was more going on with the whole "eldritch armor" aspect of Illyana's sorcery than was shown, and that the resolution of Magik's storyline (by Louise Simonson in New Mutants # 73) was NOT his plan for the character. I don't believe Claremont has ever discussed his intentions regarding Illyana, because he said it was a moot point (or something to that effect), but if anyone knows otherwise could they please post it here?

Originally Posted by Marty P

Heh, can't believe I never asked this myself.
I'd LOVE an answer about this, especially the armor and why it transferred to Kitty when Illyana died.

Originally Posted by jdh

And why was the Enchantress able to reduce her to an infant but no older than her teenage self?

How does this play into the plans for Illyana? Doesn't seem trivial.

The armor and the anti-ageing seems to say Illyana is protected or can't be manipulated physically.

Originally Posted by Darkchylde

I just know that there were several mysteries surrounding Illyana and her mystical abilities, and I was wondering if anyone knew what Claremont had planned:

1) Illyana/Kitty and the Soulsword connection: just what the heck was up with that?! Claremont stated that he intended to show a deep, karmic relationship between the two; closer than sisters almost. Surely it was leading to something.

2) Illyana's eldritch armor: forget that silly prometheum armor junk that other writers have stated it really is, Illyana's armor had to have been created in the same manner as her Soulsword, right? Just what was CC hinting at waaaaayyy back in NM #21 when Illyana asks herself what'll happen when the armor's complete?

3) Illyana's aging: The Enchantress couldn't age 'Yana past her current teenage self. Why? Was she really that powerful? Was it some sort of Darkchild thing? Portents of things to come?

4) <Fill in the blank here> Anything else anyone is curious about regarding Illyana that CC was supposed to address?

BRING BACK ILLYANA! Her story was just too cool to conclude in the manner it did.

Originally Posted by jdh

It could be to show just how powerful Belsaco's hold over her was, as to why the Enchantress couldn't manipulate Illyana's age.
I had wondered if Illyana was meant to age naturally and that at a certain point (age) she'd become the Darkchilde or something equally as powerful, but it couldn't be forced to happen.

Originally Posted by david r

Magik: The only thing I can say about Illyana is that Claremont had every intention of returning to New Mutants eventually. He originally had no intention of leaving permanently, and Louise Simonson was only an interim replacement.

Originally Posted by jdh

I've always wondered if there was a connection between Jennifer Kale and Illyana "Magik".

Illyana Kale was a distant relative of Jennifer's, who created the Tome of Zhered-Na. A powerful book of magic. Only the combination of a Kale family member and angelic and demonic agents could utilize the Tome.

Illyana is a female Russain name with no English translation. Seems odd to find two characters named Illyana.

Magik being a demon-childe and if she was also a descendant of Kale's would be two-thirds of the combination to unlock the tomb, possess the power.

Kale and Magik were both trained in the mystic arts by Atlantean Sorcerors, Belasco and Dakimh. They both have strong connections to the Elder Gods.

Originally Posted by jdh

Questions about the Shadow King - Has it been stated that Farouk was not his original body? Is he an ancient evil, an elder god like Chthon?
It seems like some lines are blurring between Farouk (a psi) and the Shadow King. Are they seperate, did Shadow King possess Farouk and use Farouk's psi powers?

Originally Posted by david r

The Shadow King has stated he has been around for centuries. Not sure if he's an "ancient evil." He appears to be a spirit, that can possess our physical bodies. We saw him do this in Uncanny X-Men #253. He appears to have possessed Farouk's body, but lost it in his duel with Charles Xavier in UXM #117.

Originally Posted by Marty P

Just a note; He also appeared as Farouk in the X-men: True Friends mini. That took place around WWII.

I have never seen the Shadow King in a body before Farouk.

Originally Posted by jrnewto

I had previously noted this connection and I would posit that Chris had intended to involve her in his Elder God/N’Garai epic intended for Marvel’s planned relaunch of their horror-line in the 1970’s (later squashed), considering he wrote the title she was a supporting character in, i.e. Man-Thing. I suspect he intended to reveal the deal behind the previously unseen Illyana Kale, and when the storyline was quashed, he transplanted his story for her onto Colossus’s sister.

Kale and Magik were both trained in the mystic arts by Atlantean Sorcerors, Belasco and Dakimh. They both have strong connections to the Elder Gods.

Well spotted! Chris’s Elder Gods being, of course, the N’Garai.

I had earlier noted my suspicion that the true sinking of Atlantis had alternatively been due to its inhabitants utilising the black magick associated with the N’Garai, like that associated with Kulan Gath.

Originally Posted by jdh

Jrnewto, I really like to hear anymore thoughts on this. So Magik and Kale are related? There purpose being the same, they are the same means to the same end? If Kale and Kitty Pryde were to meet (or if Kitty were to die or cease to exist) would the sword and armor move on to Kale? Is she a psychic triplet in the Kitty and Magik psychic twins?
What is their connection to Kulan Gath and the N'Garai? Kulan Gath to Belasco? Belasco to Selene?

Originally Posted by jrnewto

We firstly know that Forge was Cheyenne, the Adversary his arch-enemy. The Adversary had also plagued Dani Moonstar’s family, just as he had plagued Forge, turning both of her parents, including Black Eagle, into the Demon Bear. The only family the Adversary had appeared to hound was Dani’s family, and it appears coincidental that the only person outside of Dani’s family he harangued was Forge. Therefore it is not a great leap to infer from this that Chris was laying the groundwork to eventually reveal that Forge was related to Black Eagle, Dani’s father.

I wasn’t saying that. Only that I suspect Chris’s later story related to Illyana Rasputin was originally intended for Kale, until his involvement in Marvel’s 70s horror revival was quashed. His main epic was called “Return of the Elder Gods” and would involve the horror heroes pitted again the N’Garai attempting to reclaim the Earth.

My ultimate dream would be to bring this tale back and finish it, perhaps starting with Iron Fist, revealing that K’un L’un was the last bastion of human civilisation millennia ago, and the role of the Iron Fists was to keep these demons at bay, since this would be the main entry point on Earth for their invasion. The city was shifted out of synch with Earth to plug the hole.

What is their connection to Kulan Gath and the N'Garai? Kulan Gath to Belasco? Belasco to Selene?

No revelation was made by Chris specifically connecting Jen or Illyana to Kulan Gath, however, one of Jen’s enemies, D’Spayre commonly the N’Garai, and demons in Limbo, where Illyana R. ruled included minor N’Garai demons.

No specific connection drawn specifically between Gath and Belasco, but it would be interesting wouldn’t it! Same goes for Belasco and Selene.

[Marty P]

Part two:

Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Dec 13, 2006 07:26 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I've always wondered where CC was going with Kitty and Courtney/Sat-yr-9/Opal Lun Saturnyne/various other incarnations connection. I forget in which issue but pretty early on in Excalibur he hinted that there was some connection between the two. Arg now I want to go back and find what Im talking about, but it was more than just the "friendship".


Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 16, 2006 04:19 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I just came across something big. According to Rivka, Dave Cockrum said that Chris originally intended for Proteus to be the son of Moira MacTaggert and Charles Xavier himself, not Moira and Joe. Mutant X, Professor X. It didn't happen because John Byrne didn't like the idea. Byrne didn't like the idea of a hero like Xavier having a bastard son. Because, you know, Byrne thinks that heroes should be saints who have never made any mistakes in their lives. But that's just Byrne. Of course, Claremont recycled his idea. David Haller, AKA Legion. In 1991, Bob Harras went out of his way to assure the fans that Proteus is Moira and Joe's son period. He even had the character brought back and used for a crossover to prove it. Other than that, nothing Claremont has written yet contradicts this. Uncanny X-Men #'s 165, 389 still match up without any inconsistency. Personally, I'm glad we got what we got. Proteus was great and everything, but he was Moira's failure. Legion was Charles's. Legion proved to be tons more interesting than Proteus, in my opinion, because he stuck around. Proteus couldn't stick around. They had no choice but to kill him. Thoughts on this?

There are 300 different explanations to what happened in the Uncanny Annual, not necessarily involving Rachel not being Scott's daughter.Uh-huh. Did you happen to read it? By Jean/Phoenix I only meant 616 Jean, because 616 Jean IS the Phoenix. Which is why Rachel as the child of Jean and the Phoenix is so confusing to people, like the idea of the Holy Trinity made me go cross eyed as a child.You're speaking in terms of current continuity. Questions about the Shadow King - Has it been stated that Farouk was not his original body? It's highly unlikely that Farouk was his original body. The first meeting between the Shadow King and Faroukm, assuming I'm right, remains a mystery. Just a note; He also appeared as Farouk in the X-men: True Friends mini. That took place around WWII.

I have never seen the Shadow King in a body before Farouk.Ya know, Amahl Farouk, for all we know, could be hundreds of years old. I'm sure the Shadow King has some spells that can keep his host body intact. He may have killed Farouk and animated his body hundreds of years ago. Hence, despite her not saying it aloud, she knows Wolvie is her father, just as Logan knows she is his daughter, which makes his betrayal of her when she tried to execute Selene that much more poignant. He was trying to prevent the dark side of his nature manifesting in his own daughter, because he did not want to see her heading down the destructive path he had. Parents often attempt to prevent their children from making the same mistakes they have.

Finally, in Uncanny X-men #384 the villain, Tullamore Voge, added more oil to the flame as he attacked Jean and Logan on the astral plane in. Both were shown in hound costumes as Tullamore made a comment of mixing their genes just right and the offspring having limitless potential.

This revelation would have added a further dynamic to the enmity between Scott and Logan.I've noticed these hints as well, and it all makes sense and points in the direction Claremont was going. But then he actually stated here that it was never his intention for Rachel to be the daughter of Logan and Jean. So, then, what the heck did all that mean? I look forward to hearing what you come up with. If you want to bounce ideas back and forth, you can email me at jrnewto@fastmail.fmSure. Thanks! You’ll recall there being a lot of contention in the early nineties about Ahab, Master of Hounds, originally being intended as Cable. This initially arose by way of Rictor’s comments in the New Mutants Annual chapter of Days of Future Present. My thoughts at the time were in line with Sunspot’s, that is, that Rictor’s judgement was clouded by his guilt over killing a Hound, and his reluctance to trust Cable (originally raised in New Mutants #89).

Now it could be argued that there was further evidence of Cable being Ahab, when, in X-Men Annual #14 Cable is startled by Ahab’s facial features and the Master of Hounds responds with laughter: “What’s wrong, Cable? See someone you know?”

However, I remember there being more distinct differences in their looks than similarities. Whilst both had similar scars across their right eyes, Cable’s left eye was the bionic one (not his right one, despite his stats from the Marvel Universe Master Edition #3 saying so – the truth was in New Mutants #89, on page 26, and for further evidence one needed to look no further than page 17 of X-Men Annual #14 where Cable’s right eye was blue, and page 18 where Ahab’s left eye was brown), whereas Ahab’s bionic eye was his right one.

I suspect, rather, that Cable had previously known the Master of Hounds, when Ahab was much younger. Seemingly overlooked from this particular encounter is Cable’s genuine look of surprise when he recognises Ahab. Ahab, however, shows little surprise. The only way to interpret such simultaneous reactions would be to expect that Ahab knew Cable would be surprised since he had met Cable when he was younger, hence Cable’s surprised reaction that the earlier version he had known had become the “Master of Hounds”.

Further clues come on page 18 of X-Men Annual fourteen when Ahab says something most interesting in panel 5: he calls Cyclops “laddie-buck”, definitely not indicative of Cable’s speech patterns.

So, you ask, who did they intend the mutant with the gimpy gait to originally be, besides that stupid plot contrivance of Rory over in Excalibur?

One obvious clue was his pattern of greying being analogous to the skunk stripe of Rogue.

As to how Ahab acquired the Scottish accent, recall the child, Colin McKay, who first appeared in early issues of Excalibur as a prisoner of Vixen! He escaped Vixen in Excalibur #2 using a portal opened by Widget (and was later retconned to become Kylun by Alan Davis).

Tweedle-Dope of the Crazy Gang created Widget in the abandoned “Gateway Technologies” plant. Now, whilst the rock structure outside the Gateway Technologies factory looked like Stonehenge, Chris reminded us that the abandoned technology plant is at Loch Daemon in the Scottish Highlands. Young Colin was obviously intended by Chris to be Scottish (note his surname, McKay), and this would seem to fit with Ahab’s idiom “laddie-buck” in his “Uncanny” annual (the other consequence of this revelation would suggest that Rogue’s surname is also McKay).

It was inferred that Colin had a connection to the Jaspers Warp. It is interesting to note that James Jaspers (during Alan Moore’s Captain Britain run) established concentration camps for superhumans. Is this where Colin arrived after coming out the other end of Widget’s portal, where he moved up the ranks to become the Master of Hounds?Alright, look. That's a very neat theory. It's interesting. I like it. But it's just that. It's a theory. That doesn't mean it was actually what Claremont was intending. In fact, a particular writer who was involved at the time informed me that the "What's the matter, Cable? See someone you know?" exchange between Ahab and Cable was inserted by Bob Harras without Claremont's consent. Harras did that a lot. He would insert dialogue that sets up an interesting subplot to keep the fans reading, but he never actually had any intentions behind the dialogue for a story down the road. Another example? Fabian Cortez's comment to Wolverine in X-Men (2nd Series) #1 that hinted that the two of them have a past. Another one from the same issue? That whole Harry Delgado SHIELD/Acolytes mix-up. There was nothing behind that. Just Bob Harras being Bob Harras. He changed dialogue around, and stuff. He did it to Peter David so much that he left the book. I'm sure it was one of the reasons why Claremont left, too. If you'd like, I'll ask Alan Davis what he and Chris planned originally for Colin McKay in Excalibur (1st Series) #2. In fact, I'll also ask him about Gateway Technologies. I was making a joke. The context is that i was saying that there is already a DNA test on panel (and by Mr. Sinister), confirming with 100% sure that Scott is Rachel's biological father, and another poster was saying that someone could question that.Because whatever Lobdell or Casey or Austen or Milligan or Raab or Whedon or Nicieza or Ellis or Mackie or whoever wrote is irrelevent in this thread. None of these writers are Claremont. Hence, their ideas and intentions are different. If you'd like to start a seperate thread to discuss Rachel's genetics, then feel free to do so (or post it in the Rachel thread, actually). And for the record, Rachel's parentage plot in Excalibur isn't as literal as some in this thread are making it out to be. wonder what Claremont's plans for Jenny Ransome were? So many plot threads were dropped when he originally left the book I find it rather obvious that X-Tinction Agenda, while it was a great story, was not what Claremont originally had planned for Genosha. I don't believe that Cameron Hodge was ever meant to be a part of it. I believe that Havok's role would have been very different (as indicated by the foreshadowing in Uncanny X-Men #256). I think he would have been a freedom fighter in Genosha, always on the run. I'm getting the impression that he would have been to mutants like what Moses was to the Hebrews. Leading them away from slavery to freedom. I don't know what Havok would have done afterwards. I believe that Colossus, Jenny Ransome and Phillip Moreau were actually going to be a part of this. Maybe Callisto, too. I don't think it was meant to be a crossover. I don't think that Wolfsbane was going to become a mutate. I know for a fact that had Louise Simonson stayed on the book, the roster would have been Cable, Cannonball, Sunspot, Wolfsbane, Magik, Magma, Warlock, Boom-Boom, Shatterstar (visually different from what we got) and Rictor. I'm not sure if X-Factor was going to be involved. Maybe. Storm was never meant to grow back to her adult state. Not for a long while, at least. I think that the final outcome for the status of the state of Genosha was going to be the same. And yes, I think that mutant supremecists would have came to the island and sack it like some did in X-Men (2nd Series) #'s 1-2. My theory based on some facts for why X-Tinction Agenda happened? I know that Harras and Claremont disagreed on most everything about the direction. Harras believed that (and there really is some truth to this, although I'm not taking his side) the book was drifting too far away from the core concept of mutants dealing with prejudice. I think that Harras looked over the various plots that Claremont had been building up in the Wilderness Era, and chose to do a crossover to focus on the Genosha storyline, because mutants were a central theme in that one.Anyone know what he would have done if he satyed on Uncanny this most recent run?Yeah, there was some stuff that was mentioned. There was the Nightcrawler/Wolverine/Storm/Phoenix rectangle. There was the Hellfire Club with Sage and Sunspot and Viper and Sat-Yr-9 and Selene. There was that "Bean" guy. A federally-mandated member (presumably from O*N*E*) would have joined the team. Him and Psylocke were not going to get along well at all. Wand'ring Star was probably s'posed to be longer. Whatever Claremont's original ending was for The First Foursaken. Storm's more violent nature after The Arena. Encounters with Purity. Something with Mad Jim-Jaspers merged with The Fury. Magma was supposed to be on the team. Cannonball was never meant to leave the team for X-Force. There was probably some stuff planned for him. And maybe Lila Cheney, too. There was going to be a Wolverine mini from that page in Uncanny X-Men #455. This was probably going to reflect on Claremont's original intentions for Landau Luckman and Lake. The Impossible Man was supposed to appear in Uncanny X-Men #'s 460-461, not Mojo and Spiral. Something with Bishop, Val Cooper and Charlotte Jones. I think Forge was supposed to show up at some point. Jubilee after her mini series, too. Thunderbird III and Lifeguard, briefly, and maybe even Slipstream, but that's just speculation. Shadowcat was originally supposed to be part of the team, but instead she went off to be Kitty the Hellfire Slayer. I suspect that Chris would have grafted the Louise Simonson’s plot of the Twelve onto the group that would defeat the Shadow King (or Mr. Sinsiter).I don't think The Twelve was meant to bring in Mr. Sinister or the Shadow King at any point. These were Claremont's characters, The Twelve was Louise's story. The Twelve were the dozen mutants who would one day rise up and lead mutantkind. That can mean a million different things. Unfortunately, Louise or Walter haven't shared any information as to what was going to happen.

On a side note, Walter Simonson informed me that Louise never intended for Cable to be an aged Cannonball. Ever. He said he doesn't know where fans got that from. Liefeld didn't intend for that either.

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[Post 114]
Author : david r
Date : Dec 16, 2006 04:42 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I think I'd heard of that about Claremont and Proteus. Chris seemed to want to connect Moira & Charles more and more. But Byrne got his way.

@Fishtaco, where have you read that Storm was going to stay a young child? I had not ever heard that before.

You know, after reading Fishtaco's list of his aborted plans, I have to wonder if he should ever have returned at all. I so badly wanted him to return to X-Men for years, but if I'd known what a ridiculous mess Marvel would make of his plans, I would have rather he'd stayed away forever.

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[Post 115]
Author : Marty P
Date : Dec 16, 2006 11:39 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Thoughts on this?
Totally agree.
We got two classic stories because of this, instead of one.


Ya know, Amahl Farouk, for all we know, could be hundreds of years old. I'm sure the Shadow King has some spells that can keep his host body intact. He may have killed Farouk and animated his body hundreds of years ago.
There certainly is some proof to this, as he kept the body of FBI agent Reis (sp?) pretty fresh when he died of a heart attack.
I think Forge was supposed to show up at some point.
Yep. CC told us here on CXF (made David R pretty happy too. )


You know, after reading Fishtaco's list of his aborted plans, I have to wonder if he should ever have returned at all. I so badly wanted him to return to X-Men for years, but if I'd known what a ridiculous mess Marvel would make of his plans, I would have rather he'd stayed away forever.
Like I said before; after Revolution, I really think CC writes the X-men for another reason.
He still loves the characters, but they have been mutilated so much by Marvel, that they just don't resemble even a bit what he knew and loved about them.

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[Post 116]
Author : daithi
Date : Dec 16, 2006 05:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Uh-huh. Did you happen to read it?

I did. The whole plot point about Rachel's parentage in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 can be dismissed easily.

Ahab claims that Scott should be able to track Rachel down. He says "Scott is her father" and "not even Rachel's powers" should be able to block him.

However Rachel later on says "Phoenix is just a name to Ahab. He has no idea of what it really means." As Ahab actually stated that a powerful telepath could block his Hounds and that he wasn't aware that Rachel was the most powerful psi on the planet at that point then it can be easily arguged that Scott couldn't track down Rachel because of her power, not her genes.

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[Post 117]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Dec 16, 2006 05:14 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I did. The whole plot point about Rachel's parentage in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 can be dismissed easily.

Ahab claims that Scott should be able to track Rachel down. He says "Scott is her father" and "not even Rachel's powers" should be able to block him.

However Rachel later on says "Phoenix is just a name to Ahab. He has no idea of what it really means." As Ahab actually stated that a powerful telepath could block his Hounds and that he wasn't aware that Rachel was the most powerful psi on the planet at that point then it can be easily arguged that Scott couldn't track down Rachel because of her power, not her genes.

Yep, good theory. Plus, there can be several other reasons, like Scott being unaware he's Rachel's father, she was coming from an alternate reality, or just plain simply she was a Hound, and could have easily escaped from they due to her experience.

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[Post 118]
Author : david r
Date : Dec 16, 2006 05:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Daithi and Alpha Man, it's plainly obvious that the Ahab part of UXM Annual #14 was a major hint about Rachel NOT being Scott's child. You only find ways around it because you personally dislike this concept.

Claremont has stated numerous times about his ideas for Rachel and the Phoenix Force. Your theories do not shoot that down.

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[Post 119]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Dec 16, 2006 09:07 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Im almost positive that Scott knew who Rachel was before Jean came back. So he would have known in the annual that Rachel was his alternate future reality daughter. Even Jean knew and was pissed, but that didnt stop her from saving Rachel by jumping in front of Ahabs harpoon.

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[Post 120]
Author : daithi
Date : Dec 16, 2006 09:10 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Im almost positive that Scott knew who Rachel was before Jean came back. So he would have known in the annual that Rachel was his alternate future reality daughter.

Yes. In Uncanny X-Men Annual #9, when the team goes to Asgard, Hela basically spills the beans on who Rachel is, with Scott right there. However in the UXM Annual #14 there's a line that suggests that Rachel might have erased Scott's memories of that moment.

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[Post 121]
Author : jdh
Date : Dec 17, 2006 12:51 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Was it ever explained what happen to the Jean Grey of Rachel's earth?
And why didn't the Phoenix save Rachel from becoming a Hound? Or prevent it? Or overload the Hound transformation equipment? Why is the Phoenix absent from the Days or Future Past (I guess until Kitty uses the Phoenix Force to send Rachel to the 616?

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[Post 122]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 17, 2006 01:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

@Fishtaco, where have you read that Storm was going to stay a young child? I had not ever heard that before.I haven't actually heard it or read it anywhere, but it's rather obvious, considering that there was a story developing about Storm as a child. From what I saw, it just abruptly ended when she reverted to adulthood in X-Tinction Agenda. Also, Storm was in a similar situation to Mr. Sinister and Gambit, and possibly Orphan Maker, and that was going somewhere. Storm was an adult stuck in a child's body (but not just any body. It was her body). Mr. Sinister was really just a 50-year-old stuck in the body of an 8 year old that ages at a snails pace. I think Gambit was going to kidnap young Storm, like he did to his children and Scott's children in X-Men: The End. From there, some more of the commodity concept.

You know, after reading Fishtaco's list of his aborted plans, I have to wonder if he should ever have returned at all. I so badly wanted him to return to X-Men for years, but if I'd known what a ridiculous mess Marvel would make of his plans, I would have rather he'd stayed away forever.Seriously? I'm glad he came back. Sure it's a mess, but he still gets to tell all these lost stories. Maybe not exactly the way he had them planned, but a lot of the stuff is still there. As fans, we wouldn't know much without a reflection from what he has done since Wolverine (2nd Series) #125 onwards. I think GeNext, Exiles and New Excalibur (though not as much confidence in the last one compared to the first two) are going to be very interesting. There certainly is some proof to this, as he kept the body of FBI agent Reis (sp?) pretty fresh when he died of a heart attack.Good call. I did. The whole plot point about Rachel's parentage in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 can be dismissed easily.I was asking Alpha Man. Im almost positive that Scott knew who Rachel was before Jean came back. So he would have known in the annual that Rachel was his alternate future reality daughter. Even Jean knew and was pissed, but that didnt stop her from saving Rachel by jumping in front of Ahabs harpoon.He may have connected the dots from Hela's comments in Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #9, but it's left unclear. Scott and Jean learn who Rachel really is in X-Factor (1st Series) Annual #5.Was it ever explained what happen to the Jean Grey of Rachel's earth?Excalibur (1st Series) #52 (by Alan Davis) reveals that Jean was killed by a bomb planted by Mastermind. As for what Claremont planned? I'm not sure. I suppose we were just to assume that she was killed by sentinels. And why didn't the Phoenix save Rachel from becoming a Hound? Probably because she didn't become Phoenix yet. Also, Phoenix can be enslaved or controlled, anyway. It happened in Uncanny X-Men #'s 132-134. Also, in Excalibur (1st Series) #5. Why is the Phoenix absent from the Days or Future Past (I guess until Kitty uses the Phoenix Force to send Rachel to the 616?Excalibur (1st Series) #12 (or somewhere around there) establishes that there is only one Phoenix in all the multiverse. Later writers have apparently ignored this, but that's irrelevant.

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[Post 123]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Dec 17, 2006 03:23 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I haven't actually heard it or read it anywhere, but it's rather obvious, considering that there was a story developing about Storm as a child. From what I saw, it just abruptly ended when she reverted to adulthood in X-Tinction Agenda. Also, Storm was in a similar situation to Mr. Sinister and Gambit, and possibly Orphan Maker, and that was going somewhere. Storm was an adult stuck in a child's body (but not just any body. It was her body). Mr. Sinister was really just a 50-year-old stuck in the body of an 8 year old that ages at a snails pace. I think Gambit was going to kidnap young Storm, like he did to his children and Scott's children in X-Men: The End. From there, some more of the commodity concept.

That was probably the idea. I wonder how that would affect his plans, since some people, specially those who are not very familiar with Storm, would have problems taking orders from someone in a 8-year-old body, even if she was actually a grown up woman.


. Also, in Excalibur (1st Series) #5. Excalibur (1st Series) #12 (or somewhere around there) establishes that there is only one Phoenix in all the multiverse. Later writers have apparently ignored this, but that's irrelevant.

All Claremont's pet characters are unique in the multiverse Galactus, Eternity or Death can't be, but the Phoenix, Rachel and the Shadow King are, pretty soon he's going to find a way to make Psylocke or Storm unique too

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[Post 124]
Author : daithi
Date : Dec 17, 2006 04:02 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I was asking Alpha Man.


Sorry but it's a public board. You could have used a PM.


And why didn't the Phoenix save Rachel from becoming a Hound? Or prevent it? Or overload the Hound transformation equipment? Why is the Phoenix absent from the Days or Future Past (I guess until Kitty uses the Phoenix Force to send Rachel to the 616?

Rachel wasn't the Phoenix at that point. Also has Claremont has shown time and time again (and again), there's not a force in the universe that will stop Rachel being mind controlled.

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[Post 125]
Author : david r
Date : Dec 17, 2006 05:49 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Seriously? I'm glad he came back. Sure it's a mess, but he still gets to tell all these lost stories. Maybe not exactly the way he had them planned, but a lot of the stuff is still there.

If Claremont hadn't written anything X-Men after '91, his legacy would be untouchable. He would be revered as the greatest X-Men author, and no one could take him. He's seriously hurt his legacy by returning and bouncing from book to book like a silver ball in a pinball machine.

What has Claremont truly accomplished since his return? How many stories have been left unresolved? How many editors has he gone through? Claremont saw how X-writers were treated by Marvel staff in the 1990s, did he believe HE would be treated any differently?


Rachel wasn't the Phoenix at that point. Also has Claremont has shown time and time again (and again), there's not a force in the universe that will stop Rachel being mind controlled.

I want to touch on the mind-control part of that quote. I recently read the solicitation to his Exiles run and how the team is to be mind-controlled by the Hand, and I nearly rolled my eyes.

Even I must admit-----Chris Claremont has used this "X-Men mind-controlled, attack good X-Men" route so many times it has become stale. If the X-Men are so easily manipulated, you'd think some of them would stay evil and mind-controlled.

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[Post 126]
Author : daithi
Date : Dec 17, 2006 08:16 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Even I must admit-----Chris Claremont has used this "X-Men mind-controlled, attack good X-Men" route so many times it has become stale. If the X-Men are so easily manipulated, you'd think some of them would stay evil and mind-controlled.

Mind control is my single most pet peeve with Claremont. Now Rachel is my favourite character and that will make me biased. However even looking at two of Claremont's abandoned plots. Dark Wolverine where he is mind controlled. The Summers School, where they are mind controlled. Ugh,

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[Post 127]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 18, 2006 12:57 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

That was probably the idea. I wonder how that would affect his plans, since some people, specially those who are not very familiar with Storm, would have problems taking orders from someone in a 8-year-old body, even if she was actually a grown up woman. Nathan projects Mr. Sinister to give orders. The Marauders were scared of that guy. Sorry but it's a public board. You could have used a PM.Right, well I know you've read the issue. I think he was making statements without actually reading the material. That's why I asked him if he read the issue. It's a personal question. If I said, "What happens in issue x?", then anyone can answer. If Claremont hadn't written anything X-Men after '91, his legacy would be untouchable. He would be revered as the greatest X-Men author, and no one could take him. He's seriously hurt his legacy by returning and bouncing from book to book like a silver ball in a pinball machine.He still is considered the best X-Men writer. His legacy for the first time around is still untouchable. That hasn't changed. What has Claremont truly accomplished since his return? How many stories have been left unresolved? How many editors has he gone through? Claremont saw how X-writers were treated by Marvel staff in the 1990s, did he believe HE would be treated any differently?I don't think he cares. He was asked if he wanted to write the X-Men again, and he accepted the offer. And you know what? There are just as many unresolved stories from 1998-2006 as there are from his original run. I'm just happy to see his work at all. Mind control is my single most pet peeve with Claremont. Now Rachel is my favourite character and that will make me biased. However even looking at two of Claremont's abandoned plots. Dark Wolverine where he is mind controlled. The Summers School, where they are mind controlled. Ugh,Wolverine wasn't going to be mind controlled. He was going to be brainwashed. As for Stryfe, that's an assumption. We don't know what was going to happen. I believe the correct phrase or term that bugs you is "X-Man vs X-Man". And yes, Claremont does go over the top with it.

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[Post 128]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Dec 18, 2006 03:05 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Nathan projects Mr. Sinister to give orders. The Marauders were scared of that guy.

But they don't know Mr. Sinister was in a child's body. What i meant is that, if you put Cap. America or the Hulk in a child's body, many people will see them as kids, and act accordingly, even if they know they are adults in reality.

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[Post 129]
Author : daithi
Date : Dec 18, 2006 09:59 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Wolverine wasn't going to be mind controlled. He was going to be brainwashed. As for Stryfe, that's an assumption. We don't know what was going to happen. I believe the correct phrase or term that bugs you is "X-Man vs X-Man". And yes, Claremont does go over the top with it.

Okay, brainwashed, mind controlled, whatever. It's tedious and overdone especially by Claremont. It's not just "X-Men vs X-Men" but that's always what happens next.

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[Post 130]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Dec 20, 2006 08:02 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Are Forge and Dani Moonstar related?:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

We firstly know that Forge was Cheyenne, the Adversary his arch-enemy. The Adversary had also plagued Dani Moonstar’s family, just as he had plagued Forge, turning both of her parents, including Black Eagle, into the Demon Bear. The only family the Adversary had appeared to hound was Dani’s family, and it appears coincidental that the only person outside of Dani’s family he harangued was Forge. Therefore it is not a great leap to infer from this that Chris was laying the groundwork to eventually reveal that Forge was related to Black Eagle, Dani’s father.

My initial view was like this: the Adversary, Shadow King, Bogan are all the same person, an idea you especially elaborated on. The Shadow King has wanted to marry Jean Grey, Psylocke, and Rogue for instance and no one states they're all related to each other.

It's similar to my feelings on Chris Claremont making Bishop related to Gateway: just because these characters have the same skin color, they don't need to belong to the same family.

Although Mr. Claremont apparently did the same thing with Dani and Forge earlier: since Dani and Forge are both Cheyenne, they are in fact of the same family -- your idea is that via their connection to the Adversary, they are both closely related than usually thought of...

So now my questions are these: Why were the Cheyenne selected? And for that matter, why was the female line of Storm's family selected as well? Since humanity started in Africa and the Shadow King is said to be at least as old as humanity, it makes sense for him to have at least one African opponent.

Why is the Shadow King especially interested in the indigenous peoples of North America, Africa, Australia and Europe (via the Otherworld) for instance?

Re. Bishop's actions in UXM #282-#288:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Yet, if he was a true adherent to Xavier’s dream, he would not have hunted and killed almost every last one… a slight contradiction.

IMO, this is all relative... It's obvious Bishop was/is from another culture, and a post WW3 era at that. It's obvious he loved the X-Men legends and served the Dream to the best of his ability. Bishop and his soldiers didn't kill in a psycho rage. They performed a duty, based on the law they knew. By killing the criminals Bishop saved others, he even personally saved Storm from one of these killers in UXM #287. Ironically, Bishop also possibly saved any ordinary officials who might have tried apprehending these 93 mutant killers...

I've never doubted Bishop wasn't a true adherent of Xavier's dream. After his retcon, even Cable was considered "Xavier's last disciple" (re. X-MEN: Books of Askani).

In Australia, the X-Men killed Broods, and aren't the Brood living creatures? In some cases, don't they have human hosts? Just about all the X-Men have killed, especially Wolverine, and none of them are said to be less of an adherent to Xavier's dream or not.

Storm acted like a borderline psycho for most of the entire XXM run and could have potentially and deliberately killed many people in XXM #36-#39. Rogue was mentally unstable and could have done even worse from XXM #1-#17, and no one states anything about this.

Re. The Askani:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Yet, this thread is about Chris’s abandoned plots, and he suggested that not only did he intend the Phoenix force, and not Scott, to be Rachel’s father, but he also never intended the Askani to be Rachel.
I'm not sure how much input or future untold stories Chris Claremont ever had about Askani. I'd really love to know what he had planned for her.

To daithi, jrnewto & others:

As an aside, I too am tired of "deus ex machina" overpowered female characters who are sadly, too often portrayed by Chris Claremont, especially when teamed up with disastrously weak males. And yet in the 1990's, Cable was made into a character who acted parallel to Chris Claremont's females -- being allowed to reduce other character's importance around him. But it's also important to note that Cable had/has severe handicaps to his power and a main idea of his entire history -- even from 1989 -- was that he needed a team to accomplish what his initial lone wolf behavior could not achieve.

-- DN

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[Post 131]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Dec 21, 2006 11:25 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In 1991, Bob Harras went out of his way to assure the fans that Proteus is Moira and Joe's son period.

These attempts went further to undermine Charles being Legion’s father, when David Haller returns in time during Legion Quest to deceive his mother, Gabrielle, into believing he was Charles, and doing the horizontal mambo with her in Haifa, suggesting he became his own father, and not Charles.

I think I prefer Chris’s idea – they are certainly the saner ones. This is just another example of editorial influence running amuck during the 90’s.

In fact, a particular writer who was involved at the time informed me that the "What's the matter, Cable? See someone you know?" exchange between Ahab and Cable was inserted by Bob Harras without Claremont's consent.

I doubt that, since I seem to recall the facial expressions indicating what the captions said. That is, Art Adams’s panels seemed to indicate Cable’s recognising Ahab’s features, but expressing surprise at what he had become. We could settle this by asking Art Adams, who was provided with Chris’s script for the Annual.

I have also not heard anyone come up with a more plausible explanation for Ahab’s vernacular in that Annual, where, on panel 5 of page 18, he says: “laddie-buck” – a common phrase Chris utilised when expressing the accent of a Gael.

If you'd like, I'll ask Alan Davis what he and Chris planned originally for Colin McKay in Excalibur (1st Series) #2.

I doubt Alan would have known, otherwise Colin would not have ended up becoming Kylun, since Alan grafted one of his own pet influences onto the adult Colin, i.e. Gilbert Gosseyn from Van Vogt’s Null A books.

A federally-mandated member (presumably from O*N*E*) would have joined the team. Him and Psylocke were not going to get along well at all.

I’d heard that it was going to be Spiral, hence the enmity between her and Psylocke, due to Betsy’s manipulation by Mojo.

Something with Bishop, Val Cooper and Charlotte Jones.

I’d heard Chris’s original proposal which later became District X, was going to include Bishop with Charlotte Jones as his partner.

On a side note, Walter Simonson informed me that Louise never intended for Cable to be an aged Cannonball. Ever. He said he doesn't know where fans got that from. Liefeld didn't intend for that either.

Word was that plans were afoot for Nathaniel Richards to be revealed as Cable's future self due to the fact that they were both morally ambiguous white-haired cyborg time-travellers, both were named Nathaniel, and Psi-Lord/Franklin Richards in Fantastic Force would exclaim “Stab my eyes!”, a phrase Cable used frequently at the time.

I think Forge was supposed to show up at some point.

I have recently been corresponding with an ex-assistant editor who suggested Forge’s vision as shown in UXM #253 was foreshadowing that he would become the Shadow King’s host following Charles’s death in #300, and would be used to get closer to Storm. This is why he was lured to Muir Isle with Banshee.

The revelation of Nazé being a previous host of SK in Uncanny #273 was dropping the clues into place of the Adversary being him in another guise. How he was able to gain control of Forge would relate to his similar ability to gain control over Dani Moonstar’s parents – some familial relationship between the two.

Was it ever explained what happen to the Jean Grey of Rachel's earth?Excalibur (1st Series) #52 (by Alan Davis) reveals that Jean was killed by a bomb planted by Mastermind. As for what Claremont planned? I'm not sure.

The main drift was revealed in What If (v.2) #32, which was penned from Chris’s original plot drafts.

It showed a timeline that diverged when the Phoenix Entity was captured by the Shi'ar and was given a psychic lobotomy that stripped her of her abilities.

She lived her life thinking that she was really Jean Grey, going on to marry Scott Summers and having their daughter Rachel.

It wasn't until Rachel was nine months old that she learned differently.

The Shadow King had sent Mastermind to get Rachel, and when ‘Jean’ tried to stop him he killed her. But she didn’t really die. Instead her full power and memories returned to her.

When she went to rescue Rachel Jean found out that the Shadow King had Rachel aged to adulthood so she could be his host. Phoenix defeated him in battle and de-aged her daughter back to her real age the same way she changed back Sara Grey.

Go forward in time where Rachel is about five or six and exhibiting psion powers. Sentinels are now hunting those with super powers, and Phoenix ends its threat by destroying all Sentinels. She then forsakes her mortal form to return to the stars where she can do no harm, leaving her husband and child behind.

What I find really interesting about this story is what it hints that could have happened in the mainstream timeline. When Phoenix goes off to reflect what she’s done in New Mexico near Angel’s home, she realises that Rachel was conceived there.

In addition, when Rachel was inhabited by the Shadow King there were hound scars on her face, suggesting Chris originally intended the Shadow King to have a hand in the creation of Hounds.

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[Post 132]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Dec 22, 2006 10:13 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have also not heard anyone come up with a more plausible explanation for Ahab’s vernacular in that Annual, where, on panel 5 of page 18, he says: “laddie-buck” – a common phrase Chris utilised when expressing the accent of a Gael.

Claremont had Pyro say that too (in UXM 226, after the Australian retcon).

It doesn't really change your point, I'm just mentioning it.

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[Post 133]
Author : Marty P
Date : Dec 22, 2006 04:56 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Claremont had Pyro say that too (in UXM 226, after the Australian retcon).

It doesn't really change your point, I'm just mentioning it.
Well, Pyro was first hinted at at being British....whe n did they change that to Australian?

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[Post 134]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 22, 2006 11:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But they don't know Mr. Sinister was in a child's body. What i meant is that, if you put Cap. America or the Hulk in a child's body, many people will see them as kids, and act accordingly, even if they know they are adults in reality.Yup. That's what frustrated the guy. He was stuck in an 8-year-old body. As a result, he wouldn't be allowed to participate in the "adult world", because every other adult would just see a kid, and laugh. This is a man with adult needs, wants, ambitions, dreams, views and feelings, but he is denied them because of his youth-appearance. That's why he works with clones, to fulfill his needs remotely. It's interesting psychology. Okay, brainwashed, mind controlled, whatever. It's tedious and overdone especially by Claremont. It's not just "X-Men vs X-Men" but that's always what happens next.I totally agree with you on how Claremont goes way overboard with, say, an X-Man fighting for the bad guys, but while sometimes an X-Man fighting for the bad guys is a result of mind control in Claremont's stories, sometimes it could be the result of a voluntary switch of sides, often fueled by temptation. Meggan technically chose to become the Goblin Princess, for example. Ahab didn't mind control Rachel, for example. He just broke her down. I just wanted to point that out. I still agree with your general point. I think I prefer Chris’s idea – they are certainly the saner ones. This is just another example of editorial influence running amuck during the 90’s.I think they were just twisting it around because it was convenient for the story they were trying to tell. I doubt that, since I seem to recall the facial expressions indicating what the captions said. That is, Art Adams’s panels seemed to indicate Cable’s recognising Ahab’s features, but expressing surprise at what he had become. We could settle this by asking Art Adams, who was provided with Chris’s script for the Annual.If someone knows how to contact Art Adams, we could ask him. However, I still find it to be highly unlikely, and no more than just another of Harras's antics. Aside from what a particular employee of Marvel told me, Chris Claremont himself said that he really wanted nothing to do with Cable. He used him in Uncanny X-Men #'s 270, 273 to compare and contrast his methods to the more traditional ones used by Charles, Scott, Ororo (who admitted to making some mistakes), and Jean, and a few other times like in Days of Future Present, but other than that, he didn't want much to do with him. He was Louise and Rob's character, and that's it. For Claremont to hint that Ahab and a character that he didn't have much interest in were counterparts would involve a further story down the road that would change Cable under his own pen. I don't see how that makes sense. Claremont wrote Cable in 2000-2001 because he was told to. Also, Cable's facial expression in the issue could have been inserted into the script before Art Adams recieved it. Editors see the scripts before they are sent to the artist, at both Marvel and DC. That's one of the few things in the creative process that didn't change when Bob Harras was in control. But if someone can find Art Adams to clarify, that would be nice. Until then, I see the Ahab/Cable scene as a bluff. That's unfortunate, because it seems interesting. I doubt Alan would have known, otherwise Colin would not have ended up becoming Kylun, since Alan grafted one of his own pet influences onto the adult Colin, i.e. Gilbert Gosseyn from Van Vogt’s Null A books.Your theory is interesting, and if I was the writer of Excalibur I would ask for your permission to use it, but I think it's too much of a stretch for what was really planned down the road when the second issue of the book was being written. I think Ahab was bound to show up again after Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. His dialogue before he teleported out at the end indicated that. But I know that a Days of Future Past sequel crossover was the editors' idea. Actually one of their better ideas. That means that Ahab wouldn't have existed if editorial wouldn't have asked Chris, Art, Louise, Terry and Jon to do this crossover, which was published two years after Excalibur #2. Rachel's flashback in Uncanny X-Men #189 (first appearance of Hounds) shows that the Hounds were used by trained specialists in the US military. You'd think that Ahab would be there to introduce the Hounds (or at least just Rachel) to the military, but he wasn't. Not that I have a problem with the change, but it goes to show that, from the start, there wasn't meant to be any irish cyborgs with energy spears sheparding the hounds. I’d heard that it was going to be Spiral, hence the enmity between her and Psylocke, due to Betsy’s manipulation by Mojo.Interesting. Of course, Spiral used to be a federal agent, so that would have been nice. We still don't know for sure who it was, but Spiral would be a nice choice.

I wonder if in the original run, when Alexi Vahzin and Val Cooper would have finally reached the X-Men, if Val would have put someone from Freedom Force on the team. Mystique, maybe, to start up the much-hinted-at Mystique/Forge/Storm triangle? I’d heard Chris’s original proposal which later became District X, was going to include Bishop with Charlotte Jones as his partner.Yeah, the District X thing was originally Chris's idea, but I meant from Bishop and Charlotte Jones in Uncanny X-Men #'s 469-471, or so. I think Chris was trying to start recycling his District X ideas here. He already used District X a little in Uncanny X-Men #'s 450-451. I guess Charlotte Jones was part of the original plan? Word was that plans were afoot for Nathaniel Richards to be revealed as Cable's future self due to the fact that they were both morally ambiguous white-haired cyborg time-travellers, both were named Nathaniel, and Psi-Lord/Franklin Richards in Fantastic Force would exclaim “Stab my eyes!”, a phrase Cable used frequently at the time.This wasn't Louise's idea, or Rob's. This came later in the 90's, after both of them left. If only I could remember who it was. Anyway, it's a silly idea. I have recently been corresponding with an ex-assistant editor who suggested Forge’s vision as shown in UXM #253 was foreshadowing that he would become the Shadow King’s host following Charles’s death in #300, and would be used to get closer to Storm. This is why he was lured to Muir Isle with Banshee.Seriously? Would that be Daryl Edelman or Suzanne Gaffney? Or do they want to remain anonymous? When you say 'suggested', does that mean that he/she said that that is what was going to happen, or just speculation? Because I actually considered that being the answer, once. The main drift was revealed in What If (v.2) #32, which was penned from Chris’s original plot drafts.

It showed a timeline that diverged when the Phoenix Entity was captured by the Shi'ar and was given a psychic lobotomy that stripped her of her abilities.

She lived her life thinking that she was really Jean Grey, going on to marry Scott Summers and having their daughter Rachel.

It wasn't until Rachel was nine months old that she learned differently.

The Shadow King had sent Mastermind to get Rachel, and when ‘Jean’ tried to stop him he killed her. But she didn’t really die. Instead her full power and memories returned to her.

When she went to rescue Rachel Jean found out that the Shadow King had Rachel aged to adulthood so she could be his host. Phoenix defeated him in battle and de-aged her daughter back to her real age the same way she changed back Sara Grey.

Go forward in time where Rachel is about five or six and exhibiting psion powers. Sentinels are now hunting those with super powers, and Phoenix ends its threat by destroying all Sentinels. She then forsakes her mortal form to return to the stars where she can do no harm, leaving her husband and child behind.

What I find really interesting about this story is what it hints that could have happened in the mainstream timeline. When Phoenix goes off to reflect what she’s done in New Mexico near Angel’s home, she realises that Rachel was conceived there.

In addition, when Rachel was inhabited by the Shadow King there were hound scars on her face, suggesting Chris originally intended the Shadow King to have a hand in the creation of Hounds.I didn't know that. Does this issue just depict what would have happened after Phoenix: The Untold Story, or is it intended to depict how DOFP Jean died? Does this issue imply that the course of events after Phoenix: The Untold Story are what happened in between The Untold Story and the DOFP X-Men being killed by the sentinels in Uncanny X-Men #'s 141-142? Now that I think about it, was the alternate Jean's death in Excalibur (1st Series) #21 more in line with what Chris had planned?

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[Post 135]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Dec 23, 2006 03:09 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I didn't know that. Does this issue just depict what would have happened after Phoenix: The Untold Story, or is it intended to depict how DOFP Jean died? Does this issue imply that the course of events after Phoenix: The Untold Story are what happened in between The Untold Story and the DOFP X-Men being killed by the sentinels in Uncanny X-Men #'s 141-142? Now that I think about it, was the alternate Jean's death in Excalibur (1st Series) #21 more in line with what Chris had planned?

It has several similarities to The Untold Story, DoFP and Chris Claremont's abandoned plots, although not equal; for example, the DoFP events happened earlier in this reality, all ending while Rachel was still 5 or 6 years old, and some X-men that were killed in DoFP survived, like Cyclops. The two issues easily rank among the best What Ifs ever, very good stuff.

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[Post 136]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Dec 23, 2006 07:02 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, Pyro was first hinted at at being British....whe n did they change that to Australian?

He first changed to Australian in the original Official Handbook, out in 1983. After that, it was hinted at and referenced in non-story sources (like a letter column and the Deluxe Official Handbook) for a while. Then it was outright stated in UXM 223 --- just three issues before his "laddie-buck" quote in 226.

(of course, a few writers screwed up after that and said he was English, but those can be considered errors. It's otherwise been a pretty consistent retcon)

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[Post 137]
Author : david r
Date : Dec 23, 2006 05:09 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have recently been corresponding with an ex-assistant editor who suggested Forge’s vision as shown in UXM #253 was foreshadowing that he would become the Shadow King’s host following Charles’s death in #300, and would be used to get closer to Storm. This is why he was lured to Muir Isle with Banshee.

Hey James, that would have been a brilliant twist with Forge. I remember that "Dream sequence" with Forge in UXM #253, and NEVER considered that the Shadow King may have gotten his hooks into the Cheyenne. The only problem with this theory is that Chris Claremont has said in interviews that the showdown with the SK (leading up to UXM #300) would have been the final battle with the Shadow King.

The revelation of Nazé being a previous host of SK in Uncanny #273 was dropping the clues into place of the Adversary being him in another guise. How he was able to gain control of Forge would relate to his similar ability to gain control over Dani Moonstar’s parents – some familial relationship between the two.

Claremont has the SK possessing many people, even simultaneously. I was not aware that Dani Moonstar and Forge were related. But this would make it even more plausible for the SK to have taken possession of Forge secretly in Uncanny X-Men #253, without us watchful readers ever connecting the dots. BTW, any other hints given by the ex-assistant editor????????

But this would mean that around UXM #253-255, the SK took control of Legion, Forge and that American doctor (name?) And he had some connection made with Polaris as well. Was it in his power to control so many people at once?

The main drift was revealed in What If (v.2) #32, which was penned from Chris’s original plot drafts.

If that is the annual I'm thinking of, it really feels like part of Claremont's future plans. Fishtaco should get this annual.

What I find really interesting about this story is what it hints that could have happened in the mainstream timeline. When Phoenix goes off to reflect what she’s done in New Mexico near Angel’s home, she realises that Rachel was conceived there.


Yes, that was a connection that was made to the Dark Phoenix Saga. That issue where Jean takes off Scott's visor so she can see his beautiful eyes. They then apparently made love, and Rachel was conceived there. Another reason I think Chris Claremont plotted this issue, because most writers probably would not have referenced a moment from the DPS.

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[Post 138]
Author : Marty P
Date : Dec 23, 2006 05:41 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Hey James, that would have been a brilliant twist with Forge. I remember that "Dream sequence" with Forge in UXM #253, and NEVER considered that the Shadow King may have gotten his hooks into the Cheyenne. The only problem with this theory is that Chris Claremont has said in interviews that the showdown with the SK (leading up to UXM #300) would have been the final battle with the Shadow King.
Wasn't it Xavier's final battle with the Shadow King?

But this would mean that around UXM #253-255, the SK took control of Legion, Forge and that American doctor (name?)
Dr. Shen.

Was it in his power to control so many people at once?
Yes, if the conditions are good. Good conditions meaning lots of hate in the world. IIRC the SK feeds on negative feelings. (IIRC, see page 1 of Uncanny #278. Part one of the Muir Island Saga)

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[Post 139]
Author : jdh
Date : Dec 23, 2006 06:45 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But this would mean that around UXM #253-255, the SK took control of Legion, Forge and that American doctor (name?) And he had some connection made with Polaris as well. Was it in his power to control so many people at once?

I thought SK could only do that when he possessed Karma.
But Karma had absorbed her brother into her being - identical powers to Karma's. Maybe SK took her brother with him when he fled Karma's body.

In the New Mutants issue where they are at Bid Sur (sp?) and Karma hears the voice and screams and then the explosion happens. I thought the voice was her brother's psyche trying to gain control of her body. I wonder if it was meant to be SK all along or if plans were changed.

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[Post 140]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 23, 2006 08:29 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

It has several similarities to The Untold Story, DoFP and Chris Claremont's abandoned plots, although not equal; for example, the DoFP events happened earlier in this reality, all ending while Rachel was still 5 or 6 years old, and some X-men that were killed in DoFP survived, like Cyclops. The two issues easily rank among the best What Ifs ever, very good stuff.Thanks for the clear-up. Now I understand what CBR poster DDM means when he says that Phoenix: The Untold Story is Rachel Summers's origin. But this would mean that around UXM #253-255, the SK took control of Legion, Forge and that American doctor (name?) And he had some connection made with Polaris as well. Was it in his power to control so many people at once?The Shadow King made an attempt to host Forge in Uncanny X-Men #253. He almost succeeded, but Forge bailed out of the Dreamtime when he punched Amahl Farouk at the last minute. Presumably, he succeeded with Legion when David entered the Astral Plane in Uncanny X-Men #259. David died that issue. His body was just being animated. Dr. Lian Shen was never the Shadow King's host. She just became his servant. Lian indicated having her own agenda in Uncanny X-Men #267. She has a grudge against Gambit. The Shadow King did, however, host FBI agent Jacob Reisz. I still don't understand how he managed to grab control of Reisz. He didn't enter the Astral Plane, so how could the Shadow King have taken him? If that is the annual I'm thinking of, it really feels like part of Claremont's future plans. Fishtaco should get this annual. I plan to order it soon. It sounds excellent. Wasn't it Xavier's final battle with the Shadow King? Both of them were going to die. In my opinion, it would have been better if just Xavier died. The Shadow King could have been long-term. I think we could have seen more of Magneto leading the X-Men with the Shadow King as the team's arch-nemesis. I thought SK could only do that when he possessed Karma.
But Karma had absorbed her brother into her being - identical powers to Karma's. Maybe SK took her brother with him when he fled Karma's body.

In the New Mutants issue where they are at Bid Sur (sp?) and Karma hears the voice and screams and then the explosion happens. I thought the voice was her brother's psyche trying to gain control of her body. I wonder if it was meant to be SK all along or if plans were changed.Some good observations. Remember, Claremont changes his mind often. I noticed another inconsistency between his portrayal of the Shadow King in New Mutants with his portrayal in Uncanny X-Men during the Silvestri and Lee eras. Karma was the Shadow King's host, but she didn't die when she was freed, obviously. I think Claremont changed his mind and made it so the Shadow King kills the hosts and just re-animates their bodies. Like a necromancer, essentially. Also, I'm not sure if Claremont really decided on using the Shadow King at the time New Mutants (1st Series) #'s 5-6 was published. Could be. I'm not sure. Xavier didn't seem to recognize the telepath back then.



As for the Shadow King taking Forge, I remember Storm's thought balloons in Uncanny X-Men #226, page 32, panel 2. Forge's face was covered in shadow. Storm was thinking: "Is this Forge who speaks, or the Adversary through him? Do I believe words, or heart when both have lied?"

I found out in an interview with Bob McLeod that originally, Sunspot was to grow huge like the Hulk whenever he used his powers. Not sure why this was changed.

Oh, and that rumor that Alan Davis was going to tell a Nightcrawler origin story in Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 59-60? Totally false. On his forum, Davis said, “No, I wouldn't have delved into Nightcrawler's origin-- I have always preferred to leave a certain amount of mystery in a character's past/origin.

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[Post 141]
Author : david r
Date : Dec 24, 2006 01:04 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Wasn't it Xavier's final battle with the Shadow King?

I think Claremont said the one, true final battle. But who knows?



In the New Mutants issue where they are at Bid Sur (sp?) and Karma hears the voice and screams and then the explosion happens. I thought the voice was her brother's psyche trying to gain control of her body. I wonder if it was meant to be SK all along or if plans were changed.

We'll never know. I take it now as the Shadow King being released, and possessing Karma.

The Shadow King made an attempt to host Forge in Uncanny X-Men #253. He almost succeeded, but Forge bailed out of the Dreamtime when he punched Amahl Farouk at the last minute.

At least we think he succeeded in escaping. Perhaps CC had another surprise up his sleeve, with this one.

Dr. Lian Shen was never the Shadow King's host. She just became his servant. Lian indicated having her own agenda in Uncanny X-Men #267. She has a grudge against Gambit. The Shadow King did, however, host FBI agent Jacob Reisz.

You are right. I was mistaken, it was the FBI agent I was thinking of.

I still don't understand how he managed to grab control of Reisz. He didn't enter the Astral Plane, so how could the Shadow King have taken him?

Reisz was having a heart attack, and at the exact moment of his death, the Shadow King leaped into his body and took control. So the SK has different ways to take possession of people.

I plan to order it soon. It sounds excellent.

I screwed up in my last post, it was not an annual. Just a regular issue of What If. But it really feels like stuff Claremont might have planned.

The Shadow King could have been long-term.

I'm skeptical that Claremont ALWAYS intended for the Shadow King to be the Adversary, and controlling Naze, etc. Does CC really plot that far ahead??

As Fishtaco says, Claremont changes his mind. But are Bogan/the Adversary and the Shadow King all one entity? Was this his original intent, or just redrafts made because Marvel would not allow his reusing the SK time and again?

As for the Shadow King taking Forge, I remember Storm's thought balloons in Uncanny X-Men #226, page 32, panel 2. Forge's face was covered in shadow. Storm was thinking: "Is this Forge who speaks, or the Adversary through him? Do I believe words, or heart when both have lied?"

I remember that. I think there was more to Forge than we've know.

Oh, and that rumor that Alan Davis was going to tell a Nightcrawler origin story in Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 59-60? Totally false. On his forum, Davis said,

This does not surprise me. I'm sure any plans Alan Davis had for Nightcrawler he would never reveal, and were different from Claremont's concept. (But didn't Alan Davis reveal he planned for Excalibur to have Kylun, Cerise and Micromax join the team??)

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[Post 142]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Dec 24, 2006 12:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Didnt they join? I got the impression they were members til they each left, except micromax didnt really have an official exit. did he?

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[Post 143]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Dec 24, 2006 06:40 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

At least we think he succeeded in escaping. Perhaps CC had another surprise up his sleeve, with this one.I think Forge got away clean. There were no hints of Forge being possessed between Uncanny X-Men #'s 254-278. Still, that's a very interesting point. I can tell that one of the themes Claremont was going to be exploring in Uncanny X-Men and X-Men was trust. I mean, there's Gambit who was going to be a traitor. Banshee sure didn't trust him. Storm did. There was Psylocke who no one trusted. We still don't know if she was completely free from The Hand. There's Wolverine, who everyone trusted. When Tessa was going to join the X-Men, there would have obviously been some trust issues. I think the Shadow King would have eventually tried to take Forge again. Of course, hardly anyone on the team would have trusted Magneto again. Maybe some trust issues with Archangel because of Apocalypse. Looking at X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001, I think the Shadow King would have tried to go for Rogue again, which could create some problems for the team. I think Guido was going to be absolutely trustworthy. I've figured out a lot about what Claremont was going to do with him, and although CC himself hasn't confirmed any of my thoughts, it seems like it was what Claremont was going to do, logically. I'm going off his earliest appearances and what Claremont said here on X-fan about how he originally thought up Guido.

Anyway, we already got to see a bit of a prelude to this in Uncanny X-Men #214. Malice really ripped the team apart, in her own way. Storm's comments in Uncanny X-Men #454 about Sage also go along.

Reisz was having a heart attack, and at the exact moment of his death, the Shadow King leaped into his body and took control. So the SK has different ways to take possession of people.Possibly. It's still left unclear. Maybe it was meant to stay unclear.

I screwed up in my last post, it was not an annual. Just a regular issue of What If. But it really feels like stuff Claremont might have planned.What If...? (2nd Series) #32, right?

I'm skeptical that Claremont ALWAYS intended for the Shadow King to be the Adversary, and controlling Naze, etc. Does CC really plot that far ahead??I don't think the Shadow King was The Adversary. As for Elias Bogan, I know that originally editorial wouldn't let Claremont use the Shadow King, so he used Bogan instead. However, Claremont was probably thinking that he could eventually just link the two once the at-the-time editor leaves, but he never got around to it. Yes, Claremont definitely wants to reveal that the Shadow King and Bogan are one and the same. Hints are dropped all over the place. New Excalibur #8 made it soooooooooooo much more obvious. Also, I like how in New Excalibur #8 the Shadow King commented that Earth 616 is the one world that had given him so much trouble. I think that line is more significant than the average fan might think. I gather we will see more of this in Exiles.

This does not surprise me. I'm sure any plans Alan Davis had for Nightcrawler he would never reveal, and were different from Claremont's concept. (But didn't Alan Davis reveal he planned for Excalibur to have Kylun, Cerise and Micromax join the team??)They all became full-fledged members during Alan's run. Alan said that he would have used the four new characters to lead the book through the new direction. Doesn't mean that he wasn't going to use Brian, Meggan, Rachel, Kurt and Kitty, but for the next issues the stories were going to be Kylun-centric and Cerise-centric.

Wow. Terry Kavanagh was overall a decent editor, but I wish he wouldn't have put the book on a bi-weekly schedule every month, 'cause that's why Alan left. Unless if it was Tom DeFalco's idea. DeFalco is a great writer, but was a pretty bad editor-in-chief.

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[Post 144]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 1, 2007 02:14 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Was it always Chris Claremont's intentions to have the New Mutants graduate into joining the X-Men? I've been wondering this, because I know CC had more NM stories planned. Louise Simonson was just interim writer. Has anyone here ever heard that some or all of the New Mutants were meant to eventually become full-fledged X-Men?

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[Post 145]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 1, 2007 03:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Was it always Chris Claremont's intentions to have the New Mutants graduate into joining the X-Men? I've been wondering this, because I know CC had more NM stories planned. Louise Simonson was just interim writer. Has anyone here ever heard that some or all of the New Mutants were meant to eventually become full-fledged X-Men?
Was Selene really Magma's mother or mother's mother?

I take it that Sunspot and Magma were destined to grow closer to the dark side.
Any ideas of Doug and Warlock?
Dani? She is one of my most favorite. And Illyana too.

I wonder if any would have followed Magneto, if and when he would have left the mansion.

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[Post 146]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 1, 2007 06:17 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Sunspot was definetly meant to go to the darker side.
That's the only part I liked about him.

Reignfire was awesome, but sadly retconned away.

Magma? I don't think so.

Loved the Hellions as well...

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[Post 147]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 1, 2007 10:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Sunspot was definetly meant to go to the darker side.
That's the only part I liked about him.

Reignfire was awesome, but sadly retconned away.

Magma? I don't think so.

Loved the Hellions as well...
But all of the glimpses of the futures for the New Mutants, that CC worte, placed Roberto and Amara on the dark side. Like leading the Hellfire Club. I always took Selene and Roberto's father joining the HC as a sign of Amara and Roberto eventually joining.


Was Rahne meant to shapeshift into more than just a wolf? Any ideas of CC plans for her? I mean to start her off so constricted and rigid in her religious beliefs seemed the beginning of a very long character arc.
She was original intended to be from India, right?

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[Post 148]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Jan 3, 2007 11:14 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I've always wondered where CC was going with Kitty and Courtney/Sat-yr-9/Opal Lun Saturnyne/various other incarnations connection. I forget in which issue but pretty early on in Excalibur he hinted that there was some connection between the two. Arg now I want to go back and find what Im talking about, but it was more than just the "friendship".

Yes, Chris stated our version of Kitty would become the heir or holder of the Saturnyne title, a position whose role included being responsible for the maintenance of order and reality of the multiverse (cf. Excalibur #3, p.15 and #22, p.13).

Just prior to this, Sat-Yr-9 zapped Courtney Ross (not killed, I’ll get to that further down), took her identity and began taking Kitty under her wing. Thereafter, Kitty began developing a nasty streak, suggesting that she was evolving into the equivalent of Sat-Yr-9.

In Excalibur #22 Courtney Ross even ended up looking strangely like Kitty Pryde – obviously meant to infer Kitty being the Saturnyne heir. What was all this leading to?

We’ll never know Chris’s true intention, but we do know that at some point the Adversary (a guise of the Shadow King) gained control of Roma’s realm. Why would he bother letting Sat-Yr-9 have any control in Otherworld, you ask? Well, from reading my previous posts you’ll note that the Adversary was really the Shadow King in disguise (seen in Uncanny #273, when Jean enters the astral plane, one of the fragments depicting the Shadow King’s previous hosts includes Nazé, at one time possessed by the Adversary).

Add to this Sat-Yr-9’s recent joining of the Hellfire Club, then perhaps her plot to foster Kitty’s nasty streak was due to her knowledge of Kitty being groomed to take the title of Saturnyne at the request of the Shadow King, the true master of the Club. If he at some point, during Chris’s originally intended Shadow King Saga (that we never saw pan out the way he planned), wins control over Otherworld then it would be no effort to place an “evil-Kitty” into the role of Omniversal Majestrix.

I would even go so far as to say that Kitty’s taking of the title Shadowcat was in preparation for this role. With the Shadow King as the power behind the Hellfire Club, there is no doubt in my mind that he dispatched Carmen to Japan, as shown in the Kitty Pryde & Wolverine miniseries during 1985. He perhaps also manipulated Kitty to find out her father was involved with something illegal and assume he is the victim, thus prompting her to stow away to Japan to help him.

While there she gets brainwashed by Ogun into thinking she was his assassin, in a similar fashion to the way the Hand intended to do so to the Black Widow as a child, as shown by Chris in Uncanny #268, and perhaps as Chris would have brought to light Wolverine’s own acquisition by the Hand and rebirth as their master assassin. But I digress…

In these issues Ogun is an EVIL SORCERER. In issue #4 Logan relates a story to Kitty that suggests Ogun is IMMORTAL. Likewise the Shadow King, as revealed on X-Men: True Friends. Is Ogun also a member of the race of wizards who had the mutant ability for channelling black magicks? Was Ogun a follower of the N’Garai, or perhaps another avatar of the Shadow King?

It is interesting that after Ogun corrupts Kitty’s soul, irrevocably changed by the experience, she adopts the moniker of SHADOWcat. Did this event move Kitty one step closer to the fate the Shadow King had in mind for her?

I suspect the Shadow King’s plans to corrupt Kitty came about as a direct result of his confrontation with her and Rachel in X-Men: True Friends. It’s interesting that in Excalibur #22 Farouk laid claim to Rachel, and suggested that he had been waiting for the moment since before her parents were born. His plans for Rachel had come about as a direct result of this confrontation, and he was never one to place all his eggs in one basket, so it is not difficult to believe that he also began making plans to utilise Kitty this long ago.

If the Adversary was just a guise of the Shadow King, lulling Roma into the delusion that she had deferred his threat, this would seem to have been to get her let her guard down so he could pave the way for Sat-Yr-9 to replace Courtney Ross, get Saturnyne out of the way, and place the meaner Kitty in the role, thus opening the way for the N’Garai to break through and transform the realm into Limbo.

With Chris’s additional intention for Kitty to be the repository of the Soulsword, I would posit that at some point in the future this corrupted Kitty would then attempt to redeem herself by returning to the Limbo wastelands to prepare Illyana.

How – by conferring on Illyana the role equivalent of Omniversal Majestrix. Since Limbo is known to be the crossroads to the multiverse – and hence all space and time – perhaps this would finally explain why Chris oftimes referred to it as Otherworld. That is, it was the dimension in which Roma resided, but upon N’Garai incursion, it devolved into the dimension of demon-overrun Limbo.

Upon having the role of Omniversal Majestrix conferred upon her by Kitty, Illyana also gets corrupted (hence Darkchilde coming to the fore).

Then in steps Storm.

Now we know the Shadow King to always have had a creepy interest in Storm when she was a child.

You’ll also recall Chris kept hinting about Storm's magickal potential when she fought the Dire Wraiths in Uncanny X-Men #187-188 (she saw through their magickal spells & was immune to certain other spells), and had her experiencing an apparition of either the Goddess she invokes or her mother in Uncanny X-Men #192 on her way to Africa.

With the breadcrumbs Chris laid inferring that the Adversary was another guise of the Shadow King, it is interesting that Storm experiences an illusion at the height of Inferno in UXM #242 showing the Empire State Building overlayed with the magickal power centre from the alternate Earth she and Forge were exiled to (seen in Uncanny X-Men #226) additionally revealed to be a doorway from Limbo.

This places the Adversary’s use of the N’Garai as pawns against our mutants during the “Fall of the Mutants” saga in an interesting light. Recall, when dealing with Chris Claremont stories, he generally means “N’Garai” when using the term “Elder Gods”, previously revealing them to be the demons whom Satana’s father had fought when he was the angel Lucifer. Chris even revealed in Monsters Unleashed#8 or #9 that the Wendigo curse was created by the “Elder Gods”, meaning that the N’Garai were also behind the manifestation of the Wendigo. He obviously had big plans for them.

Belasco was an agent of these Elder Gods, finally revealed to be the N’Garai during the “X-Men: Black Sun” mini plotted by Chris. Early in his career as a sorcerer, Belasco made contact with the Elder Gods and brokered a deal with them to enable their crossing the interdimensional boundaries between their cosmos and Earth’s by means of a spell he would cast utilising a pentagonal arrangement of five mystical “bloodstones”. His intent was for Illyana to be the means for his Elder Gods, the N’Garai, to enter Earth, so he kidnaps Illyana, taking a portion of her soul, shaping it into a “bloodstone,” and bonds it into a pentagram set in a medallion, which once united with four other bloodstones, would transform Illyana into a living gateway that the Elder Gods could use to return to the Earth dimension.

Hence, if Illyana’s armour somehow serves as protection specifically against the N’Garai using her as a means to enter the Earth dimension, it is interesting that this mystical armour first manifested itself after her battle against the Demon Bear (cf. New Mutants #19), a creature the Adversary brought into being. If the Adversary sent the Demon Bear against the New Mutants it would appear the Demon Bear was also associated with the N’Garai.

If the Adversary is an avatar of the Shadow King, then Illyana’s unfortunate destiny is of interest when one further considers Shaw and Selene’s suggestion of “Illyana(Magik) being the most powerful among the New Mutants, is the most likely to serve their interests” (cf. New Mutants #75). With incontrovertible proof that the Shadow King was the “Power-behind-the-Club,” in what other way could Illyana serve his interests than to bring forth the N’Garai?!

Now getting to my above comments on Courtney Ross, while Excalibur #56 suggested she was killed by Sat-Yr-9, if you go back to issue #5, the energy used to zap Courtney was identical to that on page 20 of issue #4 and page 14 of issue #3, strongly suggesting that she was instead transported to another dimension. The other thing needing resolution is why Sat-Yr-9 was wearing items confiscated from Rupert (from issue #3). Does anyone have any suggestions?

In late ’98/early ‘99 Marvel editorial requested series proposals for a revamped Defenders series. Chris asked then editor if he could add one more proposal for the book to the growing stack. After receiving the nod, he wrote a riveting treatment in which Margali Szardos, together with the spirits of the deceased mutant seer Destiny and the psionic mutant Legion, sought to use her magic to prevent disasters in the Earthly realm, and this incarnation actually featured in FANTASTIC FOUR (vol. 3) #16, watching the Fantastic Four from Limbo.

However, his proposal didn’t make the cut.

That would not be the last we would hear of Chris’s Defenders, though, and in the Fantastic Four ’99 Annual, Margali joined the novice hero named Mechamage and Daimon Hellstrom, the self-styled Son of Satan, to become the Shadow Hunters, a group dedicated to combating evil users of magic.

It is rather telling, don’t you think, that the initial membership of this group included the astral bodies of previous victims of the Shadow King, Destiny and Legion. I like to imagine that the later appellation, Shadow Hunters, implied that the central focus of their mission would be combating the Shadow King’s influence.

If his Defenders proposal had made the cut, I imagine Chris would finally have told his “Return of the Elder Gods” epic with Marvel’s horror characters from the 70’s attempting to keep back an incursion of the N’Garai.

I wonder if the quelled outcome of Chris’s N’Garai epic ever made its way into his work on the Shadowmoon trilogy?! Can anyone recall if there were any similarities?

So much great potential curbed. What about Chris’s intentions for Valeria Von Doom? She materialised in the F4’s headquarters professing to be from the future, and the daughter of Doctor Doom and the Invisible Woman. It was unknown how they would come together in the future, and how Mr. Fantastic would be removed from the picture. Things seemed to be coming together when Reed became trapped in Dooms armour, and publicly pretended to be the villain, remarrying Sue and making her his baroness. At this time, Valeria was sent to Haven, a safe-house at the end of the universe, for her own protection, but as events proceeded, Reed was freed from the armour, again calling Valeria’s future into question. Whilst Chris intended to resolve the storyline, the title was handed over to Carlos Pacheco, and he never got the chance. I’d welcome any theories about Chris’s original intentions for her?

Byrne didn't like the idea of a hero like Xavier having a bastard son.

Yet he was not uncomfortable proposing a similar story introducing an illegitimate child into Peter Parker’s life!?

I believe that Havok's role would have been very different (as indicated by the foreshadowing in Uncanny X-Men #256). I think he would have been a freedom fighter in Genosha, always on the run. I'm getting the impression that he would have been to mutants like what Moses was to the Hebrews. Leading them away from slavery to freedom.

I think the whole point of the scenario shown in UXM #256 was Chris foreshadowing Alex’s brainwashing into a Genoshan Magistrate, furthering the idea of mutants as commodities. Russia was seeing the value of manipulating mutants as agents, the Weapon X programme had been doing it for ages, so why not Genosha?

This creates the problem David R and I have bandied about (without much success) of who the Siege Perilous was working for? If Roma, why would it serve her interests for Jessan Hoan to end up as the “kingpin” of Madripoor, Psylocke to fall into the clutches of the Hand, Havok to end up being a fugitive in Genosha, Colossus into the path of Magistrates and Masque, etc. Maybe Merlin would be the more convincing suspect, but it still doesn’t ring completely true.

I will note that there appeared to be some connection between Psylocke’s journey through the Siege and Spiral and Mojo having a hand in her transformation before getting found by Tsurayaba and co. Were Mojo and Spiral thus also behind the predicament the other team members found themselves in? How on earth could they have had any connection to the Siege? It’s about time Chris came clean, methinks!

I believe that Colossus, Jenny Ransome and Phillip Moreau were actually going to be a part of this. Maybe Callisto, too.

You may be onto something. It is interesting that he later relocated Callisto to Genosha in his more recent Excalibur series.

Perhaps he intended to have the situation of the Press Gang’s incursion on American soil turn into an international incident, and would lead to Peter and Callisto ending up in Genosha.

I wonder if the story that surfaced with Brian Xavier, Kurt Marko and Alexander Ryking involved in Almagordo was originally an idea of Chris’s intended to reveal their involvement in the establishment of the nation-state of Genosha, once again altered by BH?! What do you think?

Speaking of Jenny Ransome, when she was on the table to be processed in UXM #237 she fights back mentally against the telepath and either knocks every-one out or kills them whilst still being tied down. Psylocke feels a very strong psychic shock-wave and it is implied it came from Jenny. All this seemed to suggest that Jenny was a psychic mutant, but in later appearances she seemed to be a tank (strong-girl). So did Chris intend her as another telepath or telekinetic? Did her psychic abilities ever arise again or were they swept under the carpet? Sounds like the same approach to those powers shown in her initial introduction were later ignored, just like Gambit’s were.

I find it rather obvious that X-Tinction Agenda, while it was a great story, was not what Claremont originally had planned for Genosha. I don't believe that Cameron Hodge was ever meant to be a part of it.

If Chris never intended Cameron Hodge to be part of the Genoshan saga, why would he utilise Louise’s characters, Nanny and the Orphan Maker, to reduce Ororo to childhood? I’m not disputing your idea, just pointing out that for it to hold you’d need to answer why Chris would reject some of Louise’s ideas whilst retaining others.

I have heard that Peter David’s X-Factor has recently revealed that the mutant Tryp, of Singularity Investigations, previously sought out and collected others like himself by killing their parents. Does this modus operandi remind you of anyone? Why create a new character/group to be responsible for this, when Nanny and the Orphan Maker are sitting in limbo waiting to be utilised? Or, tie it back to that original group shown in the first mutant story as told by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Now that would have been interesting! Also an overlooked opportunity to tie it all into the Neo, don’t you think?

Speaking above of Nanny, I wonder what Chris was up to with Psylocke’s pointing out that she was not a cyborg, as initially suggested in X-Factor #40, but rather a robot (cf. UXM #248, p. 14).

There was going to be a Wolverine mini from that page in Uncanny X-Men #455. This was probably going to reflect on Claremont's original intentions for Landau Luckman and Lake.

Do tell what the significance of this page was, as I obviously don’t get to find out.

Another unexplained group of Chris’s was the Cult of the Black Blade from Wolverine #1 and 2. They were centuries old, surfacing when Japan was born as a nation, and experienced a resurgence in the 1920’s. The cult had, incidentally enough, seen many of its members slain during the Second World War. It sought out the perfect wielder of the Black Blade, prepared even to go to the extremes of human sacrifice to bond them to the sword permanently. Sounded slightly like the curse of the Ebony Blade. Do posters have any clues where Chris intended taking this, and who the ‘perfect wielder’ might have been intended as?

Also, Storm was in a similar situation to Mr. Sinister and Gambit, and possibly Orphan Maker, and that was going somewhere.

Hence my earlier contention that CC’s proposed storyline, in which Stryfe would take over Xavier’s School and instate the Summers Clan as the public face of the School, was a plot he originally intended Mr. Sinister to be behind as opposed to Stryfe.

Perhaps the child behind Mr. Sinister was manipulating Nanny & the Orphan Maker to reduce mutants to childhood, so he could fulfil his dream of running Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters. The School would become his own Neverland (ala Lost Boys, not Tieri’s Weapon X).

Storm’s involvement is interesting, considering Mr. Sinister’s involvement in a “game” against SK, and SK’s obsession with Storm. Was Storm’s being reduced to childhood all part of this game?

Excalibur (1st Series) #12 (or somewhere around there) establishes that there is only one Phoenix in all the multiverse.

Just as it has been argued that there existed only one Shadow King throughout the multiverse. Hmmm!

The Shadow King has wanted to marry Jean Grey, Psylocke, and Rogue for instance and no one states they're all related to each other.

I suspect Chris’s later stories involving the Shadow King with Rogue and Psylocke were all originally intended for Jean. However, when Shooter vetoed his original ending to the Dark Phoenix Saga, and later greenlit the reunion of the original X-Men and resurrection of Jean without him, Chris had to begin reassigning his stories for her onto those other X-women he developed a fondness for.

Why is the Shadow King especially interested in the indigenous peoples of North America, Africa, Australia and Europe (via the Otherworld) for instance?

Well done noticing that less obvious connection! I look forward to hearing what you think this specifically implies.

Bishop and his soldiers didn't kill in a psycho rage. They performed a duty, based on the law they knew.

Still a law contrary to Xavier’s “Dream”, something Bishop would know if he was such an adherent to it, as he claimed to be during these issues.

In Australia, the X-Men killed Broods, and aren't the Brood living creatures?

If Charles had been around, I suspect the outcome might have been quite different, and I actually doubt the X-Men would have become the outlaws they later became in the lead-up to this era, had Charles remained behind with them on Earth.

I'm not sure how much input or future untold stories Chris Claremont ever had about Askani. I'd really love to know what he had planned for her.

Since CC stated that his Askani was not intended to be Rachel (or from 4000AD for that matter), I would alternatively posit that he perhaps intended for her to come from the future of the alternate world, Warlord’s Earth, where Nathaniel Richards dwelt. I say alternate world because in X-Factor #67 on page 6, the world that Apocalypse rules is referred to as “Sidereal scantime.” So it’s a SIDE REALITY, as Other Earth is.

I would theorise that the Askani sisterhood are perhaps a future version of the matriarchal society of the Eyriennes on Warlord’ Earth, as shown in Fantastic Four #273, and were not necessarily established by Rachel Grey herself, but perhaps by descendants of the Rachel Grey of Warlord’s Earth, who had perhaps married Franklin Richards.

Askani places Nathan in the care of this reality’s Richards clan who are descendants of this timeline’s Franklin Richards and Rachel Grey.

Nathan Christopher Summer is hence raised as a Richards to protect his identity from Apocalypse’s spies who will stop at nothing to kill him since he is destined to become Apocalypse’s greatest enemy.

Young Nathan is then secretly trained in the use of his powers, in much the same way A1 trained Magnus the Robot Fighter (but perhaps still ignorant of his true identity).

Upon discovering the truth, he embraces his destiny, and travels backwards in time to become Rama-Tut in an attempt to prevent Apocalypse’s ascension.

Unfortunately, in an ironic twist, the Fantastic Four return to the same period, and it is their interference (Fantastic Four v.1 #19) that prevents Rama-Tut from stopping Apocalypse before he begins his meteoric rise to power.

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[Post 149]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 4, 2007 12:34 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

His intent was for Illyana to be the means for his Elder Gods, the N’Garai, to enter Earth, so he kidnaps Illyana, taking a portion of her soul, shaping it into a “bloodstone,” and bonds it into a pentagram set in a medallion, which once united with four other bloodstones, would transform Illyana into a living gateway that the Elder Gods could use to return to the Earth dimension.

Hence, if Illyana’s armour somehow serves as protection specifically against the N’Garai using her as a means to enter the Earth dimension, it is interesting that this mystical armour first manifested itself after her battle against the Demon Bear (cf. New Mutants #19), a creature the Adversary brought into being. If the Adversary sent the Demon Bear against the New Mutants it would appear the Demon Bear was also associated with the N’Garai.

It would be cool to see a silver-armor clad woman wielding a shimmering silver sword, battling and endless horde of N'Garai. Camera pulls out to reveal a planet cloaked in darkness, in a starless cosmos, and the N'Garai cover the entire world. Only a flash of silver exists in a vast wave of dark demons.

It would explain that Illyanna has been battling the demons on their homeworld since the Inferno storyline.

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[Post 150]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Jan 4, 2007 04:19 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Still a law contrary to Xavier’s “Dream”, something Bishop would know if he was such an adherent to it, as he claimed to be during these issues.


Xavier's dream had been corrupted probably before Bishop was even born, a good part of his early character development was knowing his idols and finding out that them and the X-men were not what he though they were.

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[Post 151]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 4, 2007 04:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Jrnewto, you are a genius.

It seems that Claremont's plot for Kitty Pryde was headed for her becoming the new Saturnyne. Her and Courtney Ross' physical similarities shown in Excalibur #22 was an obvious hint. (I think Chris himself reminded us to that issue, here at CMX once.)

But what say you about Claremont's reveal that he knew "Kitty's final fate"? Claremont hinted to this in the late 90s. I would suggest he eventually wanted Kitty to become the first mutant elected to the White House. Which we finally saw happen at the conclusion of X-Men: The End.

So did Claremont purposefully abandon his "Saturnyne"-subplot for Kitty Pryde? Or did he intend for her to gradually attain both leadership roles? Omniversal majestrix and later, President of the United States.

I never would have considered that Excalibur would play a major role in Claremont's Shadow King epic. But it's very likely he might, using Kitty Pryde ( Shadowcat) as the instrument the Shadow King would use. Remember, in Uncanny X-Men #278, the SK did say his ambitions were larger than the Earth. Something to that effect. Claremont seemed to be hinting that the Shadow King had larger goals than just the conquest of Earth.

Finding a connection with Shadowcat and the Shadow King was just brilliant.



[Post 153]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 4, 2007 08:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Now getting to my above comments on Courtney Ross, while Excalibur #56 suggested she was killed by Sat-Yr-9, if you go back to issue #5, the energy used to zap Courtney was identical to that on page 20 of issue #4 and page 14 of issue #3, strongly suggesting that she was instead transported to another dimension. The other thing needing resolution is why Sat-Yr-9 was wearing items confiscated from Rupert (from issue #3). Does anyone have any suggestions?
I really think 616 Courtney was killed...you can see the remains (ashes) of 616 Courtney in the issue she was replaced by the Sat-Yr-9.

In late ’98/early ‘99 Marvel editorial requested series proposals for a revamped Defenders series. Chris asked then editor if he could add one more proposal for the book to the growing stack. After receiving the nod, he wrote a riveting treatment in which Margali Szardos, together with the spirits of the deceased mutant seer Destiny and the psionic mutant Legion, sought to use her magic to prevent disasters in the Earthly realm, and this incarnation actually featured in FANTASTIC FOUR (vol. 3) #16, watching the Fantastic Four from Limbo.
Never knew this....CC did mention a few years back (when X-treme was still going strong) that he (then) recently proposed a mini, featuring dead Marvel characters.




Yet he was not uncomfortable proposing a similar story introducing an illegitimate child into Peter Parker’s life!?
Heh, well, Byrne is a prick.


If Roma, why would it serve her interests for Jessan Hoan to end up as the “kingpin” of Madripoor
Jessan Hoan did not go through the Siege Perilous.

Psylocke to fall into the clutches of the Hand, Havok to end up being a fugitive in Genosha, Colossus into the path of Magistrates and Masque, etc. Maybe Merlin would be the more convincing suspect, but it still doesn’t ring completely true.
Might be a combo with Merlin and the function of the SP.
The SP was meant to weigh you on a cosmic scale, and if you were found worthy, you would return with a new chance at life.
Psylocke wanted to be the pefect warrior; The Hand are among the best warriors....Plus Psylocke used her powers to lure the other X-men into the SIege..maybe this was a form of punishment?

Have no clue about Havok..always wondered about that myself.

Colossus running into Masque and Callisto was pure coincidental I believe.

Wasn't it stated in the story that the Genegineer and co deliberately mutated Jenny's powers into super-strength, to fill a need in Genosha? They needed more mutants with strength than what she naturally had, so they altered her.
Very true, she was mutated for working in the Genoshan mines. Her children could become healers.

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[Post 154]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 5, 2007 05:23 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

@Jrnewto, that information about a new Defenders series is fascinating. It's news to me. Did you purloin this from that ex-assistant editor? What other tidbits did you learn??

The Shadow Hunters would have been highly provocative. That title, and the fact that both Legion and Destiny were meant to die from the Shadow King, has to make me wonder what their goal would have been? And if the SK would have been their main archenemy.

"Return of the Elder Gods"? I wonder if the Black Sun mini-series was the first part in a plan to tell that story?

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[Post 155]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Jan 5, 2007 05:25 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This big X-Event of '07 should be about all the pent up plot threads surrounding The Shadow King, the Elder Gods, Belasco, Limbo, Otherworld, Roma, The Adversary, it could pave the way for Illyana's return! But of course Marvel would never do anything that interesting.

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[Post 156]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Jan 5, 2007 06:05 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This big X-Event of '07 should be about all the pent up plot threads surrounding The Shadow King, the Elder Gods, Belasco, Limbo, Otherworld, Roma, The Adversary, it could pave the way for Illyana's return! But of course Marvel would never do anything that interesting.

Oh, boy, that would be so fun that i would prefer to read Chuck Austen writing Polaris forever

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[Post 157]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 5, 2007 03:41 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This big X-Event of '07 should be about all the pent up plot threads surrounding The Shadow King, the Elder Gods, Belasco, Limbo, Otherworld, Roma, The Adversary, it could pave the way for Illyana's return! But of course Marvel would never do anything that interesting.
I could go for that. Why wasn't this the idea for the X-Men the End story line? THAT wouldv'e been epic.

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[Post 158]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Jan 5, 2007 04:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Belasco was an agent of these Elder Gods, finally revealed to be the N’Garai during the “X-Men: Black Sun” mini plotted by Chris. Early in his career as a sorcerer, Belasco made contact with the Elder Gods and brokered a deal with them to enable their crossing the interdimensional boundaries between their cosmos and Earth’s by means of a spell he would cast utilising a pentagonal arrangement of five mystical “bloodstones”. His intent was for Illyana to be the means for his Elder Gods, the N’Garai, to enter Earth, so he kidnaps Illyana, taking a portion of her soul, shaping it into a “bloodstone,” and bonds it into a pentagram set in a medallion, which once united with four other bloodstones, would transform Illyana into a living gateway that the Elder Gods could use to return to the Earth dimension.

What did happen to the Bloodstone Medallion? Didn't Illyana have it in an issue of the New Mutants? And afterward it disappered but where? It has four portions of Ilyana's soul wouldn't it be valuble for someone to search for and possess it?

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[Post 159]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 5, 2007 04:09 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What did happen to the Bloodstone Medallion? Didn't Illyana have it in an issue of the New Mutants? And afterward it disappered but where? It has four portions of Ilyana's soul wouldn't it be valuble for someone to search for and possess it?
I assumed it's still with her, but I also assume she is still alive - somewhere.
I suppose it could be in Kitty's possession or Kitty would be able to locate, instinctively. Would be interesting if Sinister had it.

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[Post 160]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Jan 5, 2007 09:24 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Im starting to think you just like to disagree with me Alpha. I actually think it could be pretty cool, though I can understand why some wouldnt like it if they arent into the mystical/other dimensional aspects of the marvel universe. Personally Im not a fan of the Space epic and wouldnt like it if the big x-event were space centric.

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[Post 161]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Jan 5, 2007 10:09 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Im starting to think you just like to disagree with me Alpha. I actually think it could be pretty cool, though I can understand why some wouldnt like it if they arent into the mystical/other dimensional aspects of the marvel universe. Personally Im not a fan of the Space epic and wouldnt like it if the big x-event were space centric.

No, i'm just not into the whole demon/mystical thing. And the next event will (most likely) have nothing to do with space.

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[Post 162]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Jan 5, 2007 10:36 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Was it always Chris Claremont's intentions to have the New Mutants graduate into joining the X-Men? I've been wondering this, because I know CC had more NM stories planned. Louise Simonson was just interim writer. Has anyone here ever heard that some or all of the New Mutants were meant to eventually become full-fledged X-Men?You mean like when they put on the costumes in New Mutants (1st Series) #61? I don't think so. The New Mutants are New Mutants. The X-Men are X-Men. Was Selene really Magma's mother or mother's mother?Selene killed Magma's mother, so she can't be. She could be her grandmother, though. Or an ancestor dating even farther back. I take it that Sunspot and Magma were destined to grow closer to the dark side.Dunno about Magma (possibly), but Sunspot, yeah. I'm pretty sure Sunspot was going to replace his father in the Hellfire Club. I think parts of this were resolved in Uncanny X-Men #'s 452-454. Any ideas of Doug and Warlock?Not sure. I think New Mutants (1st Series) Annual #6 (1st Story) was a bit of a reflection on this. We know from New Mutants (1st Series) #53 that Doug really was infected with the Transmode virus. That was probably going to be the centerpiece for development in Doug and 'Lock had Claremont stayed on the book. Was Rahne meant to shapeshift into more than just a wolf? Any ideas of CC plans for her? I mean to start her off so constricted and rigid in her religious beliefs seemed the beginning of a very long character arc.I haven't heard of any of this. Not sure if this is true. She was original intended to be from India, right?How do you know this? Because, thinking about it now, it might be right. Because if Claremont did originally intend for Wolfsbane to be from India, then he recycled the idea when he brought in Thunderbird III, who also had a connection to Moira MacTaggert, as seen in X-Men Unlimited (1st Series) #27. Jdh, where did you hear this from? Yet he was not uncomfortable proposing a similar story introducing an illegitimate child into Peter Parker’s life!?I thought that was Bill Mantlo. I think the whole point of the scenario shown in UXM #256 was Chris foreshadowing Alex’s brainwashing into a Genoshan Magistrate, furthering the idea of mutants as commodities.I think "Magistrate Summers" was the later idea. I think that originally, Havok was supposed to be leading mutants to freedom in Genosha. I think he was meant to be a "Moses" figure. The foreshadowing in Psylocke's mind in Uncanny X-Men #256 didn't imply anything about him becoming one of them, as far as I know. And speaking of the Moses/Pharoah story, it was used in Factor X. Havok was involved. of who the Siege Perilous was working for?Gateway, I believe. why would it serve her interests for Jessan Hoan to end up as the “kingpin” of MadripoorShe didn't go through the Siege. Her change in behavior was a result in Pretty Boy's tampering. If Chris never intended Cameron Hodge to be part of the Genoshan saga, why would he utilise Louise’s characters, Nanny and the Orphan Maker, to reduce Ororo to childhood? I’m not disputing your idea, just pointing out that for it to hold you’d need to answer why Chris would reject some of Louise’s ideas whilst retaining others.I think that Cameron Hodge's story was meant to end with Inferno. I think that bringing him back was Bob Harras's idea. Claremont used Nanny and Orphan Maker because he liked the characters, and he needed a way to reduce Storm to childhood. He didn't have to use all her ideas or none of them. I wonder if the story that surfaced with Brian Xavier, Kurt Marko and Alexander Ryking involved in Almagordo was originally an idea of Chris’s intended to reveal their involvement in the establishment of the nation-state of Genosha, once again altered by BH?! What do you think?Another editorial idea, I think. I think Harras wanted to do a story for X-Men (2nd Series) #'s 12-13 as a homage to X-Men (1st Series) #'s 12-13. Harras is known for his gimmicks. I have heard that Peter David’s X-Factor has recently revealed that the mutant Tryp, of Singularity Investigations, previously sought out and collected others like himself by killing their parents. Does this modus operandi remind you of anyone? Why create a new character/group to be responsible for this, when Nanny and the Orphan Maker are sitting in limbo waiting to be utilised? Or, tie it back to that original group shown in the first mutant story as told by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Now that would have been interesting! Also an overlooked opportunity to tie it all into the Neo, don’t you think?Well, Peter David has his own ideas. He may be doing something that was done before, but I don't think that in any way its inspired by previous stories by Claremont and Simonson. Speaking above of Nanny, I wonder what Chris was up to with Psylocke’s pointing out that she was not a cyborg, as initially suggested in X-Factor #40, but rather a robot (cf. UXM #248, p. 14).There's someone in that robot suit. I think it's a little girl with the mind of an intelligent adult. So did Claremont purposefully abandon his "Saturnyne"-subplot for Kitty Pryde? Or did he intend for her to gradually attain both leadership roles?I think the "president of the U.S.A." part was just for X-Men: The End, but Kitty getting into politics began in X-Treme X-Men. Kitty trying to find a life outside the mutant conflict began with Schoolgirls From Heck in Excalibur, I think. I doubt Claremont had any plans to abandon the Saturnyne plot. This big X-Event of '07 should be about all the pent up plot threads surrounding The Shadow King, the Elder Gods, Belasco, Limbo, Otherworld, Roma, The Adversary, it could pave the way for Illyana's return! But of course Marvel would never do anything that interesting.I doubt that upcoming x-over this year is going to resolve old Claremont storylines from 20 years ago.

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[Post 163]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 5, 2007 11:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

@fishtaco
I thought Selene kiling Magma's mother was metaphorical. As in, Selene revealed herself to be my mother, my mother is now dead. Selene killed my mother.

Rahne morphed into a big white wolf and a white haired female of astonishing beauty, in the cloak and dagger issue. And I thought it was speculated that she might be capable of more.

Magma did leave to join the Hellions under CC or Louise's pen.

Rahne's original country of origin was India, I thought that was revealed in a comic book of original ideas and sketches - it had Sunspot growing (hulking out) in size and Sam was more athletic in build. Sam also had a different power, I think. I can't remember the name of the book, mostly trivia stuff.

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[Post 164]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Jan 6, 2007 04:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When Rahne transforms into the big white wolf and the older version of herself, who had red hair, not white, it was as a result of a power switch between herself and Dagger, they werent her powers exactly. And it wasnt really hinted that her powers would expand to become more like that, but I think it was Xavier who said she may very well grow up to be that beautiful woman one day, it might have been someone else but I think it was Xavier. Which is unfortunate because for whatever reason people like her with a shaved head and I think its awful, she aint Sinead, let her grow up already!

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[Post 165]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 6, 2007 06:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Which is unfortunate because for whatever reason people like her with a shaved head and I think its awful, she aint Sinead, let her grow up already!
Uhm, her hair is short because it can't grow any longer...it's part of her mutation....Although I believe that has been forgotten now and then with other writers....

Heh, and besides, Rahne was here first, it's Sinead who is the thief of the haircut.

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[Post 166]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Jan 7, 2007 03:32 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

She had long hair for years... I know what you're talking about though. When she was young her hair wouldnt grow. But even at that time Xavier said that she had the potential to become the beautiful woman she was when she had Daggers powers. I think it was intended she'd eventually grow out of the hair growth problem. And even if it wasnt, she did.

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[Post 167]
Author : LoganBane
Date : Jan 7, 2007 07:22 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Rachel doesn't have the temper of Wolverine, she has the temper of Jean (and come on, who would choose his/her child to have Wolverine's temper? ), and she adquired her tracking skills by being a hound.



I didn't say they can decide the traits that are passed on...
It's still a wild card, I was just merely speculating on the point.
She was chosen to be a hound for her tracking abilities. Or did I miss something?
If anything I'd say she's a good tracker because she's a psy.

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[Post 168]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Jan 7, 2007 04:18 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I didn't say they can decide the traits that are passed on...
It's still a wild card, I was just merely speculating on the point.
She was chosen to be a hound for her tracking abilities. Or did I miss something?
If anything I'd say she's a good tracker because she's a psy.

There's already a DNA test on panel by the one that knows the Summers genes better than anyone confirming she's Scott's daughter.

And i don't think she would be a natural tracker, probably the hound training made her one, although the telepathy helps.

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[Post 169]
Author : daithi
Date : Jan 7, 2007 06:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

There's already a DNA test on panel by the one that knows the Summers genes better than anyone confirming she's Scott's daughter.

And i don't think she would be a natural tracker, probably the hound training made her one, although the telepathy helps.

For what it's worth it was Rachel's telepathy that made her a tracker. It was even stated that once Rachel got track of a psychic sent she couldn't loose it.

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[Post 170]
Author : Dino Pollard
Date : Jan 7, 2007 09:39 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Some of these ideas I don't really like at all. I think the idea of a little kid who idolizes supervillains and creates them with his mind is cool, but I'm not too keen on it being an origin for Sinister. I absolutely LOVE the origin Peter Milligan gave the character in THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX.

Regarding the Longshot/Gambit theory someone mentioned in the previous thread, that was a theory I came up with while reading UXM back-issues from the Australian outback era up until the return of the Shadow King. Apparently it went pretty far since people were talking about it being an Internet legend or something.


But there are other ideas here which are really, really stellar. Claremont's original plans for XXM seem great, and his Dark Wolverine story would have been awesome. If nothing else, I think Claremont is a great idea man, but his execution falls flat and he has a tendency to plot very, very, very long-term (which is both a blessing and a curse).

I think if anything, Claremont should become a creative director for Marvel's X-books (someone similar to the position Grant Morrison has over at DC). That way, Claremont would have an outlet for these ideas of his, as well as input from the writers working with him, and there probably wouldn't be as much editorial interference (since a creative director role would be sort of like an editorial position).

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[Post 171]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Jan 7, 2007 10:25 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Claremont had Pyro say that too (in UXM 226, after the Australian retcon)… It doesn't really change your point, I'm just mentioning it.
Thanks for the reminder, Lia… I’d forgotten about that. Despite no longer being able to visually confirm it, your jogging my memory has immediately unearthed an image in my mind of it being vocalised during the scene with John and Longshot saving a young boy from a T-Rex in a huge shopping complex.

I also have an image in my mind of the face of the Adversary looking quite similar to that of the Shadow King on the cover of that double-sized issue.

Aside from what a particular employee of Marvel told me, Chris Claremont himself said that he really wanted nothing to do with Cable… …for Claremont to hint that Ahab and a character that he didn't have much interest in were counterparts would involve a further story down the road that would change Cable under his own pen.
Maybe not, but Chris had worked at Marvel long enough to know that he would have to occasionally incorporate other characters… and since Louise S., a person Chris had the utmost respect for, was Cable’s co-creator, I suspect he inserted that panel to ensure a cohesive X-universe was maintained, leave another thread for her to run with later on, and pique the interest of readers, which we all know was one of his main talents, and why we love him so. If you doubt this, go back and look at the length of this thread and its predecessor.

When Cable was introduced, you’ll recall Louise was dropping hints left, right and centre that he was known by a great many established X-verse characters, including Freedom Force, Moira, Shiro Yoshida, Logan, so is it that difficult to consider Louise might have asked Chris to suggest a connection between him and Ahab that she could pick up later on.

Your theory is interesting, and if I was the writer of Excalibur I would ask for your permission to use it, but I think it's too much of a stretch for what was really planned down the road when the second issue of the book was being written.
Chris was known for having stories planned far in advance during the 80’s so I don’t think it is that much of a stretch. Otherwise, why would he have Jean become the Phoenix so early in his initial run if he didn’t intend to do something phenomenal with the character later on? He had the whole thing planned out from the word go, particularly with his introduction of Lilandra at the same time.

I think Ahab was bound to show up again after Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. His dialogue before he teleported out at the end indicated that.
Definitely! The plot concerning his return got reshaped and rolled into the initial Trevor Fitzroy plot of the Upstarts saga. If you look closely at Fitzroy’s introduction, you’ll recall his bringing mutants back from his future to serve as his minions in his play for power. This was apparently taken from the proposal for Ahab’s return, whereby he would pick up where he left off, opening the time portal to bring his minions back in time to our era, and lead him to extend his mission of destroying mutants to the present day. You’ll recall the cyberpunk look between those mutants Fitzroy brought back, and those Ahab retrieved (cf. X-Factor Annual #6, p. 12-13). I recall whilst reading those issues introducing Fitzroy thinking those escapees from the future had a look about them that was familiar.

A further clue is Fitzroy’s use of Sentinels against his opponents, which was certainly Ahab’s calling card.

But I know that a Days of Future Past sequel crossover was the editors' idea.
How do you know that? I suspect Chris, and Louise were asked to come up with a standalone story for the Annuals, and since Walt was asked to do the same for F4, they put their heads together and thought how could we make a story with all of our titles tie-in, and determined Franklin Richards and Rachel Grey was the key, hence the return to DoFP. I suspect the editors were sold on the idea. Since Chris and Louise had fun with previous annual events (think Asgard), they decided to use it as an opportunity to progress the direction Chris was heading in. In relation to Colin McKay, people can argue that he wasn’t going to become Ahab, but Chris obviously had some intention for him which definitely wasn’t the Kylun treatment, and I don’t see any other solutions to his identity besides the Master of the Hounds is all I’m saying.

Rachel's flashback in Uncanny X-Men #189 (first appearance of Hounds) shows that the Hounds were used by trained specialists in the US military. You'd think that Ahab would be there to introduce the Hounds (or at least just Rachel) to the military, but he wasn't.
Well, we do know a number of things about Ahab from his initial introduction, including the fact that he was definitely behind the scenes in Days of Future Past, since he refers to being responsible for running Franklin Richards into the ground (cf. NM Annual #6). According to the Hound he killed here, Ahab was bred to stop mutants (since he is somehow related to Rogue, this makes her existence worth noting). If he was young Colin, this would appear to have something to do with Jim Jaspers, since it was suggested he had some connection to the Warp (cf. Excalibur #2). Despite his working for the government, Ahab was also definitely a mutant, since he is referred to as a traitor by a mutant brought back from his time to become a hound (cf. X-Factor Annual #5).

Perhaps Colin might have been shown as such in Chris’s proposed Rachel Grey series, though I take your point, it is rather tenuous.

There is another possibility, however: the adult Colin might have been initially introduced as a government agent ala Freedom Force, and his bionic enhancement occurred later. That is, his being a multiple amputee could have been the result of a run-in with a mutant he was in pursuit of, and he came off second-best…

…perhaps to Cable! This might explain Cable’s shock in the legendary bone-of-contention that is UXM Annual #14, since Cable might have been convinced he had killed Colin McKay.

But the US military retrieved Colin and rebuilt him, Darth Vader/Weapon X-style, into the Master of the Hounds.

There are a few anomalies in the Days of Future Present storyline, though. Franklin reveals that in his timeline it was Rachel who led Ahab to him, and yet in Chris’s original storyline Rachel was imprisoned with him and the remaining X-Men when this occurred, and also sent Kate Pryde back to the present day to prevent this future from occurring – certainly not the actions of a mutant under Ahab’s control.

Yeah, the District X thing was originally Chris's idea
Whilst the location he intended setting it in, Mutant Town, was created by GM, Grant modelled it after Jokertown from the Wild Cards anthologies. What goes around comes around, considering Chris contributed a few stories to this series of books (worth tracking down for those who haven’t, by the way).

An interesting take, even without Grant’s run, would have been for the remaining Morlocks to begin setting up their own community aboveground, and the title exploring the social relations coming out of that, building infrastructure, establishing local government, etc. then issues arising with neighbouring non-mutant districts.

One query I have in relation to the Morlocks is why Sabertooth continued hunting them down when he no longer worked for Sinister?

I wonder if in the original run, when Alexi Vahzin and Val Cooper would have finally reached the X-Men, if Val would have put someone from Freedom Force on the team. Mystique, maybe, to start up the much-hinted-at Mystique/Forge/Storm triangle?
The pair would accordingly approach Xavier with the evidence they had gathered concerning the Shadow King, hoping to seek help in curbing the mounting threat.

How? Ideas bandied about were Val joining the team as government liaison (Charles knowing she was Mystique incognito) while the real Dr. Cooper would work as support team for Colonel Vazhin and Major Debra Levin while the further investigated what other international governments the Shadow King was manipulating (ala Excalibur #33).

Editorial later used the idea of Val as government liaison for the team and transplanted it upon their X-Factor revamp.

I meant from Bishop and Charlotte Jones in Uncanny X-Men #'s 469-471, or so.
I wouldn’t know since I have not been able to read the titles anymore. Thank Chrisc for forums like this one is all I can say.

This wasn't Louise's idea, or Rob's. This came later in the 90's, after both of them left. If only I could remember who it was. Anyway, it's a silly idea.
The idea of Nathaniel Sr. was DeFalco’s, Marvel’s EIC, later carried on by Tom Brevoort. However, the tie-in to the Richards clan came much earlier, when Walt, close collaborator of Chris and Louise’s, was author of the Fantastic Four (cf. #352). I think it would have been interesting for Cable to be the son of Nathaniel and Cassandra, but that’s just me.

I’ve heard that a number of red herrings for Cable’s identity were initially tossed around, including Frank Bohannan, Crimson Commando. The way it would be done was his being wounded during Operation: Desert Storm in much the same way Forge was during Vietnam, including losing his left eye, hand, arm, and leg, those same areas Cable had bionically enhanced. The story was accepted, Bohannon survives his injuries to be rescued by the government, but in the interim the editors change their minds, so Crimson Commando is instead turned into Cyborg X by Erik Larsen, so he can be utilised in the new X-Factor series. How they proposed getting Frank back in time as Cable is anyone’s guess, but it seems like their writing was never that planned and things were being plotted on the fly by this stage. No doubt editorial going into panic stations when they got wind of Image’s upcoming plans.

Seriously? Would that be Daryl Edelman or Suzanne Gaffney?
Either/or (not meant as a reference to my favourite Danish philosopher). I can reveal that you’re very warm, though.

Also had some of them confirmed by one of the X-office’s college interns from that period!

When you say 'suggested', does that mean that he/she said that that is what was going to happen, or just speculation?
They advised that if Chris ever gets to publish his samizdat, it will be a specific event that progresses his saga.

Fans might also be interested to know that despite Chris claiming in interview that after the conclusion of issue #300, he wasn’t sure where he was going, I am advised that he had the final word on Logan’s origin planned for #301-304.

Because I actually considered that being the answer, once.
Likewise, lo those many years ago! Puts the motive behind Forge and Mystique’s predicted partnership in a wholly different light, doesn’t it!?

What value would an offspring produced by their union have to the Shadow King I wonder? Speculate away!

Now that I think about it, was the alternate Jean's death in Excalibur (1st Series) #21 more in line with what Chris had planned?
Chris was using these alternate worlds to reveal the way his plots would have gone without editorial influence, hence why it took until these issues for him to reveal the Shadow King at the power behind the Club. He hadn’t been able to get away with it earlier, but in an alternate reality he could cut loose.

He first changed to Australian in the original Official Handbook, out in 1983.
Chris began the retcon even earlier, during Days of Future Past, when he has Pyro use the term ‘bogan’, specific Aussie slang for an idiot usually applied to the stereotypical ‘surfer dude’. Trust me, being an Aussie who grew up in a town with many ‘skegs’, I consider myself a bit of an expert. They are unfortunately a bit of an icon down here.

The only problem with this theory is that Chris Claremont has said in interviews that the showdown with the SK (leading up to UXM #300) would have been the final battle with the Shadow King.
And had he been able to write his saga unhindered, there were plenty of issues to bring this to fruition, approximately 35 in fact. We all know his “Mutant Wars” (slated to begin in UXM #271) was to be the first salvo, but the X-Tinction Agenda delayed it, and all the Mutant Genesis stuff in ’91 put it back even further.

BTW, any other hints given by the ex-assistant editor????????
I’ve had a few of my theories confirmed, as you’ll note from my above comments.

Was it in his power to control so many people at once?
Thanks to Marty P for identifying the specifics of my “train of thought”. Since there was only one Shadow King existing across the multiverse, and he was operating on those other-earths as shown in the Crosstime Caper, he comes to realise that his previous defeats are not due to Xavier being his superior, but because he was stretching himself a little thin. His final salvo would have him specifically focussing on the prime reality, so he’d be at his highest capacity, which we hadn’t seen him at before. He was also using those other alternate realities to practice his final scenario in, so he could be prepared for every possible outcome. One smart cookie! Makes for a rather unique way for how villains can put alternate worlds to use (puts him up there on a level with Immortus and Kang).

Maybe SK took her brother with him when he fled Karma's body.
Or maybe Chris had intended him to be the one who had taken Leong and Nga, and had sped up their growth to use the pair as his anchor.

I'm not sure if Claremont really decided on using the Shadow King at the time New Mutants (1st Series) #'s 5-6 was published. Could be. I'm not sure. Xavier didn't seem to recognize the telepath back then.
Maybe the character would definitely be the Shadow King but maybe he didn’t initially intend to use Farouk! I will grant you that Farouk started out as the corpulent crimelord of Cairo, and eventually mutated into an entirely different character, with there being countless examples of this. Of particular note is the fact that despite Xavier previously killing him in psychic battle, after that member of Team America accidentally explodes the crystal (cf. NM #6) releasing the mutant to possess Karma, when it mind-blasted Charles, he unequivocally stated that it was “a psychic assault, the likes of which I’ve never experienced... A new mutant, possessing unknown powers, unimaginable abilities.” Doesn’t sound much like Farouk now, does it?

It is interesting that the psychic entity in X-Men: Heroes for Hope claimed to have been the enemy of Storm’s African ancestors, millennia ago. This sounded much like the background later shoehorned onto the Shadow King. During this issue Rogue was possessed by this entity after touching its manifested physical form. The Shadow King later claimed Rogue had once absorbed him, and since there is no other instance where this happened, I suspect Chris was referring to this issue. I also wonder when Chris ret-conned Amahl Farouk into being the Shadow King whether he had recalled the entity claims to be the dark side of human thought in H4H, since part of this revelation includes his being some manifestation of the collective dark side of humanity’s consciousness.

The Shadow King claims to have manipulated the development of Destiny, Mystique, Xavier and Rogue. He elaborated on how he did this with Irene and Mystique, i.e. upon learning of the diaries Destiny began transcribing when she was a young girl, he began influencing her future visions to be dark, ensuring that both she and Mystique would become hardened terrorists in their attempts to change it, consequently ensuring the future shown in DoFP would come to pass through their actions cementing humanity’s further distrust and fear of mutants, we never got the details of his influence upon Rogue and Charles.

I have previously put down my own theory in relation to how he manipulated Rogue’s development, as Mastermind, but in relation to Charles was Chris implying more than SK’s convincing him of the need to fight against evil mutants by forming the X-Men when he suggested he had manipulated his development. The interesting thing this comment might do, however, is suggest that Chris is now in the camp that the Shadow King recognised the threat Charles posed to his plans, and so lured him to kill his host, Farouk, so Charles would be convinced he had defeated the threat. However, what would the Shadow King have to gain by convincing Charles to gather together powerful mutants to defeat threats such as himself? Perhaps to influence the rise of good and evil mutant groups in the knowledge that they would violently oppose one another with their powers, thus producing super aggression that he could feed off to further increase his power!? Or were Shadow King’s comments about manipulating Charles’s development implying that he had influenced Xavier’s childhood as well? This would suggest that he was behind Cain’s bullying of Charles when they were young. What do people think?

While Chris might not have initially intended Farouk to be behind the Gladiators or the Shadow King, once he came up with the idea, it must have been irresistible to go with.

At least we think he succeeded in escaping. Perhaps CC had another surprise up his sleeve, with this one.
It would seem this was going to be the case. Recall SK had manipulated Irene’s visions all those years, why not toward the end also. I suspect there was a more sinister purpose behind Mystique and Forge getting together, undoubtedly unbeknownst to Raven.

Reisz was having a heart attack, and at the exact moment of his death, the Shadow King leaped into his body and took control. So the SK has different ways to take possession of people.
Chris revealed in his early run on Dr. Strange that upon death, every being initially passes through the Astral Plane, so that’s no doubt how SK gained possession of Jacob.

There were no hints of Forge being possessed between Uncanny X-Men #'s 254-278.
By all accounts, the major editorial influence began choking the stories toward the end of Acts of Vengeance, and instead of issue #271 being the opening salvo for Chris’s “Mutant Wars” we ended up with X-Tinction Agenda instead. The signs would have been there earlier had Chris had more control.

I think Guido was going to be absolutely trustworthy. I've figured out a lot about what Claremont was going to do with him, and although CC himself hasn't confirmed any of my thoughts, it seems like it was what Claremont was going to do, logically. I'm going off his earliest appearances and what Claremont said here on X-fan about how he originally thought up Guido.
With bait like that you can’t leave us hanging! What were the details and your thoughts?

Was it always Chris Claremont's intentions to have the New Mutants graduate into joining the X-Men?
There were a few alternatives shown. When Xavier and co. rescue the teenage New Mutants from being butchered by Sentinels, Bobby notes that in this particular future, Dani and Sam were the Schools sole survivors (cf. New Mutants #50). When Bobby swears to prevent this future from coming to pass it becomes obvious that in rescuing him and Amara from this timeline, Xavier ensures they will grow up to become the Hellfire Club dictators shown earlier in that issue. This particular future appears to be the more likely one to come to pass, since direct reference is made by Bobby about events indicative of those occurring in the lead up to Days of Future Past. [this was a great issue by the way, with lots of little easter eggs, including the Micronauts among those aliens in the cantina scenes, and Professor X bearing the insignia of the U.S.S. Nostromo on his fatigues]

However, during Days of Future Present, Banshee refers to Cannonball, Sunspot, and Wolfsbane being dead by this time (New Mutants Annual #6).

If enough had voted for Chris to pen a Days of Future Past title, perhaps we’d have finally found out, but alas.

Now for a number of seeming unrelated abandoned plots Chris left behind during his first tenure at Marvel readers of this thread might be interested in speculating about:

1. It was never revealed how Jubilee became conversant in Russian, but the evidence is there when she overhears Black Widow calling Wolvie “little uncle” in her native Russian (cf. UXM #268, p. 15).

2. While tied up by Loki, Nightcrawler teleports out of his bonds, wraps his tail around Cyke's mouth, and then kisses Rogue, thereby somehow transferring both his and Scott's powers to Rogue, an incredible scene with absolutely no precedence and no reference to it later. Was it all the healthy Asgardian air, or was something else going on for the pair to not end up affected ala Carol Danvers?

3. Princess Shialmar overthrew the tyranny of the Wizard Kings of their realm. However, after one thousand years of rule without challenge, Dr. Strange formed an alliance with the last descendant of the Wizard Kings, Prince Bayan/Silver Fox, who lead a rebellion against her. Upon Chris return to Marvel by writing Heroes Return title, the Fantastic Four, he introduced Bayan, the prince of an unnamed Asian country, forced to go into self-appointed exile. Was Chris attempting to connect the two?

4. Before Chris’s sabbatical from New Excalibur, it sounds like he was suggesting Dazzler could not be killed. What’s with that?

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[Post 172]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 8, 2007 12:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did CC ever touch on the storyline of the Z'nox? Possibly in X-men Classics (sp?)?
And Lucifer was the alien who crippled Charles? Did CC ever revisit that? Charles told Jean that Lucifer's attack is why he originally formed the X-Men, to thwart future attacks.
And can anyone tell me how the X-Men and Xavier originally became involved in the Shi'ar. Who contacted who first and why?
Add the above alien races to the Technarchy and the Brood, is this a complete list of aliens primarily connected/associated with the Xavier?

The N'Garai were demons or aliens?

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[Post 173]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Jan 8, 2007 02:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Charles told Jean that Lucifer's attack is why he originally formed the X-Men, to thwart future attacks.
Yes. Then CC suggested the same about Farouk.

I wonder if Chris intended to reveal Sage's finding Xavier in the cavefall caused by Lucifer as having something to do with the Shadow King/Bogan. Did he know Lucifer.

The other interesting thing about Sage is her living in the Balkans. Was this some attempt to connect her to Viper, since Chris had his plot concerning her connection to Spider-Woman squashed?

The N'Garai were demons or aliens?

The earlier.

[Marty P]

Part three:

[Post 174]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 8, 2007 02:29 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

@Jrnewto, actually you mentioned the Adversary's face appearing on the cover to Uncanny X-Men #226. The more I think of it, it also highly resembles Bogan!

I view this Bogan/Adversary/Shadow King persona as a three-headed Beast. Like the three-headed beast of mythical yore (whose name escapes me), they are all one being. But each "head" has it's own ideas and plans. So yes, all 3 are the same creature, but each with it's own identity.

Jrnewto has definitely been doing some homework, contacting assistant editors and college interns. I never would have considered doing this. I hope that Claremont releases his samizdat, for to me that would be the "Real" X-Men's history. But I seriously doubt he would divulge this. What would be his advantage??

2) Wolverine's Origin: Claremont saying he did not know where he was headed after Uncanny X-Men #300 I took it to mean the general direction of the mutant world. Where the world lead after the death of Charles Xavier/near apocalyptic war between humans & muties.

I question Logan's origin being revealed in Uncanny X-Men #301-304. Claremont has flat-out stated numerous times he feels Wolverine's mysterious past should remain mysterious. Revealing it all would greatly dilute the popularity and mystique of Wolverine, in CC's eyes. He was against the Paul Jenkins' Origins mini but had little power to stop it.

My reaction to his potential mysteries revealed in #301-304 would be the Baron von Strucker/or Red Skull revelation as mastermind behind the Weapon X programme. And likely leftover major repercussions from the Dark Wolverine saga, which was to end around that time.

3) The Mutant Wars: I suspect this was all about:

A) the Shadow King and his evil quest to spread hate throughout Earth. Manipulating the many factions of mutants at that time. And possibly, this spilling over into the SK's true purpose, the conquest of Otherworld. (Thus tying Excalibur and Uncanny X-Men continuity into a neat nice bow.)

B) Wolverine's possessed by the Hand, which I think would have tied into the many supporting characters in Logan's life (Mariko, Jessica Drew, Viper, Madripoor and the Yoshida Clan.)

C) More and more mutants: Claremont touched on this theme time and again during his final years. More & more muties, more cunning and ruthless than ever before, in an unstable world. And more growing factions (X-Factor, X-Force, Genosha, Marauders, Reavers, Hellfire Club, Morlocks, WildBoys, Magneto's Acolytes, Muir Isle Mutates, etc.) Each with their own individual sets and goals, all completely separate from Xavier's Dream. How would the X-Men deal with all this? The Times they were a'changin' !

I theorize this was his Mutant Wars. Culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300 with the death of Charles Xavier. Do the mutants win?

4) Charles Xavier/Shadow King: Could the Shadow King have WANTED Amahl Farouk to be killed by Xavier, to set into motion some long-term plan? Is Claremont that deep a plotter? I like Jrnewto's theory, but it seems to hard to swallow. I do like this idea that the SK had multiple identities across the multiverse, and he finally brings them "all together" in his quest to conquer Earth leading up to UXM #300.

5) Jacob Reisz: I agree with Jrnewto and his mention of Dr. Strange. As revealed by Claremont, each person enters the Astral Plane at death, and in the case of poor Jacob Reisz, the Shadow King seized him in the Astral Plane and took control of his body in Uncanny X-Men #253.

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[Post 175]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 8, 2007 03:03 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I view this Bogan/Adversary/Shadow King persona as a three-headed Beast. Like the three-headed beast of mythical yore (whose name escapes me), they are all one being. But each "head" has it's own ideas and plans. So yes, all 3 are the same creature, but each with it's own identity.
That is a lot like how Satan is described in Dante's Inferno. Three heads or faces. That makes for a very interesting observation and comparison.

4) Charles Xavier/Shadow King: Could the Shadow King have WANTED Amahl Farouk to be killed by Xavier, to set into motion some long-term plan?

What if, Farouk had performed a feat like Psylocke and imprisoned the Shadow King in his own mind (long before Xavier and he had their psychic duel). Then slowly over time, the SK corrupts Farouk making him into a crimelord/Kingpin type (as the SK has been shown to do in almost every instance of possession). Along comes Xavier and the two duel, Farouk is defeated and the SK is freed to continue his course.
What if Farouk's interest in Storm was before he encountered the SK. Farouk was a telepath, he could've been more like Xavier or more like someone gathering an army of mutants (to fight the SK).
I'm just following where my mind is wandering.

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[Post 176]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 8, 2007 03:25 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did CC ever touch on the storyline of the Z'nox? Possibly in X-men Classics (sp?)?

I don't believe Claremont ever wrote the Z'nox.


And Lucifer was the alien who crippled Charles? Did CC ever revisit that? Charles told Jean that Lucifer's attack is why he originally formed the X-Men, to thwart future attacks.

Lucifer was the person responsible for Charles' crippled legs. This was revealed in an early issue of Uncanny X-Men. Claremont though has never touched upon it much. He did show Xavier's rescue from the caves (where the rocks had crushed his legs) by Sage in X-Treme X-Men.

And can anyone tell me how the X-Men and Xavier originally became involved in the Shi'ar. Who contacted who first and why?

Charles Xavier began having nightmares, first shown in UXM #97. Charles saw visions of a great space battle, with many deaths. And then one mysterious figure, who was "calling to him". This was later revealed to be coming from Princess Lilandra, who was somehow calling to Xavier, the most powerful telepath on Earth, to help the Sh'iar.

So the Sh'iar contacted the X-Men first. Finally around Uncanny X-Men #106, 107, the X-Men travel to Sh'iar space for the first time, and do battle with the Imperial Guard. We first meet the Starjammers and several classic Sh'iar supporting characters. The M'Kraan Crystal is disintegrating, and it must be saved or the whole universe will be lost. Jean Grey uses her immense Phoenix powers for the very first time, in entering the M'Kraan Crystal and sealing the cracks. She uses the "essence" of her fellow X-Men to do this, and they are all bonded together in a rather emotional scene.

This classic by Cockrum/Byrne/Claremont is a must-have for X-fans. Ties between the Sh'iar and Earth are formed here which still have bearing to this day. It is almost like a foreshadowing to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Add the above alien races to the Technarchy and the Brood, is this a complete list of aliens primarily connected/associated with the Xavier?

As alien races go, I can think of the Brood, Sh'iar, Technarchy, N'Garai. They have had dealings with the Skrulls during Alan Davis' run. And were on the Skull Homeworld when Galactus destroyed it (they barely escaped!)

Also, the WarSkrulls (an offshoot of the Skrulls) have been a thorn in their side. They were first introduced in Uncanny X-Men #275-277. And recently were major adversaries in X-Men: The End.

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[Post 177]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Jan 8, 2007 11:20 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Thanks for the reminder, Lia… I’d forgotten about that. Despite no longer being able to visually confirm it, your jogging my memory has immediately unearthed an image in my mind of it being vocalised during the scene with John and Longshot saving a young boy from a T-Rex in a huge shopping complex.

Excellent memory! That was indeed the scene.

I’ve heard that a number of red herrings for Cable’s identity were initially tossed around, including Frank Bohannan, Crimson Commando. The way it would be done was his being wounded during Operation: Desert Storm in much the same way Forge was during Vietnam, including losing his left eye, hand, arm, and leg, those same areas Cable had bionically enhanced. The story was accepted, Bohannon survives his injuries to be rescued by the government, but in the interim the editors change their minds, so Crimson Commando is instead turned into Cyborg X by Erik Larsen, so he can be utilised in the new X-Factor series. How they proposed getting Frank back in time as Cable is anyone’s guess, but it seems like their writing was never that planned and things were being plotted on the fly by this stage. No doubt editorial going into panic stations when they got wind of Image’s upcoming plans.

Well, Larsen said that he and Fabian Nicieza planned to maim Commando and turn him into a cyborg for use in X-Factor (and when their proposal was rejected in favour of Peter David's, Larsen ultimately took the cyborg design over to Image. The resulting Super-Patriot character had a background similar to Commando's). I hadn't heard anything about him being Cable.

Chris began the retcon even earlier, during Days of Future Past, when he has Pyro use the term ‘bogan’, specific Aussie slang for an idiot usually applied to the stereotypical ‘surfer dude’. Trust me, being an Aussie who grew up in a town with many ‘skegs’, I consider myself a bit of an expert. They are unfortunately a bit of an icon down here.

Hmm, I don't believe he has ever used that word. Certainly in Days of Future Past, one gets an 'ultra-British' vibe off of him -- mostly visual, because Byrne really made him look effeminate and even had bad teeth in his debut scene

For fun and entertainment, here's all of his dialogue in UXM 141-142:

Blob: “Hey, Ray, you helped me bust outta the joint, ya got me threads, bread, a classy pad --- fer that I'm grateful. I just don't take orders from a broad.”
Pyro: “Well lah-dee-dah, chunky. You think you can do better?”
Blob: “Blow it out your Union Jack, limey. This is between me an' — Yeeeow!”
Pyro: “Watch your mouth, and remember your place, or the next time you light a match…I'll create a demon that will par-broil, instead of scare, you.”

“So, Colossus, you've the power to transform yourself into some form of metal. I wonder; can that metal melt?”

“Tsk. Tsk. A bad move, gentlemen --- using fire against one who can shape those flames into anything he chooses…and then turn them against you. I trust you all have adequate pensions. Your families will soon need them.”


He started getting more laidback and cheery as he was retconned into an Aussie. Early-English-Pyro and later-Australian-Pyro are very different.

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[Post 178]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 9, 2007 11:00 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Like the three-headed beast of mythical yore (whose name escapes me)
Cerberus.


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[Post 179]
Author : jdh
Date : Jan 10, 2007 02:25 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I'm curious to learn more about Gateway. CC has portrayed him as an unmoving "guardian", seldom showing emotion - except to appear deeply sadden at times (that's how I've read him).
I thought it was odd that CC would add to Gateway's past that he, at some point had a child or children, as he is the great grandfather of Bishop.
Makes me wonder if he sent them away, like, through time and space through one of his portals. I wonder if he stays where he is and is waiting to be reunited with them.
He has interacted with Jubilee, to save her. And as I took to come in contact with the X-Men. And he as interacted with Chamber. He delivered Penance to Gen-X. And he was a mentor to the St. Croix twins.

I wonder if CC made him Bishop's great grandfather as a connection (explanation) to Bishop being time tossed so much.

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[Post 180]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Jan 11, 2007 11:41 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Why is the Shadow King interested in the indigenous people of Africa, Europe and North America -- for instance?

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Well done noticing that less obvious connection! I look forward to hearing what you think this specifically implies.
More than that, the Shadow King is interested in holy leaders (ie, the leaders like priests, shamans, etc.) of these indigenous cultures. Maybe he's trying to "infect" a people's original beliefs at the closest or best informed source of their religious knowledge, like poisoning a village well.

In the case of Storm and Forge, it's perhaps a different scenario, since they both were bred to be holy leaders and to also fight the Shadow King. It can also be said that as mutants, (ie. the next step in humanity) they are the pinnacle of their family line as warriors in this spiritual fight. Thus, not only do they present a greater danger against the Shadow King, they could do more damage for him if they sucessfully get turned evil.

In the earlier version of this thread, I mentioned that maybe even Bishop could eventually join such a struggle vs. the Shadow King, via his relation to Gateway. Even Storm is not completely at her full spiritual potential, either (not having been fully trained by her mother's people), so this might be a problem for her should such a war break out.

So perhaps having the Shadow King possess the holy leaders is parallel with his mating with one of his Shadow Queens -- choosing a "special" woman, tainting her and then using their children for evil purposes. The parallel would be if the tainted holy leader could then "infect" their community, ie. their spiritual children. This might be made easier if the holy leader had psionic powers (which Forge and Storm both possess). The leader's spiritual children then become the Shadow King's children.

Re. Is Bishop really a follower of Xavier's Dream?:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Still a law contrary to Xavier’s “Dream”, something Bishop would know if he was such an adherent to it, as he claimed to be during these issues.
You make an interesting statement, which brings to mind Xavier's quote in UXM Annual #14 about Bishop being so devoted to the Dream that "he would kill for it" -- or die for it, as the above book shows...

IMO, the ultimate problem here is that Bishop and his world (Earth 1119) have never really been elaborated on or respected by creators, especially with the origins of the Gene War and its major players. So the end result is that no one really knows of Bishop's past, the XSE and their tactics, etc.

Obviously, somewhere along the line, Bishop reconciled his earlier teaching of the X-Men alongside his joining the XSE (which was initially said to be a school). And as a orphaned child thrown out of a concentration camp into homelessness, Bishop actually hated the XSE, seeing them as anti-mutant sellouts, until they saved his sister (re. XSE #1).

Bishop's knowledge of the X-Men came from what information survived the apparent severe media blackout around the time of the Gene War (ie. World War 3), as well as legends, XSE teachings, etc. He came from a shattered Earth that barely emerged from the violence that destroyed an entire continent. Yet Bishop is not a murderer. Even if Bishop was a pacifist in the model of Xavier, it's not clear to me how Bishop could survive in the world he lived in (Earth 1119), protect others perhaps (even from themselves) without some serious forms of self defense. IMO, that takes nothing away from his character or beliefs. Obviously, if Bishop's world was a different place, maybe he'd use different tactics. Who knows? But I can't really see Bishop acting like most of the Earth 616 X-Men in order to live another day in his world or to help others live there -- which was his job.

Just about all of the X-Men have killed -- in UXM #143, Kitty's rite of passage was said to be when she killed an alien in Xavier's mansion. I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine killed more beings than any and all the X-Men, Bishop included and Dark Phoenix excluded. And I've seen people describe Wolverine as being the "soul of the X-Men"!!

It's sort of like Cable's views vs. the X-Men's views in UXM #273. One can debate the validity of one view vs. the other, but IMO both people or sides have validity and it doesn't make either person or side any less (or more) of an X-Man. Especially considering that both sides want the same thing. And especially considering the different circumstances, different cultures, etc. the characters were involved in during the times when they killed.

Did Trevor Fitzroy take the place of Ahab in UXM #280?:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

You’ll recall the cyberpunk look between those mutants Fitzroy brought back, and those Ahab retrieved (cf. X-Factor Annual #6, p. 12-13). I recall whilst reading those issues introducing Fitzroy thinking those escapees from the future had a look about them that was familiar.

A further clue is Fitzroy’s use of Sentinels against his opponents, which was certainly Ahab’s calling card.
This is most interesting... I have never thought of it like that. It's also said that Fitzroy's father was a member of the Hierarchy (re. UXM #301), while in the much earlier UXM Annual #14, Ahab mentions working for a "Hierarchy" as well -- I believe they might have even been the ones responsible for Ahab's coming to Earth 616 in the first place.

What does this parallel with Ahab say about the untold Upstarts storyline that Fitzroy was a part of, with their quest for immortality?

Re. Sage:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

The other interesting thing about Sage is her living in the Balkans.

I wondered about that, is Sage from Europe, or she's from Hindu Kush??? Is she from Europe? Why is she grey-skinned??

-- DN

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[Post 181]
Author : zonzorp
Date : Jan 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I wondered about that, is Sage from Europe, or she's from Hindu Kush??? Is she from Europe? Why is she grey-skinned??

-- DN
Sage is not grey-skinned.
CC has said on several occasions that she is of Greek and Welsh ancestry.

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[Post 182]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Jan 11, 2007 11:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Sage is not grey-skinned.
CC has said on several occasions that she is of Greek and Welsh ancestry.

If Sage is supposed to be a brown or olive skinned person of European origin, why not just color her like that? I thought the whole idea of coloring people grey in comics was more than archaic, given the reality of computer coloring and, well, reality in general...

If Sage is of European ancestry, how did she get to Asia as a teenager?? And what of the flashbacks in XXM of her first meeting Xavier while dressed in oversized clothing and looking frightened?

-- DN

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[Post 183]
Author : zonzorp
Date : Jan 12, 2007 12:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

If Sage is supposed to be a brown or olive skinned person of European origin, why not just color her like that? I thought the whole idea of coloring people grey in comics was more than archaic, given the reality of computer coloring and, well, reality in general...
Sage is supposed to be pale, not grey. Only the cover colorists for a certain period late in the XXM run ever colored her grey, and they were mistaken to do so.

If Sage is of European ancestry, how did she get to Asia as a teenager?? And what of the flashbacks in XXM of her first meeting Xavier while dressed in oversized clothing and looking frightened?

-- DN
Nobody knows. Maybe CC will get around to answering these questions in NEX.

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[Post 184]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 12, 2007 07:38 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

If Sage is of European ancestry, how did she get to Asia as a teenager?? And what of the flashbacks in XXM of her first meeting Xavier while dressed in oversized clothing and looking frightened?

-- DN


Nobody knows. Maybe CC will get around to answering these questions in NEX.
Didn't CC planned to tell the full story between Sage and Prof X in an X-men: Year Zero (or something like that ) project that he planned somewhere during X-treme?

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[Post 185]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Jan 14, 2007 10:41 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, Larsen said that he and Fabian Nicieza planned to maim Commando and turn him into a cyborg for use in X-Factor (and when their proposal was rejected in favour of Peter David's, Larsen ultimately took the cyborg design over to Image. The resulting Super-Patriot character had a background similar to Commando's). I hadn't heard anything about him being Cable.

I recall reading about Super Patriot et al. back in ‘93. However, like all X-ideas at that time, the editors managed to change them slightly and introduce them elsewhere.

PD’s X-Factor proposal was accepted toward the latter half of 1990, since his team was described in the Marvel & Epic Capital City publication released in November 1990. Yet despite their proposal being rejected, Fabian continued on with his plot of Crimson Commando being severely maimed during the Kings of Pain, and Erik introduced Cyborg X into Spider-Man #16, with him crying out Avalanche’s name (Dominic). The editors thought it might be a good idea to throw out red herrings in relation to Cable’s identity, so they at one time considered Commando, but the idea was rejected before any major hints were released.

Another idea considered after the Gambit and Wolverine Ltd Series, Victims, was revealing Chamber as the son of Remy and British policewoman, Alexandra Davies.

Hmm, I don't believe he has ever used that word.

My mistake… you’re right of course. As soon as I read your post, I recalled Pyro’s using the term bogan in Captain America, when Val Cooper was talking to the CSA’s latest recruit for the flagged costume, Johnnie Walker (issue #333 if I recall correctly, written by Gruenwald). So who, besides the Official Handbook, was the first to imply his being Australian?

I thought it was odd that CC would add to Gateway's past that he, at some point had a child or children, as he is the great grandfather of Bishop.

Obviously not Chris’s initial intention, but his making the best out of a bad situation! I credit him for making an Australian Aborigine a high profile of the team. If Chris had the main X-title, it would have been a good opportunity for the culture to get a more positive exposure than it will here in Australia.

Makes me wonder if he sent them away, like, through time and space through one of his portals.

I like the implication.

More than that, the Shadow King is interested in holy leaders (ie, the leaders like priests, shamans, etc.) of these indigenous cultures. Maybe he's trying to "infect" a people's original beliefs at the closest or best informed source of their religious knowledge, like poisoning a village well… … In the case of Storm and Forge, it's perhaps a different scenario, since they both were bred to be holy leaders and to also fight the Shadow King. It can also be said that as mutants, (ie. the next step in humanity) they are the pinnacle of their family line as warriors in this spiritual fight. Thus, not only do they present a greater danger against the Shadow King, they could do more damage for him if they sucessfully get turned evil.

I like this more. Such an implication can readily be adduced.

So perhaps having the Shadow King possess the holy leaders is parallel with his mating with one of his Shadow Queens -- choosing a "special" woman, tainting her and then using their children for evil purposes. The parallel would be if the tainted holy leader could then "infect" their community, ie. their spiritual children. This might be made easier if the holy leader had psionic powers (which Forge and Storm both possess). The leader's spiritual children then become the Shadow King's children.

Analogous to the legend of the Watchers in the Book of Enoch, with one myth relating that Satanail initiated their rebellion because he wanted Adam’s line tainted with fallen angel DNA, so he could control the messiah later down the line.

And as a orphaned child thrown out of a concentration camp into homelessness, Bishop actually hated the XSE, seeing them as anti-mutant sellouts, until they saved his sister

The kernel of that comment I’m most attracted to is his being an orphan. David R can figure out why this is the case.

The creation of the XSE made me uneasy somehow, sensing some element of Heinleinian soldiery in this conception of the X-Men. Recall Xavier’s Security Enforcers were a group supposedly created to allow mutants to police themselves, but in reality were a team of mutants who eliminated other mutants. X-writers at the time were not the first to intimate this into the title, however, since it went back as far as Lee and Kirby’s conception of the team. Recall Professor X forming the X-Men “to protect mankind from those… from the evil mutants”. The X-Men appeared more interested in protecting their oppressors than fighting for their freedom. Ensuring equality was secondary. They used their mutant abilities to protect a world that hated and feared them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine killed more beings than any and all the X-Men

Yet upon joining the team he began working toward controlling his berserker rages, and redeeming his past sins. This was behind the conception of him as a samurai.

It's also said that Fitzroy's father was a member of the Hierarchy (re. UXM #301), while in the much earlier UXM Annual #14, Ahab mentions working for a "Hierarchy" as well -- I believe they might have even been the ones responsible for Ahab's coming to Earth 616 in the first place.

That’s very interesting. I suspect this was evolved out of Chris’s plans for Ahab.

You might find interesting that in issue #142 of Comic Shop News (cf. 14th of March, 1990) refers to an interview with Liefeld advising that the NM #90 we saw in print would feature “a new, deadlier-than-ever Caliban, who has been groomed by Apocalypse to be the First Hound,” would directly tie in to the upcoming “Days of Future Present” storyline appearing in all the mutant annuals. Louise had revealed Apocalypse as being responsible for Caliban’s transformation, yet Ahab was responsible for those other Hounds, so what was the deal?

I wondered about that, is Sage from Europe

I wondered if Chris was intending to transfer his plot of Jessica Drew being Viper’s daughter onto Tessa.

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[Post 186]
Author : Soundwave
Date : Jan 14, 2007 11:26 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I wondered if Chris was intending to transfer his plot of Jessica Drew being Viper's daughter onto Tessa.I don't care for this thread, but I just wanted to shoot down this idea.
Once upon a time, a long long time ago, in a Marvel far, far away, I did indeed have the notion that Viper was Jessica Drew's mom. A character arc that lasted precisely as long as my tenure on the title. The editor, Mark Gruenwald, had significantly different notions. End of that story.

However, although Sage has indeed passed through the Balkans at some point in her youth, I think it's a mistake to assume that is where she was born. That said, she and Meriem Drew [Viper] are not related. Sorry.

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

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[Post 187]
Author : shame bear
Date : Jan 15, 2007 04:51 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Another idea considered after the Gambit and Wolverine Ltd Series, Victims, was revealing Chamber as the son of Remy and British policewoman, Alexandra Davies

where was this revealed?

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[Post 188]
Author : spam
Date : Jan 15, 2007 07:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

......
Unfortunately, in an ironic twist, the Fantastic Four return to the same period, and it is their interference (Fantastic Four v.1 #19) that prevents Rama-Tut from stopping Apocalypse before he begins his meteoric rise to power.

Wow.
Thanks for all that man. I'm only halfway through this thread and I had to stop and post here and thank you for spending the time to put all that into text. I've often sat around thinking about all the plots CC started up only to never get to finish...(imho) he's the kind of writer that shines best one really really long runs, I love the way he planned/plans out so much.

Anyway, back I go to lurking, but this time with an even longer list of back issues to dig up.

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[Post 189]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Jan 15, 2007 12:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

PD’s X-Factor proposal was accepted toward the latter half of 1990, since his team was described in the Marvel & Epic Capital City publication released in November 1990. Yet despite their proposal being rejected, Fabian continued on with his plot of Crimson Commando being severely maimed during the Kings of Pain, and Erik introduced Cyborg X into Spider-Man #16, with him crying out Avalanche’s name (Dominic). The editors thought it might be a good idea to throw out red herrings in relation to Cable’s identity, so they at one time considered Commando, but the idea was rejected before any major hints were released.

It would certainly be odd (but not impossible, given time travel and stuff) for Frank to have been Cable, since the two of them appear together in Cable's second issue! I did notice that Simonson had Commando seeming less psycho in that issue than she usually did -- I have a real beef with the way she wrote him overall.

My mistake… you’re right of course. As soon as I read your post, I recalled Pyro’s using the term bogan in Captain America, when Val Cooper was talking to the CSA’s latest recruit for the flagged costume, Johnnie Walker (issue #333 if I recall correctly, written by Gruenwald). So who, besides the Official Handbook, was the first to imply his being Australian?

Ah, you're thinking of 'bodgie'! That's what he said in CA #333. Freedom Force was laughing at Walker, and Pyro says "Ha! What a bodgie!", which the editorial box explains is "Australian slang for 'jerk'."

That issue was the first to imply his nationality change, unless you count Claremont's earlier issues having him say "cobber" (Uncanny X-Men #177 and #199). I realize the word is hardly unique to Australia, but it does seem to be associated with it, and Claremont also had him use it in a couple of later issues in which he's already established as Australian (UXM #226 and #255). So I consider 'cobber' to be a possible kind of oblique, indirect reference.

Also, UXM #177 came out only a few months after the Official Handbook established the retcon.

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[Post 190]
Author : Lord Morbid
Date : Jan 17, 2007 06:50 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.

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[Post 191]
Author : ineris
Date : Jan 17, 2007 12:31 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Starchild :

Charlotte Jones has disapeared.... again (remember the Neo) !

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[Post 192]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Jan 17, 2007 07:01 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To jrnewto & others re. a Mystique/Forge/Storm love triangle:

The concept of Mystique/Forge/Storm I find interesting. Didn't you state that Nightcrawler was supposed to be the Shadow King's son? And obviously, the Shadow King has an old interest in Forge and Storm.

Re. Bishop as an orphan:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

The kernel of that comment I’m most attracted to is his being an orphan. David R can figure out why this is the case.Actually, that reason was given as early as the 1990's in Marvel.com's Cerebro Files -- it stated that Bishop's parents were "seemingly killed".

The creation of the XSE made me uneasy somehow, sensing some element of Heinleinian soldiery in this conception of the X-Men. Recall Xavier’s Security Enforcers were a group supposedly created to allow mutants to police themselves, but in reality were a team of mutants who eliminated other mutants. X-writers at the time were not the first to intimate this into the title, however, since it went back as far as Lee and Kirby’s conception of the team. Recall Professor X forming the X-Men “to protect mankind from those… from the evil mutants”. The X-Men appeared more interested in protecting their oppressors than fighting for their freedom. Ensuring equality was secondary. They used their mutant abilities to protect a world that hated and feared them.So did the XSE, whose objects were exactly the ones you stated from the X-Men of Marvel's Golden Age.

The world the XSE lived in was genetically segregated. According to the books, the XSE was around "to keep mutants on a tight leash" and to enforce the law. Hounds were mutants who eliminated their own, not the XSE. The fact that "XSE" initially stood for Xavier's School Enforcers, as well as the untold story of the XSE Mini relating to Bishop's role as an XSE teacher, plus Bishop mentioning in UXM about having responsiblity over young XSE recruits, doesn't make the XSE stand for a group whose job was to eliminate mutants at all. This plus the fact that in NY at least, the XSE's prison only held 93 criminals with lifelong sentences -- in a world existing after WW3 -- means something obvious to me. If the XSE was to eliminate mutants, why have mutants in jails at all??

Another important difference is that for mutants, the XSE was the law. Initially, the X-Men lived as outlaws. The whole idea of the X-Men "protecting a world that hates and fears them" was, last I checked, a slogan created for them during the 1990's. IMO, that idea explains most superhero teams anyway -- including the XSE.

IMO, the core of your question deals with policies in the 1990's that taught fans to think of Xavier as a Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi type. This was done along with making Bishop and his past irrelevant. Xavier himself was no saint -- recall his acts as the Entity, for instance -- and he never chastised Colossus for killing Proteus or Kitty for killing a N'Garai (for example).

Re. Wolverine's violent behavior:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Yet upon joining the team he began working toward controlling his berserker rages, and redeeming his past sins. This was behind the conception of him as a samurai.From what I know, the idea of Wolverine as a samurai was not an initial part of his character and was introduced years later. Regardless, Wolverine's body count is immense, and should never be discredited. Wolverine is not above killing for revenge ie., murder. And at many times Wolverine has lashed out at his teammates -- even after years of working with them -- to the point of nearly killing them. Even after years of living under Xavier's roof has he done this. None of this is the case with Bishop. At any rate, just about all the X-Men have killed, and they have transformed themselves -- including Bishop.

Re. Ahab & Hounds:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

You might find interesting that in issue #142 of Comic Shop News (cf. 14th of March, 1990) refers to an interview with Liefeld advising that the NM #90 we saw in print would feature “a new, deadlier-than-ever Caliban, who has been groomed by Apocalypse to be the First Hound,” would directly tie in to the upcoming “Days of Future Present” storyline appearing in all the mutant annuals. Louise had revealed Apocalypse as being responsible for Caliban’s transformation, yet Ahab was responsible for those other Hounds, so what was the deal?What your question has in common is Apocalypse's tech which is Celestial tech. There are two answers I can think of -- the 1989 interpretation and the 1990's one. The 1990's interpretation of this has nothing to do with any of Chris Claremont's plotlines, but here it goes:

Your question about the "First Hound" made me recall the book with the "First Genoshan", a Mr. Edgarton. Perhaps he was purposely mentioned in X-MEN PRIME, along with Lady Gayle Edgarton of England and who was linked to Chamber of Gen X.

Apocalypse, the Hellfire Club, the Hierarchy, as well as the similar timelines of Rachel Summers and Bishop link all of these characters. Maybe the Shadow King plays a part as well (see below).

The Hellfire Club (and probably the Hierarchy) work with anyone for profit and power. At least in Bishop's era, the Hierarchy and Hellfire Club are linked. Ahab worked with (or for) the Hierarchy of Rachel's era. Anthony Shaw, Fitzroy's father and the Black King of the Hellfire Club was a member of the Hierarchy of Bishop's era. The XSE Mini and/or the BISHOP: XSE Mini stated that the Hellfire Club worked with mutants and humans for profit during the Summers Rebellion (and probably the Gene War).

Both Rachel and Bishop's era had Hounds -- brainwashed mutants killing their own. The question is, what was the tech behind their bonding or brainwashing? As you state earlier, the Genoshan mutate suits are similar to the Hound suit like the one worn by Rachel and the mutates and Hounds both work the same. X-MEN PRIME introduced the idea of Sugar Man as being the mastermind behind the Genoshan Mutate "formula" -- an idea I have no problem with since as far as it's ever been stated, Sugar Man comes from AoA and basically used Apocalypse's tech from that era, which is probably the best tech in the Marvel Universe.

Perhaps the Hellfire Club and/or Hierarchy of Rachel's and Bishop's era worked with Apocalypse himself, or one of his agents like a disgused Mr. Sinister. Or maybe they worked with the Shadow King. But underneath it all, the technology used is definately derived from Apocalypse.

The 1989 intreptetation: I wonder what was the significance of the family transformed by the Shadow King in UXM ##267-268 wear Hound suits like Rachel's and being referred to in the text as "Hounds". Maybe this was deliberately done to link the idea of the Shadow King as having to do with the Hound process. Of course, this is before Bishop with his similar timeline came on the scene.

-- DN

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[Post 193]
Author : Marty P
Date : Jan 17, 2007 08:13 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.
Please check the last few pages, as that has been the subject quite often!

I can answer you this; No, grown-up baby Nathan was not always intended to be Cable.

[Marty P]

Part four:

[Post 194]
Author : Keoni
Date : Jan 20, 2007 04:00 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did Chris Claremont create Dr. Peter Corbeau?
He appeared in Ms Marvel, I think written by Mr Claremont. Any background information on the character (besides what is written about him under Comixfan's Character Bios)?

What's his connection to Prof. X? I find it strange that they know each other.

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[Post 195]
Author : david r
Date : Jan 20, 2007 04:29 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I believe Dr. Peter Corbeau first appeared in Uncanny X-Men #98. Charles and Peter are old friends, and Charles visited him in #98 to escape having a nervous breakdown.

Chris Claremont and Dave Cockrum created Peter Corbeau.

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[Post 196]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Jan 28, 2007 10:44 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Was Viper’s desire to become prince to the crimelords of Madripoor (cf. Wolverine #127) connected to Farouk’s base previously running out of there? Was something perhaps left behind by Farouk that Viper was desperate to get a hold of?

What was Farouk up to setting up base in a location he would have known was Logan’s old stomping ground?

Just what does Madripoor have to do with all of this? It was also the location where Strucker and the Hand began their alliance which led to the formation of Hydra, and where Natalia Romanova almost became their master assassin before Elektra.

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[Post 197]
Author : fishtaco
Date : Feb 5, 2007 01:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.His creators never intended to be Nathan. He was meant to be a guy from the far war-torn future who, given the environment he grew up in, is a brilliant strategist with a remarkable amount of resources with violent methods to achieve noble goals. He has been travelling in the present for while, so he has connections to many in the MU. New Mutants (1st Series) #93 indicated he knew Sunfire's father. He knew Moira. He knew Domino. There were tons of other hints. Cable's coolness didn't last very long. Editorial had its own ideas.

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[Post 198]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Feb 5, 2007 02:02 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

He was meant to be a guy from the far war-torn future who, given the environment he grew up in, is a brilliant strategist with a remarkable amount of resources with violent methods to achieve noble goals.

But he still is all that, except that he was born in this reality and went to the future when he was 1 or 2 years old.

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[Post 199]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Feb 8, 2007 07:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Regarding jrnewto's comments on Viper, how/why is Viper considered a "prince", when she's a woman?

Why is Yukio referred to as a "ronin", when she's a ninja, not a samurai? I thought that term only pertained to samurai.

-- DrNoh

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[Post 200]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 12, 2007 10:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Regarding jrnewto's comments on Viper, how/why is Viper considered a "prince", when she's a woman?

-- DrNoh
When you consider it was under Chris’s penmanship that Storm became White King (as opposed to White Queen) of the Hellfire Club, surely not so odd?!

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[Post 201]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Feb 15, 2007 08:54 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When you consider it was under Chris’s penmanship that Storm became White King (as opposed to White Queen) of the Hellfire Club, surely not so odd?!You're right, it shouldn't be strange, especially given the way Chris Claremont makes his female characters more powerful than the males. But at times in XXM, Viper was also called a "princess", so I didn't know what to make of it. I also don't see the point in Storm being a "White King" in the Hellfire Club rather than another "White Queen". The Hellfire Club already had two Black Queens at the same time when the Phoenix got admission to it's Inner Circle.

X-TREME X-MEN featured quite a few situations involving gender swapping and physical transformations, as well, especially involving males turning into females.

Examples:

One of Bishop's cross-time variants was a female in XXM #4.

Shaitan (a male) was transformed into Storm's clone in XXM #12.

Masque (formerly believed to be male) was seen in XXM #38 as looking like Marilyn Monroe. I'm aware that even the 1980's OHOTMU stated that Masque's true gender is unknown.

In XXM #36, Masato Koga, the referee of the Arena matches, reminded me of a feminized version of Chairman Kaga from Iron Chef.

Sometimes Rogue would transform (to a certain extent) whenever her many personalities took over.

Lifeguard was a shape-changer like Amanda Sefton was in UXM #254.

Callisto was transformed via Masque into having tentacles like Jean Grey did in UXM #262.

-- DN

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[Post 202]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Feb 15, 2007 09:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When you consider it was under Chris’s penmanship that Storm became White King (as opposed to White Queen) of the Hellfire Club, surely not so odd?!

Is just another way of CC saying "women don't need men for anything", in that case, they don't need men so much that they can even take away from them the titles that are male-exclusive.

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[Post 203]
Author : Soundwave
Date : Feb 15, 2007 09:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When you consider it was under Chris’s penmanship that Storm became White King (as opposed to White Queen) of the Hellfire Club, surely not so odd?!Is just another way of CC saying "women don't need men for anything", in that case, they don't need men so much that they can even take away from them the titles that are male-exclusive.Magneto was the White King. He and Storm shared the title at the beginning.

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[Post 204]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Feb 16, 2007 03:51 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Magneto was the White King. He and Storm shared the title at the beginning.

Doesn't disprove my point.

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[Post 205]
Author : Soundwave
Date : Feb 16, 2007 06:05 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Doesn't disprove my point.I don't see what it has to do with gender. Storm initially shared the White King position with Magneto because she was leader of the X-Men, and because she was the one who convinced him to take the position since he was afraid to revert to type.

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[Post 206]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 25, 2007 11:35 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When Chris was writing Spider-Woman, Viper claimed to be Jessica’s real mother, Merriem Drew (cf. #42-4). While this later got retconned to simply be a delusion of Viper’s (cf. Captain America #281-2), the resemblance between the two was uncanny, even fooling other HYDRA agents.

On an earlier occasion Logan explained how Viper got them both to safety after Seraph gave her life to protect him from Sabertooth.

I would posit that Chris intended this event to lead the pair to have a moment that would produce a child Wolverine would be ignorant of.

Merriem (Viper) then goes on to leave the child with Jonathan Drew, who weaves a story about Jessica’s mother dying when he discovers Merriem has joined HYDRA.

Chris then has Jessica and Lindsay McCabe move their practice to Madripoor as part of an investigation into discovering the truth behind Jessica’s parentage.

Had Chris remained on the title I suspect he would reveal that Jessica was the fruit of Viper and Logan’s union following the above event which initially brought them together (cf. Wolverine #126).

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[Post 207]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 25, 2007 11:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to Selene, I have it on good authority that Chrisc was planning to reveal her as a former wielder of the Phoenix Force, and that her motivation for going after Rachel would be eventually explained as sensing the “Power of the Force” within Rachel and wanting it back.

This makes me wonder if she was in possession of it at the time she had her run in with Kulan Gath lo those many millennia ago...

Of further interest is why Selene initially wanted Dani Moonstar as an heir (cf. New Mutants).

When she came to New York she also wanted to make Rachel her heir/protégé.

It doesn’t make much sense why Selene would want an heir when she is immortal.

Did Chris perhaps intend Dani to become the next wielder of the Phoenix Force, but changed his mind and had her become a Valkyrior instead?

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[Post 208]
Author : Nexus
Date : Feb 26, 2007 12:32 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to Selene, I have it on good authority that Chrisc was planning to reveal her as a former wielder of the Phoenix Force, and that her motivation for going after Rachel would be eventually explained as sensing the “Power of the Force” within Rachel and wanting it back.

That would have been all kinds of awesome. They could still do it actually. Especially now that Rachel's back. Maybe send an X-team into the past where she had the Phoenix Force. That could totally work, unless it's been specifically stated somewhere that Jean was the Force's first host on Earth.
We need more Selene stories.

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[Post 209]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 26, 2007 01:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I was thinking about how Warlock’s father, the Magus, referred to the Technarch’s god-equivalent as the “MAKER”.

You’ll recall Naze, Forge’s shaman mentor, explains how Forge is: the Maker.

Would Chris reveal the transmode virus as technology Forge had created that somehow managed to traverse space and time to Warlock’s home planet, where it eventually gained sentience?

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[Post 210]
Author : david r
Date : Feb 26, 2007 02:12 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did Chris perhaps intend Dani to become the next wielder of the Phoenix Force, but changed his mind and had her become a Valkyrior instead?

I agree, I think that was his original intent.

Maybe if we all pitched in and offered Chris Claremont $1000, he'll spill the beans on his former plans. Like how fans commission John Byrne to draw them personalized drawings.

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[Post 211]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 26, 2007 02:44 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Lila Cheney refers to Earth selling her (cf. New Mutants Annual #1), but it wasn’t until I heard about Tullamore Voge that I figured that he might have been involved.

In issue #29 she further alludes to having participated in bloodsports.

I suspect she managed to get off the world Earth sold her to by fighting her way to freedom as a gladiator.

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[Post 212]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 26, 2007 10:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regards to the contention that when Chris Claremont asked BWS to imply that someone, besides the Professor, was the mastermind behind the Weapon X Program, he intended the villain to be none other than Apocalypse, I suspect that this was a red herring.

Whilst Wolverine: Jungle Adventure (1990, by Walter Simonson) implies that Apocalypse gave Wolverine his adamantium skeleton, I wonder if Chris went along with this rumour in order to put us off his true intentions – he had thrown plenty of red herrings out in the past.

Despite Wolverine finding plans from Weapon X whilst fighting an Apocalypse robot in the Savage Land, this doesn’t mean the villain was necessarily Apocalypse.

To me the hint is the location, not the villain.

There’s only one other X-villain that had a base in the Savage Land, who was also a prominent character utilised by Chris… Magneto!

Magneto built himself a citadel there, where he conducted genetic experiments on the locals, mutating them into his slaves using his own life force and magnetic powers.

His citadel later collapsed in battle with the X-Men.

I would posit that Apocalypse built his lair in the Savage Land from out of the remains of Magneto’s citadel, and the Weapon X plans Wolverine found there were originally left behind by his lordship.

The next question then becomes: What was Magneto doing with plans from the Weapon X Program?

Not only was Magnus a master geneticist, he had previously been shown working for the CIA.

I would posit that he was secondered to the Weapon X Program by his CIA handler, Control, and went along with the request so he could determine whether the rumours of experimentation on his kind by the government were true!

Upon arriving at the Program, he discovered they required his unique talents of magnetic manipulation in order to bond the indestructible metal known as adamantium to Logan’s skeleton.

Knowing the process would kill Logan without his surgical-like electromagnetic precision, and knowing he was already on shaky ground with Control getting closer to discovering his work as a double-agent for the Israeli government, he agrees to intervene.

Whilst on loan, Magnus discovers the objective of Weapon X is to create a breed of Sentinels, part-man, part-metal, brainwashed and trained to hunt down and kill other mutants, effectively the first inklings of the Hound programme. This was the catalyst that plants the seeds to Magnus’s organising some sort of resistance movement to stop governments around the world misusing mutants.

This perhaps further explains why, on occasion, Wolverine acted so irrationally feral towards Magneto, particularly in X-Men #1, about the same time Logan began having flashbacks from the Project.

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[Post 213]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Feb 27, 2007 01:40 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to David R’s suggestion that the prize vied for by the Wild Boys was the adamantium from Wolverine’s skeleton, this could explain the actions of Fenris and Matsuo that were shown in Uncanny #268… nevertheless an obvious prelude to his eventual transformation into Master Assassin for the Hand.

If this was CC’s objective behind the so-called “Prize”, with his being numbered among the Wild Boys, why would CC introduce Cortez without having Fabian verbalise some cryptic taunt implying that Wolvie’s days were numbered when the pair faced off in X-Men #1?

However, perhaps this was in fact CC’s original purpose behind Cortez suborning Magneto to his side, i.e. with the intention of manipulating the master of magnetism to extract the adamantium from Wolverine’s skeleton, before Matsuo and Fenris beat him to the punch.

Recalling how many of Chris’s plots were strip-mined for use following his departure, I would posit that Magneto’s later ripping the adamantium from Wolverine’s body was another example of this. But I digress…

I’ve previously mentioned how the impervious nature of adamantium makes me immediately think of it as originally being forged in Asgard, particularly when recalling the theory of Baron Strucker being the classic villain behind Weapon X and the adamantium process, and his designating the combined might of his children as Fenris, after the wolf son of Loki who in Ragnarok shall kill Odin.

With the Shadow King’s plan to supplant the Hellfire Club membership with that of the deadlier breed of Wild Boys, along with my suggestion of his being tied to Those Who Sit Above in Shadow, were the Wild Boys promised immortality if they could retrieve the adamantium from Wolvie’s skeleton?

What purpose then could “Those Who Sit Above in Shadow” have had for Wolvie’s adamantium?

Despite CC’s later revelation of Matsuo’s bonding adamantium to Sabretooth’s skeleton, I doubt that this was what the hullabaloo was initially going to be about in relation to the so-called “prize”.

We know that the rings from Tolkien’s epic were forged from adamantine, and gifted to the kings of the various races of Middle-Earth. Could the adamantium bonded to Wolverine’s skeleton be likened perhaps to that used to forge Sauron’s ring, in that TWSAIS had poured their energy into the metal which they would secretly forge into a weapon for some sinister purpose?

What with elements of the Nazi hierarchy venerating the Aesir, I would posit that Strucker numbered among these and was perhaps in communion with beings from Norse myth.

In addition, with the Baron referring to his children Andrea and Andreas as Fenris, that being was undoubtedly Loki, perhaps the CLASSIC villain Chris intended as being behind the Weapon X programme.

During the Asgardian Wars it was revealed that Loki had previously incensed Those Who Sit Above in Shadow, but as to the details… perhaps Loki had stolen the metal and handed it over to Strucker through some deal?! You’ll recall in Norse myth Loki being known for stealing magical artefacts and donating them to supposed allies with the intention of creating strife and discord.

The alliance between the Nazis, Farouk and the Hellfire Club as shown in True Friends may have hinted at something far more sinister. That is, Strucker may have had the adamantium and their alliance was to seek out a candidate worthy enough to bond it to.

UXM #268 may be tied to this more than we realise. How?

We know from Marvel history the Red Skull ordered Strucker to travel to the Far East and form the terrorist organisation Hydra with the help of the Japanese secret society, the Hand. The Baron consequently formed an alliance with the Hand, who sought out young Natalia Romanova with the intention of making her their Master Assassin. But had the alliance been made with the Hand because they were the ones to hold the secret of bonding mystical metal to human bone? Was Strucker perhaps assisting the Hand to capture an individual with a bloodline of significance to make as their first candidate for this bonding process? Natalia was known to be a descendant of the Romanov royal family and a relation of Nicholas the 2nd of Russia. Perhaps this was also the secret purpose behind the bloodline the Nazis, Farouk and the Hellfire Club sought in True Friends?!

Or did Strucker head to Japan due to rumours about a gaijin there with a healing factor who sounded identical to the Canadian he and Geist had clashed with during True Friends. You’ll recall that this story revealed that Farouk’s encounter with Rachel Summers gave him the idea for his “hounds”. But I digress…

What with the idea of Strucker being the classic villain behind Weapon X and the adamantium process, had Farouk manipulated the Red Skull during this alliance to initiate setting up the beginnings of a “Hound” program, by manipulating him to seconder Strucker to the Far East to track down the mutant most likely to survive the adamantium bonding process (based on rumours that the Logan called Japan his second home)?

Was the plot involving the Hand hunting down young Natalia a red herring reconnaissance mission? That is, Strucker, finding out about the existing enmity between the Hand and Logan, convinces them to set up the plot to make young Natalia their master assassin expecting that it will bring Logan out of the woodwork so Strucker can gather further evidence of the runt’s healing factor in action. Strucker successfully gathers his research (and it is this far back that the idea of Wolverine being made master assassin of the Hand perhaps begins).

Strucker perhaps then sets his scientists the task of working alongside the Hand’s forgers to refine the process of bonding adamantium to human bone, but despite the Hand’s success with other mystical metals, their efforts bear no fruit with regard to adamantium.

Then recall my previously mentioning the plot of Strucker hunting down Gabrielle Haller as a smokescreen! What if, upon Farouk’s physical death, he sends out a psychic cry to Strucker that sets the Baron on a collision course with Charles and Magnus? Running into Gabrielle Haller conveniently provides him with the excuse he requires to keep Xavier and Magnus under surveillance without their realising it.

Foreseeing Charles meeting up with Magnus, Farouk orchestrates his own physical death, contacts Strucker to advise him if he follows Charles, Xavier will lead him to the solution for bonding adamantium to human bone.

What that solution would be, of course, is Magneto.

I would posit that Farouk here a) figures that if he sends the Nazis against Magnus, this would set the Jew upon the path of becoming the mutant terrorist Magneto – which it in fact did, since in the course of the fight, Magnus used his powers openly, became violent and agitated, and killed them against Charles’s wishes – and b) it would, to Farouk’s benefit, convince Magnus to become a mutant agent for the CIA to track down those Nazis that had bartered German scientists to the American OSS to escape war crimes prosecution and make themselves useful in questionable CIA operations. This would lead him to agreeing to seconderment to the Weapon X Program by his CIA handler, Control, so he can determine whether rumours of experimentation on mutants by the government were true.

Upon arriving at Project X, as abovementioned, Magnus discovers he is a crucial part of the experiment in that they require his unique talents of magnetic manipulation to bond the indestructible metal known as adamantium to Logan’s skeleton.

Knowing the process could kill the fellow mutant –and knowing he was already on shaky ground with Control getting closer to discovering his work as a double-agent for the Israeli government – Magnus agrees to use his surgical-like electromagnetic precision to ensure Logan survives the bonding process. Of note might be that the group of scientists Magnus assists are Advanced Idea Mechanics, infiltrating government programmes as part of Hydra’s plans of subversion.

Magnus discovers the purpose of this Program is to create a breed of Sentinels, part-man, part-metal, brainwashed and trained to hunt down and kill other mutants (effectively the first inklings of the Hound programme).

This becomes the catalyst that leads Magnus to begin attempting to organise some sort of resistance movement to stop governments around the world misusing mutants.

You can see the connection here has to be Wolverine: his haunt being Madripoor, Strucker and the Hand forming their alliance there (of all places), Farouk setting up shop there with the Gladiators, and Viper becoming its later crimelord.

It all must be tied to some game for the valuable item that is Wolverine’s adamantium, with:

>Strucker perhaps being handed the substance by Loki, who used the Nazis to hide it among the human population and create his usual strife,

>the Shadow King wanting to get it back, but also wanting to hide it from his Norse “Shadow” brethren, so stepping in to

>manipulate Strucker to hide it in a mutant that would be worthy of surviving the process,

>manipulating the Red Skull to get Strucker to form an alliance with the Hand what with his knowledge of their enmity with Logan,

>getting them to go after young Natalia so Logan doesn’t suspect that it is him they are in fact observing,

>manipulating Xavier into thinking he’d killed Farouk to then lead him to Haifa and Magnus,

>and Strucker to come into conflict with them to set about Magnus’s violent nature, which would then make him join the CIA so he can track down those Nazis getting hidden by the US government, eventually

>leading him to be secondered to the Weapon X Programme to bond adamantium to Logan, which would then perhaps evolve the adamantium due to Wolvie’s healing factor, and then

>manipulating the modern-day Hand and Fenris to go after Wolvie’s adamantium, and keeping the back-up plan of Cortez manipulating Magnus to then be on standby to remove the adamantium from Logan.

The answer now becomes why?

By coming into possession of this particular extract of adamantium the Shadow King might have been attempting to progress his position in the ranks of Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. That is, maybe the group’s hierarchy is based on the possession of the artefact, akin to Sauron’s possession of the One Ring. This Shadow group can perhaps be likened to an Asgardian version of the Hellfire Club with its Black and White Inner Circle factions.

Of further interest is Fabian Cortez. That is, with Magneto originally being manipulated to bond the adamantium to Logan, perhaps my theory of Cortez getting him to remove it was a plan being manipulated by whoever was behind the alliance of Matsuo and Fenris?!

Was this the “game” Mr. Sinister was referring to in UXM #239? That is, was young Nate manipulating Cortez? You’ll recall a connection being drawn between the pair in Magneto Rex, a series approved while Chris was editor of a number of X-titles.

Or maybe other members of “Those Who Sit Above in Shadow” who wanted to prevent the Shadow King from winning the game?!

Or perhaps it was Loki, the first prominent enemy of humanity in the MU, causing strife among the human race as part of a wider plan to get back at Thor and Odin.

The race of Giant Kings, I have previously associated with the Shadow King, possessed an innate ability to wield magic, just as the etins Loki stemmed from.

If it was indeed Loki who initiated the alliance shown in “X-Men: True Friends”, it might explain Baron Strucker’s naming his twins after the wolf son of Loki, Fenris.

Further ties to REH’s mythology is by way of Marvel’s gods of Asgard being in some way descendants of the blond arctic savages who drove the remaining Hyborian tribes out of the snow countries in the north, except for the ancient kingdom of Hyperborea. These golden-haired, blue-eyed barbarians divided into the red-haired Vanir of Vanaheim and the yellow-haired Aesir of Asgard. Nowhere else in the myths surrounding the Norse gods are the Aesir yellow-haired other than in Robert E. Howard’s Hyborian Era. Thor was always described as being red-haired, never blond. The only time Aesir were ever described as yellow-haired was in REH’s Hyborian era. But I digress…

Is Loki wishing to steal a place upon the council of “Those Who Sit Above in Shadow”? With their directing Asgardian cosmology, does Loki consider a position on this council will provide him with the power he has long sought to put Odin and Thor through eternal torment? This might finally explain the purpose behind Chris’s Asgardian Wars.

With the allegation that Loki is the father of Wade Wilson, later candidate of Weapon X, was this idea another of pilfered CC plots, just as Gamesmaster’s origin was taken from that originally intended for Mr. Sinister? That is, that Wolverine’s longevity and healing factor are a result of his being the offspring of Loki. The Norse god of mischief had once been called Logi, a name which referred to the brute side of man with his uncontrolled passions, a side that our Logan continually struggled to control.

Further clues perhaps lie in Jo Duffy’s tale from Wolverine #25, when Logan tells a young boy a story about a boy who “had been cast out by his people,” to be adopted by a pack of wolverines. Did Odin, the monarch of the otherdimensional realm of Asgard, realising that Fenris/Logan was potentially a danger to the gods of Asgard, banish him to Midgard, like he had done to Loki’s other son, Jormundgand? You’ll recall that when Jormundgand was born he was the size of a human infant, and it was not until his banishment to the depths of the oceans of Earth that he grew to incredible size.

We know from numerous stories that the Nazis had tapped the powers of the Norse gods, so it does not take much of a leap to suggest that Loki was called upon to aid their cause.

I would posit that Loki came to realise his son, Logan, to be active in numerous events at this time, but not wanting to alert the gods of Asgard to Logan’s whereabouts, instead manipulated numerous Nazis to begin seeding events that would lead to Logan’s eventual evolution into Fenris, the wolf-god. The adamantium bonding process would be one of many of the trials that would prepare Logan for his destiny of killing Odin, as Fenris.

You may think I’m reading too much into things, but I have found a Native American legend about Master Lox, the Wolverine, or Indian Devil, which relates how he was slain many times and as often rose from the dead.

Does this sound like a certain someone’s healing factor?

I would posit that Chris knew full well of this legend, and began utilising elements of it for Logan’s origin, including the healing factor. I would suggest that this intention went back as far as Wolverine’s healing factor became apparent in the X-titles – or the revelation of his name being Logan, or both.

The legend further reveals that Lox, like Loki, is father of the wolves. But even more interesting many Indians deny that he is really an animal at all, though he assumes the forms of certain animals – yet another trait of the Loki of Norse legend.

Lox is also referred to as the Mischief Maker, which brings him much nearer to Loki.

This might finally resolve a dangler with regard to Wolvie’s dream of an encounter with the entity known as Uncegila (cf. Wild Frontier). Since Logan, although long-lived, does not appear to have been born significantly before the dawn of the twentieth century, I would posit the pre-claw Wolverine shown as a member of the Blackfoot Indian tribes in the 1840’s was actually Loki incognito, that Loki was the first ‘Wolverine’, that Wolverine was not a codename but rather Logan’s rightful title as Loki’s son (despite his not yet knowing it).

This might also explain all those unresolved appearances of Wolverine throughout time that Logan has no immediate recollection of. That is, they were actually Loki. This is not so hard to believe when one considers the revelation that Fandral was Robin Hood.

Of further interest with this Asgardian connection is how the black-haired Loki’s enemy Thor is golden-haired, analogous to Logan’s deadliest enemy, Sabretooth, also being blond. I wonder if this was meant as a further clue?!

I’d personally have loved the idea of Logan being the true Fenris wolf.

What better way for Loki to hide his greatest weapon against Odin, than within the human population. Recall Odin had done the same with regard to Donald Blake.

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[Post 214]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Feb 28, 2007 10:02 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To jrnewto:

Originally posted by jrnewto

Lila Cheney refers to Earth selling her (cf. New Mutants Annual #1), but it wasn’t until I heard about Tullamore Voge that I figured that he might have been involved.

In issue #29 she further alludes to having participated in bloodsports.

I suspect she managed to get off the world Earth sold her to by fighting her way to freedom as a gladiator.I recently thought about this possible connection between Lila Chaney and Tullamore Voge. IMO, perhaps Chris Claremont was to deal with this right before the end of his first run with Rogue vs. Guido fighting in a gladitorial arena, under the Shadow King's control (re. UXM #278). Most of these ideas were later seen (and IMO recycled) with Storm as a gladiator vs. Guido (and others) in XXM #36-38. But the question is, who sold Lila Chaney and why??


Originally posted by jrnewto

With regards to the contention that when Chris Claremont asked BWS to imply that someone, besides the Professor, was the mastermind behind the Weapon X Program, he intended the villain to be none other than Apocalypse, I suspect that this was a red herring.This is the first time I've ever read anywhere that Chris Claremont contacted Barry Windsor Smith regarding the Weapon X storyline at all. I'm not sure why Professor X couldn't play a part in it, since XXM Annual #1 stated that the Shadow King had manipulated Xavier in the past.


Originally posted by jrnewto

Whilst on loan, Magnus discovers the objective of Weapon X is to create a breed of Sentinels, part-man, part-metal, brainwashed and trained to hunt down and kill other mutants, effectively the first inklings of the Hound programme. This was the catalyst that plants the seeds to Magnus’s organising some sort of resistance movement to stop governments around the world misusing mutants.This idea also sounds like Operation: Zero Tolerance.


1. In regards to your statement about villians in the Savage Land, although not a major X-Villian, the High Evolutionary is also there and has experience with genetics.

2a. Why would the Shadow King be involved in such a complex plot involving Adamantium when he has a vunerability to metal, as you've stated?

2b. How much did the Wildboys know of the Shadow King? If they knew of his vunerability to metal and Adamantium was indeed their ultimate prize, would they then try and kill him??

3. In light of what you state about Loki and his involvment with the X-Men, how and where would Psylocke feature in any of this? Especially since she not only got transformed by the Hand, (IMO) she was affected the most permanently out of all the characters manipulated in the Acts of Vengence, a plan put into action by Loki himself.

4. Is Dani Moonstar in fact, immortal since she is a Valkyrie? In light of your statements about Selene, she was to bestow immortality on the winner of the Upstarts game. I'm not sure how Selene would do this, but perhaps she would have bestowed immortality upon Dani Moonstar or whoever she chose as a protégé.

5. Was the idea of Charles Xavier initially not knowing his son Legion existed, in fact not entirely the truth? If not, what was the point in not bringing David to the mansion much sooner so he could get specialized teaching? A friend of mine used to state how powerful Legion could be if he in fact used his powers to their potential and was mentally sane, something I've never seen featured.

-- Dr.Noh

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[Post 215]
Author : Keoni
Date : Feb 28, 2007 10:26 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I recently thought about this possible connection between Lila Chaney and Tullamore Voge. IMO, perhaps Chris Claremont was to deal with this right before the end of his first run with Rogue vs. Guido fighting in a gladitorial arena, under the Shadow King's control (re. UXM #278). Most of these ideas were later seen (and IMO recycled) with Storm as a gladiator vs. Guido (and others) in XXM #36-38. But the question is, who sold Lila Chaney and why??
-- Dr.Noh
After Astra's intorduction, I had always thought that her powers and appearance were way too similar to Lila Cheney's. To me, there seems to be a connection, mother and daughter?

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[Post 216]
Author : Chris Day
Date : Mar 1, 2007 03:39 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I’d personally have loved the idea of Logan being the true Fenris wolf.

What better way for Loki to hide his greatest weapon against Odin, than within the human population. Recall Odin had done the same with regard to Donald Blake.

this is brilliant! - I would love to see this...

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[Post 217]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 1, 2007 05:46 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I would posit that Loki came to realise his son, Logan, to be active in numerous events at this time, but not wanting to alert the gods of Asgard to Logan’s whereabouts, instead manipulated numerous Nazis to begin seeding events that would lead to Logan’s eventual evolution into Fenris, the wolf-god. The adamantium bonding process would be one of many of the trials that would prepare Logan for his destiny of killing Odin, as Fenris.

You may think I’m reading too much into things, but I have found a Native American legend about Master Lox, the Wolverine, or Indian Devil, which relates how he was slain many times and as often rose from the dead.

Does this sound like a certain someone’s healing factor?

I would posit that Chris knew full well of this legend, and began utilising elements of it for Logan’s origin, including the healing factor. I would suggest that this intention went back as far as Wolverine’s healing factor became apparent in the X-titles – or the revelation of his name being Logan, or both.

The legend further reveals that Lox, like Loki, is father of the wolves. But even more interesting many Indians deny that he is really an animal at all, though he assumes the forms of certain animals – yet another trait of the Loki of Norse legend.

Lox is also referred to as the Mischief Maker, which brings him much nearer to Loki.

This might finally resolve a dangler with regard to Wolvie’s dream of an encounter with the entity known as Uncegila (cf. Wild Frontier). Since Logan, although long-lived, does not appear to have been born significantly before the dawn of the twentieth century, I would posit the pre-claw Wolverine shown as a member of the Blackfoot Indian tribes in the 1840’s was actually Loki incognito, that Loki was the first ‘Wolverine’, that Wolverine was not a codename but rather Logan’s rightful title as Loki’s son (despite his not yet knowing it).

This might also explain all those unresolved appearances of Wolverine throughout time that Logan has no immediate recollection of. That is, they were actually Loki. This is not so hard to believe when one considers the revelation that Fandral was Robin Hood.

Of further interest with this Asgardian connection is how the black-haired Loki’s enemy Thor is golden-haired, analogous to Logan’s deadliest enemy, Sabretooth, also being blond. I wonder if this was meant as a further clue?!

I’d personally have loved the idea of Logan being the true Fenris wolf.

What better way for Loki to hide his greatest weapon against Odin, than within the human population. Recall Odin had done the same with regard to Donald Blake.

Interesting theory!

But, Len Wein has already stated officially that when he first created Wolverine he was supposed to be a real wolverine that becomes a mutant. Its mutant power is to become a man (Logan).

This idea was shot down by Marvel editors and Wolverine became who he was when he was introduced in The Incredible Hulk and then GSXM #1.

The original origin of Logan does fit into your theory, though. But, Len Wein would have to be consulted to see if that was his intent all along about making Logan Loki's son. Or, maybe CC got the idea from Wein and ran with it.

Mystique is a mutant. Her power is to change her appearance, and as we would have learned, she could change her sexuality. Claremont envisioned her being both male and female, at her own choosing. Since she is a mutant, this could be possible.

This is a quote from Chris Claremont about Mystique "Mystique is blue-skinned and female. However, being a full-spectrum metamorph, gender is a matter of choice."

Mystique is a true metamorph. That makes her basically asexual in nature. Being a man is just as comfortable and natural to her as being a woman.

19) Chris Claremont told our own Luke Heller at a convention that he had planned the Destiny's Diaries plot back in 1989! It would have happened in the early 1990s and been the fall-out of Destiny's death in Uncanny X-Men #255.

Hey! I'm famous.

This is true. CC did indeed tell me this during WWE Philly 2003.

Also, Chris had plans to turn Magneto back into a "bad guy". His magnetic powers were causing negative effects on his brain. There was no mind-control being done by Charles Xavier.

Let's not forget that Claremont changes his mind in between A LOT.

Magneto becoming a "bad guy" for good was confirmed to me by Aaron Lopresti (artist on Excalibur at the time) when I spoke with him at WWLA 2006.

What David R stated was exactly what Lopresti told me that day. And, to confirm what Marty P stated: Aaron Lopresti also told me that CC is infamous for changing his mind at the last possible instant because he gets a better idea or wants to change something he already established to work a better storyline out of a new idea he comes up with.

I wish they would reprint the Storm and Illyana: Magik limited series... I would love to read it...

Excellent mini! I hope you finally got the chance to read it.

I question Logan's origin being revealed in Uncanny X-Men #301-304. Claremont has flat-out stated numerous times he feels Wolverine's mysterious past should remain mysterious. Revealing it all would greatly dilute the popularity and mystique of Wolverine, in CC's eyes. He was against the Paul Jenkins' Origins mini but had little power to stop it.

Actually, even Joey Q was against Wolverine's origin being done. BUT, the problem came up because of the movie: X2.

Since Marvel sold the rights to "Hollywood" that means they could have done anything with Wolverine that they wanted because Wolverine currently did not have an origin. Hence, "Hollywood" could give him one. Marvel and Joey Q had to work fast to come up with a plausible and decent origin for Logan otherwise "Hollywood" would do it for them.

And, knowing how bad "Hollywood" films have been and the lack of creativity in them the past couple decades it is quite possible that Wolverine would now be sporting the origin of being born of the mating of a man and a female wolverine.

Wolverine: Origin was a necessary evil to prevent his character from being soiled by the hacks that write for "Hollywood."

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.

Well, CC has already stated somewhere here over the past couple years that his original plan was to have Scott and Maddie's child (Nathan) grow up happy and healthy in Alaska with his mommy and daddy. All 3 were to live the storybook "Happily Ever After" ending.

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[Post 218]
Author : Stéphane Garrelie
Date : Mar 2, 2007 03:03 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Something i posted in the wrong thread some time ago: Byrne talking about the creation of Arcade. ("90% Chris'.")
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...TID=16720&PN=1

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[Post 219]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 2, 2007 03:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Something i posted in the wrong thread some time ago: Byrne talking about the creation of Arcade. ("90% Chris'.")
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...TID=16720&PN=1

Interesting. And i always felt like Arcade was somewhat like Alex de Large, i can see now it's not a coincidence.

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[Post 220]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 2, 2007 04:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Something i posted in the wrong thread some time ago: Byrne talking about the creation of Arcade. ("90% Chris'.")
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...TID=16720&PN=1

Interesting, thanks Stephane. I always rather liked Arcade and thought he was a lot of fun. Sure he was silly, but there was always a hint of menace hidden in his eyes.

On a personal note, I realize more and more how there are no comic books I'm really passionate about anymore. And no characters that I feel a strong emotional attachment to. The X-Men were my obsession for a long time, but it has finally receded into continual disappointment with so many problems with the X-books. These problems have been discussed at length here and elsewhere.

But when I think if Chris Claremont had 100% complete control of the X-Men, and their world, then that passion returns. I remember how exciting, almost intoxicating, I found the X-Men under Claremont, especially during the late 80s/early 90s. I yearn for that feeling again, and wished a lot during his 1990 Wilderness Years that Chris would return, and I envisioned all would be right again. And once he did return, it just hasn't worked out. There were INDEED moments where I felt real passion for the X-Men again, but I think the fact so many stories were begun, and then shot down (Neo, Destiny's Diaries, X*S*E, Hellfire Club arc, Excalibur) and so on. His return has not been the "Biggest Event in Comics Ever" that I thought it would be. I feel it's because Claremont does NOT have 100% control, and his tales are completely watered down or nixed.

I've tried other writers, ALL of them, and none capture that illusive *something* that Chris Claremont brings to the X-Men. Most do not even come close. It's like CC is writing the true history of them, and these others are just writing side stories. It feels as if they like the X-Men, but really have nothing to say. But when I think if somehow Claremont could regain his 70s/80s power over the X-World, it would be GREAT again. If it worked for seventeen years, I believe it could definitely work again. I wish in someway, it could.

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[Post 221]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Mar 5, 2007 09:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This is the first time I've ever read anywhere that Chris Claremont contacted Barry Windsor Smith regarding the Weapon X storyline at all. I'm not sure why Professor X couldn't play a part in it, since XXM Annual #1 stated that the Shadow King had manipulated Xavier in the past.

Barry has mentioned it in numerous interviews. I wasn’t referring to Professor X, by the way. I was referring to the Professor shown in BWS’s Weapon X storyline.

My main suggestion was that it wasn’t Apocalypse behind the Weapon X programme, as BWS suggested, but rather he built his Savage Land lair out of the remains of Magneto’s citadel, and the plans were his, because he’d been involved in the bonding of adamantium to Logan’s skeleton.

this is brilliant! - I would love to see this...

Thanks. It took a bit of mentallo flexing to come up with that one. Welcome back, by the way!

But, Len Wein has already stated officially that when he first created Wolverine he was supposed to be a real wolverine that becomes a mutant. Its mutant power is to become a man (Logan).

Welcome back. It’s been a while since you’ve darkened cfan’s doormats;-)

You’ve stated correctly that Len Wein was going to reveal Wolverine as a real wolverine artificially evolved by the High Evolutionary, but this idea was abandoned by Chris (oddly enough, Roger Stern later picked it up for the origin of the previous White Tiger).

What I was suggesting with that post is that Chris might have intended Wolverine to be the offspring of Loki, not Len Wein.

On a personal note, I realize more and more how there are no comic books I'm really passionate about anymore. And no characters that I feel a strong emotional attachment to. The X-Men were my obsession for a long time, but it has finally receded into continual disappointment with so many problems with the X-books. These problems have been discussed at length here and elsewhere.

[Marty P]

Part five:

[Post 222]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 6, 2007 04:12 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Welcome back. It’s been a while since you’ve darkened cfan’s doormats. ;-)

You’ve stated correctly that Len Wein was going to reveal Wolverine as a real wolverine artificially evolved by the High Evolutionary, but this idea was abandoned by Chris (oddly enough, Roger Stern later picked it up for the origin of the previous White Tiger).

What I was suggesting with that post is that Chris might have intended Wolverine to be the offspring of Loki, not Len Wein.

It's good to be back. Thank you!

It is quite possible that CC could have planned that. Mr. Clarmemont loves to pay homage to many things from the past:

The Avengers TV Series
Conan and the Dark Gods eras
Norse Mythology
etc.

Making Loki involved with Wolverine's birth wouldn't be that far of a stretch and very believable.

BTW:

I never got to meet the Simonsons at any of the Cons I went to last year to ask them your questions. I carried your questions with me to every one, though. Maybe this year's Cons I will see them for you.

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[Post 223]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Mar 6, 2007 09:54 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

It's good to be back. Thank you! I never got to meet the Simonsons at any of the Cons I went to last year to ask them your questions. I carried your questions with me to every one, though. Maybe this year's Cons I will see them for you.

I should be the one thanking you. Cheers for your efforts so far.

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[Post 224]
Author : Keoni
Date : Mar 7, 2007 05:50 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Could Chthon have been doing to Wanda, what Belasco was doing to Illyanna? Using them as a means (maybe even meant to be used in conjunction with each other) to bring the dark gods to earth.

Any other magic users maybe manipulated in this way? Jennifer Kale? Was Amanda Sefton influenced at any point?

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[Post 225]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Mar 7, 2007 06:29 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What were Chris Claremont's further plans for Psylocke just before his first run ended? Psylocke's psionic dagger seemed a much different weapon when first debuted -- it nearly appeared that Betsy permanently bonded with Wolverine when she first used it. Her psionic dagger reminded me of Rogue's power, when Rogue uses her ability to the point that her victim passes out and their personality permanently bonds with hers. Nowadays, this affect of Betsy's psionic dagger is ignored.

Was it ever stated how or if this previous long-term mental bond Betsy had with Logan would have played into the Dark Wolverine plotline? What role(s) would Psylocke have played in that story?

Also: what was the explanation given (if any), for Cyclops' and Colleen Wing's breakup?

-- DN

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[Post 226]
Author : Keoni
Date : Mar 7, 2007 06:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What were Chris Claremont's further plans for Psylocke just before his first run ended? Psylocke's psionic dagger seemed a much different weapon when first debuted -- it nearly appeared that Betsy permanently bonded with Wolverine when she first used it. Her psionic dagger reminded me of Rogue's power, when Rogue uses her ability to the point that her victim passes out and their personality permanently bonds with hers. Nowadays, this affect of Betsy's psionic dagger is ignored.

Was it ever stated how or if this previous long-term mental bond Betsy had with Logan would have played into the Dark Wolverine plotline? What role(s) would Psylocke have played in that story?

Also: what was the explanation given (if any), for Cyclops' and Colleen Wing's breakup?

-- DN
CC introduced the psionic dagger as a weapon first used by one of Legion's multiple personalities. That idea must have evolved into the psi-knife used by Psylocke. I just read the New Mutants first appearance of Legion issues, last night. Legion would have been so interesting in that book as a member, lots of cool potential and the art was holy freakin' amazing.

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[Post 227]
Author : Chris Day
Date : Mar 7, 2007 10:36 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Also: what was the explanation given (if any), for Cyclops' and Colleen Wing's breakup?


they dated??? - when was this?

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[Post 228]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Mar 8, 2007 12:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotli...Auto=66&page=4

That page should answer the question. Colleen was freed in XM v.1, #124. Jean came back the next issue (Muir Island). After the battle with Proteus/Mutant X, Scott and Jean had a talk (#129). Jean knew he'd dated Colleen and Scott assured her that Colleen was just a friend.

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[Post 229]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 8, 2007 04:40 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Also: what was the explanation given (if any), for Cyclops' and Colleen Wing's breakup?


The explanation was that Jean was alive, which Scott was not aware when he begun to date Colleen. When he found out, he broke up with her.

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[Post 230]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 8, 2007 03:54 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Considering good old Scott is madly in love with Jean he sure does jump around from girl to girl as soon as Jean "dies:"

Ali Forrester
Colleen Wing
Maddie Pryor
Emma Frost

Maybe it's just me, but when I unconditionally love someone the last thing I want to do is date someone else if the love of my life dies and/or leaves me.

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[Post 231]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 8, 2007 08:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Considering good old Scott is madly in love with Jean he sure does jump around from girl to girl as soon as Jean "dies:"

Ali Forrester
Colleen Wing
Maddie Pryor
Emma Frost

Maybe it's just me, but when I unconditionally love someone the last thing I want to do is date someone else if the love of my life dies and/or leaves me.

That doesn't mean Scott didn't love Jean. He's the guy that married a clone of her, there is no proof of love bigger than that Maybe, like he is an orphan, he's just, consciously or not, afraid of being alone and that's why he gets into relationships so quickly. In Colleen and Lee's case, they were the ones all over him from the start and, in the later's case, they were more friends than anything else, and with Colleen he was only at what might, or might not, be the beginning of something, so there were no deep feelings involved, showing that he was still feeling sorry and perhaps afraid of getting into a serious relationship. With Maddie, quite some time had passed ever since Jean had died, so it doesn't count as jumping into a new relationship shortly after she died. And with Emma was something else entirely which we already discussed too much here, no need to go over it again.

And people react in different ways to the loss of someone they love. Some get depressed, others get drunk, violent, jump into new relationships or just go having fun because they either trying to forget or just because life is short, etc. To expect that completely different people have exactly the same reactions doesn't make much sense.

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[Post 232]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Mar 8, 2007 08:55 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha man, you were doing fine up until your last sentence. "To expect that completely different people have exactly the same reactions doesn't make much sense." is rude because you're implying that Luke was doing something that didn't make much sense.

A safe and polite way to have expressed it would have been "Different people tend to differ in their reactions to the same type of situation."

Also, Scott isn't an orphan because his father is still living. You could have written that Scott grew up believing he was an orphan, though.

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[Post 233]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 8, 2007 09:03 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha man, you were doing fine up until your last sentence. "To expect that completely different people have exactly the same reactions doesn't make much sense." is rude because you're implying that Luke was doing something that didn't make much sense.

I don't think my post is offensive (and i wouldn't feel offended), but you're the mod.


Also, Scott isn't an orphan because his father is still living. You could have written that Scott grew up believing he was an orphan, though.

Oh, sure, that's what i meant.

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[Post 234]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 8, 2007 09:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha man, you were doing fine up until your last sentence. "To expect that completely different people have exactly the same reactions doesn't make much sense." is rude because you're implying that Luke was doing something that didn't make much sense.

A safe and polite way to have expressed it would have been "Different people tend to differ in their reactions to the same type of situation."

I don't think my post is offensive (and i wouldn't feel offended), but you're the mod.

It's all good. I'm pretty hard to offend and that didn't even come close. Especially considering he's right about relationships and how they affect different people in different ways.

My post was just basically stating that Scott does tend to jump around a lot with women. Alpha's comment about Scott believing himself to be an orphan and having possible feelings of abandonment is a very good possibility of why Scott goes from one woman to another. It makes a lot of sense.

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[Post 235]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 8, 2007 11:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

It's all good. I'm pretty hard to offend and that didn't even come close. Especially considering he's right about relationships and how they affect different people in different ways.

I'm glad you didn't feel offended, it wasn't my intention at all



My post was just basically stating that Scott does tend to jump around a lot with women. Alpha's comment about Scott believing himself to be an orphan and having possible feelings of abandonment is a very good possibility of why Scott goes from one woman to another. It makes a lot of sense.

Yep. And, like i said, if you think about it, when he jumped quickly into relationships with other women after Jean died, it was usually to not very meaningful ones, so he was still mourning Jean and had not completely moved on.

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[Post 236]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 9, 2007 04:21 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I'm glad you didn't feel offended, it wasn't my intention at all




Yep. And, like i said, if you think about it, when he jumped quickly into relationships with other women after Jean died, it was usually to not very meaningful ones, so he was still mourning Jean and had not completely moved on.

Still didn't make it right though:

Jean's dead! Oh no!!!!

Oh, wait... here's another woman that I can be with temporarily until Jean comes back. She will comfort my bruised heart. But, I'll dump her like yesterday's trash when my sweet Jeanie comes back.

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[Post 237]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Mar 12, 2007 10:58 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I’d personally have loved the idea of Logan being the true Fenris wolf.

In Wolverine (v1) #1, Logan notes that he knows his father and that’s as far back as he can trace his lineage.

As for his mother… in conversation with Alex Summers, during Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown #1, Logan readily acknowledges that he doesn’t know who his mother was.

According to legend, Loki had previously given birth to monstrous offspring – including Fenris – when he had eaten the heart of an evil witch burned by the Asgardians, which had consequently impregnated him.

Of further interest, considering Logan’s obsession with previous possessor of the Phoenix Force, Jean Grey, is the fact that this evil witch, Gullveig, was stabbed and burnt three times, but arose from the flames each time.

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[Post 238]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Mar 13, 2007 12:44 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

lol @ Loki giving birth. Why doesnt anyone who fights him taunt him with that? That would be awesome.

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[Post 239]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 13, 2007 05:42 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

lol @ Loki giving birth. Why doesnt anyone who fights him taunt him with that? That would be awesome.

LMAO! Seriously, how come Thor have as a serious opponent a guy like that?

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[Post 240]
Author : DungeonMasterJim
Date : Mar 13, 2007 01:35 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Thor had to dress up as a bride - as Freya, actually - so he could get his hammer back in one myth. He was almost kissed by his soon to be husband a giant king!

Oh, those crazy Norse!


DM Jim

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[Post 241]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Mar 13, 2007 01:49 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And it was because of Loki that he lost his hammer in the first place!

Those Norse really know how to have a good time


I really really like the idea of Wolverine as the Fenris wolf and Loki as his father...or mother...

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[Post 242]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Mar 14, 2007 03:24 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Great now I cant come to this thread without laughing til I snort over Loki giving birth and Thor being into drag... Loki = Laughingstock of Valhalla and I love it.

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[Post 243]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Mar 14, 2007 10:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

CC introduced the psionic dagger as a weapon first used by one of Legion's multiple personalities. That idea must have evolved into the psi-knife used by Psylocke. I just read the New Mutants first appearance of Legion issues, last night. Legion would have been so interesting in that book as a member, lots of cool potential and the art was holy freakin' amazing.

Wow, I didn't recall Legion having a psionic knife, too! With the level of powers Legion had, I wonder how/why Xavier never knew of him until Legion was in his teenage years. I wonder if Legion's psionic knife worked like Psylocke's.

As for Colleen Wing just being Cyclops's "friend" -- I was told that she had a key to his apartment. And this was back in the early 1980's, so I thought that meant that Colleen and Cyclops were quite intimate.

-- DN

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[Post 244]
Author : Marty P
Date : Mar 14, 2007 10:49 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

As for Colleen Wing just being Cyclops's "friend" -- I was told that she had a key to his apartment. And this was back in the early 1980's, so I thought that meant that Colleen and Cyclops were quite intimate.

-- DN

IIRC, Colleen gave Scott a key, but as far as I remember he didn't visit her after that. IIRC, Scott met Lee Forester shortly after that....

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[Post 245]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 14, 2007 11:10 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

IIRC, Colleen gave Scott a key, but as far as I remember he didn't visit her after that. IIRC, Scott met Lee Forester shortly after that....

No, Scott met Lee only after Jean died. He was dating Colleen until he found Jean again while fighting Proteus.

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[Post 246]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Mar 17, 2007 02:38 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I once heard that Claremont had plans for Lee Forester and Scott.I heard that he had plans for them to become a couple,and this would be the event that made Cyclops retire from the X-Men.It was a method of saying that people grow up,and you cant do certain things forever.I may have heard this from this or another forum..im not sure...

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[Post 247]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 17, 2007 05:13 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I once heard that Claremont had plans for Lee Forester and Scott.I heard that he had plans for them to become a couple,and this would be the event that made Cyclops retire from the X-Men.It was a method of saying that people grow up,and you cant do certain things forever.I may have heard this from this or another forum..im not sure...

Like it was discussed often here or in the X-couples forum, Claremont ended up doing it with Maddie, and (not unanymous, but it's obvious, just think about it) it was just an excuse for him to get rid of Cyclops so Storm could be the leader, since he would make his pet characters like Storm or Psylocke "growing up" and leaving the X-men for never to return. But i would prefer if he had married Scott with Lee or Colleen rather than Maddie, would make things much easier and would have not messed up the character for decades.

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[Post 248]
Author : Marty P
Date : Mar 17, 2007 11:52 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Like it was discussed often here or in the X-couples forum, Claremont ended up doing it with Maddie, and (not unanymous, but it's obvious, just think about it) it was just an excuse for him to get rid of Cyclops so Storm could be the leader, since he would make his pet characters like Storm or Psylocke "growing up" and leaving the X-men for never to return. But i would prefer if he had married Scott with Lee or Colleen rather than Maddie, would make things much easier and would have not messed up the character for decades.
What you said just doesn't make sense at all when you think about what CC was doing with Uncanny at that time.
Jean was dead, for real.
Personally I loved the idea of Scott having his own family away from the X-men, it showed that the characters actually grew older and moved on.

Heh, Psylocke wasn't even a member back then.


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[Post 249]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 17, 2007 06:47 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What you said just doesn't make sense at all when you think about what CC was doing with Uncanny at that time.
Jean was dead, for real.

And what was CC doing at the time? See what was happening with Storm around issues #168-175, Claremont transformed her into his prototype of the "strong lesbian warrior woman who needs men for nothing" It makes ALL the sense in the world.


Personally I loved the idea of Scott having his own family away from the X-men, it showed that the characters actually grew older and moved on.

I don't; characters were not created to be in Limbo, specially being married to clones. And like i said, Claremont would rather die before doing that to Storm, Kitty, Psylocke, etc, so the "growing up" thing was just an excuse to get rid of characters he did not wanted to use.


Heh, Psylocke wasn't even a member back then.


Oh, really? She wasn't? Are you sure? If so, who was the bald guy on the wheel chair?

It's irrelevant if Psylocke was a X-woman or not, my point is the same; she would never "move on" from the X-men to start a family, specially getting married with someone who looked exactly like her dead first love 5 issues after their first date.

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[Post 250]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Mar 17, 2007 09:31 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha Man, your comments about Mr. Claremont are borderline insulting. Please be more polite.

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[Post 251]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 17, 2007 10:15 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I'm discussing his writing and his old plans for the X-men. No one would complain if i said the exact same things about Chuck Austen, and most of us here said worse.

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[Post 252]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Mar 17, 2007 11:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, I would. In fact, I once gave a fan the 7 points for flaming for bashing Mr. Austen's character. His writing is fair game.

These are the comments I mean:

"And like i said, Claremont would rather die before doing that to Storm, Kitty, Psylocke, etc," and

"Claremont transformed her into his prototype of the "strong lesbian warrior woman who needs men for nothing"

Again, be civil.

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[Post 253]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 18, 2007 12:21 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, I would. In fact, I once gave a fan the 7 points for flaming for bashing Mr. Austen's

What? You should have given him a medal!

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[Post 254]
Author : Marty P
Date : Mar 18, 2007 01:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha Man, you don't like CC's writing, and that's fine, but then why post in a thread like this?

And what was CC doing at the time? See what was happening with Storm around issues #168-175, Claremont transformed her into his prototype of the "strong lesbian warrior woman who needs men for nothing" It makes ALL the sense in the world.
Back then that was unique.

I don't; characters were not created to be in Limbo, specially being married to clones. And like i said, Claremont would rather die before doing that to Storm, Kitty, Psylocke, etc, so the "growing up" thing was just an excuse to get rid of characters he did not wanted to use.
And like I said, Jean was still really dead then. Maddie was no clone.
Did CC want to get rid of Cyclops? Probably. So what?? Don't ALL writers do that??
These days characters just disappear between one issue and the next without much explanation. At least CC gave Cyclops a reason, and a logical exit at that time.

It's irrelevant if Psylocke was a X-woman or not, my point is the same; she would never "move on" from the X-men to start a family, specially getting married with someone who looked exactly like her dead first love 5 issues after their first date.
And my point is the same too; those stories happened a VERY long time ago, so they have to be seen in a different light, without the knowledge of what we know happened after those issues.

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[Post 255]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 18, 2007 02:14 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Alpha Man, you don't like CC's writing, and that's fine, but then why post in a thread like this?

CC's first run in Uncanny is perhaps my favorite of any comics. Is just that the whole marrying a clone thing so he could get rid of the character is to me for that run what Xorneto is to Morrison's. I think that explains itself, doesn't it?

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[Post 256]
Author : Greg Reeves
Date : Mar 18, 2007 02:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

CC's first run in Uncanny is perhaps my favorite of any comics. Is just that the whole marrying a clone thing so he could get rid of the character is to me for that run what Xorneto is to Morrison's. I think that explains itself, doesn't it?
She wasn't a clone originally though. That's sorta important. Claremont had her as just a woman who looked like Jean, and that was all there was.

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[Post 257]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 18, 2007 02:29 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

She wasn't a clone originally though. That's sorta important. Claremont had her as just a woman who looked like Jean, and that was all there was.

I know, but doesn't make the story any better, or changes it significantly, just explains why she looked so much like Jean.

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[Post 258]
Author : Lord Morbid
Date : Mar 18, 2007 11:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I don't understand why Claremont had all these signs insinuating a connection between Maddie and Jean, without having intended for there to be a connection. Not only does she look exactly like her, but she falls for Scott wuickly enough, was the only survivor of a fiery plane crash the same day Jean died on the moon, and even Storm saw some Phoenixy portent in Japan before meeting her.

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[Post 259]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Mar 18, 2007 11:21 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Wasn’t it stated in the story that the Genegineer and co deliberately mutated Jenny's powers into super-strength, to fill a need in Genosha? They needed more mutants with strength than what she naturally had, so they altered her.

I remember. This was obviously meant as part of Chris’s progressing the concept of ‘mutant’ as ‘commodity’. The idea of mutants being adapted to fit the means of production is a most interesting application of the mutant concept, and I would love to have seen Chris take this further, and have no doubt that he would have if he’d gotten to write his ‘Mutant Wars’ saga, instead of the ‘pale shadow’ X-Tinction Agenda.

Or was Chris intending something else entirely with her. That is, when she fought back against the telepath whilst on the table being processed in UXM #237, was her mutant ability actually utilising those of mutants nearby. Then, when she later demonstrates super strength, is it because she is utilising the power of Punchout of the Genoshan Press Gang?

Did Chris intend to utilise Jenny, as opposed to Lorna Dane, in his Shadow King epic, with her perhaps being his nexus?

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[Post 260]
Author : Reign of the Supermen
Date : Mar 19, 2007 12:45 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I don't understand why Claremont had all these signs insinuating a connection between Maddie and Jean, without having intended for there to be a connection. Not only does she look exactly like her, but she falls for Scott wuickly enough, was the only survivor of a fiery plane crash the same day Jean died on the moon, and even Storm saw some Phoenixy portent in Japan before meeting her.


I've bought the back issues from that time and I agree. I think that Madelynne Pryor was a way around the editors of the time. Using Mastermind and having everyone remark about how much Maddie looked like Jean read to me as a "wink,wink, nudge, nudge" type thing to the readers.

Scott and Jean were getting their happy ending together. That way Jean wouldn't be responsible for the deaths of 5 billion D'Bari because she couldn't remember it, plus Dark Phoenix was crazy when it happened. Since she and Scott were soul mates, Jean's soul was still there and she was reborn so off into the sunset they went.

Consider this:

1)It's downright odd that a guy would marry a woman who looked like his dead lover. Scott was intelligent and would know his feelings might be attached to Maddie's looking like Jean. Then there's the fact that everyone kept remarking on Maddie's resemblence to Jean, Maddie even sees a picture of Jean yet she shruggs it off but any normal person would head for the hills and question the nature of their relationship.

She certainly wouldn't marry the guy so quickly on the off chance he was a serial killer and she was his "type" even if she'd fallen for him. Even when Scott says at Jean's grave that he's glad Maddie isn't her it doesn't change anything, Jean Grey was gone for all intents and purposes since she couldn't remember who she was.

2)In Inferno we learn that the clone Maddie Pryor actually got a piece of the "essence" of Jean Grey, that Jean rejected when the Phoenix tried to return it to her. The clone Maddie only came alive once it got the "essence" of Jean Grey so from the moment she woke up she was a part of Jean. Claremont and Simomson both were involved in that retcon. If Maddie was never intended to be Jean, even if she were just a clone, why go to all that trouble to make her just a faucet of Jean?

She was never really intended to be anyone except Jean so when they wanted Jean herself back and so that basically ruined ruined the Maddie plot. And they retconned it then that Jean was never Phoenix, but with Maddie she was Jean reborn with the chance at a new life. With the retcon in Inferno they decided that Jean's powers were amped up like the FF thanks to the radiation storm, and she called out to the fundamental life force of the universe, Phoenix. So she was bonded with an alien entity and wasn't responsible for her actions alone.

Once they decided to bring Jean back as plain Jean who'd never been Phoenix they went the route of bring Jean back they had to account for why Scott would marry a drop dead lookalike. So she was retconned into a clone, instead of being Jean Grey reborn sans memories as she was originally intended to be, it's the only thing that makes sense. All this all still means that Jean was there on the moon in some form so she was the Phoenix during those issues. It's also around this time that the retcons in X-Men Classic start showing showing Jean wanted Logan, it was just to get back at the fact they had altered the Jean plans yet again. The first time editorial killed her off, then they resurrected her screwing up the Maddie plot.

3)Then in the X-Men The End series, while out of continuity, Maddie(the part of Jean that was Maddlyne Pryor was ripped from her by Nate Grey/X-Man in X-Man #5) overhears Scott saying that it was HER that he loved so much, then lo and behold there comes Phoenix/Jean looking for her missing piece in Maddie.

Maddie was the aspect of Jean that contained the soul connecting rapport(which is how Scott would know that Maddie was Jean on a basic level during 172-175 without really knowing consciously) and that means that she had the part of Jean's soul that was willing to commit suicide on the moon to save Scott, her friends, and the universe. And with that part gone thanks to X-Man, Jean and Scott grew apart(also due to his possession by Apocalypse) and Jean started going Phoenix again. Really, the Maddie part of Jean could have been considered a roadblock subconsciously preventing her from accessing the Phoenix force. Maddie is still out there on the psionic plane as a ghost per Cable 76 or 77.

Also, during the original DPS Jean constantly talks about "Phoenix's Power" as something apart from herself, she doesn't say "my powers." Even during Morrisons run she talks about the Phoenx as something other than herself that she tapes into and thanks to the nature of her mutation she can become one with it and it replaces her. The Phoenix force is the life's blood of the Marvel U/Eternity, it's like drinking from a well of life. Claremont himself wrote Exacilbur 25 where Galactus tells Rachel the jist of how it works. Jean isn't eternity. The Shi'ar had legends of other people being tainted by the Phoenix even during DPS so that rules out Jean being the first Phoenix host even without the Excalibur stories. Not to mention the end of "Here Comes Tomorrow" has her in a chamber filled with other hosts/avatars. She's a white Phoenix of the crown because she's so well suited to it thanks to her powers.

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[Post 261]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 21, 2007 01:11 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I don't understand why Claremont had all these signs insinuating a connection between Maddie and Jean, without having intended for there to be a connection. Not only does she look exactly like her, but she falls for Scott wuickly enough, was the only survivor of a fiery plane crash the same day Jean died on the moon, and even Storm saw some Phoenixy portent in Japan before meeting her.

I'll field this question since I spoke with Mr. Claremont about this very topic a few years ago while at a Convention.

Maddie was supposed to be your average everyday red-head. Her nigh-identical appearance to Jean and all the Phoenix-bird manifestations were all put in by him to be red herrings to the readers.

CC told me he was having fun with his readers to keep them guessing. His original plan for Maddie and Scott was that they were to wed and live happily ever after in Alaska. Nathan was to be born and it wouldn't be revealed for many years if he would be or wouldn't be a mutant. My interpretation of CC's response was that Nathan would be a normal, healthy baby who was going to grow up just as normal. Or, as normal as one can grow up in a world populated by super heroes/villains.

Scott would go back to the X-Men about once a year or once every two-three years for a mission. He would then go back home to Alaska after the mission was over.

CC wasn't sick and/or tired of Scott. CC had to put Scott on a hiatus because he wanted to further develop Storm's character as an emerging leader. CC also told me that he wanted Scott to have a happy ending that he so deserved after all he had been through over the years.

Oh! And just because Scott fell in love with Maddie because she is a red-head means nothing. As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to go for blondes more than any other hair-colored women.

Heck! Wolverine goes for red-heads, too. This tied in with his love for Rose.

Scott loved Jean and therefore he will be more susceptible to falling in love with another red-head.

There is nothing mystical or uncommon about it. It falls under the jurisdiction of basic psychology in ALL humans.

Hey, at least CC was going to write the story. Whereas the poor Alpha Flighters were killed off-panel by Marvel.

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[Post 262]
Author : Reign of the Supermen
Date : Mar 21, 2007 01:49 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I'll field this question since I spoke with Mr. Claremont about this very topic a few years ago while at a Convention.

Maddie was supposed to be your average everyday red-head. Her nigh-identical appearance to Jean and all the Phoenix-bird manifestations were all put in by him to be red herrings to the readers.

CC told me he was having fun with his readers to keep them guessing. His original plan for Maddie and Scott was that they were to wed and live happily ever after in Alaska. Nathan was to be born and it wouldn't be revealed for many years if he would be or wouldn't be a mutant. My interpretation of CC's response was that Nathan would be a normal, healthy baby who was going to grow up just as normal. Or, as normal as one can grow up in a world populated by super heroes/villains.

Scott would go back to the X-Men about once a year or once every two-three years for a mission. He would then go back home to Alaska after the mission was over.

CC wasn't sick and/or tired of Scott. CC had to put Scott on a hiatus because he wanted to further develop Storm's character as an emerging leader. CC also told me that he wanted Scott to have a happy ending that he so deserved after all he had been through over the years.

Oh! And just because Scott fell in love with Maddie because she is a red-head means nothing. As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to go for blondes more than any other hair-colored women.

Heck! Wolverine goes for red-heads, too. This tied in with his love for Rose.

Scott loved Jean and therefore he will be more susceptible to falling in love with another red-head.

There is nothing mystical or uncommon about it. It falls under the jurisdiction of basic psychology in ALL humans.

Hey, at least CC was going to write the story. Whereas the poor Alpha Flighters were killed off-panel by Marvel.


Right, but she wasn't just a redhead, she was a ringer for Jean, that's NOT normal. That's borderline obsessed and he can say whatever he wants it was a dangling plot that just got altered by the editors. If she was just some redhead he was moving on with there was no reason to put in the Phoenix connections and make her origins in question. And really, if she was her own character it seems like anyone else would fight like hell to keep her from being retconned into a clone of Jean or worse a clone with a piece of Jean's soul. He wrote that story and basically reduced Maddie from her own character to a piece of Jean during Inferno.

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[Post 263]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 21, 2007 06:10 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Right, but she wasn't just a redhead, she was a ringer for Jean, that's NOT normal. That's borderline obsessed and he can say whatever he wants it was a dangling plot that just got altered by the editors. If she was just some redhead he was moving on with there was no reason to put in the Phoenix connections and make her origins in question. And really, if she was her own character it seems like anyone else would fight like hell to keep her from being retconned into a clone of Jean or worse a clone with a piece of Jean's soul. He wrote that story and basically reduced Maddie from her own character to a piece of Jean during Inferno.

Exactly. How come we are supposed to have this woman who looks exactly like Jean is just a coincidence, or believe there's nothing wrong with Scott marrying her, specially so shortly after they met and not that long after Jean died?

Also, if she was really supposed to be Jean, then he can't complain about Jean returning having a negative effect on DPS.

And, like i said and Luke confirmed, he retired him so he could have Storm shine as the best of the best X-men leader ever. And i still bet as much as anyone wants that he would not give "a happy ending" to any of his favorites.

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[Post 264]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 21, 2007 06:36 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Right, but she wasn't just a redhead, she was a ringer for Jean, that's NOT normal. That's borderline obsessed and he can say whatever he wants it was a dangling plot that just got altered by the editors. If she was just some redhead he was moving on with there was no reason to put in the Phoenix connections and make her origins in question. And really, if she was her own character it seems like anyone else would fight like hell to keep her from being retconned into a clone of Jean or worse a clone with a piece of Jean's soul. He wrote that story and basically reduced Maddie from her own character to a piece of Jean during Inferno.

Maddie being a dead-ringer for Jean was supposed to be done that way. It was a classic red-herring to draw the readers in and keep them coming back.

There was no editorial tampering. The editorial tampering came when they told CC to make Maddie a clone of Jean. It came when the Inferno storyline started.

CC fought so hard to keep his original plans for Maddie/Scott/Nathan that he was threatened with being fired more than a couple times when the Inferno concept was being put together.

CC won't admit it publically, but I still feel the only reason he didn't tell Marvel to go to Hell and back and just quit was because the X-Men are his extended family. He wouldn't want to see them being written by anyone else. He wouldn't want to lose having control in their lives-- much like a father for his children.

You can believe what you want. It's a free country as they say. But, I know what CC and I talked about. It was a serious conversation.

Exactly. How come we are supposed to have this woman who looks exactly like Jean is just a coincidence, or believe there's nothing wrong with Scott marrying her, specially so shortly after they met and not that long after Jean died?

We're men. We men do some pretty stupid things when we are in love or think we are in love.

Women do pretty much the same thing.

Haven't you ever heard of people meeting and then running off to Vegas to get married after one date or a couple weeks of dating? Believe it or not it does happen. I've been smitten by women in the past that the idea of just throwing caution and reason to the wind and running off and getting hitched was clearly in my mind. Luckily I never did it. Or maybe I should say unluckily. Maybe one of them was destined to be my perfect partner and I let her go because getting married like that was deemed foolish. Only the Fates know.

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[Post 265]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Mar 21, 2007 05:50 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I know, but doesn't make the story any better, or changes it significantly, just explains why she looked so much like Jean.

Personally, I don't think Madelyne Pryor or Rachel Summers should have even been created by Chris Claremont and given the go ahead by Marvel to exist, with all the behind the scenes events that happened with the Phoenix Saga. Madelyne Pryor should have never existed and Rachel Summers, either. They all just served to dilute the real Jean Grey who should have stayed dead.

A friend of mine used to say that if Cyclops married Colleen Wing, none of these "clone issues" or issues with Jean Grey lookalikes would have ever happened. This whole fallout of the Phoenix Saga is the major source for confusion and drama in the X-Books, to this very day. Honestly, Jean was relevant as the Phoenix, but not beyond that. Is she so great she must have lookalikes, too? Death in comics is cheapened now because of all of this, and Cyclops got his credibility as a man entirely destroyed.

I must also agree to what Alpha man stated about having Cyclops leaving the X-Men. It's sad but true -- I don't think Mr. Claremont would have done such a thing to Storm or any other female character in the X-Men. It's also a telling fact that really, no one here can object to this. Storm only left the team because higher-ups took her (and Mr. Claremont!) away from UXM.

-- DN

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[Post 266]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 21, 2007 10:24 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Personally, I don't think Madelyne Pryor or Rachel Summers should have even been created by Chris Claremont and given the go ahead by Marvel to exist, with all the behind the scenes events that happened with the Phoenix Saga. Madelyne Pryor should have never existed and Rachel Summers, either. They all just served to dilute the real Jean Grey who should have stayed dead.

Not that i dislike the characters necessarily, but i agree. And people talk about editorial interference undermining his run, but this days no editor would ever allow the creation of Madelyne or her marriage with Scott.


A friend of mine used to say that if Cyclops married Colleen Wing, none of these "clone issues" or issues with Jean Grey lookalikes would have ever happened. This whole fallout of the Phoenix Saga is the major source for confusion and drama in the X-Books, to this very day. Honestly, Jean was relevant as the Phoenix, but not beyond that. Is she so great she must have lookalikes, too? Death in comics is cheapened now because of all of this,

I agree with all this.


and Cyclops got his credibility as a man entirely destroyed.

No, he didn't. However, it ended up creating, or showing, a very different side of Cyclops, and gave the basis to any writer say his love was more of an obsession than anything else from the start or became when Maddie showed up, and couldn't really work. It helped to deepen the character, but not in the way he was planning, or making him look better.

And the fact that no X-man noticed anything wrong with Scott being with Maddie, or if they did, haven't tried to talk to him about it (which is worse) doesn't make them look good too.



I must also agree to what Alpha man stated about having Cyclops leaving the X-Men. It's sad but true -- I don't think Mr. Claremont would have done such a thing to Storm or any other female character in the X-Men. It's also a telling fact that really, no one here can object to this. Storm only left the team because higher-ups took her (and Mr. Claremont!) away from UXM.

He had Rogue retiring because she was powerless in X-treme, but she wasn't as much of a favorite as Storm or Betsy are, and i doubt he wouldn't have her on the team again eventually.

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[Post 267]
Author : peeper
Date : Mar 21, 2007 10:27 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Honestly, Jean was relevant as the Phoenix, but not beyond that. Is she so great she must have lookalikes, too?

I think the reason they've played up so much hype around Jean is that, in herself, she's not much of a character, especially not when pitted against the characters that surround her, all of whom have a lot more internal conflict, colorful backgrounds and are a lot more well-rounded overall.

I must also agree to what Alpha man stated about having Cyclops leaving the X-Men. It's sad but true -- I don't think Mr. Claremont would have done such a thing to Storm or any other female character in the X-Men. It's also a telling fact that really, no one here can object to this. Storm only left the team because higher-ups took her (and Mr. Claremont!) away from UXM.

I agree.

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[Post 268]
Author : perdid
Date : Mar 22, 2007 01:06 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

"she's not much of a character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
actually for me, no other x-men is as 3 dimentional as jean , she always seem so alive to me.She is before all human! she is'nt a pseudo african goddess, her father is'nt a demon, she is'nt a 100 year old killing machine or a gentleman thief....she is the girl next door, she had to grow, to learn, to get over her mistake, she faced her dark side,lost control to it,sacrify herself to die as a human, she is passion with all the good and bad, she is human she make mistake but take responsabilities, she is struggling to keep her humanity when it will be so easy to let go, let the power change her.And through all that she is always there for her friend, for the one who need help or confort, she was the link between all xmen, because despite the phoenix she is the only real human one.
She is strongh headed, she often told xavier off(much more than scott), she know what she want she respect other and thier difference...
if in an imaginary world I was a super-heroes, I will not want to be a stiff ,repress leader or a superior goddess , or even a brutal animal with the heart of a samurai...I will want to be a simple human with a warm heart struggling to make the right descision when the power I possess make it so tempting to take the wrong one.

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[Post 269]
Author : peeper
Date : Mar 23, 2007 12:11 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

"she's not much of a character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
actually for me, no other x-men is as 3 dimentional as jean , (...)

I can't see her as "the girl next door", because she's the one who's good at everything, she's the one everyone falls in love with or becomes best friends with, she's the one with power beyond measure, wisdom beyond her years, the looks of a red-headed Barbie and so on. Her deaths are grieved more than anyone else's, despite everyone knowing she'll come back. Jean's character is never treated as though she was an average person. And I feel the hype just doesn't match the character when I look at her. I don't feel she's worth it.

And I hardly see her as the only human one, either. All the X-men are human, they just have very dramatic back stories and circumstances that affect them. Where they have extreme strengths, they also have reasons for them, having had to develop them through a life of trials. This goes for Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Rachel and others I can't think of right now. Jean is pretty much the only X-man who DOESN'T have much of a reason for her strengths other than that the writers wanted her to have them. Yet she's magically able to tackle the Phoenix force. If anything's unrealistic, that's it.

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[Post 270]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Mar 23, 2007 12:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I can't see her as "the girl next door", because she's the one who's good at everything, she's the one everyone falls in love with or becomes best friends with


I always thought that thats pretty much exactly the kind of girl people are thinking of when they say "she's the girl next door".

I always saw Jean as the character with the most power who started out being treated like she was weak and needed to be protected. I think she had to prove herself and her power more than any of the original five. I mean heck, Xavier thought she was so weak that she couldnt handle her powers so he took half her powers away, she only got them back by what? Accident? Force of will? I'm unclear on that particular point. I think a lot of people who dont like Jean as a character or who think she's overrated dont remember the character she was and only think of the character she became, no one wants to remember how she got there. For me some of the coolest aspects of Jeans character come from long before I was even born and I only learned of them through back issues, bios and here on this board. But I also think that a lot of people who dont like Jean have just decided that they dont like Jean and see any mention of her cool character moments or the things in her past that make her interesting as "hype".

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[Post 271]
Author : peeper
Date : Mar 23, 2007 01:10 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I think a lot of people who dont like Jean as a character or who think she's overrated dont remember the character she was and only think of the character she became, no one wants to remember how she got there.

Yes, she went from weak, typical Silver Age female to pure perfection. I'm really not interested in either. Silver Age Jean is long gone and there's no trace left of her. Heck, X-men:First Class doesn't even have a trace of Silver Age Jean, she's pretty much retconned into having been the perfect woman from the start.

But I also think that a lot of people who dont like Jean have just decided that they dont like Jean and see any mention of her cool character moments or the things in her past that make her interesting as "hype".

No, hype is when you have huge storylines spun around a character that aren't actually about the character herself or her inner struggles and workings, but things tacked onto her. Like the Phoenix, her relationship with Scott and the constant love triangles.

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[Post 272]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Mar 23, 2007 01:28 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

You mean stories that end up about Emma? Im not a fan of those either.
I wonder what plans, if any, CC had in mind for Emma.

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[Post 273]
Author : peeper
Date : Mar 23, 2007 01:36 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

You mean stories that end up about Emma? Im not a fan of those either.
I wonder what plans, if any, CC had in mind for Emma.

I really haven't read enough about Emma to be able to say much about her. I hate when she's pitted against Jean, though, because I think it hurts both characters by simplifying them. It would be a lot more interesting if they were friends, imo.

[Marty P]

Part six:

[Post 274]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 23, 2007 03:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I wonder what plans, if any, CC had in mind for Emma.

Well, CC mentioned last year on the UXM Thread that he had always meant for Emma to be the embodiment of the perfect woman. Beauty and brains. All natural and no biological implants and/or surgeries.

As for other plans... he didn't say and no one asked at the time.

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[Post 275]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 25, 2007 04:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Care to elaborate? Sorry if this is going over old ground for some folk, but this comment intrigues me.

My passion is the X-Men Event built-up during Chris Claremont's final years on Uncanny X-Men. Which lasted from 1989-91. He had several running subplots and was weaving a massive epic, leading up to UXM #300.

It wasn't necessarily an X-Men "Event" by nature, just ongoing stories but the way CC wove it all together, it played like you were reading one novel.

The Powers That Be at Marvel abruptly halted this saga, and Claremont quit. To this day, I still desire to see the story finished. Which would explain to *many* here at Comix-Fan why I am so passionate about Claremont's X-Men. And rather disinteresed in all these other writers, since I will not be seeing any more of that story come from their pen.

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[Post 276]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 25, 2007 04:37 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Charles, Erik, Logan, Kurt, Ororo, Peter, Kitty, Lockheed, Rogue, Scott, Jean, Hank, Betsy, Rachel, Sean.

How can I ever forget you.

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[Post 277]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Mar 25, 2007 07:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Do you mean those characters as written by Mr. Claremont, David?

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[Post 278]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 25, 2007 09:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Do you mean those characters as written by Mr. Claremont, David?

My guess would be that is exactly what David means, Ann.

None of the characters he mentioned have been written with as much enthusiasm as when they were penned by CC. Except for perhaps Logan when Larry Hama and Frank Tieri were on his solo book.

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[Post 279]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Mar 26, 2007 03:27 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, CC mentioned last year on the UXM Thread that he had always meant for Emma to be the embodiment of the perfect woman. Beauty and brains. All natural and no biological implants and/or surgeries.

Someone get on that retcon ASAP!

Charles, Erik, Logan, Kurt, Ororo, Peter, Kitty, Lockheed, Rogue, Scott, Jean, Hank, Betsy, Rachel, Sean.

How can I ever forget you.

I think I know how you feel. Although I have rather liked some writers take on these characters and some others less so, they don't compare to the magic I feel every time I pick up an old issue written by CC. I guess it could just be nostalgia taking its toll but to me there is a certain spirit missing from the lot of them that is just not there anymore. Gah! Now I feel old.

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[Post 280]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Mar 26, 2007 07:49 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I feel Magneto and Emma Frost are both possibly the worst leaders in the X-Books if not the entire X-Men history. IMO, both these characters have the additional mutant ability to get their followers killed. Emma Frost's recent history with the Hellions and Gen X proved that for all time, IMO. And as for Magneto...'nuff said.

Emma being on an X-team, and teaching mutant children, should never happen again. IMO, she's only around in the books because of sadly, a T&A (and possibly an S&M) factor. Given the fact I'm a Bishop fan, and I compare his listed track record as a leader compared to hers -- well, it amuses me about the backlash he gets compared to Emma Frost.

Originally posted by Alpha man

No, he didn't. However, it ended up creating, or showing, a very different side of Cyclops, and gave the basis to any writer say his love was more of an obsession than anything else from the start or became when Maddie showed up, and couldn't really work. It helped to deepen the character, but not in the way he was planning, or making him look better.

And the fact that no X-man noticed anything wrong with Scott being with Maddie, or if they did, haven't tried to talk to him about it (which is worse) doesn't make them look good too.
By having Cyclops go off with a Jean Grey lookalike makes him seem as if he's some kind of dumb animal really, with a one-note "attraction" for Jean. If another Jean clone enters the X-Books, he's going to want to marry her, too?? (This idea was already mentioned in X-FACTOR vol. 1, #53.) It's really not one of the finer moments in Cyclops' history.

This in addition to Scott's long-time following of Charles Xavier, gives truth to what Mark Waid stated about Scott "not having an independent thought since he was fifteen years old".

As for Madelyne, the reason given that any of the X-Men didn't notice anything different and/or wrong with her (Wolverine in particular), was that Mr. Sinister was incredibly good with his cloning process.

Jean was awesome as the Phoenix and beyond that, she isn't much of a character. None of the original X-Men are, beyond a certain extent -- they all needed power-ups and/or tragic backgrounds to make them relevant. IMO, when Jean was the Phoenix, Storm got ignored in the X-Books, and Storm only became relevant once Jean died -- since back then, death was respected and it was thought Jean wasn't coming back from the dead.

-- DN

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[Post 281]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 26, 2007 09:33 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Hey just saw some info on what was up with Gambit and Sinister straight from Claremont himself, and it is just a little different than we all previously posted. This info is from the 'Classic Marvel Figurine Collection' that was released in England. Apparently these figures are making their way to the U.S., and i have here the transcript from the Gambit figure.

[B] Transcribed from C.M.F.C. #35 - Gambit:

Remy LeBeau may well have been one of Marvel's most popular mutants for the past 15 or so years but writer Chris Claremont had a different fate in mind when he conceieved the Cajun master of bio-kinetic energy.

If Claremont - the man, who, more than any other, is responsible for the X-Men's long-lasting popularity - had had his way, Gambit, as LeBeau is better known, might never have been a hero, let alone a highly-regarded member of the mutant team.

"Originally the idea was I wanted to set up an extended new villain for the X-Men, I was tired of just going back to Magneto and the Brotherhood (of Evil Mutants) and the same old same old. Dave (Cockrum) and I were over ideas and what we were coming towards was a mysterious young boy - apparently an 11-year-old - at the orphanage where Scott (Summers aka Cyclops) was raised, who turned out to be the secret master of the place. In effect what we were setting up was a guy who was aging (proportionately) over a lifespan of roughly a thousand years. Even though he looked like an 11-year-old, he'd actually been alive since the mid-century at this point - he was actually about 50," stated Claremont.

Sinister Origins

Drawing pararells with Claudia from Anne Rice's Vampier Chronicles (the role played by Spider-Man's Kirsten Dunst in 1994's Interview with a Vampire) the man they call the X-meister continued, "He had all the grown up urges. He's growing up in his mind but his body isn't capable of handling it, which makes him quite cranky. And, of course, looking like an 11-year-old, who'd take him seriously in the criminal community?"

"So he built himself an agent in a sense, which was Mr. Sinister (inrtoduced by Claremont in Uncanny X-Men #221 in a story drawn by Marc Silvestri and Dan Green)," added the writer. "That was, in effect, the rationale behind Sinister's rather - for want of a better word - childish or kid-like appearance. The costume... the look... the face... it's what would scare a child. Even when he was designed, he wasn't what you'd expect in a guy like that."

"The problem was that, as he's monitoring the X-Men, he sees and falls for Rogue and wants to win her," added Claremont, a writer lauded and criticised in equal measure for his intricate subplots and long-term plotting. "But he can't approach him as himself; he's too young and won't be old enough forever - as far as Rogue's concerned. He can't approach her as Sinister obviously."

The nameless villain's solution, explained Claremont - who stressed that this was his original concept for the Cajun mutant - was to grow an older version of himself... namely Gambit. As originally concieved, Gambit was a bad guy. "He was supposed to come in, meet Rogue, Rogue was supposed to fall in love with him, the act of falling in love develops a humanity in him that seperates him out from Sinister or rather Sinister's human half. So in a sense, we have a love triangle between a now 60-year old mind in an 11-year-old body, the young Gambit, and Rogue. One's good, one's bad. Originally he was a bad guy pretending to be good but then he would discover that maybe he liked being good more and he was torn one way or the other. Ultimately there would be a conflict between Gambit and his creator, his true self.

Now I was a real big fan of Gambit coming in just to infiltrate and destroy the X-Men from within, that would've been an awesome tragic story and a very cool twist to the character. He never did seem like a true hero anyways, and him being created just to be in a relationship with Rogue cheapens the character, I think. For me, the obsession with Rogue and making Gambit an independent personality that broke off from little old Nathan would just not be as exciting or cool.

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[Post 282]
Author : Marty P
Date : Mar 26, 2007 10:05 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, this is pretty well known by many long-time fans.

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[Post 283]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 26, 2007 10:07 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I am also very intrigued by these trading cards and the pics of the two X teams for 1991,I was wondering if anyone can host those pics somewhere or send them to me. Thanks

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[Post 284]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 26, 2007 10:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, this is pretty well known by many long-time fans.

Ah, I didnt see anything about Gambit being created to love Rogue, just him being the traitor in this thread or the previous locked one so I thought i would add for anyone who hasn't ever heard this.

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[Post 285]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 27, 2007 01:36 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I feel Magneto and Emma Frost are both possibly the worst leaders in the X-Books if not the entire X-Men history. IMO, both these characters have the additional mutant ability to get their followers killed.
Emma Frost's recent history with the Hellions and Gen X proved that for all time, IMO.

Yeah, right, because the Hellions getting killed by a crazy-time traveler with Sentinels from the future while she was in a coma is definitively her fault


Given the fact I'm a Bishop fan, and I compare his listed track record as a leader compared to hers -- well, it amuses me about the backlash he gets compared to Emma Frost.

That happens because Bishop is a boring character, whom after his "traitor" storyline was told, had no purpose of existing anymore, and did nothing until he became a cop and became Stark's mutant lapdog.


By having Cyclops go off with a Jean Grey lookalike makes him seem as if he's some kind of dumb animal really, with a one-note "attraction" for Jean. If another Jean clone enters the X-Books, he's going to want to marry her, too?? (This idea was already mentioned in X-FACTOR vol. 1, #53.) It's really not one of the finer moments in Cyclops' history.

It doesn't make him look like a "dumb animal", but, yes, it shows clearly that the relationship with Jean, or at least his feelings for her, weren't very healthy, or not as much as they looked like, and that he had problems than he appeared to have. Another reason why many people believe that the two of them post-DPS haven't worked well as a couple, CC ended up making it something completely different than what it was before.



This in addition to Scott's long-time following of Charles Xavier, gives truth to what Mark Waid stated about Scott "not having an independent thought since he was fifteen years old".

Considering that Scott has just expelled Xavier away from the mansion, and even before called him on his ******** more than most X-men, the idea has no truth at all, is just Onslaught being Onslaught.



As for Madelyne, the reason given that any of the X-Men didn't notice anything different and/or wrong with her (Wolverine in particular), was that Mr. Sinister was incredibly good with his cloning process.

No, they haven't noticed anything wrong with the fact she looked so much like Jean or with Scott marrying her, and just a couple of months after they met, is because of pure PIS, because Claremont did not wanted the fans asking what was wrong



Jean was awesome as the Phoenix and beyond that, she isn't much of a character. None of the original X-Men are, beyond a certain extent -- they all needed power-ups and/or tragic backgrounds to make them relevant.

Iceman and Beast don't have tragic backgrounds. Archangel's tragic story came when he was a well estabilished character and was not a background story, and Jean's only in DPS. And tell me which character at Marvel did not had either a power-up since it's creation, or a tragic background and/or story created, or both? If you're saying that all the O5 are only relevant because of them, then Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Rogue, Bishop, etc, are all irrelevant except by their power-ups or tragic stories? Or how about characters like Iron Man, who gets a power boost nearly every month, Invisible Woman, who passed from the weakest Fantastic Four member to the most powerful, or even Spider-Man or the Hulk, which had power boosts as well along the years? Only the fact that they were the originals alone made them relevant, and combined with the fact that most (many would say all) are already interesting characters since the beginning, or became eventually, have and had important positions in X-men, and were integral part of several great stories, makes them interesting already.

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[Post 286]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 27, 2007 03:27 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Ah, I didnt see anything about Gambit being created to love Rogue, just him being the traitor in this thread or the previous locked one so I thought i would add for anyone who hasn't ever heard this.

Yes, that's news to me that Gambit was designed to love Rogue. Intriguing, have you discovered anything else, Mr. Sinister?

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[Post 287]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 27, 2007 05:09 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, that's news to me that Gambit was designed to love Rogue. Intriguing, have you discovered anything else, Mr. Sinister?

Yeah, for me too. I knew he and Rogue would have a relationship, and she would fall for him, but he would still betray the team.

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[Post 288]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 27, 2007 06:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

As for Madelyne, the reason given that any of the X-Men didn't notice anything different and/or wrong with her (Wolverine in particular), was that Mr. Sinister was incredibly good with his cloning process.

-- DN

Actually, the real reason is that Maddie was never meant to be a clone of Jean. Kurt Busiek screwed everything up by coming up with the lame idea to resurrect Jean Grey and put her on X-Factor when it first came out.

Here's a CC interview from a while back:

The original Madelyne storyline was that, at its simplest level, she was that one in a million shot that just happened to look like Jean [Grey, a.k.a. the first Phoenix]! And the relationship was summed up by the moment when Scott says: "Are you Jean?" And she punches him! That was in [Uncanny X-Men #] 174. Because her whole desire was to be loved for herself not to be loved as the evocation of her boyfriend's dead sweetheart.
I mean, it's a classical theme. You can go back to a whole host of 30's films, 40's, Hitchcock films -, but it all got invalidated by the resurrection of Jean Grey in X-Factor # 1. The original plotline was that Scott marries Madelyne, they have their child, they go off to Alaska, he goes to work for his grandparents, he retires from the X-Men. He's a reserve member. He's available for emergencies. He comes back on special occasions, for special fights, but he has a life. He has grown up. He has grown out of the monastery; he is in the real world now. He has a child. He has maybe more than one child. It's a metaphor for us all. We all grow up. We all move on.
Scott was going to move on. Jean was dead get on with your life. And it was close to be a happy ending. They lived happily everafter, and it was to create the impression that maybe if you came back in ten years, other X-Men would have grown up and out, too. Would Kitty stay with the team forever? Would Nightcrawler? Would any of them? Because that way we could evolve them into new directions, we could bring in new characters. There would be an ongoing sense of renewal, and growth and change in a positive sense.
Then, unfortunately, Jean was resurrected, Scott dumps his wife and kid and goes back to the old girlfriend. So it not only destroys Scott's character as a hero and as a decent human being it creates an untenable structural situation: what do we do with Madelyne and the kid?


CC Interview (http://www.seriejournalen.dk/tegnese...asp?art=&ID=32)

I highly recommend reading this interview. It gives great insight into what goes through CC's noggin'.

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[Post 289]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 27, 2007 07:34 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, the real reason is that Maddie was never meant to be a clone of Jean.

... and a character questioning if there was anything wrong with the marriage would make the readers question it (even more), so they were just supposed to don't see anything wrong.


Kurt Busiek screwed everything up by coming up with the lame idea to resurrect Jean Grey and put her on X-Factor when it first came out.


Actually, the lame idea came from Shooter, Busiek just provided the way she would be brought back (Shooter wanted her having nothing to do with the events of DPS).

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[Post 290]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 27, 2007 08:25 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, that's news to me that Gambit was designed to love Rogue. Intriguing, have you discovered anything else, Mr. Sinister?


Nope, sorry I don't know anything else about this, just that transcript I posted. It's just wierd to me that instead of being the "hero" side of Sinister, and eventually a traitor, he was actually only meant as an older version of little Nathan's body with a crazy obsession for Storm, who would then split off from Nathan entirely. I love just the basic traitor storyline as previously stated, not this one. I guess Jim Lee went ahead with this plot anyways, setting in motion years of bad storylines of "will they, won't they" Rogue and Gambit love stories. Ugh, poor Gambit, if only the original traitor storyline was what saw print, with no Rogue involved, I'd be happy.

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[Post 291]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 28, 2007 05:53 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Thanks, Luke. That interview spill the beans on a lot of what Claremont planned for X-Men in the early 90s.

If only he could have gotten all that finished. All the Whedons, Morrisons, Lobdells, and Careys could have come later, but I so badly wanted to see the rest of Claremont's epic story play out.

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[Post 292]
Author : tormented_spawn
Date : Mar 28, 2007 06:43 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But Whedon, Morrison and Carey didn’t write X-Men till after 2000. You mean, Claremont can stretch his storylines to run that long? David, I thought you are put off by long decompressed storylines? I guess, seeing as how Lobdell turned me off X-Men, having Claremont continue to write X-Men throughout the 90’s would be a good idea.

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[Post 293]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Mar 28, 2007 07:16 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

lol @ "Thats very discreet of him."

I actually think that Wolverine becoming adamantium polar bear man, while it sounds like it would look really stupid, is actually a pretty interesting way to eliminate his adamantium. And Colossus ripping off his adamantium claws? AWESOME. The X-World would definitely be very different if CC hadnt been taken off, up to a point I think that might actually be a good thing, as long as at some point he let someone else in the mix with fresh ideas, one voice on all X-Books doesnt seem to work for very long.

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[Post 294]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 28, 2007 02:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

... and a character questioning if there was anything wrong with the marriage would make the readers question it (even more), so they were just supposed to don't see anything wrong.

My best guess is that the X-Men (or at least a few of them) knew Scott marrying Maddie might have been a very bad idea, but they most likely figured Scott is an adult and is wise enough to make his own choices.

Real life example:

A good friend of mine is getting married soon. His fiance just recently hit on me. I know this marriage is doomed and not just because she hit on me. After speaking to two other mutual friends concerning this incident they advised me to keep my mouth shut and never bring it up to my friend who's getting married. Basically, because it will ruin the friendship.

I'm assuming this is what CC was demonstrating by having the X-Men keep quiet about Scott marrying Maddie.



Actually, the lame idea came from Shooter, Busiek just provided the way she would be brought back (Shooter wanted her having nothing to do with the events of DPS).

Are you sure about it being Shooter? I ask because Shooter was the one that argued up and down that Jean/Dark Phoenix had to die to pay for her crimes. He was very adamant about it and there was quite the argument with CC at the time the decision was made to kill Jean.

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[Post 295]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 28, 2007 06:19 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

My best guess is that the X-Men (or at least a few of them) knew Scott marrying Maddie might have been a very bad idea, but they most likely figured Scott is an adult and is wise enough to make his own choices.

Real life example:

A good friend of mine is getting married soon. His fiance just recently hit on me. I know this marriage is doomed and not just because she hit on me. After speaking to two other mutual friends concerning this incident they advised me to keep my mouth shut and never bring it up to my friend who's getting married. Basically, because it will ruin the friendship.

I'm assuming this is what CC was demonstrating by having the X-Men keep quiet about Scott marrying Maddie.

CC uses thought bubbles all the time, explaining every thought the character have. He had the X-men and Lilandra stunned by how much Maddie looked like Jean, but there isn't a single indication that there is something wrong. And considering he was trying to make it the perfect marriage, i'm not surprised. Not only the X-men don't say anything to Scott, but they don't talk with each other about what he is doing.

And, BTW, your example is not really the same thing, or even comparable, i think.





Are you sure about it being Shooter? I ask because Shooter was the one that argued up and down that Jean/Dark Phoenix had to die to pay for her crimes. He was very adamant about it and there was quite the argument with CC at the time the decision was made to kill Jean.

Exactly, that's why Shooter wanted Jean to be brought back without having anything to do with the Phoenix, and then Busiek offered the cocoon "sollution" .

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[Post 296]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 28, 2007 06:27 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

CC uses thought bubbles all the time, explaining every thought the character have. He had the X-men and Lilandra stunned by how much Maddie looked like Jean, but there isn't a single indication that there is something wrong. And considering he was trying to make it the perfect marriage, i'm not surprised. Not only the X-men don't say anything to Scott, but they don't talk with each other about what he is doing.

The only person that can truly answer this quandry is Mr. Claremont himself. Hopefully, he'll be at WWE in June and I can ask him at that time.

And, BTW, your example is not really the same thing, or even comparable, i think.

Sorry about that. I used my example to state when it's just best to keep [my] mouth shut. I didn't mean to imply my real life occurrence is the same as Scott and Maddie's marriage.




Exactly, that's why Shooter wanted Jean to be brought back without having anything to do with the Phoenix, and then Busiek offered the cocoon "sollution" .

I really have no good words to say about Jim Shooter so I'll just leave it at what you and I have both already stated about him.

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[Post 297]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Mar 29, 2007 02:19 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To bring in some fresh debating,i have another question.With all the possibilities that Claremont had before he was taken off,or even before.What did he have in store for the relationship between Jean and Logan?Sure,there might have been nothing there.But im just wondering if Claremont had any plans for the two of them.

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[Post 298]
Author : peeper
Date : Mar 29, 2007 03:37 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To bring in some fresh debating,i have another question.With all the possibilities that Claremont had before he was taken off,or even before.What did he have in store for the relationship between Jean and Logan?Sure,there might have been nothing there.But im just wondering if Claremont had any plans for the two of them.

I seem to recall hearing he had some kind of idea of getting them together which involved Logan being brainwashed into being evil, Jean going undercover and using sex to get closer to Logan (while still dating/being married to Cyclops, I think) and then she would telepathically fix his brainwashing and, in the process, she would end up being the only person in the world who understood Logan and there would be True Wuv.

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[Post 299]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 29, 2007 04:49 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I seem to recall hearing he had some kind of idea of getting them together which involved Logan being brainwashed into being evil, Jean going undercover and using sex to get closer to Logan (while still dating/being married to Cyclops, I think) and then she would telepathically fix his brainwashing and, in the process, she would end up being the only person in the world who understood Logan and there would be True Wuv.

Yes, that's the lovely idea of his, to continue the plan of have all the characters he cared as far away from Cyclops as possible; the other part would be revealing that Rachel isn't really his daughter. And he was already having her completely forgetting that she is his daughter and not showing to care about him all that much.

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[Post 300]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 29, 2007 04:57 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But Whedon, Morrison and Carey didn’t write X-Men till after 2000. You mean, Claremont can stretch his storylines to run that long? David, I thought you are put off by long decompressed storylines?

Chris Claremont was one of the most dense of writers back then. So decompression wouldn't have become a problem. I recall Jim Lee saying how jam-packed CC's plots were, with story & action. And that's what I WANT from an X-Men adventure.

Claremont said flatly in Luke Heller's interview, he planned to stay on X-Men until 2015, and beyond. X-Men was his little corner of the Marvel Universe. Whedon, Carey and GM could have had fun......elsewhere !!




I actually think that Wolverine becoming adamantium polar bear man, while it sounds like it would look really stupid, is actually a pretty interesting way to eliminate his adamantium. And Colossus ripping off his adamantium claws? AWESOME. The X-World would definitely be very different if CC hadnt been taken off, up to a point I think that might actually be a good thing, as long as at some point he let someone else in the mix with fresh ideas, one voice on all X-Books doesnt seem to work for very long.

Claremont was still in his prime in the early 90s, and I think his ideas were INCREDIBLE. Being an avid 80s X-fan, Claremont's vision for the 1990s was the next step in their evolution. I think it would have worked even better because it would have tied in with his 80s work and been a seamless saga.

I think he's run out of steam lately. I think it's a mixture of 1) running out of enthusiasm and 2) the ideas he DOES come up with, Marvel nixes halfway thru(X*S*E, Destiny's Diaries, Hellfire Club, Neo, Excalibur 3.)

I really have no good words to say about Jim Shooter so I'll just leave it at what you and I have both already stated about him.

Jim Shooter did some good things. He presided over Frank Miller's run on Daredevil, John Byrne on X-Men, Fantastic Four, Alpha Flight and Incredible Hulk. Shooter oversaw Secret Wars, Micronauts, David Michelinie/Bob Layton's unforgettable run on Iron Man, Roger Stern's remarkable runs on Avengers, Captain America and Amazing Spider-Man. He brought in the hugely succesful G.I. Joe comic and Walt Simonson's Thor era.

To bring in some fresh debating,i have another question.With all the possibilities that Claremont had before he was taken off,or even before.What did he have in store for the relationship between Jean and Logan?Sure,there might have been nothing there.But im just wondering if Claremont had any plans for the two of them.

Peeper got this mostly right. Chris Claremont has stated his Dark Wolverine Saga several times. One repercussion of this was Jean Grey would have secretly infilitrated the Hand, to rescue Wolverine who was brainwashed by them into their assassin. (This would have occured in the 290s of Uncanny X-Men. ) Jean would have allowed herself to be seduced by Logan, in order to get closer to him in her attempt to dig under all the Hand's spells. In so doing, her rapport with Scott Summers would have been broken forever.

However, Jean Grey would have not been succesful in breaking the Hand's twisted grip on Wolverine. Logan had to do that on his own. The conclusion to this tale would have been Logan and Jean would have become a Hot Couple. Once Logan was freed, emotionally and physically drained, he and Jean would have become lovers. And Cyclops would have had to struggle with the decisions made in the Dark Wolverine Saga. Claremont has said he NEVER would have had Scott and Jean marry. Because I suspect he planned for Jean and Logan to hook up instead. Whether it would have LASTED is another question.

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[Post 301]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Mar 29, 2007 05:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Peeper got this mostly right. Chris Claremont has stated his Dark Wolverine Saga several times. One repercussion of this was Jean Grey would have secretly infilitrated the Hand, to rescue Wolverine who was brainwashed by them into their assassin. (This would have occured in the 290s of Uncanny X-Men. ) Jean would have allowed herself to be seduced by Logan, in order to get closer to him in her attempt to dig under all the Hand's spells. In so doing, her rapport with Scott Summers would have been broken forever.

However, Jean Grey would have not been succesful in breaking the Hand's twisted grip on Wolverine. Logan had to do that on his own. The conclusion to this tale would have been Logan and Jean would have become a Hot Couple. Once Logan was freed, emotionally and physically drained, he and Jean would have become lovers. And Cyclops would have had to struggle with the decisions made in the Dark Wolverine Saga. Claremont has said he NEVER would have had Scott and Jean marry. Because I suspect he planned for Jean and Logan to hook up instead. Whether it would have LASTED is another question.

Claremont intended to marry Scott and Jean after DPS. After Shooter broke up the relationship with the substitute for Jean, then he got angry and begun to discount his problems with editorial on the character, which is very unprofessional at best and even childish.

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[Post 302]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 29, 2007 05:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Bringing up Jean & Logan, and the whole Dark Wolverine Saga , reminded me how much earth-shaking concepts Claremont had planned leading up to Uncanny X-Men #300.

Claremont has said he had a 30-issue epic in the waiting, can you imagine a 30-issue mega-arc?! Both his Dark Wolverine tale, plus the Shadow King Saga which would have interwoven between Uncanny X-Men and the newly-launched sister series X-Men. Jim Lee on one title, Whilce Portacio on the other.

How could Marvel have let all that go?

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[Post 303]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 29, 2007 04:00 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Claremont intended to marry Scott and Jean after DPS. After Shooter broke up the relationship with the substitute for Jean, then he got angry and begun to discount his problems with editorial on the character, which is very unprofessional at best and even childish.

You're way off base. I've met CC three times at various Cons throughout the years and one thing he is not is unprofessional nor childish.

Never once did he bash Marvel, his editors or other creators. His demeanor was always professional and polite. CC is the epitome of etiquette. As a matter of fact, it took quite a bit of work on my part to get out of him what truly happened to cause him to leave UXM/XM back in 1991.

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[Post 304]
Author : impulseucf
Date : Mar 29, 2007 04:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Bringing up Jean & Logan, and the whole Dark Wolverine Saga , reminded me how much earth-shaking concepts Claremont had planned leading up to Uncanny X-Men #300.

Claremont has said he had a 30-issue epic in the waiting, can you imagine a 30-issue mega-arc?! Both his Dark Wolverine tale, plus the Shadow King Saga which would have interwoven between Uncanny X-Men and the newly-launched sister series X-Men. Jim Lee on one title, Whilce Portacio on the other.

How could Marvel have let all that go?Would you mind summarizing what he had planned, or how much you know? It sounds interesting.

Luke, did you state previously why he left in 1991? I'd love to know. That was right when I was getting into comics, and some of his last issuers were my first.

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[Post 305]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 29, 2007 07:56 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

My whole thoughts on Madelyne Pryor and Scott marrying is very positive. I really liked Madelyne myself, prior to when Scott walked out on her. I think Claremont had an ingenius idea making Scott fall in love and leave the X-Men with a girl who looked identical to Jean. It not only progressed the series and continue his onward storylines, shaking up the status quo as only he could, but it also left the reader wanting so much more. It made the fans actually care about Madelyne, other than just being the regular old boring wife of cyclops. She had an extreme air of mystery around her, and you always in the back of your mind were wondering is she actually Jean, is she just a regular girl, or is she something entirely different. It made readers actually interested in Madelyne and Cyclops, even long after they left the mansion, which i thought was a great way to not only move Scott along, but also make him an important character, readers would actually still be interested in him and Madelyne, and he wouldnt be just another old X-Man in limbo, but an intriguing and perplexing sideplot.




I just finished rereading Claremont's full run on the X-titles, and i must confess i am a fan of the Skrull Shi'ar storyline at the end(minus Xavier coming back to Earth), but it seems Chris didnt even want to write this as Jim Lee has plotting credits. Was this whole storyline editorially mandated, and did Chris ever say he actually wanted to go ahead with that storyline or was it just all completely Lee's ideas, and setting up for him to take over? Anyone?

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[Post 306]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 29, 2007 09:52 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Luke, did you state previously why he left in 1991? I'd love to know. That was right when I was getting into comics, and some of his last issuers were my first.

Myself, David R and a few others have stated in the past the overlying reasons CC left the X-books in 1991.

It all boiled down to editorial control shredding all his storylines.

The other big reason was Marvel in the 1990's was giving full control of all their comics to the artist rather than the writers. No longer were the writers doing the scripting. They were simply filling in words for the panels that were already drawn by the artists. Flash and big boobs and guns were the words of the 1990's.

*Writing? Bah! Who needs good writing when we have such beautiful pictures for the readers.*

That was the belief system back then and it is no wonder the 1990's were filled with such drek.

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[Post 307]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Mar 30, 2007 12:23 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

X-editor, Andy Schmidt, suggested at the recent X-Panel at LA, that the ‘Books of Destiny’ will be touched on in June or July this year.

Although what I find more interesting at the moment is mutants now being an endangered species in the Marvel Universe. This fits with my idea that of all the analogies writers have attempted to draw between mutants and different minority groups, disability is the snuggest. Consider it as follows. Think about what will happen to disability culture if further advances in genetic research find permanent cures for the multitude of disabilities out there – the culture will be destroyed. We are already beginning to see it happen to the Deaf community with the introduction of the bionic ear…

This being the case, will the next move be to develop mutant reservations?

Will the Sentinels be placed on guard to protect those few remaining mutants from those who wish to speed up the extinction?

Will this all be set up by some villain as part of some more sinister agenda? That is, think about what reservations could be changed to serve as!

Has Wanda been possessed as some pawn to convince the world that mutants are a red-line species, so they let down their defences to be interred in what will become extermination camps, thinking it is for their own protection? Recall methods such as these were used to dupe minorities into camps during the Second World War!

Oh, and if you don’t go along with my earlier determination that Chris meant Mystique’s original form to be male, if Exiles is as others have suggested the playground he intends to play out those plots editorial nixed, in his recent CBR interview he refers to bringing in Mystique who has lived a life primarily as a male character, married to Irene Adler.

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[Post 308]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Mar 30, 2007 01:44 am
Title : Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Peeper got this mostly right. Chris Claremont has stated his Dark Wolverine Saga several times. One repercussion of this was Jean Grey would have secretly infilitrated the Hand, to rescue Wolverine who was brainwashed by them into their assassin. (This would have occured in the 290s of Uncanny X-Men. ) Jean would have allowed herself to be seduced by Logan, in order to get closer to him in her attempt to dig under all the Hand's spells. In so doing, her rapport with Scott Summers would have been broken forever.

However, Jean Grey would have not been succesful in breaking the Hand's twisted grip on Wolverine. Logan had to do that on his own. The conclusion to this tale would have been Logan and Jean would have become a Hot Couple. Once Logan was freed, emotionally and physically drained, he and Jean would have become lovers. And Cyclops would have had to struggle with the decisions made in the Dark Wolverine Saga. Claremont has said he NEVER would have had Scott and Jean marry. Because I suspect he planned for Jean and Logan to hook up instead. Whether it would have LASTED is another question.

I remember that.Huge amont of information,i often hear of people not really thinking that Jean and Logan could really be together.But when i ever re-read the proposed plot for the Dark Wolverine,i could imagine that something could come out of that.

As for them getting together,and having a relationship.I belive that Claremont could put the both of them together,and putting a good enough story for fans to accept that,and to make the relationship work.

Another question,when Claremont vists,or when he used to visit the forum.Did he ever check out this thread?What were his thoughts of us talking about his unused storylines?

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[Post 309]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 30, 2007 04:28 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Would you mind summarizing what he had planned, or how much you know? It sounds interesting.

Claremont had a whole lot planned. If he'd had his way, the mansion never would have been rebuilt. Charles Xavier would NOT have been crippled again in UXM #280 (what was the point? Since Charley was going to die.)

CC had two core arcs planned. Stretching from the 250s of Uncanny X-Men until #300. These were the Dark Wolverine Saga and Shadow King story.

1) I don't know if you've read his final years on UXM, but Wolverine's health was deteriorating rapidly after his beating from the Reavers in UXM #251. Claremont planned for Wolverine to die in battle with Lady Deathstrike. In X-Men #3, Deathstrike rips out Wolverine's heart and he perishes. He would stay dead for a year, and then reappear in Uncanny X-Men #294 as the Master Assassin for the Hand. The Hand would use him to bring down the Yoshida Clan, Mariko, Silver Samurai and other supporting characters from the solo Wolverine series would have taken part. Jean Grey would have infilitrated the Hand, as I posted before. A lot of stuff would have happened. If you read this thread, you'll find more in-depth info on this one.

2) Shadow King was slowly collecting his chess pieces to defeat the X-Men and feed off the energy of our society collapsing. Claremont planned for the SK to possess Moira McTaggart and the Muir Island Mutates. He wanted the SK's claws deep within the Hellfire Club, controlling Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost and Selene. Plus, he would have revealed that the Shadow King possessed Donald Pierce, and thus could manipulate the Reavers in Australia. He had his FBI agent Isaac Reisz maneuvering within the United States government, to possibly assassinate the President. AND he would have kidnapped Gateway and would attempt to break the Aboriginie, thus gaining control of Dreamtime which would have been devastating.

3) Along with the Shadow King schemes, Senator Robert Kelly would have run for President in 1992 on an anti-mutant platform. Some of this was later used for Dream's End, The X-Men would have protected Kelly but he STILL would have been assassinated--by humans, not mutants. This would have lead to the Days of Future Past nightmare/world that the mutants feared. And the Shadow King would have used it for his advantage, bringing the world to the brink of war, between humans and mutants. This epic would have lead to #300, and a final cataclysmic showdown with Xavier's mutants, against the Shadow King's mutants. Legion, Charles' son, would have been possessed by the SK, and Xavier would be forced to kill his own child to bring down the SK. Tessa would finally have been revealed as a spy for Charles Xavier and helped unravel the SK's control of the Hellfire Club.

4)In the final battle, Magneto would have joined the fray, and the Shadow King would have finally been stopped. Charles Xavier would perish however, bringing Gateway and a reluctant Magneto to replace him. Chris Claremont has said he wanted Charles Xavier to die because it was time for the X-Men to "grow up". Just as children must face the world alone once the parents pass away, now it was time for the X-men to face a dangerous world without the Founding Father there to guide the way. Could Xavier's Dream survive without the Dreamer? The #300s would have asked this question.

4) Gambit would have been revealed to be strongly connected to Mr. Sinister. Both were a bizarre byproduct of an 8-year-old child named Nathan who knew Scott Summers at the orphanage. He is a mutant, who ages 1 year for every 10. He creates Sinister and Gambit, in a child's eyes, to act as his surrogates in the adult world. Gambit was designed to infilitrate the X-Men and turn traitor against them. However, Remy would have fallen for Rogue at some point, and those romantic feelings would have distanced Gambit from Nathan/Mr. Sinister's grand scheme. Bringing Gambit his own identity and thus saving his soul from what Nathan planned to do.

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[Post 310]
Author : impulseucf
Date : Mar 30, 2007 04:41 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Holy crap. Damn shame that that wasn't to be. Instead we got 90s dreck. Le sigh.

Thanks for the recap!

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[Post 311]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 30, 2007 04:49 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Would you mind summarizing what he had planned, or how much you know? It sounds interesting.

If you want some in-depth capsules of his plans, just check out my first posts in this very thread. I go into real depth on Dark Wolverine, Shadow King sagas, Gambit/Mr. Sinister connection, mutants used as commodities, Australia, death of Charles Xavier, etc.

Luke, did you state previously why he left in 1991? I'd love to know. That was right when I was getting into comics, and some of his last issuers were my first.

Luke said the main reason why Claremont left. Jim Lee wanted to make himself a "name", and used X-Men to do it. Claremont has also stated that editor Bob Harras and he were arguing from the moment Bob Harras came aboard. Claremont wanted to move the X-Men forward, while Harras wanted to keep the book the same formula that we'd seen in the 1980s. Harras finally removed Claremont from plotting with #279. After 17 succesful years, Claremont deemed this a demotion of the highest order, and quit on the spot.


I just finished rereading Claremont's full run on the X-titles, and i must confess i am a fan of the Skrull Shi'ar storyline at the end(minus Xavier coming back to Earth), but it seems Chris didnt even want to write this as Jim Lee has plotting credits. Was this whole storyline editorially mandated, and did Chris ever say he actually wanted to go ahead with that storyline or was it just all completely Lee's ideas, and setting up for him to take over? Anyone?

I'm pretty sure it was a mixture of both Claremont and Jim Lee. Lee was gaining more power and co-plotting with CC. The WarSkrulls first shown here were in-line with Claremont's desire to create "new villains" and not rehash the old ones. HOWEVER, I think the changes to Magneto in UXM #274-275 were NOT AT ALL Claremont's plans, and he just did his best with what was being mandated to him by Lee/Harras.

Another question,when Claremont vists,or when he used to visit the forum.Did he ever check out this thread?What were his thoughts of us talking about his unused storylines?

Chris Claremont posted in this thread once. Part I of this thread. I don't think he pops in here much anymore. He seems to have given up on his old ideas.

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[Post 312]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Mar 30, 2007 03:30 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

X-editor, Andy Schmidt, suggested at the recent X-Panel at LA, that the ‘Books of Destiny’ will be touched on in June or July this year.

Wait. Were you there? I was at that panel! We have to start informing each other here in this Thread if we are going to be at specific Cons so we can arrange a gathering.

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[Post 313]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Mar 30, 2007 09:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I just got every issue of New mutants and am in the process of reading them all. I know in the previous thread some people briefly touched upon the New Mutants, but has Claremont ever stated where he wanted that series to go. And i know he eventually wanted to return after Simonson's run, but has he ever made any word on what he planned to do?

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[Post 314]
Author : Keoni
Date : Mar 31, 2007 02:41 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Any known plans for the individual characters in the New Mutants, including Legion?

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[Post 315]
Author : david r
Date : Mar 31, 2007 04:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have heard little of his future plans for New Mutants. I believe Sunspot was to have dangerous desires for power, which may have corrupted him. This was hinted to again in X-Treme X-Men.

Claremont has tried to bring Illyana Rasputin back. But his editor vetoed it. Whether the NMs would have graduated to full-fledged X-Men is an ongoing question. CC seems to have desired to keep them separated. Plus, I doubt Cable would EVER have joined the book if Claremont had remained.

@Keoni, I believe poor Legion was to perish in the Shadow King saga.

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[Post 316]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Apr 1, 2007 02:55 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Ok then,let me make another new question.Lets say that Claremont did not leave Uncanny X-Men in 1992,that ALL of these proposed storylines..the Dark Wolverine,Neo,Zaladane,Shadow King all was done.Im guessing this would be 1998-99,did Claremont have any plans for anything past these?Would Claremont be even more respected for his work on Uncanny than he is now?Is it possible to even imagine the Uncanny Universe with these storylines?

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[Post 317]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 1, 2007 03:46 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Ok then,let me make another new question.Lets say that Claremont did not leave Uncanny X-Men in 1992,that ALL of these proposed storylines..the Dark Wolverine,Neo,Zaladane,Shadow King all was done.Im guessing this would be 1998-99,did Claremont have any plans for anything past these?

The Neo and Zaladane material would NOT have happened in the early 90s. These ideas came later.

Chris Claremont has said his main plans were all headed for Uncanny X-Men #300. This should have seen print in March of 1993. So Dark Wolverine, Gambit and Shadow King stories would have finished at that time. Not 1998-99. Beyond #300, CC said he wasn't sure what direction he would head in. But he told Luke Heller he had plans for Destiny's Diaries in the early 90s, so perhaps that would have been a new direction. As well as after-effects to the tumultous events leading to #300. And Sage would have joined the team (but perhaps with a different codename?)

Would Claremont be even more respected for his work on Uncanny than he is now?

This is simple guesswork. I would say a resounding yes! I think we fans lost two huge masterpieces when Dark Wolverine and Shadow King epics were nixed. I really mean that. remember, Claremont was at the height of his creativity at that time. I think they would be ranked now as two of the most ambitious X-Men stories of them all.

Is it possible to even imagine the Uncanny Universe with these storylines?

That is an Uncanny Universe I wish I could read. Some of his changes were radical, but you know what? I think that is one reason people LOVED the X-Men. We never knew what was happening next? It had a real urgency to it, and suspense. I don't really see that anymore.

If Claremont had remained as core writer, the X-verse would be dramatically different. All these changes posted here would have happened, more changes would have happened. You would NEVER know what was going to happen next.

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[Post 318]
Author : Lord Morbid
Date : Apr 1, 2007 04:08 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Gambit introduced as a love interest is pretty lame, but the traitor angle would've been awesome.

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[Post 319]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 1, 2007 04:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The Neo and Zaladane material would NOT have happened in the early 90s. These ideas came later.

Chris Claremont has said his main plans were all headed for Uncanny X-Men #300. This should have seen print in March of 1993. So Dark Wolverine, Gambit and Shadow King stories would have finished at that time. Not 1998-99. Beyond #300, CC said he wasn't sure what direction he would head in. But he told Luke Heller he had plans for Destiny's Diaries in the early 90s, so perhaps that would have been a new direction. As well as after-effects to the tumultous events leading to #300. And Sage would have joined the team (but perhaps with a different codename?)

CC indeed did tell me and hint at other stuff about what his plans would have been if he was never forced off the X-books in 1991.

The Destiny's Diaries story was to be an ongoing lengthy story arc that would involve the group of X-Men that were on the run from Mr. Sinister and his Summers Clan after they would've taken over the X-Mansion.

CC also told me that he had always intended Tessa to be a spy for Xavier since her inception to the X-Universe.

Oh! And here's something juicy:

When I asked him about Sabretooth he told me this--

I had big plans for Sabretooth. The Sabretooth that has been around the Marvel Universe since I left is a pussycat to what I had planned. All the killing and torturing he has done is nothing compared to how truly vile and evil he really is and was going to be.

Another, Oh!

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet... but, CC also told me that when he briefly came back to UXM/NXM he had plans for Kitty to join the Neo and she would be instrumental into bringing them over to the Side Of Angels [I.E.: good guys]. Also, Colossus and Rogue were to become an item. The hint he threw out there was when the X-Men were in space and saving the shuttles and abandoned space station when Rogue touched Petey with bare skin and nothing happened. He stated he was indeed going to form a relationship between them but editorial got in the way [as usual ].

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[Post 320]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Apr 1, 2007 05:12 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Hmm, dunno how I feel about a Colossus/Rogue relationship, but it would have been cool to see where it went.

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[Post 321]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 1, 2007 05:40 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This is simple guesswork. I would say a resounding yes! I think we fans lost two huge masterpieces when Dark Wolverine and Shadow King epics were nixed. I really mean that. remember, Claremont was at the height of his creativity at that time. I think they would be ranked now as two of the most ambitious X-Men stories of them all.


Dark Wolverine would have sucked, no doubt about it. Two years of mind-controlled Wolverine figthing the X-men and sleeping with Jean Grey, yeah, that would have been awesome But i agree the Shadow King story, with Xavier dying in the end, would have been interesting, although i have some reservations, like Claremont clearing diving the two teams between the one of his favorites (Storm and Magneto's) and the one with mostly his least favorites (Cyclops' team).


Would Claremont be even more respected for his work on Uncanny than he is now?

I'm sure that, if CC's ideas went exactly as he wanted, no change at all, his first run would have been remebered less fondly, or people would have said "CC's run was great, but then he begun to run out of steam in the 90's". And most of his abandoned plots from before, such as Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix, or Sinister are bad too, IMO. The stories that saw print are much better than those which didn't.

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[Post 322]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 1, 2007 06:19 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Gambit introduced as a love interest is pretty lame, but the traitor angle would've been awesome.

I don't think Gambit was created as a love interest for Rogue. This would have happened simply because he joined X-Men and was close to her. The whole point seems that Remy's growing "emotions" would have made him a real human being, and more than a clone for Sinister's schemes.



When I asked him about Sabretooth he told me this--

That's really something. Did he ever state what dark deeds Sabretooth would have committed? This is interesting because 'Tooth really didn't do a whole lot in Claremont's first run.

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[Post 323]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 1, 2007 04:39 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I don't think Gambit was created as a love interest for Rogue. This would have happened simply because he joined X-Men and was close to her. The whole point seems that Remy's growing "emotions" would have made him a real human being, and more than a clone for Sinister's schemes.

IIRC, didn't CC mention here that his version of Gambit wasn't going to fall in love with Rogue or anyone on the team. He was just insinuating himself into the X-Men in order to more easily betray them later.

I believe the whole Rogue/Gambit love affair was all Jim Lee's and the editor's decisions.


That's really something. Did he ever state what dark deeds Sabretooth would have committed? This is interesting because 'Tooth really didn't do a whole lot in Claremont's first run.

We didn't go into specifics [mainly because he was being secretive], but he did state that his plans for Creed were only just starting and he was going to show a side of 'Tooth that no one has ever seen before. And, it wasn't a pretty sight to be seen.

He also stated that the 'Tooth that was hanging around with the Marauders during the whole Mutant Massacre thing wasn't even the real 'Tooth. It was just a clone created by Mr. Sinister. CC related this was the only way to explain why Sabretooth was acting so kitty-kat-like in those issues and later ones.

IIRC, and it has been 2 years since I last chatted with CC, he mentioned that the Marvel big wigs wouldn't let him go ahead with his plans for Sabretooth mainly because they would have to slap an Adult PG-13 Rating on the book.

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[Post 324]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 1, 2007 09:14 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

IIRC, didn't CC mention here that his version of Gambit wasn't going to fall in love with Rogue or anyone on the team. He was just insinuating himself into the X-Men in order to more easily betray them later.

I believe the whole Rogue/Gambit love affair was all Jim Lee's and the editor's decisions.

Yes, but wasn't Rogue going to fall for him? He was already flirting with her in X-men #3.




We didn't go into specifics [mainly because he was being secretive], but he did state that his plans for Creed were only just starting and he was going to show a side of 'Tooth that no one has ever seen before. And, it wasn't a pretty sight to be seen.

He also stated that the 'Tooth that was hanging around with the Marauders during the whole Mutant Massacre thing wasn't even the real 'Tooth. It was just a clone created by Mr. Sinister. CC related this was the only way to explain why Sabretooth was acting so kitty-kat-like in those issues and later ones.

IIRC, and it has been 2 years since I last chatted with CC, he mentioned that the Marvel big wigs wouldn't let him go ahead with his plans for Sabretooth mainly because they would have to slap an Adult PG-13 Rating on the book.

What Sabretooth was going to do that can be shocking or something that we would never expect him to do? I don't have any idea about how that would be possible.

And Sabretooth being a clone around the Mutant Massacre= MEH.

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[Post 325]
Author : Phil Hunn
Date : Apr 1, 2007 09:33 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I think we fans lost two huge masterpieces when Dark Wolverine and Shadow King epics were nixed.

I don't. After The Dark Phoenix Saga, two more X-Men succumbing to freakin' mind-control in a similar fashion would have been rather ho-hum.

Mind-control an X-Man once - awesome!
Mind-control an X-Man twice - okay, but not as good as the first time.
Mind-control an X-Man three times - oh, come on now, enough with the freakin' mind-control already!

[Marty P]

Part seven:

[Post 326]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 2, 2007 12:46 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The Shi'ar had legends of other people being tainted by the Phoenix even during DPS so that rules out Jean being the first Phoenix host even without the Excalibur stories.

… and then there’s the one about Selene as a former wielder of the Phoenix Force, which she was in possession of when she faced off against Kulan Gath.

As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to go for blondes more than any other hair-colored women.

A man after Marty4Magik’s heart;-) I hope your friend’s fiancé wasn’t!

So he built himself an agent in a sense, which was Mr. Sinister (inrtoduced by Claremont in Uncanny X-Men #221 in a story drawn by Marc Silvestri and Dan Green)," added the writer. "

The other interesting clue about Mr. Sinister is how the term “sinister” is the mark of bastardry in Heraldry, something I doubt Chris would have overlooked when naming the character. I think a lot of you would agree that Chris put a lot of thought into his characters.

This would seem to suggest young Nate was the bastard son of someone important to the X-Mythos, and used the pseudonym of ‘Mr. Sinister’ in an attempt to throw out a blatant clue to the mutants.

If, as Chris suggests, he had been born around the mid-century, which group of X-parents conceived him?

I’d earlier suggested that Mr. Sinister was intended as a twisted version of Fawcett’s Captain Marvel Sr. (ala Billy Batson from Alan Moore’s Twilight proposal).

The question that seems to have been overlooked since Chris dropped this hint is: How did young Nathan end up in the State Home for Foundlings in Sage, Nebraska to begin with?

With Chris’s later intended story of the Summers Clan “evicting” the X-Men and Xavier, I would posit that this was a plot Chris had planned much earlier for the mutant child, Nathan, as opposed to Stryfe, suggesting that there was some familial relationship there.

His being born mid-century would make it difficult for him to be the “Third Summers Brother” but was he the illegitimate child of Deborah Summers?!

Due to his stunted growth, perhaps Deborah (and her parents), fearful of the implications of having an obvious mutant child at the time, ends up placing him in the orphanage.

Upon remaining as a ward for year, he then begins usurping control, since regular society will never make a place for him as an adult.

It could be argued that he wasn’t necessarily related to the Summers Clan, but one would then need to effectively answer why, out of all the other orphans there, he would have such a mad-on for Cyclops and Alex.

He might have been Corsair’s older brother, and he might have wanted revenge on Chris because Philip or Deborah had abandoned him, and he felt he held rightful claim to the title of senior son of the Summers Clan.

Otherwise, why else would he influence Maddie to name her child Nathan? Again, to try and usurp Chris’s role!

Did he perhaps go so far as influencing D’Ken into abducting Kate and Chris, so he could get his grubby hands on Scott and Alex, and claim them as his own?

With Chris’s later revelation that Gambit was intended as another incarnation of the mutant child, Nathan, and the later belief that Remy was the Third Summers Brother, this provides neat closure to these particular mysteries.

He never did seem like a true hero anyways, and him being created just to be in a relationship with Rogue cheapens the character, I think.

It doesn’t cheapen the character at all. It works well from a psychological standpoint.

That is, whilst his not having a dependable, consistent parental figure screwed him up, he would have noted that whilst this was also the case for Rogue, who was not only abandoned but had Mystique for a parental figure, one needn’t let it control their destiny.

As Gambit, he would have gotten to model off of Rogue and come to realise that one can still change with exposure to the right environment, like that of the nurturing one of Xavier’s School.

The other interesting thing about this match-up is Mastermind’s manipulation – under the Shadow King’s influence – of events leading to Rogue’s leaving the Brotherhood and heading for Xavier’s School might factor in another element.

Then, if the Shadow King intended Rogue to become a sleeper he would later use to destroy the school from within, this makes things even more interesting, particularly when it appeared in Gambit’s initial appearance that he was attempting to undermine the Shadow King’s plans (cf. UXM #267).

Was Gambit aware of the Shadow King’s plans for Rogue, and perhaps ingratiated himself into the team to not necessarily betray the team from within, but to either prevent Rogue’s shadowy destiny, or steal her for himself to use as a weapon against the team?!

As for Madelyne, the reason given that any of the X-Men didn't notice anything different and/or wrong with her (Wolverine in particular), was that Mr. Sinister was incredibly good with his cloning process.

Mr. Sinister was indeed powerful, even moreso on the astral plane, even defeating Psylocke there (cf. UXM #234), something not even the Shadow King was capable of doing. He even fooled Wolverine’s enhanced senses, since although Logan acknowledged something familiar about Mr. Sinister, he still couldn’t quite place what it was (cf. X-Factor #39).

CC… had the X-men and Lilandra stunned by how much Maddie looked like Jean, but there isn't a single indication that there is something wrong.

I don’t know why it is so hard for readers to believe Chris’s original stated intention for Maddie. Upon moving to high school, my teachers were stunned by how much I looked like another student there one year older than me, that had absolutely no biological relationship to me – in effect my doppelganger. People still have trouble when paging through my old school yearbooks figuring out which class photos are mine and which ones are his.

What did he have in store for the relationship between Jean and Logan?Sure,there might have been nothing there.But im just wondering if Claremont had any plans for the two of them.

I’ve always suspected that Rachel was what he intended between the pair. But that’s just me;-)

Claremont said flatly in Luke Heller's interview, he planned to stay on X-Men until 2015, and beyond.

Where is this interview available? Is there a link for it?

Has anyone considered that the motive behind Madelyne Pryor’s seduction of Havok (cf. Uncanny #239) was to conceive his child?

Might another Goblin child be out there somewhere… or perhaps left behind in Limbo?

Wait. Were you there? I was at that panel! We have to start informing each other here in this Thread if we are going to be at specific Cons so we can arrange a gathering.

No, I live in Australia, and doubt very much I will ever make it to the States. Being blind, I would be pretty reluctant to go to a place where I have not undergone orientation and mobility training. I’d probably need to ensure I had people to ‘hang’ with for the duration of the trip.

The Destiny's Diaries story was to be an ongoing lengthy story arc that would involve the group of X-Men that were on the run from Mr. Sinister and his Summers Clan after they would've taken over the X-Mansion.

I think I have an open line to Mr. Claremont’s mind, since I proposed earlier on this thread that his story about the Stryfe taking over the Mansion and forming a new X-Men out of the Summers Clan, was originally going to be initiated by Mr. Sinister.

An interesting clue about Mr. Sinister is how the term “sinister” is the mark of bastardry in Heraldry, something I doubt Chris would have overlooked when titling the character (he did tend to put a lot of thought into his characters).

This would imply that young Nate was the bastard son of someone important to the X-Mythos, and he used the pseudonym of ‘Mr. Sinister’ in an attempt to blatantly mock the mutants.

If, as Chris suggests, he had been born around the mid-century, which group of X-parents conceived him?

I’d suggest that Mr. Sinister was intended as Alan Moore’s twisted version of Fawcett’s Captain Marvel Sr., Billy Batson, from his Twilight proposal.

The question that seems to have been overlooked since Chris dropped this hint is: How did young Nathan end up in the State Home for Foundlings in Sage, Nebraska to begin with?

With Chris’s later intended story of the Summers Clan “evicting” the X-Men and Xavier, I would argue that this was a plot Chris had planned much earlier for the mutant child, Nathan – as opposed to Stryfe – suggesting that there was some familial relationship there.

His being born mid-century would make it difficult for him to be the “Third Summers Brother” but was he the illegitimate child of Deborah Summers?!

Due to his stunted growth, perhaps Deborah (and her parents), fearful of the implications of having an obvious mutant child during that particular era, ends up placing young Nate in the orphanage. Upon remaining as a ward for years, he then begins usurping control, since regular society will never make a place for him as an adult.

It could be argued that he wasn’t necessarily related to the Summers Clan, but one would then need to effectively answer why, out of all the other orphans there, he would have such a mad-on for Cyclops and Alex.

He might have been Corsair’s older brother, and he might have wanted revenge on Chris for Philip or Deborah’s abandonment of him – and felt he held rightful claim to the title of senior son of the Summers Clan.

Otherwise, why else would he influence Maddie to name her child Nathan, other than trying to usurp Chris’s role?!

Did he perhaps go so far as influencing D’Ken into abducting Kate and Chris, so he could get his grubby hands on Scott and Alex, and claim them as his own, creating a substitute family because he could not father his own children?

With Chris’s later revelation that Gambit was intended as another incarnation of the mutant child, Nathan, and the later belief that Remy was the Third Summers Brother, this provides neat closure to these particular mysteries.

Then, if the Shadow King intended Rogue to become a sleeper he would later use to destroy the school from within, this makes things even more interesting, particularly when it appeared from Gambit’s initial appearance that he was attempting to undermine the Shadow King’s plans (cf. UXM #267).

Was Gambit aware of the Shadow King’s plans for Rogue, and perhaps ingratiated himself into the team to either prevent Rogue’s shadowy destiny, or steal her for himself to use as his replacement for Polaris, whom the Shadow King had stolen from him for his own ends in the lead-up to the Shadow King Saga?

If this was Chris’s intention, I’d imagine he’d have turned the tables at the last minute, having Rogue’s positive influence turn Gambit to the side of the angels. That is, whilst not having a dependable, consistent parental figure screwed Nate up, he would have noted that whilst this was also the case for Rogue – who was not only abandoned but had Mystique for a parental figure – she hadn’t let it control her destiny, but had created a new life for herself within the team as a hero.

So when the time comes for the Shadow King to claim her and destroy the team, Gambit would perhaps become their staunchest ally.

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[Post 327]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 2, 2007 03:00 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

jrnewto, part of your post appears to be a duplication of an earlier part.

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[Post 328]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 2, 2007 03:55 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

We didn't go into specifics [mainly because he was being secretive], but he did state that his plans for Creed were only just starting and he was going to show a side of 'Tooth that no one has ever seen before. And, it wasn't a pretty sight to be seen.



This sounds cool. It appears Claremont came up with a whole story for Sabretooth that was only getting started. I would have loved to see it.

I recall Claremont saying in the late 90s, that his Wolverine #125-128 story was actually intended as a Sabretooth mini-series. It should have been 6 issues long, and more fleshed out. Creed would have played a major role, and the Wolvie vs. X-Men battle in #128 was meant to be much longer and more exciting.



With Chris’s later intended story of the Summers Clan “evicting” the X-Men and Xavier, I would posit that this was a plot Chris had planned much earlier for the mutant child, Nathan, as opposed to Stryfe, suggesting that there was some familial relationship there.

I agree and think he may have had the "outline" of this Summers rebellion in the 90s. But instead of Stryfe, the villain would have been Mr. Sinister. Gambit playing a role as traitor.

His being born mid-century would make it difficult for him to be the “Third Summers Brother” but was he the illegitimate child of Deborah Summers?!

Interesting idea.

It could be argued that he wasn’t necessarily related to the Summers Clan, but one would then need to effectively answer why, out of all the other orphans there, he would have such a mad-on for Cyclops and Alex.

Well, also consider that Sinister seemed very interested in the Summers clan and their DNA. If Nathan the mutant child was pulling Sinister's strings, then Nathan wanted Summers genetic code for some reason. What could it have been?

As Gambit, he would have gotten to model off of Rogue and come to realise that one can still change with exposure to the right environment, like that of the nurturing one of Xavier’s School.

Exactly, another example of a villain being "humanized". Except Gambit being a clone, is a virtual clean slate. He has been "programmed" by Sinister for his traitorous role. And Rogue's love and romance would have brought about new feelings in Remy that might have usurped his programming by Nathan/Sinister.

Then, if the Shadow King intended Rogue to become a sleeper he would later use to destroy the school from within, this makes things even more interesting, particularly when it appeared in Gambit’s initial appearance that he was attempting to undermine the Shadow King’s plans (cf. UXM #267).

So Claremont may have inserted Gambit at that exact moment (to rescue Storm from the Shadow King in UXM #266) on purpose. That Sinister was maneuvering Gambit to STOP the SK's schemes. I never would have considered that. But could CC really have had such a deep plot going on?

Where is this interview available? Is there a link for it?

Yes. Our own Luke Heller was gracious enough to provide a link in this thread, post #282.

Has anyone considered that the motive behind Madelyne Pryor’s seduction of Havok (cf. Uncanny #239) was to conceive his child?

I always thought that seduction scene seemed manipulative on Madelyne Pryor's part.

No, I live in Australia, and doubt very much I will ever make it to the States. Being blind, I would be pretty reluctant to go to a place where I have not undergone orientation and mobility training. I’d probably need to ensure I had people to ‘hang’ with for the duration of the trip.

If you ever come by Sacramento, California, I'd be willing to help you and "hang".

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[Post 329]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 2, 2007 04:20 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, but wasn't Rogue going to fall for him? He was already flirting with her in X-men #3.

Jim Lee was already plotting out the stories at that point. CC mentioned in that interview I linked earlier that he rushed this arc because he was basically being forced off the book and those were his words but not his plotline.

And Sabretooth being a clone around the Mutant Massacre= MEH.

All of Mr. Sinister's men/women were clones at one point. That was Sinister's schtick.

This sounds cool. It appears Claremont came up with a whole story for Sabretooth that was only getting started. I would have loved to see it.

I think CC had a 'Tooth history all planned out when he created him. Wasn't it Claremont who wrote the PM/IF comic where 'Tooth first appeared??

Yes. Our own Luke Heller was gracious enough to provide a link in this thread, post #282.

I can't take the credit for that. I found that interview. But, thanks for the credit!

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[Post 330]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 2, 2007 05:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

All of Mr. Sinister's men/women were clones at one point. That was Sinister's schtick.


Actually, all the Marauders but Sabretooth are clones, but clones in the same sense as Xavier, same mind on a different body. It doesn't see what CC intended, but i maybe wrong.


I don’t know why it is so hard for readers to believe Chris’s original stated intention for Maddie. Upon moving to high school, my teachers were stunned by how much I looked like another student there one year older than me, that had absolutely no biological relationship to me – in effect my doppelganger. People still have trouble when paging through my old school yearbooks figuring out which class photos are mine and which ones are his.

But the problem is not so much that they looked exactly like each other, but Scott marrying her, after only a few issues and a couple of months, and we being supposed to believe that it was because of whom Madelyne was and the fact she looked just like Jean had nothing to do with it, and that none of the X-men would've thought the same as every reader thought about the relationship.

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[Post 331]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 2, 2007 12:05 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, all the Marauders but Sabretooth are clones, but clones in the same sense as Xavier, same mind on a different body. It doesn't see what CC intended, but i maybe wrong.
It was revealed in X-men #.....I think 24, that Sabretooth has indeed been cloned (Beast, Gambit and Psylocke I think infiltrated Sinister's base and fought a half-ready clone of Sabes).

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[Post 332]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 2, 2007 05:06 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Originally posted by perdid:

"she's not much of a character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
actually for me, no other x-men is as 3 dimentional as jean , she always seem so alive to me.She is before all human! she is'nt a pseudo african goddess,
Jean is quite a psudo-goddess as well -- that's why she died in the first place. She is frequently described as a human who was given the power of a god. This is why she couldn't take it -- because she wasn't a real god.

Originally posted by Alpha man:

Yeah, right, because the Hellions getting killed by a crazy-time traveler with Sentinels from the future while she was in a coma is definitively her fault
Of course. Who cares if Emma Frost's in a coma or not, who else is the teacher for the Hellions?? They shouldn't need her around, or even alive, to win any fights. The Hellions have existed for years in the X-Books -- the New Mutants progressed while they didn't. Over the years, we the readers, should have seen the Hellions progress. They really didn't. If Emma kept the Hellions around to somehow boost her ego into thinking she was a good teacher, I'll never know.

The Hellions couldn't fight, and they died because of it. IMO the Hellions also got killed when the creators at the time got bored with them -- and why not?

As a teacher, Emma Frost was incompetent.

Originally posted by Alpha man:

That happens because Bishop is a boring character, whom after his "traitor" storyline was told, had no purpose of existing anymore, and did nothing until he became a cop and became Stark's mutant lapdog.
IMO, Bishop is no more or less boring than any other character(s) -- like the original five X-Men, for instance -- and he's yet another X-Character who hasn't been treated well in the 1990's, certainly turning a bit stagnant since John Byrne left his short tenure on UXM. During XXM, Chris Claremont had a chance to make Bishop great, but -- strangely and sadly -- Bishop intimidated Mr. Claremont, IMO like he intimidates most people.

Bishop was always more than what you describe, though. Chris Claremont turned Bishop into a "cop" and the fact that Bishop is in the situation he's currently in really makes no sense to me. At the same time I freely admit that Bishop was never the only character treated poorly during the 1990's -- and is still poorly treated.

Originally posted by Alpha man:

Considering that Scott has just expelled Xavier away from the mansion, and even before called him on his ******** more than most X-men, the idea has no truth at all, is just Onslaught being Onslaught.
From what I recall in X-MEN #57, Valerie Cooper arrived to cart Xavier off to jail. Wolverine and Bishop tried to intervene, but in the end, Xavier acquiesed and went into custody.

Originally posted by Alpha man:

Iceman and Beast don't have tragic backgrounds. Archangel's tragic story came when he was a well estabilished character and was not a background story, and Jean's only in DPS. And tell me which character at Marvel did not had either a power-up since it's creation, or a tragic background and/or story created, or both? If you're saying that all the O5 are only relevant because of them, then Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Rogue, Bishop, etc, are all irrelevant except by their power-ups or tragic stories?

(snipped)

Only the fact that they were the originals alone made them relevant, and combined with the fact that most (many would say all) are already interesting characters since the beginning, or became eventually, have and had important positions in X-men, and were integral part of several great stories, makes them interesting already.What you state really doesn't disprove my point. I don't care if or when the powerups happened to the original five X-Men, the circumstances behind them, etc. IMO, it's not a shock that Joe Kelly wished to retire them all and keep on going -- it also doens't surprise me that Joe Kelly was let go from the X-Men because of it. And I'm certainly not concerned with too many characters outside of the X-Men Universe.

The Phoenix was the only storyline that really ever made Jean Grey relevant. The other original X-Men were also given tragedies and other dramas to complicate their lives:

Iceman was given a tragic or dramatic background by creating a bigoted father for him in the 1990's; well before that he was given a powerup via Loki in the 1980's and then other inconsisted powerups in the 1990's. Also, there were/still are rumors that Iceman was gay (and that his father hated him because of that), thus adding drama to a character previously not featured as such.

Beast was given various powerups and decreases in power since his transformation to a real beast in the 1970's. Also the drama behind his role in trying to cure the Legacy Virus gave him tragedy in his character.

Cyclops was certainly given a great deal of tragedy behind his parent's assumed death, his life in an orphanage with Nathan, the sad details of the people who wished to adopt him, etc. (featured in CLASSIC X-MEN). From what I've ever read of Cyclops, perhaps one of the biggest powerups/tragedies was his transformation into Apocalypse.

With Angel, the entire Archangel storyline with its powerups of course gave him tragedy, along with the death of Candy Southern, and Cameron Hodge turning against him.

Originally posted by Luke Heller:

Actually, the real reason is that Maddie was never meant to be a clone of Jean. Kurt Busiek screwed everything up by coming up with the lame idea to resurrect Jean Grey and put her on X-Factor when it first came out. Oh, I understand that. That's why I stated what I did -- that was the reason (really the excuse) given. In retrospect, I find it a very...bold idea to even create a character like Madelyne in the first place given the behind the scenes conflicts with the Dark Phoenix Saga.

To Mr. Sinister and others, re. The Untold Origin of Gambit:

In retrospect, I really don't think this was a good storyline, with the whole "Mr. Sinister as Gambit" idea. After everything Gambit went through with Storm, giving her back a happy childhood in UXM #267...just to see him turned into Mr. Sinister or something, really seems strange to me. It cheapens Gambit's actions. IMO, I liked Gambit and young Storm as a team better than Wolverine and Jubilee. Gambit as an unstoppable anti-hero, mysterious, who did what he wanted, was the best.

I think Gambit got destroyed in the 1990's, or in the least, severely damaged by stagnant repetitive stories and the horrid idea that love can make one boring and weak, which is what seems to have happened with both Gambit and Rogue's relationship. That relationship shouldn't have lasted anyway, since Gambit is unfaithful as a rule -- Jim Lee certainly planned that as well. But it's certainly very laughable at how many fans react towards Gambit making advances towards Rogue, since many of these fans want Rogue for themselves!!

Gambit wore hot pink, carried a handbag, and still got the women. No wonder so many internet fans hated him!!!

-- DN

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[Post 333]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 2, 2007 06:36 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Of course. Who cares if Emma Frost's in a coma or not, who else is the teacher for the Hellions?? They shouldn't need her around, or even alive, to win any fights. The Hellions have existed for years in the X-Books -- the New Mutants progressed while they didn't. Over the years, we the readers, should have seen the Hellions progress. They really didn't. If Emma kept the Hellions around to somehow boost her ego into thinking she was a good teacher, I'll never know.
The Hellions couldn't fight, and they died because of it. IMO the Hellions also got killed when the creators at the time got bored with them -- and why not?

As a teacher, Emma Frost was incompetent.


That's just ridiculous. You're honestly suggesting that a group of teenagers should defeat Sentinels from the future so powerful that they were able to defeat The Fantastic Four, all the Avengers and the X-men, killing every single metahuman on Earth? And Emma should have prepared the Hellions for killer Sentinels from the future? Yeah, that's a very reasonable suggestion

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[Post 334]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Apr 2, 2007 09:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

…
It doesn’t cheapen the character at all. It works well from a psychological standpoint.

That is, whilst his not having a dependable, consistent parental figure screwed him up, he would have noted that whilst this was also the case for Rogue, who was not only abandoned but had Mystique for a parental figure, one needn’t let it control their destiny.

As Gambit, he would have gotten to model off of Rogue and come to realise that one can still change with exposure to the right environment, like that of the nurturing one of Xavier’s School..


jrnewtwo, you again amaze me with your ideas, the Sinister vs Shadow King angle is something i really like, and can definetly see happening. I also really like the comparisons you pointed out between little Nathan and Rogue, and why exactly they'd gravitate together, and his Gambit "clone" eventually seeing that he could chnage. I think that is a very cool way to write that story. However, that is not the story that saw print, and what we were left with instead, Gambit and Rogue's constant on again off again will they won't they relationship really took down Gambit as a character. When he first showed up he was so smooth, so suave, and skilled at nearly everything, he was definetly someone to get excited about. He was capable of nearly anything(freeing himself from Hodge, fighting Shadow King,beating Wolverine(albeit a very weak Wolvie), escaping Warskrulls), and he just kept surprising the X-Men more and more. Then he flirts with Rogue and all the times afterwards is nearly defined by his feelings toward her, and he immediately is crushed as a character. I should rephrase my previous statement about that cheapening Gambit as a character. Claremont's version of their relationship would've been great, would've actually made sense, and worked to add more to the plots and storyarcs as well as further progress the characters. Lee's and future writer's version of their relationship just butchered him as a character. It was no longer Gambit, awesome suave, super intriguing man of mystery, it was Gambit-Rogues's boyfriend.....maybe, for nearly 10 years!!!! It completely and absolutely ruined this great character CC made. Which, i know has been the case for the past 15 years anyways. -Sigh-

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[Post 335]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 3, 2007 03:59 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Has anyone ever noticed a strong physical similarity between the Brood and the N'Garai? One race lives in deep space, the other in a different dimension. But I wonder if they were ever planned to be brethren, because they share MANY similiar physical traits.

Another thought: eXiles #92 shows Blink with a tattoo over her right eye, courtesy of the Hand. I found it very striking and wonder if such a tattoo was planned by Claremont for Wolverine as Master Assassin for the Hand in UXM #294-300.

Almost like a brand, to illustrate their possession of Logan.

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[Post 336]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 3, 2007 07:17 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Has anyone ever noticed a strong physical similarity between the Brood and the N'Garai? One race lives in deep space, the other in a different dimension. But I wonder if they were ever planned to be brethren, because they share MANY similiar physical traits.

I'm going to say no relationship was ever planned originally by CC.

The Brood were originally supposed to be the Aliens from the Alien movies. Marvel was unable to procure the rights to use their name/images so CC did the next best thing: he made his own-- but stronger and more intelligent and more evil.

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[Post 337]
Author : peeper
Date : Apr 4, 2007 04:57 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The N'Garai always bugged me. Mostly because they're called "demons", but they can be killed by conventional means. I hate that. The whole point about "demons" to me, is that they're beyond this world and you CAN'T kill them by just slicing and dicing and electrocuting. That's what makes them demons, that's what makes them fearsome. Without that aspect, they might as well just be regular monsters or henchmen. Logan being able to defeat the N'Garai just because he can chop them up is ridiculous. The only message it sends is "hey kids, guess what, enough violence solves everything". It's dull and unimaginative.

I want demons who get into your very soul, who prey on your every weakness. Defeating them should be as much of an inner struggle as an outer one. And you shouldn't leave unscathed, ever. A demon battle should always leave you shaken to your very core, or there's no point. Marvel demons are such a joke.*sigh*

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[Post 338]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 4, 2007 05:13 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The N'Garai always bugged me. Mostly because they're called "demons", but they can be killed by conventional means. I hate that. The whole point about "demons" to me, is that they're beyond this world and you CAN'T kill them by just slicing and dicing and electrocuting. That's what makes them demons, that's what makes them fearsome. Without that aspect, they might as well just be regular monsters or henchmen. Logan being able to defeat the N'Garai just because he can chop them up is ridiculous. The only message it sends is "hey kids, guess what, enough violence solves everything". It's dull and unimaginative.

I want demons who get into your very soul, who prey on your every weakness. Defeating them should be as much of an inner struggle as an outer one. And you shouldn't leave unscathed, ever. A demon battle should always leave you shaken to your very core, or there's no point. Marvel demons are such a joke.*sigh*

I disagree.

Even in Advanced Dungeon & Dragons demons and devils were easy to dispatch on the mortal plane. But, only their physical bodies perished. Their immortal souls went back to their home plane of existence and after a time they were able to come back to the mortal world again.

Also, demon and devil possession are not commonplace. It takes awhile for them to worm themselves into a human's body/soul. It's not as easy as it seems. Look at all the horror movies and such. Possessions take a bit to pull off and even then the devil/demon is never truly in control until weeks later. And, that is assuming no one tries to exorcise them in the meantime.

Demons and devils don't have easy access to our world. All the comics, novels, movies and games I've experienced have shown me that.

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[Post 339]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Apr 4, 2007 08:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In Uncanny #110 Warhawk (Mitchell Tanner) was later revealed to have been working for the Hellfire Club, as seen in X-Men (1st series) #129. He planted a bugging device which they used to spy on the X-Men for many months to come. while doing this, he is seemingly psychically attacked and forced to do so, and refers to this psychic as master. To me, it seems this person was meant to be the Shadow King, yet again showing that he was the true master of the Hellfire Club. I'm not sure if any of this was posted yet, but this can easily be seen as evidence that CC did in fact have the Shadow King, or the prototype or idea for him in charge of the Hellfire Club. What does everyone have to say about this?

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[Post 340]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 5, 2007 03:25 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

VERY interesting, Mr. Sinister. I had forgotten that completely. Claremont/Byrne created the Shadow King just a few issues after UXM #110, so it possibly could have been in their plans already.

But did Claremont plan for the SK to be the "hidden king" of the Hellfire Club way back then? It would not surprise me if CC would have mentioned #110 and Warhawk at some later point, and tied the two together. CC sure got interested in the SK in his later years.

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[Post 341]
Author : peeper
Date : Apr 5, 2007 04:19 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I disagree.

Even in Advanced Dungeon & Dragons demons and devils were easy to dispatch on the mortal plane. But, only their physical bodies perished. Their immortal souls went back to their home plane of existence and after a time they were able to come back to the mortal world again.

Also, demon and devil possession are not commonplace. It takes awhile for them to worm themselves into a human's body/soul. It's not as easy as it seems. Look at all the horror movies and such. Possessions take a bit to pull off and even then the devil/demon is never truly in control until weeks later. And, that is assuming no one tries to exorcise them in the meantime.

Demons and devils don't have easy access to our world. All the comics, novels, movies and games I've experienced have shown me that.

How do movie standards and game standards apply to Marvel? They have their own universe and can make their own standards. Isn't the magical part of Marvel pretty ill-defined as it is?
And the N'Garai don't even possess people and have no immortal souls that I've seen. They're just regular monsters.

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[Post 342]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 5, 2007 10:03 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

VERY interesting, Mr. Sinister. I had forgotten that completely. Claremont/Byrne created the Shadow King just a few issues after UXM #110, so it possibly could have been in their plans already.

But did Claremont plan for the SK to be the "hidden king" of the Hellfire Club way back then? It would not surprise me if CC would have mentioned #110 and Warhawk at some later point, and tied the two together. CC sure got interested in the SK in his later years.

I don't know if CC had always intended the SK to be behind the Hellfire Club, but I do know that in XXM Bogan was originally supposed to be the SK. For whatever reasons, CC was told he couldn't use the SK in this plotline so he created Bogan instead.

And the N'Garai don't even possess people and have no immortal souls that I've seen. They're just regular monsters.

Correct. That why I was basically saying [in my rather long-winded way] that they are just regular magikal beasties and Wolverine and the rest of the X-Men would have no problem fighting them as they do the Brood.

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[Post 343]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 6, 2007 08:06 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I don't know if CC had always intended the SK to be behind the Hellfire Club, but I do know that in XXM Bogan was originally supposed to be the SK. For whatever reasons, CC was told he couldn't use the SK in this plotline so he created Bogan instead.
I think that was pretty clear back then, and most in the X-treme thread knew it was supposed to be the SK.

The thing I would like to know is why Claremont couldn't use the Shadow King. He wasn't appearing/going to appear anywhere else, so I just don't get why he couldn't just use the SK.
They allow Bogan, but say no to the Shadow King? They are practically the same, so I just don't get it.

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[Post 344]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Apr 6, 2007 08:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

At the bottom of this page is the detailed original plans for the Mutant Massacre as talked about in the previous thread. Pretty exciting, I think. I would've loved to have seen this happen with Jim Jaspers and the Fury/Nimrod rather than just the Morlocks dying.

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[Post 345]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 6, 2007 09:21 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

......that's some cool info there.

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[Post 346]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 6, 2007 09:28 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To Alpha man, re. Emma Frost's teaching the Hellions:

IMO, the New Mutants would have fared better against the Sentinels (who did indeed hail from the Days of Future Past), since they evolved as warriors. Even the X-Men of this era fared better. The Hellions did not and Emma Frost was their teacher; although they probably had an infinite amount of money at their disposal, they were stagnant, and their misfortune was the result.

The Hellions should have been like the Upstarts (or the Wildboys?), especially since they were linked to the Hellfire Club via Emma Frost.

To jrnewto and Mr. Sinister, re. Gambit:

From what I recall, the plot was to have Gambit become Mr. Sinister, and to have him betray the X-Men. Jim Lee, Gambit's creator, certainly intended for Gambit to be a traitor. And IMO, after all the books Gambit would have been in up to that time -- saving Storm and the X-Men on many occasions, when he wasn't even in the books for a year at that point -- why then show him as anything other than a brand new character?

But if Gambit had to be another character in disguise, Longshot would have made a much better choice. It would even make sense regarding his romance with Rogue, since Rogue was shown as rivaling with Dazzler for Longshot, anyway.

Mr. Sinister was supposed to be dead at that point in X-Books. If he's to return to the X-Books, just have him return like everyone else does. Why have him show up like a hero, and then make him "a child in a man's body"? That seems...strange.

Originally posted by Mr. Sinister:

Lee's and future writer's version of their relationship just butchered him as a character.

Jim Lee created Gambit, and I know what happened to Gambit occured with Bishop as well -- the vacuum created by the X-Odus made them stale characters for many years. I'm not sure why you claim Jim Lee "butchered" Gambit as a character -- from what I read, it was the opposite, until Mr. Lee left Marvel to form Image. If anything, perhaps if Jim Lee stayed at Marvel longer, Gambit would act differently in comics. I blame the "future writers" more than anything.

As an aside (perhaos), I occasionally read about how some fans feel that Jim Lee basically helped to get Chris Claremont to leave or get fired from Marvel. And having read this thread and Claremont's Abandoned Plots I, I as a fan now freely admit to not really knowing what happened behind the scenes in these events, much less those involving the Phoenix Saga!

It's very obvious that Jim Lee did not stay long with Marvel after Mr. Claremont left or was fired from Marvel, so if Mr. Lee was that interested in getting rid of him, why not stay with the X-Men for a longer period of time? Why did Jim Lee use a title from one of Chris Claremont's novels on the book the Beast was reading in his Impel X-Men card illustrations? And why not very long afterwards, use one of Chris Claremont's characters, the Huntsman, in Jim Lee's own book, WILDCATS published by the creator-owned Image? And Mr. Claremont wrote those books!!

Other questions:

1. How come the Hellfire Club wanted to use Jean Grey as their Phoenix avatar/Black Queen when (as jrnewto has stated) their other Black Queen, Selene was already a previous host for the Phoenix? What was the HC's relationship with Selene that they didn't just use her, instead?

And a most ancient question:

2. How come with their Shi'ar technology, the X-Men can't repair Xavier's inability to walk, control Rogue's powers, or even fix Stevie Hunter's knee injury?? On a larger scale, epecially with Forge around, why can't the technology of the Danger Room be used to solve world hunger, (ie. act like a replicator in Star Trek, etc.)?

2a. How come with his degree in psychology, Charles Xavier can't treat Storm for her claustrophobia? If Rogue's power is partially psychological in nature, the same question applies to her, with regards to her powers.

3. IMO, how come CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS 2 seems like a promo story for X-MEN: THE END?

4. Nearly everyone knows of the Dark Wolverine story, but was there to be any stories featuring Wolverine in space, with ties to Landau, Luckman and Lake? UXM #276 showed Wolverine quite as ease with interacting with the alien populace, getting into bar fights, knowing at least some alien cultures, etc. These issues featured not very long after UXM #258, showing Wolverine and Rose Wu in a futuristic and perhaps alien, setting.

5. Were there any other stories planned with Cadre K?


-- DN

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[Post 347]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 7, 2007 01:05 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I occasionally read about how some fans feel that Jim Lee basically helped to get Chris Claremont to leave or get fired from Marvel.
Directly, that is indeed crap. \
Indirectly, it is true. Jim Lee was offered more power in regards to the writing of the book, and he took it (can you really blame the guy for that? IMHO, not).
Because CC had less to say what was in the book he wrote, he left.

And CC quit, he wasn't fired.

It's very obvious that Jim Lee did not stay long with Marvel after Mr. Claremont left or was fired from Marvel, so if Mr. Lee was that interested in getting rid of him, why not stay with the X-Men for a longer period of time?
Simple: Image would make him more $$$, and he had the chance to make something totally owned by himself.
Why did Jim Lee use a title from one of Chris Claremont's novels on the book the Beast was reading in his Impel X-Men card illustrations?
See my answer above. And, those cards could have been made some time before.

And why not very long afterwards, use one of Chris Claremont's characters, the Huntsman, in Jim Lee's own book, [b]WILDCATS published by the creator-owned Image? And Mr. Claremont wrote those books!!
Again, see above.

I really don't think Lee and Claremont were on bad terms with each other.
Indeed, why else work together again.


Although, Claremont also worked under Bob Harras again when Harras was editor of CC's Gen13.....



2. How come with their Shi'ar technology, the X-Men can't repair Xavier's inability to walk, control Rogue's powers, or even fix Stevie Hunter's knee injury?? On a larger scale, epecially with Forge around, why can't the technology of the Danger Room be used to solve world hunger, (ie. act like a replicator in Star Trek, etc.)?
The same reason Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or any other Marvel U Genius haven't: It would make a very boring read if everything was alright in the Marvel U!

2a. How come with his degree in psychology, Charles Xavier can't treat Storm for her claustrophobia?
It's not that easy to 'cure' someone who is afraid of something like that.
Besides, it gives Storm a weak-spot!

If Rogue's power is partially psychological in nature, the same question applies to her, with regards to her powers.
Because Rogue absorbed Ms Marvel's psyche completely.

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[Post 348]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 7, 2007 01:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Jim Lee created Gambit...

Actually, Gambit was created by Claremont and Mike Collins in UXM #266.

As an aside (perhaps), I occasionally read about how some fans feel that Jim Lee basically helped to get Chris Claremont to leave or get fired from Marvel. And having read this thread and Claremont's Abandoned Plots I, I as a fan now freely admit to not really knowing what happened behind the scenes in these events, much less those involving the Phoenix Saga!

It's very obvious that Jim Lee did not stay long with Marvel after Mr. Claremont left or was fired from Marvel, so if Mr. Lee was that interested in getting rid of him, why not stay with the X-Men for a longer period of time? Why did Jim Lee use a title from one of Chris Claremont's novels on the book the Beast was reading in his Impel X-Men card illustrations? And why not very long afterwards, use one of Chris Claremont's characters, the Huntsman, in Jim Lee's own book, WILDCATS published by the creator-owned Image? And Mr. Claremont wrote those books!!

Jim Lee had nothing to do with CC leaving/being fired from the X-Books in 1991. CC and Lee have both already stated on a few occassions that they loved working with each other and had a synch with their books.

The reason CC [and a few writers at Marvel back then] quit was because during the 1990's Marvel adopted a new policy that took advantage of the high-artistic talent that popped up. Readers were buying any book that had great art. Courteous of the following: Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri, Whilce Portacio, Rob Liefeld, Dale Keown, Todd MacFarlane, etc.

Recognize the names? Yep. They are the ones that founded Image Comics.

Marvel adopted the new policy of letting the artists/pencillers script the books. All the writers did was put words into the art that was already completed. This is one of the two reasons Marvel nearly went under completely at the end of the 1990's.

The second reason was because Marvel decided to self-publish/distribute. A disaster just waiting to happen. And, it did. Can you say: "bankrupt?"



Other questions:

1. How come the Hellfire Club wanted to use Jean Grey as their Phoenix avatar/Black Queen when (as jrnewto has stated) their other Black Queen, Selene was already a previous host for the Phoenix? What was the HC's relationship with Selene that they didn't just use her, instead?

1) CC didn't have Selene's connection to the Phoenix Force planned out back then. It was something that came up years later when new ideas *popped* into his head.

2) Even if it is retconned that she did, why should the HC use Selene when she is as evil as evil gets. Better to use Jean Grey who can be brainwashed and used as the HC's puppet without worrying about her killing everyone like Selene would surely and eventually do. The HC didn't know back then what the Phoenix Force would ultimately do to Jean's mind.

And a most ancient question:

2. How come with their Shi'ar technology, the X-Men can't repair Xavier's inability to walk, control Rogue's powers, or even fix Stevie Hunter's knee injury?? On a larger scale, epecially with Forge around, why can't the technology of the Danger Room be used to solve world hunger, (ie. act like a replicator in Star Trek, etc.)?

It could. Here's why it doesn't:

This is Marvel Comics... not DC Comics. Back in the day Marvel was known for it's heroes and people having real world problems and real world concerns. DC's heroes were all god-like and never seemed to have any problems that couldn't be easily solved with their powers.

What fun is it reading a book where the heroes never have to struggle? What fun is it reading a book where the heroes are above everyone?

It's not.

Charles, Stevie, Rogue, etc have different problems that they have to adapt to in order to live their lives. Watching them struggle and overcome helps the readers to do the same if they are in the same or similar situations. It's that simple.

As an aside--

Sikorsky [of the Starjammers] did give Xavier the ability to walk. It occurred right after the X-Men's defeat of the Brood and the destruction of the Brood Homeworld. Xavier had a Brood Queen in him and it hatched. The X-Men and New Mutants were able to save the Prof's psyche, but his body was destroyed by the Brood transformation.

Sikorsky and Lilandra cloned a body of the Prof and he was able to walk after that. But, CC spent many issues showing how much of a struggle it was for him to do so because his mind was still used to him being crippled that it took months of intense training to enable him to walk again.

2a. How come with his degree in psychology, Charles Xavier can't treat Storm for her claustrophobia? If Rogue's power is partially psychological in nature, the same question applies to her, with regards to her powers.

See my above answer.

Real people/world problems in comics help bring in people who want to see their heroes having the same problems as them. Heroes are true heroes when they have to overcome problems that aren't super-villain related.

3. IMO, how come CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS 2 seems like a promo story for X-MEN: THE END?

Because CC wrote XM: TE and CoC II. CC also had a hand in the plotting of the original Contest of Champions. Makes sense that they would all tie-in together.

4. Nearly everyone knows of the Dark Wolverine story, but was there to be any stories featuring Wolverine in space, with ties to Landau, Luckman and Lake? UXM #276 showed Wolverine quite as ease with interacting with the alien populace, getting into bar fights, knowing at least some alien cultures, etc. These issues featured not very long after UXM #258, showing Wolverine and Rose Wu in a futuristic and perhaps alien, setting.

Logan is able to interact with alien populations as easily as ones on Earth because he's a "people's person." He fits in anywhere. Many people are like this.

Heck! Even I do this. No matter where I go I always fit in and make friends easily. Even when I went to Pamplona, Spain I fit in to the local populace. This should be considered amazing because I didn't speak a lick of Spanish, but still was able to socialize even without language. This doesn't mean I have ties to alien civilizations or have lived past lives on Earth or whatever else. I just can adapt and overcome to the situation. Same as Wolverine.

Oh! And as far as Rose Wu and Logan and LLL--

Larry Hama dealt with a few of this questions in Wolvie's own mag when he was on it. I highly recommend his issues. Highly!

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[Post 349]
Author : COWSTAR
Date : Apr 7, 2007 03:41 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I heard that he had a plot about dogs with machine guns that ate broccoli and snorted cocaine. He's sooo talented!!!!

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[Post 350]
Author : COWSTAR
Date : Apr 7, 2007 03:42 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Remember "God Loves Man Kills 2"? I wish THAT were an abandoned plot! haha! get it? those issues made people cry!

But he's doin better now, thank goodness.

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[Post 351]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 7, 2007 04:55 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

At the bottom of this page is the detailed original plans for the Mutant Massacre as talked about in the previous thread. Pretty exciting, I think. I would've loved to have seen this happen with Jim Jaspers and the Fury/Nimrod rather than just the Morlocks dying.

That's gold there.

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[Post 352]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Apr 7, 2007 03:26 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

That's gold there.

It most definetly is. I've read that over and over again and it is just amazing. That would have been in my opinion, at the time the greatest X-Men story,maybe even best Marvel comic story planned ever. I loved Moore's run on Captain Britain, and hate that CC couldnt effectively use Mad Jim Jaspers, an amazing character.

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[Post 353]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 7, 2007 04:44 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The thing I would like to know is why Claremont couldn't use the Shadow King. He wasn't appearing/going to appear anywhere else, so I just don't get why he couldn't just use the SK.
They allow Bogan, but say no to the Shadow King? They are practically the same, so I just don't get it.

Possibly because Claremont had recently used the Shadow King in the XXM Annual, and the editors felt it was too soon. Or the editor in question did not like the SK, and imposed his will on CC's story. I like how Claremont always finds a way AROUND these obstacles!

I want to read Claremont's Samizdat X-Men !

It most definetly is. I've read that over and over again and it is just amazing. That would have been in my opinion, at the time the greatest X-Men story,maybe even best Marvel comic story planned ever. I loved Moore's run on Captain Britain, and hate that CC couldnt effectively use Mad Jim Jaspers, an amazing character.

So the Uncanny 200s were to go like this?:

Uncanny X-Men #200-225: A mega-arc with Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury causing massive damage in the Marvel U, including a "Crisis on Infinite Earths"-Marvel event. Killing off many mutants, and maiming others (Kurt, Peter, Kitty and Longshot!) Forge gets involved and we see the final battle in Dallas, except it ends with:

UXM #226-250: The X-Men enter the Siege Perilous in #225 and assume separate lives. Scattered across the world like we saw in #253-261. Australia was NOT in CC's original plans????

UXM #251-300: Mega-arc whose primary tales were the Dark Wolverine Saga and the Shadow King opus. Secondary arc was the Gambit/Sinister plot. All headed towards Charles Xavier's untimely demise in UXM #300. And a future beyond #300, where the X-Men are permanently on their own, without the Founding Father to guide them.

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[Post 354]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 8, 2007 04:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Remember "God Loves Man Kills 2"? I wish THAT were an abandoned plot! haha! get it? those issues made people cry!

But he's doin better now, thank goodness.

I unlocked this post because something needs to be clarified.

CC was against GLMKII. He was told to write it or two things would occur if he refused:

1) He would be fired.
2) Someone else would write it.

CC gave in and had to rush the story in order for it to be finished in time and put to print in completion before X2 hit the theatres.

CC never intended there to be a sequel to GLMK. The story told a tale and it was self-contained.

Joey Q and Marvel wanted to cash in on this cashcow since Stryker would be in X2 and "forced" CC to write the sequel.

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[Post 355]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 8, 2007 07:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And let's not forget that CC had to somehow squeeze it into X-treme X-men continuity.

Just like Strom: Arena.
Two stories that just did not fit into X-treme continuity, and took the flow out of the book.

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[Post 356]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 9, 2007 01:50 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And let's not forget that CC had to somehow squeeze it into X-treme X-men continuity.

Just like Strom: Arena.
Two stories that just did not fit into X-treme continuity, and took the flow out of the book.

Exactly!

IIRC, wasn't Storm: Arena slated to be a mini-series that Marvel no longer wanted to do as a separate book so CC had to squeeze a round peg into a square hole?

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[Post 357]
Author : peeper
Date : Apr 9, 2007 03:09 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Logan is able to interact with alien populations as easily as ones on Earth because he's a "people's person." He fits in anywhere. Many people are like this.

Logan is SUCH a social little butterfly. Except for when he's a hairy little runt with body odor and no sense of tact, of course.

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[Post 358]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 9, 2007 03:53 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Exactly!

IIRC, wasn't Storm: Arena slated to be a mini-series that Marvel no longer wanted to do as a separate book so CC had to squeeze a round peg into a square hole?

Storm: The Arena was originally to be a mini-series, first announced in 2001. Igor Kordey took FOREVER drawing it, so it was then bumped to a prestige-sized graphic novel.

It finally found it's home in X-Treme X-Men in 2004. Where fans hailed it as the masterpiece it clearly was.

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[Post 359]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 9, 2007 03:57 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Logan is SUCH a social little butterfly. Except for when he's a hairy little runt with body odor and no sense of tact, of course.

Luckily, Logan tends to hang out in the seedier-type bars and establishments-- where he blends right in.

And, even luckier, in the Marvel U (and DCU), other worlds have one or more seedier places for Logan to frequent when he makes it offworld.

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[Post 360]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 9, 2007 12:00 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Storm: The Arena was originally to be a mini-series, first announced in 2001. Igor Kordey took FOREVER drawing it, so it was then bumped to a prestige-sized graphic novel.

It finally found it's home in X-Treme X-Men in 2004. Where fans hailed it as the masterpiece it clearly was.

IIRC, it was first meant to be a Graphic novel, then a mini, and then came X-treme.

And also, IIRC, the story was already finished for quite some time, but Marvel just put it in a drawer because Marvel was done with GN.
Because Kordey became the new regular penciler for X-treme, they put the thing in there (I guess).

You can say a lot of things about kordey, but he ain't slow.

[Marty P]

Part eight:

[Post 361]
Author : Congo Jack
Date : Apr 9, 2007 04:45 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Actually, Gambit was created by Claremont and Mike Collins in UXM #266.
Gambit was created by Claremont and Lee, he was just drawn by Mike Collins in his first appearance.

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[Post 362]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 10, 2007 01:35 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Gambit was created by Claremont and Lee, he was just drawn by Mike Collins in his first appearance.

Then I stand corrected.

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[Post 363]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 11, 2007 12:13 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What does this parallel with Ahab say about the untold Upstarts storyline that Fitzroy was a part of, with their quest for immortality?

Remember that the Upstart quest for immortality was not necessarily part of Chris’s plan, moreso something grafted on by later X-writers. You’ll recall the Upstarts were initially intended by Chris to be the Wild Boys. But as that name was already taken by Ammo’s gang (from Ann Nocenti’s run on Daredevil), editors ensured it was changed.

Chris’s purpose for the Wild Boys was a deadlier breed of mutants to supplant the then complacent Hellfire Club membership, according to the Shadow King’s will.

The first blatant notion of this occurring was when the Shadow King set the Fenris twins to shoot down the plane being piloted by Cylla Markham. However, Banshee and Forge, not Cylla, were the targets. They were planning to fly to Egypt with her, but decided otherwise just before take-off. His manipulating the Fenris twins to target the plane the pair would make their journey in would seem to suggest his having to prevent Banshee and Forge reaching his place of birth, Egypt… but why? And if Forge got a precognitive flash that it wasn’t safe to board the plane, why would he let his friend, Cylla, head off to certain death?

The Shadow King also tipped off Donald Pierce that Cylla was in need of cyborg body parts. As opposed to the Upstarts’ murder of Pierce, did Chris intend to reintroduce Pierce into the Hellfire Club’s Inner Circle? Pierce had previously challenged Shaw’s leadership of the Club, as its White Bishop, by kidnapping Tessa and trying to assimilate her mental abilities along with those of Professor X. Xavier’s New Mutants defeated Pierce, and the Inner Circle had him secured in a Shaw Industries installation in the Cumberland Highlands of Kentucky.

Tessa later discovers that Pierce has been freed (cf. UXM #245). And who becomes Donald’s first target? Why Logan, of course! When he returns to their Australian headquarters from a leave of absence, he is completely taken by surprise and beaten half-to-death by the Reavers. But he manages to free himself and, with Jubilee’s assistance, escape. But Pierce, thinking Muir Island is his most probable destination, orders the Reavers to take over the island and kill everyone on it.

With the letters page of UXM #229 suggesting that the truth of Gateway will cost the X-Men dearly, it is interesting that, up until UXM #250, he appears to be an ally of the X-Men, yet returns them to their Australian base to fight the approaching Reavers when they are in no shape to do so. Psylocke then experiences visions, a power of hers rarely relied upon during that time, of Gateway gesturing that the only way she can save her team-mates is to send them through the Siege Perilous. This forces her to convince her team-mates, some with a telepathic push, to enter the Siege. Why would Gateway teleport a battered team of X-Men, knowing of the incoming threat of Reavers? Was he also being manipulated by the Shadow King? That is, were Psylocke’s visions manipulated by the Shadow King in a similar fashion to those he had imposed upon Irene Adler which led to her and Raven Darkholme’s evolution into terrorists?

Alternatively, perhaps Gateway did not realise what bad shape the team was in until returning them, and then sent Psylocke those visions knowing she would be the only one capable of getting them out of harms way. But if this was the case, why would he then let Wolverine return there alone?

Of further interest is the similarity of the vision presenting Psylocke as a captor of the Reavers to Cylla Markham’s later transformation at their hands, after they salvaged her from the plane crash they were tipped off to by the Shadow King.

If the Shadow King manipulated Psylocke’s actions, it would explain her later washing up on the shore of a small island in the South China Sea belonging to the Hand, who contacted their Jonin, Matsuo Tsurayaba; another pawn of the Shadow King. Upon being transformed into Lady Mandarin, she captures Logan, who is seeking Landau, Luckman & Lake’s assistance in locating the rest of the X-Men. Handing him over to the Hand’s psychics, they try getting into his head, but his supposed inner control breaks their conditioning (strange when he is still experiencing hallucinations of Nick Fury and Carol Danvers), allowing him to free Psylocke, defeat the Mandarin and flee from Madripoor. Chris intended to reveal, in his Dark Wolverine saga, that Logan had not been as successful as he supposed, and that the Hand planted a subconscious trigger in his mind at this time that would later ensure he became their greatest assassin.

Considering the Shadow King’s manipulation of Fenris, he plotted the alliance between them and the Hand to perhaps set Wolverine upon the path to become the Hand’s assassin, and thus losing his adamantium skeleton. Why else would he convince Donald Pierce that Logan had fled to Muir Island when Pierce would know full well that the most likely place Logan would head to his is reserve base of operations, Madripoor!

The Shadow King also ensures Psylocke will lead the team through the Siege, knowing it will drop her into the clutches of the Hand (whose Jonin he is manipulating) who will go on to use her in capturing and testing Logan. He also ensures Lady Deathstrike allows Logan and Jubilee to escape without letting Pierce know, setting in motion her later encounter where she will rip out his heart, leaving his body to be retrieved by the Hand so they can retool him into their Assassin.

One further clue as to the Shadow King being behind Psylocke’s actions is Colossus coming out of the other side of the Siege with no memory of his time as an X-Man, making him much more vulnerable for the Shadow King’s possession of him.

I always come back to the words of Colonel Vazhin of “there existing… an operative identified only as the Shadow King… the ultimate power broker, who excelled at playing all sides against the middle, working simultaneously for every great power on the globe.. somehow making himself indispensable to each… that none dare take action against him.”

A repercussion of Wolverine’s transformation would be Jean Grey’s secret infiltration of the Hand. Perhaps this is what the Shadow King was up to all along – luring Jean into the Hand’s clutches to be transformed into the Dark Phoenix once again, and then be used to do what he had previously failed to – destroy the M’Kraan Crystal thus merging the N’Garai universe with our own.

As for Trevor Fitzroy’s retooling as an Upstart, with my suggestion that his plot was rewritten from that intended for Ahab’s return, this would seem to suggest that Ahab was intended as another of Chris’s Wild Boys. Not necessarily, but let me suggest how it could be played out.

What with the intended suggestion of the Shadow King being responsible for the Hounds, would he, upon becoming aware of Ahab when torturing Rachel (cf. unpublished Rachel Grey mini), eventually propose an alliance to bring the “Days of Future Past” reality to bear upon the X-Men’s then current reality. Imagine how Chris’s Mutant War would have then played out! The Shadow King may have permanently died from this battle, but he would take his ultimate revenge by destroying Charles’s dream right in front of him. Possessing Forge, he impels Mystique who assassinates Robert Kelly. In typical Claremont pathos, Ororo exorcises the Shadow King from Forge, killing both in the process. But Xavier dies in the knowledge that mutant-human relations are irreparable, and the war between humans and mutants he had worked so hard to curb is now inevitable. What remains of his X-Men are left to face the new breed of deadlier mutants fostered by the Shadow King, in addition to the “unstoppable” Sentinels humanity unleashes as a result of Kelly’s assassination.

With the suggestion of there being something unsettling about the above actions of Gateway, was the truth behind Gateway Technologies that it was one more tool of the Shadow King’s through which he manipulated Widget’s creation, thus ensuring young Colin McKay would be shifted to Jasper’s reality where he would become Master of the Hounds?

Thanks for all that man. I'm only halfway through this thread and I had to stop and post here and thank you for spending the time to put all that into text… Anyway, back I go to lurking, but this time with an even longer list of back issues to dig up.

Cheers.

I hope you’re still enjoying plumbing the depths of Claremont’s Abandoned Plots.

I apologize if this has been asked already, but does anyone know what the original plan for Cable was? I'm not sure he was always intended to be a grown-up baby Nathan.

If you email me at jrnewto@fastmail.fm, I’ll send you my extensive theory, as opposed to putting the board through that excruciating experience again;-)

The concept of Mystique/Forge/Storm I find interesting. Didn't you state that Nightcrawler was supposed to be the Shadow King's son? And obviously, the Shadow King has an old interest in Forge and Storm.

Well noted.

I still like your idea of the Shadow King’s interest in holy leaders of indigenous cultures.

Speaking of Storm, who was the Goddess, the Bright Lady, she was always referring to?

Askani also cried out “Merciful Bright Lady” (cf. X-Factor #66, p. 27).

Storm considered it to be Roma, who refuted this upon being interrogated by Ororo in UXM #229. So who might it be?

Was it the Phoenix Force perhaps approaching them, as it had done with Jean Grey when she held the dying Annie Richardson in her arms?

When the team battled Horde to save the whole of humanity, Storm, in the Citadel of Light and Shadow, enters the room where the Crystal of Ultimate Vision is housed, and senses “such power, a majesty.. an awful glory.. I have felt only once before” (cf. Uncanny X-Men Annual #11, p.32). The burning question then becomes: when and where was it that Ororo had previously sensed this power?

IMO, the core of your question deals with policies in the 1990's that taught fans to think of Xavier as a Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi type.

When Magneto claimed Genosha, I thought it would have been interesting to explore him as a mutant equivalent of Nelson Mandela, since Chris originally intended Genosha as analogous to South Africa, what with its apartheid at the time.

How much did the Wildboys know of the Shadow King? If they knew of his vunerability to metal and Adamantium was indeed their ultimate prize, would they then try and kill him??

Well noted!

Recall that the Neuri showed Wolverine that he can perceive the plane that Meggan taps into and possibly tap this power if it weren’t for his adamantium skeleton. So although his skeleton keeps him alive it also deprives him of an incredible state of enlightenment.

Also worth noting is how Magik’s Soulsword could affect Kitty while she was phasing, cutting her cheek (cf. UXM #171), moreso when compared with how Sabertooth’s adamantium-coated claws wind Viper, despite Kitty phasing her just in time? This would seem to suggest that adamantium has analogous properties to Magik’s Soulsword, since it similarly can cut through souls, as suggested by Shadowcat when she is armed with adamantium claws in Wolverine #128.

In light of your statements about Selene, she was to bestow immortality on the winner of the Upstarts game. I'm not sure how Selene would do this, but perhaps she would have bestowed immortality upon Dani Moonstar or whoever she chose as a protégé.

I would tend to agree.

With regard to my idea of Chris intending Logan as the true Fenris Wolf, according to legend the parent besides Loki was the evil witch, Gullveig, who was stabbed and burned three times by the Asgardians, arising from the flames each time.

This would seem to suggest she was a previous possessor of the Phoenix Force.

If you then consider my revelation that Selene was a previous host for the Phoenix, does this make her Logan’s other parent?

Well, CC mentioned last year on the UXM Thread that he had always meant for Emma to be the embodiment of the perfect woman.

There was a rumour circulating that Chris originally intended the White Queen to be a man projecting his idealised image of himself onto others.

It was suggested that he was playing with this idea once again through Elias Bogan, and his collection of “all things Nova Roma” might have been suggesting he was Selene in disguise.

The Destiny's Diaries story was to be an ongoing lengthy story arc that would involve the group of X-Men that were on the run from Mr. Sinister and his Summers Clan after they would've taken over the X-Mansion.

I personally managed to put the pieces of Mr. Sinister leading the Summers Clan together through high-altitude mapping. Thanks for confirming. What lead me to this was realising that Sinister’s title was referring to his bastard status within the Summers family.

It is interesting, when considering that Chris subbed Stryfe for Mr. Sinister in his planned arc with the X-Men on the run from the Summers Clan, that Psylocke was able to clean his clock in the 2001 Annual when Chris had previously shown Mr. Sinister, in Uncanny #243, defeating Betsy on the astral plane, something not even the Shadow King had been capable of.

In Uncanny #110 Warhawk (Mitchell Tanner) was later revealed to have been working for the Hellfire Club, as seen in X-Men (1st series) #129. He planted a bugging device which they used to spy on the X-Men for many months to come. while doing this, he is seemingly psychically attacked and forced to do so, and refers to this psychic as master. To me, it seems this person was meant to be the Shadow King, yet again showing that he was the true master of the Hellfire Club. I'm not sure if any of this was posted yet, but this can easily be seen as evidence that CC did in fact have the Shadow King, or the prototype or idea for him in charge of the Hellfire Club. What does everyone have to say about this?

The Official Index to the X-Men (graphic album format)#6 reveals that Warhawk was employed by Shaw, on behalf of the Hellfire Club. Warhawk himself didn’t know who his nameless, faceless master was. His master used psychic attacks, presumably performed by Mastermind, under the influence of the Shadow King. This information was first given by Mastermind in Uncanny X-Men#129 (“Your man Warhawk did his bugging well.”)

Of further interest, the original Atom Smasher’s assassin was meant to be Warhawk from the beginning. Whilst they never got around to revealing it, the assassin used Warhawk’s trademark “Bo’”, and the story was written by Chris.

I recall believing from Black Goliath that it was the Kingpin who’d hired Atom Smasher’s assassin, however, noted that the guy had rings on every finger, which Kingpin didn’t.

Despite the story in Marvel Fanfare I #3, later attempting to resolve the mystery, there’s nothing to say that the shadowy “Kingpin” figure calling the shots in the Black Goliath series wasn’t Farouk, indulging his physical appetites, transforming his hosts body into a morbidly obese form.

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[Post 364]
Author : Keoni
Date : Apr 11, 2007 03:00 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I still like your idea of the Shadow King’s interest in holy leaders of indigenous cultures.

Speaking of Storm, who was the Goddess, the Bright Lady, she was always referring to?
So would Red Lotus and Thunderbird III maybe have been (in time) eligible for this list, along with Forge, Storm, Dani Moonstar and Gateway?

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[Post 365]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 11, 2007 08:38 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Originally posted by Congo Jack:
Re. Gambit's origin:

Gambit was created by Claremont and Lee, he was just drawn by Mike Collins in his first appearance.IMO, this is also what happened regarding Bishop's initial appearance, as well.

Re. The Shadow King vs. Holy Leaders:

So would Red Lotus and Thunderbird III maybe have been (in time) eligible for this list, along with Forge, Storm, Dani Moonstar and Gateway?Dani and Neal are IMO, not eligible for that list, since they aren't holy leaders, unlike the rest on your list. I'm not sure if Dani becoming a Valykrie affects this somehow, and I'm not sure if Dani was groomed to become a priestess in training by her people. Neal was an naive, irresponsible playboy who became a hero through tragedy.

Re. the Gambit/Mr. Sinister connection & Forge:

Both Gambit and Mr. Sinister were/are con artists: Mr. Sinister was to use baby Nathan Summers, as an innocent seeming tool who whose appearance inspired love in order for Sinister's plan to remain covert to the X-Men. In UXM, Mr. Sinister planned to use Nathan to rule the Earth -- the baby was always special. Later on during X-FACTOR's "Endgame", Apocalypse indeed wanted to raise the baby as well, but realizing Nathan would destroy him, Apocalypse changed his mind.

Gambit a true con artist as well, was going to use love and trust in order to kill the X-Men. This is the case via Jim Lee and Chris Claremont, no matter what the plots were. The X-Men did no background checks on Gambit, a character who defeated the Gladiator (unlike Colossus)!!

People may have forgotten that although it makes no sense that Gambit led the Marauders into the Morlock tunnels (it was Tommy, as jrnewto pointed out in these threads), it really doesn't matter. Gambit still rounded them up. And Gambit had to of course know they were killers since that's what the Marauders had in common. So according to the two plots:

1. Gambit obeyed Mr. Sinister out of debt (the 1990's plot), or

2. Gambit was actually Mr. Sinister (the earlier Chris Claremont plot), who brought them all together in the first place. Then Gambit became an X-Man, and was later going to continue his plan to kill them all. Mr. Sinister/Gambit's betrayal takes on a deeper meaning considering his friendship of Storm, and the fact that Storm got conned, too. Either way, according to the quote below from a true X-Men prophet, the following is the reason why Bishop was always right and Gambit will always be the X-Traitor:

From rac.mx, originally posted by VLADIMIR JOSEPH (on 12/28/96):

Why there was a mutant massacre

It wasn't to capture Aoa beast.

When the marauders first appeared,their mission was to destroy the
x-men,all of them , and their friends and families

That's why they destroyed the house of jean grey's sister,a mutant
activist with relations to the x-men

That's why sinister destroyed all files on madelyne pryor that could prove her existence.The marauders kidnapped baby cable,burned cyclops 's house in alaska.[DN's NOTE: Cyclops destroyed his own house]They fought cyclops in x-factor i guess.They did shoot madelyne pryor in uxm 215,but her damn phoenix force kept her alive

Storm had no relatives save the x-men and the morlocks ,who were her "family".The x-men lost 3 members and 90% of the morlock population was
wiped out,like in rwanda.

wolverine and nightcrawler 's origin and relatives were still unspeficied at the time.I guess they didn't attack amanda sefton because nightcrawler was serioulsly injured (on the brink of death) and that was good enough for sinister.

As for wolverine,the marauders could have attacked alpha flight,mariko,akiko but they didn't have the time.It was hard enough to kill the x-men once and for all.

Since colossus and shadowcat were seriously injured,they must have
figured that they didn't have to get their families

Rachel summers was gone

As for magneto,his only relatives are quicksilver and the scarlet witch, and like mister sinister said in uxm 221 :"in you can't kill the x-men, how can i expect you to fare against such heroes as the avengers or the fantastic four ? "

As for psylocke.She was new at the time and they didn't have that much info on her.Since she hanged with the x-men ,she would die with them,then would get casptain britain and meggan

As for rogue,i don't think it would have been a good idead to attack a governement sponsored team like freedom force at the time.They didn't the
press so soon.The marauders are covert

As for longshot.I don't think sinister gives a about mojo and mojoworld

They did attack dazzler,havok and polaris

So i guess that if it wasn't for the fall of the mutants,the marauders might have succeeded in killing all the x-men and their friends ,but the adversary was faster.

I wonder why they weren't after cyclops and x-factor during the interim
between fall of the mutants and infernoWhich leads to...

Re. Forge:

During the Vietnam War, Forge acted out of anger and revenge by using the souls of his fallen soldiers in a manner considered deplorable to...mostly anyone. Where the souls of these warriors now reside is a mystery. Forge hid these actions from Storm and it later came back to haunt him.

In his fight with the Adversary, Forge ended up killing more X-Men than the Marauders, so in that respect, he was more successful than they ever were. And although Storm was one of these X-Men who ended up dying, and although the X-Men willingly sacrificed themselves, they were still her family. It's clearly no way to further win Storm's heart by killing more members of the only family (aside from the Morlocks) she really has!! IMO, it's another reason why the X-Men were invisible to electronics during this time -- they had died, so the machines acted accordingly. And it's yet another reason why a true Forge/Storm romance was dead from the start.

-- DN

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[Post 366]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 12, 2007 12:04 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to the Jim Jaspers plotline, the Fury was a cybiote composed of metal and sinew.

A cybiote is a kind of cyborg whose organic parts were artificially grown. This being the case, from who were the Fury’s organic parts harvested?

Could a clue be its demonstrated ability to travel between dimensions?

Were its organic parts perhaps harvested from some previously known character who had the ability to travel between dimensions? If so, who would people theorise that particular character to be?

On a different point, I suspect Selene, like Kulan Gath, served Thoth-Amon, and upon vying for membership in the Black Ring was denied due to her being a woman, thus leading to her enmity with the High Priest of the N’Garai.

With regard to Selene being a former wielder of the Phoenix Force, I wonder if her power to drain the life energies of her victims in order to sustain her own was a parting gift of the force. Just go with me for a moment. You’ll recall, in All New X-Men #108, when Jean entered the M’Kraan Crystal and repaired it she was referred to as “Tiphareth, child of the sun, child of life, the vision of the harmony of things.” The energy lattice she formed to contain the neutron galaxy was “shaped like the mystic tree of life – with Xavier at its lofty crown and Colossus at its base. Each X-Man has a place, each a purpose greater than himself or herself.”

There is, however, a dark side to the Tree of Life called the Tree of Death. The Tree of Death could also be said to reside beneath the Tree of Life. According to this tradition this is where the evil, notorious Qlippoth reside. Kabbalistic cosmology asserts that due to a primordial catastrophe during the creation of the universe, left over energy shattered and fell, becoming the Qlippoth, otherwise described as “husks” or “shells” which held trapped the souls of human beings, and were thus the source of evil. They are the denizens of the Tunnels of Set. The Tunnels of Set are the dark pathways that are the “evil” opposite of the pathways on the Light side of the Tree. This infernal region is the home of the Black Sun mirroring Tiphareth.

Whilst wielding the Phoenix Force, Selene would become the Dark Phoenix, as Jean had. However, serving Thoth-Amon, she would have had less opportunity to turn back to the light-side, unlike Jean, who had the love of Scott and the X-Men to redeem her.

Kulan Gath perhaps invites Selene to become a member of the N’Garai-worshipping Black Ring with the intention of using her ability to channel the Phoenix Force to bring forth its dark side to open wide a gateway to return the Elder Gods to Earth.

To bring forth the Dark Phoenix, Selene descends the Tree of Death, as Jean Grey had ascended the Tree of Life, but being an inexperienced wielder, is rent apart in the process.

But the Qlippothic level of reality she descends into reanimates her corpse, sending her forth to drain the blood of her poor victims off into this reality, perhaps providing the N’Garai with further fuel.

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[Post 367]
Author : Keoni
Date : Apr 12, 2007 02:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

jrnewto, your posts in this thread are the most enjoyable and entertaining posts to read. Your thoughts, ideas and insights really get me excited about rereading old Claremont stories. I love the connections you bridge between various ideas and stories. Absolutely a pleasure to read your posts.

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[Post 368]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 12, 2007 02:39 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

jrnewto, your posts in this thread are the most enjoyable and entertaining posts to read. Your thoughts, ideas and insights really get me excited about rereading old Claremont stories. I love the connections you bridge between various ideas and stories. Absolutely a pleasure to read your posts.
Thanks for the sentiments, Keoni.

While I'm on board, has anyone considered that X-23 is in fact not a clone of Wolverine, but perhaps of Silver Fox? It was after all inferred back in Wolverine #50 that Silver Fox had claws like Wolverine.

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[Post 369]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Apr 12, 2007 02:43 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With the suggestion of there being something unsettling about the above actions of Gateway, was the truth behind Gateway Technologies that it was one more tool of the Shadow King’s through which he manipulated Widget’s creation, thus ensuring young Colin McKay would be shifted to Jasper’s reality where he would become Master of the Hounds?


But Colin was portrayed as having a physical mutation from the start, of being a mutant from the start. How would he grow up to be Ahab, who didnt have cat eyes complete with slit pupils and wasnt a mutant?

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[Post 370]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 12, 2007 05:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

To take up with the intriguing "Tree of Death" theory, what if this energy lattice---the polar opposite to the "Tree of Life"---also had representatives for it, like the X-Men. Only here we have the Shadow King at the lofty crown. And individuals like Selene, Sinister, Kierrokk, Kulan Gath, Belasco, etc. making up the frame of the Tree of Death.

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[Post 371]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 12, 2007 07:50 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But Colin was portrayed as having a physical mutation from the start, of being a mutant from the start. How would he grow up to be Ahab, who didnt have cat eyes complete with slit pupils and wasnt a mutant?
I don't recall Colin McKay having cat's eyes when he was shown as a tyke in early Excalibur issues - I'm certain this feature was only later introduced by Alan Davis. Can you confirm the issue number of Excalibur, including page and panel numbers where he appeared with slit pupils as a child?

With regard to Ahab being a mutant, there was nothing to say that he wasn't a mutant from the start either - in fact quite the opposite. In Days of Future Present, one of his mutant captives accused him of being a traitor to his own kind.

To take up with the intriguing "Tree of Death" theory, what if this energy lattice---the polar opposite to the "Tree of Life"---also had representatives for it, like the X-Men. Only here we have the Shadow King at the lofty crown. And individuals like Selene, Sinister, Kierrokk, Kulan Gath, Belasco, etc. making up the frame of the Tree of Death.
This would certainly make sense, since each "Tunnel of Set" has its own polar opposite to the "Tree of Life", usually represented by a demon of sorts.

Now the task remains determining who each of these opposites are, though, since the Black Sun is said to reside on this dark side of the tree, perhaps "XMen: Black Sun" holds a key, with the Lords of Hell shown there being some of the prime suspects.

But rather than having Shadow King at the crown, what about Nightmare?
Chris revealed that “when the first dreams came in the night, the Shadow King was born in the first nightmare” (cf. X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001). However, nightmares were where Nightmare drew his power from.
Which one is the more dominant?

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[Post 372]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Apr 12, 2007 08:20 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Excalibur Vol.1 Issue #2 pages 2 & 3, big yellow eyes with slit pupils.

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[Post 373]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 12, 2007 01:58 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

But rather than having Shadow King at the crown, what about Nightmare? Chris revealed that “when the first dreams came in the night, the Shadow King was born in the first nightmare” (cf. X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001). However, nightmares were where Nightmare drew his power from. Which one is the more dominant?

I would say the Shadow King deserve top spot as the only thing I remember about Nightmare is that he attacked Nightcrawler and Amanda for the soulsword. Just because he is the king of the nightmare/dream dimension he shouldn't get the top spot unless Chris was going to go some where with him.

I'm not sure but I remember reading on another web site that before CC had the idea of Mystique/Destiny as Nightcrawler's parents he considered Nightmare as his father maybe he abandoned some plots concerning him when the idea got shot down?

Nevertheless, would Selene represent nightmare Tiphareth on the nightside tree or occupy nightmare Binah?

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[Post 374]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 12, 2007 09:27 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Only here we have the Shadow King at the lofty crown. And individuals like Selene, Sinister, Kierrokk, Kulan Gath, Belasco, etc. making up the frame of the Tree of Death.

Can anyone confirm or deny that Keirrokk is a tribute to an original Star Trek episode during Season 3. The episode where Kirk was on a planet that was about to be destroyed by a meteor and got amnesia after whacking his head when he fell into a hole of a symbolic pylon. When he got out he met a native women and married her and even got her pregnant.

While living with these native people they gave him the name of Kirock (sp?) since he couldn't remember his own name fully. When he only remembered part of his last name they just made it Kirock.

Now I know it's not spelled the same, but I do know that CC was a Star Trek fan back in the day.

Also worth noting is how Magik’s Soulsword could affect Kitty while she was phasing, cutting her cheek (cf. UXM #171), moreso when compared with how Sabertooth’s adamantium-coated claws wind Viper, despite Kitty phasing her just in time? This would seem to suggest that adamantium has analogous properties to Magik’s Soulsword, since it similarly can cut through souls, as suggested by Shadowcat when she is armed with adamantium claws in Wolverine #128.

CC covered the whole adamantium thing affecting phased persons in that arc he did on Wolverine.

When Kitty originally phased through Logan or Creed (I can't remember which right now) she screamed in shock and slight pain. She stated right afterwards that reminded her of an early Danger Room session when the Prof had her phase through adamantium. Because her powers were still very new to her she was unable to phase through adamantium unless she truly focused her willpower to do so. Adamantium is one of the 3 or so densest metals/materials in the Marvel U. Even though Kitty can phase she still has a hard time phasing through metals and such that have their molecules so tightly packed together. She has to phase her molecules even further than usual to get through it. Even to this day and present time.

Since the metal is so densely held together with strong molecular bonds then it is only natural and reasonable that it would affect even a phased person.

As to it possibly affecting an astral projection/soul--

It has long been stated in the Marvel U that magickal creatures and such are very vulnerable to metal. Especially iron... which adamantium is an offshoot of.

While I'm on board, has anyone considered that X-23 is in fact not a clone of Wolverine, but perhaps of Silver Fox? It was after all inferred back in Wolverine #50 that Silver Fox had claws like Wolverine.

X-23 is indeed a clone of Wolverine. Go pick up Wolverine #80 from the original on-going title when Larry Hama was writing.

In that issue a video is being played while Wolvie is fighting Cyber. The video is of a scientist talking about evidence he uncovered featuring the Weapon X Project.

In it he at one point is holding a blood sample in a test tube that is clearly labeled: "X-23." He is very specific in his video that he is talking about that vial being Wolverine's blood sample.

As further proof I spoke to Joey Q about this particular issue a couple years ago while at WWC and WWT. I even gave him the pics I scanned of the comic to confirm my suspicion. He told me later in an email that I was right and that Wizard Magazine even discovered this shortly after I did.

X-23's alleged origin was from the X-Men: Evolution cartoon. But, now it has to be wondered if the writers of the 'toon were big Larry Hama fans...

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[Post 375]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 13, 2007 12:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I'm not sure but I remember reading on another web site that before CC had the idea of Mystique/Destiny as Nightcrawler's parents he considered Nightmare as his father maybe he abandoned some plots concerning him when the idea got shot down?
Dave Cockrum is on record as the one who proposed Nightcrawler as Nightmare's offspring.

Chris revealed that “when the first dreams came in the night, the Shadow King was born in the first nightmare” (cf. X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001).

In Dr. Strange #182, Nightmare says that he is going to take Earth, all the Earths there ever were, and all the Earths that there ever will be and converge them in a cataclysmic event that will leave Earth a true world of Nightmare. This rather sounds like the Shadow King’s revealed motives in Excalibur’s Crosstime Caper.

Of further interest is a voice suddenly calling out to Nightmare! Nightmare turns to see Juggernaut. Nightmare asks Juggernaut what he wants. Juggernaut says that he wants to get back to Earth where his vast strength and power will do him some good. Juggernaut says that he wants to get there through the body of Dr. Strange.

Then we have Tieri’s script for NEX #15 revealing the idea I had earlier entertained: Cyttorak claiming that Charles Xavier was his original choice to become his Juggernaut.

At this time, Charles had yet to face Amahl Farouk.

What would have happened if the most powerful telepath on the planet had faced down Farouk as the Juggernaut?

With that helmet of Juggernaut’s being a defence against psychic assaults, would this have prevented Charles’s leaving the battle with the taint that later brought out his dark-side?

Is this what the Shadow King was trying to prevent?

Did the Shadow King perhaps influence Cain’s treatment toward Charles when they were young knowing that when the time came for Cyttorak to lure Charles to his temple in Korea, the opportunistic Cain would beat Charles to the Ruby?

Nevertheless, would Selene represent nightmare Tiphareth on the nightside tree or occupy nightmare Binah?
I would place Selene at the nightside of Tiphareth.
Reading scripts from Robert Weinberg’s run of Cable, he was suggesting that Jean’s mutant powers were due in part to her being a direct descendant of the Dark Mother, a centuries-old mutant whose DNA had been reshaped by the radiation of a strange meteor from space. Could you imagine the potential if this character had been revealed as Selene? Unfortunately, it appeared that he was going in a similar direction to Lady Grey of the Hellfire Club.

Quickly getting back to Nightcrawler, what is it about mutants ending up in the care of gypsies? Nightcrawler was found less than an hour after his birth in a small roadside shelter in the Bavarian Alps by Margali Szardos, a sorceress and gypsy queen; Meggan was supposedly born in a camper that was part of a modern-day gypsy convoy, although her true nature may be more supernatural in origin; and Wanda and Pietro were placed into the care of gypsies Django and Marya Maximoff. Does this indicate some underlying conspiracy? Is this an easy method to introduce changelings into the human population?

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[Post 376]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 13, 2007 03:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Dave Cockrum is on record as the one who proposed Nightcrawler as Nightmare's offspring.

Thanks for the clarification!

Chris revealed that “when the first dreams came in the night, the Shadow King was born in the first nightmare” (cf. X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001).

In Dr. Strange #182, Nightmare says that he is going to take Earth, all the Earths there ever were, and all the Earths that there ever will be and converge them in a cataclysmic event that will leave Earth a true world of Nightmare. This rather sounds like the Shadow King’s revealed motives in Excalibur’s Crosstime Caper.

Could Nightmare be in fact the father of the Shadow King? It is interesting to note that Nightmare survives because of humanity's need to dream less he dies and humanity goes insane. The Shadow King feeds off the darkness within the minds of humans the more evil within the stronger he (The Shadow King) becomes as his influence spreads and chaos ensues. Also of note Nightmare was at one time a servant of Shuma-Gorath an "old one" who was active around the Hyborean Age the same time period of Kulan Gath and Selene. Maybe there is connections to the High Priests of the Elder Gods here? And both have a vested interest in tampering with the multiverse.

Then we have Tieri’s script for NEX #15 revealing the idea I had earlier entertained: Cyttorak claiming that Charles Xavier was his original choice to become his Juggernaut.

At this time, Charles had yet to face Amahl Farouk.

What would have happened if the most powerful telepath on the planet had faced down Farouk as the Juggernaut?

With that helmet of Juggernaut’s being a defence against psychic assaults, would this have prevented Charles’s leaving the battle with the taint that later brought out his dark-side?

Is this what the Shadow King was trying to prevent?

Did the Shadow King perhaps influence Cain’s treatment toward Charles when they were young knowing that when the time came for Cyttorak to lure Charles to his temple in Korea, the opportunistic Cain would beat Charles to the Ruby?

Charles' dark side has always intrigued me. Just a crazy theory of mine but I figure that Xavier is the perfect host body for The Shadow King and the Dark X-Men arc in NEX has cemented it. I've figure Xavier was engineered to be an incredible source of psychic strength. Its been said that Brian Xavier possibly experimented on him during the Black Womb Project. Initially I thought Sinister to be totally behind it but The Shadow King could have subtly influence various events surrounding his birth in order to insure the perfect host was to be born.

Cyttorak looks upon this child with potential to be his earthly avatar and seeks to bring him to his temple in time. Farouk gets wind of this and manipulates the death of Brian Xavier, the marriage of Kurt Marco to Sharon Xavier and amplifies the animosity between the newly made brothers insuring that their rivalry will interfere with Cyttorak's plan and work in favor of his own.

I think the original battle in Egypt needed to take place. Farouk needed to taint Xavier's soul in order to insure a perfect possession otherwise Xavier eventually could have been too strong for him to control. Think of it as a back door if you will. If Xavier was the Juggernaut IMO not only would Farouk lose the battle not being able to affect him mentally but possibly would have been totally destroyed.


I would place Selene at the nightside of Tiphareth.
Reading scripts from Robert Weinberg’s run of Cable, he was suggesting that Jean’s mutant powers were due in part to her being a direct descendant of the Dark Mother, a centuries-old mutant whose DNA had been reshaped by the radiation of a strange meteor from space. Could you imagine the potential if this character had been revealed as Selene? Unfortunately, it appeared that he was going in a similar direction to Lady Grey of the Hellfire Club.

Hmmmm....strange meteor from space?=Possibly the Phoenix Egg? DNA reshaped by said meteor?=Ascension into avatar of the Phoenix Force? Descendant of Jean Grey=A plausible explanation of Jean's affinity of the Phoenix Force? Ummm... other than that I got nothing. Too early in the morning.

Lady Grey huh? I like Selene in the role a bit better. As her possible connections to the Phoenix are growing on me day by day. I have harbored thoughts about Lady Grey in fact being Madelyne Pryor in the present but I haven't really thought about it much.

Quickly getting back to Nightcrawler, what is it about mutants ending up in the care of gypsies? Does this indicate some underlying conspiracy? Is this an easy method to introduce changelings into the human population?

I would have to think more about this but it does present some potential regarding Meggan as a possible changeling and her revealed supernatural origin's. It is interesting that Nightcrawler ended up living with Margali and she has a past with Belasco who serves the "Elder Gods" or the N'Gari. Also interesting judging by that Excalibur vol.1 story that she is not above the summoning of demons.

Really I suppose it could go either way. Do some mutants need protection that possibly only the Gypsy's can provide? Or are these mutants and the Gypsy's that harbor them apart of some kind of underground commodities trade? For some reason I see something not quite kosher with the whole thing.

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[Post 377]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Apr 13, 2007 03:41 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Quickly getting back to Nightcrawler, what is it about mutants ending up in the care of gypsies? Nightcrawler was found less than an hour after his birth in a small roadside shelter in the Bavarian Alps by Margali Szardos, a sorceress and gypsy queen; Meggan was supposedly born in a camper that was part of a modern-day gypsy convoy, although her true nature may be more supernatural in origin; and Wanda and Pietro were placed into the care of gypsies Django and Marya Maximoff. Does this indicate some underlying conspiracy? Is this an easy method to introduce changelings into the human population?

Maybe it's just the pragmatist in me, but Gypsies are kind of commonly used as an 'exotic' and romantic type of people, so it's not surprising that mysterious and 'exotic' comic characters would have that heritage or origin. Dr Doom is a Gypsy (Roma), and isn't even Nightwing at DC supposed to have Roma heritage? Magneto's fake identity had some people believing he was Roma. Seems like mysterious European characters often have Roma ties, especially if magic's involved somehow. Kind of a stereotype, really.

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[Post 378]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 13, 2007 06:23 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Perhaps, besides the wandering aspect (ah, the Roma came up just in time), there's the persecution aspect -- that they might be more accepting of a strange-looking child such as Kurt out of empathy.

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[Post 379]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 13, 2007 06:26 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Both of you make valid points but for some reason I see a more sinister side to it. Don't know why. But stereotypical depictions, wandering encounters and persecution probably fit more.

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[Post 380]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Apr 13, 2007 07:20 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

This discussion of Wolverine made me remember something.In UXM #98 Steven Lang is interrigating Jean,Sean and Logan.Jean makes a comment to Lang,and as a result..he slaps her.Angry at this,Logan breaks out of his restraints,and extends his claws.Lang gets away,but when Sean sees Logan`s claws.He makes a comment that he did not think the adamantium claws were a part of his body,Sean and the X-Men thought it was a part of his costume.Logan does not want to talk about it.

Does this have anything to do with the Weapon X program?Added to that,i once heard either in this thread,the previous one or somewhere else.That Wolverine`s claws were originally not ment to be a part of his body,but Claremont fixed it so it was?Lastly,about Adamantium..it was commented by Luke Heller that its one of the 3 hardest metals in the Marvel Universe.I wonder,what are the other 2?When it comes to metal,i always hear about Adamantium...but there has to be other metals..right?

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[Post 381]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 13, 2007 07:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

X-23 is indeed a clone of Wolverine. Go pick up Wolverine #80 from the original on-going title when Larry Hama was writing.

In that issue a video is being played while Wolvie is fighting Cyber. The video is of a scientist talking about evidence he uncovered featuring the Weapon X Project.

In it he at one point is holding a blood sample in a test tube that is clearly labeled: "X-23." He is very specific in his video that he is talking about that vial being Wolverine's blood sample.
So basically, Hama is the creator of X23?
Heh, learn something new everyday.

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[Post 382]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 13, 2007 10:34 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

So basically, Hama is the creator of X23?
Heh, learn something new everyday.

About 2+ years ago I was re-reading my entire Hama-written Wolverine comics and that specific book jumped out at me. Basically, because Joey Q was really pushing X-23 at the time and trying to make her popular.

Maybe it's just the pragmatist in me, but Gypsies are kind of commonly used as an 'exotic' and romantic type of people, so it's not surprising that mysterious and 'exotic' comic characters would have that heritage or origin. Dr Doom is a Gypsy (Roma), and isn't even Nightwing at DC supposed to have Roma heritage? Magneto's fake identity had some people believing he was Roma. Seems like mysterious European characters often have Roma ties, especially if magic's involved somehow. Kind of a stereotype, really.

Perhaps, besides the wandering aspect (ah, the Roma came up just in time), there's the persecution aspect -- that they might be more accepting of a strange-looking child such as Kurt out of empathy.

I agree with both Lia and Ann. Gypsies are a mysterious people that jumped in popularity ever since Bram Stoker tied them into his Dracula novel. Now everyone uses them whenever it comes to having seedy European origins/ties and/or a magickal background.

Using gypsies is just like using all these clones and clone stories over the years. It's a plot device that just gets old and no one has the fortitude to just say: "Okay. No more clone stories. It's old now."

And, now that nano-technology has been popular in the real world our favorite comics are also jumping on this bandwagon as well.

This discussion of Wolverine made me remember something.In UXM #98 Steven Lang is interrigating Jean,Sean and Logan.Jean makes a comment to Lang,and as a result..he slaps her.Angry at this,Logan breaks out of his restraints,and extends his claws.Lang gets away,but when Sean sees Logan`s claws.He makes a comment that he did not think the adamantium claws were a part of his body,Sean and the X-Men thought it was a part of his costume.Logan does not want to talk about it.

Does this have anything to do with the Weapon X program?Added to that,i once heard either in this thread,the previous one or somewhere else.That Wolverine`s claws were originally not ment to be a part of his body,but Claremont fixed it so it was?Lastly,about Adamantium..it was commented by Luke Heller that its one of the 3 hardest metals in the Marvel Universe.I wonder,what are the other 2?When it comes to metal,i always hear about Adamantium...but there has to be other metals..right?

As has been mentioned somewhere in this thread and the previous one--

Len Wein had always intended Wolverine to be a real wolverine whose mutation was one that caused him to become a man. This was pretty much scratched right from the get-go.

When CC took over he really didn't have a background plotted out yet for Logan. As a matter of fact, until John Byrne took over for Dave Cockrum, Logan was just a hair's breath away from taking a permanet dirtnap. The fans hated him and CC wasn't having much luck writing him and making him come across as likable.

JB fell in love with Logan and started putting him in nearly every panel that he could. This extra effort (like what happened with Nightcrawler during Cockrum's run) won the fans over and they started liking Logan.

It's just an old trick of advertising. Saturate the public with your product and eventually they can't get it out of their minds.

Anyway...

CC has mentioned that he was very dissatisfied with Barry Windsor-Smith's Weapon X arc. BWS went in a direction CC didn't have planned when he started years earlier coming up with a background for Logan. One point is that Wolverine's claws were supposed to be bionic-related and were implanted into him during the adamantium bonding process.

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[Post 383]
Author : peeper
Date : Apr 13, 2007 11:56 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

JB fell in love with Logan and started putting him in nearly every panel that he could. This extra effort (like what happened with Nightcrawler during Cockrum's run) won the fans over and they started liking Logan.

It's just an old trick of advertising. Saturate the public with your product and eventually they can't get it out of their minds.

...which is kind of sad. I do think Logan is a great character, but he's also been given plenty more opportunity than other characters to develop. Of course, having over 100 years of Troubled Past helps.

About Nightcrawler and gypsies - I read something interesting long ago that stuck with me - I don't remember by whom and I don't even remember where, so this is very loose, but presumably, the person in question knew a thing or two about the Roma and said that in real life, Margali would probably have been ostracized from the Gypsy community for housing a demon. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

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[Post 384]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Apr 14, 2007 10:55 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

About Nightcrawler and gypsies - I read something interesting long ago that stuck with me - I don't remember by whom and I don't even remember where, so this is very loose, but presumably, the person in question knew a thing or two about the Roma and said that in real life, Margali would probably have been ostracized from the Gypsy community for housing a demon. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I don't know about the demon aspect, but due to centuries of persecution, they do tend to be a bit 'us vs them'. They have a lot of cleanliness and purity rules (a bit like Old Testament purity laws), and if I recall correctly, they don't consider outsiders to be pure/clean.

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[Post 385]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 14, 2007 02:51 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Lastly,about Adamantium..it was commented by Luke Heller that its one of the 3 hardest metals in the Marvel Universe.I wonder,what are the other 2?When it comes to metal,i always hear about Adamantium...but there has to be other metals..right?

Would they be Adamantium, Vibranium, and Promethium?

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[Post 386]
Author : HeliX
Date : Apr 15, 2007 02:39 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Or Phelbotium and Upsiedaisium?

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[Post 387]
Author : xakko
Date : Apr 15, 2007 05:09 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Promethium is just in Limbo, and I don't know to what extent it is durable.

I imagine carbonadium - called a more malleable version of adamantium - is the other.

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[Post 388]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 15, 2007 04:57 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Would they be Adamantium, Vibranium, and Promethium?

The most durable and strongest metal known in the Marvel U was actually created by accident. It is Captain America's shield.

According to the Marvel Directory:

It is made of a unique Vibranium-Adamantium alloy that has never been duplicated. The Shield was cast by American metallurgist Dr. Myron MacLain, who was contracted by the U.S. government to create an impenetrable substance to use for tanks during World War II. During his experiments, MacLain combined Vibranium with an Adamantium-steel alloy he was working with and created the disc-shaped shield. MacLain was never able to duplicate the process due to his inability identify a still unknown factor that played a role in it.

Adamantium and Vibranium round out the 2nd and 3rd slots. If one includes mythical metals then uru would probably be tied for 1st with the metals in Cap's shield.

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[Post 389]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 16, 2007 12:34 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Since Chris revealed the Wendigo transformation as a Curse of the Elder Gods (i.e. the N’Garai), I wonder what would was behind their motivation in mystically transferring this curse to the body of Bruce Banner?

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[Post 390]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 17, 2007 12:14 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Could Nightmare be in fact the father of the Shadow King? It is interesting to note that Nightmare survives because of humanity's need to dream less he dies and humanity goes insane.

This could make sense. Nightmare existed prior to the Shadow King, since he was there to begin feeding off human nightmares when they began dreaming, and the Shadow King was born in the first nightmare. He was also developed/ ret-conned into being some manifestation of the collective dark side of humanity’s consciousness prior to this. I wonder if Chris’s original plots for the Shadow King were intended for Nightmare, but he wasn’t allowed to use him due to Nightmare belonging to Doc Strange world of titles.

Charles' dark side has always intrigued me. Just a crazy theory of mine but I figure that Xavier is the perfect host body for The Shadow King and the Dark X-Men arc in NEX has cemented it. I've figure Xavier was engineered to be an incredible source of psychic strength.

I agree. I feel that Fabian’s Almagordo plot can be tied to the Shadow King quite easily. That is, Brian Xavier Kurt Marko, and Alexander Ryking are assigned by the government (consequently manipulated by the Shadow King) to conduct a covert project on the research of genetic mutations for the purpose of creating new Super Soldiers for the military. Hence Project X is born, named after the child it spawns, Charles Xavier, who merges the Astral Plane with corporeal reality, displacing the reactor with the detonation that tore the complex apart occurring harmlessly on the Astral Plane... sealing the void in the process. Horrified, he erases everyone’s memory of what occurs... including his own. Thus, perhaps Farouk manipulates events that lead to Charles later encounter with him in Egypt.

Cyttorak looks upon this child with potential to be his earthly avatar and seeks to bring him to his temple in time. Farouk gets wind of this and manipulates the death of Brian Xavier, the marriage of Kurt Marco to Sharon Xavier and amplifies the animosity between the newly made brothers insuring that their rivalry will interfere with Cyttorak's plan and work in favor of his own.

I have long posited this.

I think the original battle in Egypt needed to take place. Farouk needed to taint Xavier's soul in order to insure a perfect possession otherwise Xavier eventually could have been too strong for him to control. Think of it as a back door if you will. If Xavier was the Juggernaut IMO not only would Farouk lose the battle not being able to affect him mentally but possibly would have been totally destroyed.

There might also be evidence in the writings of Robert E. Howard for the Crimson One being at odds with the Giant-Kings, of whom I have posited Shadow King to be numbered among.

With regard to other incarnations of the Shadow King, since Tullamore Voge’s race is revealed to be an offshoot of the Kree who went on to become crosstime merchandise hunters, and he turned out to be a powerful telepath (cf. in UXM #384) who transformed his slaves into hounds suggesting him to be another host for the Shadow King, could this explain the mystery of the machinations of the Supreme Intelligence?

Lady Grey huh? I like Selene in the role a bit better. As her possible connections to the Phoenix are growing on me day by day.

That makes two of us. It makes me wonder if Chris intended Amara to perhaps be the next Phoenix, after Jean’s original death, what with Selene’s suggestion of ancestry.

You’ll also recall mention being made of Wolfsbane’s healing factor in Marvel Graphic Novel #4. A logical corollary of this, though never explored, would be Rahne’s hymen healing each time she has sexual intercourse.

And when the New Mutants set forth to find Sunspot’s archaeologist mother amidst the jungles of the Amazon, discovering the city of Nova Roma, just what was Chris’s intended story behind Wolfsbane being worshipped as a goddess there?

I have harbored thoughts about Lady Grey in fact being Madelyne Pryor in the present but I haven't really thought about it much.

How would you explain this?

Do some mutants need protection that possibly only the Gypsy's can provide? Or are these mutants and the Gypsy's that harbor them apart of some kind of underground commodities trade? For some reason I see something not quite kosher with the whole thing..

Was this also the purpose behind Magda’s relationship with Magnus, as it was suggested she was also of Romany descent?

Maybe it's just the pragmatist in me, but Gypsies are kind of commonly used as an 'exotic' and romantic type of people, so it's not surprising that mysterious and 'exotic' comic characters would have that heritage or origin. Dr Doom is a Gypsy (Roma), and isn't even Nightwing at DC supposed to have Roma heritage? Magneto's fake identity had some people believing he was Roma. Seems like mysterious European characters often have Roma ties, especially if magic's involved somehow. Kind of a stereotype, really..

I am in total agreement, Lia, but am wondering if the racial stereotype could be turned on its head and the coincidences could reveal some sort of conspiracy.

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[Post 391]
Author : Chris Day
Date : Apr 17, 2007 07:40 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to other incarnations of the Shadow King, since Tullamore Voge’s race is revealed to be an offshoot of the Kree who went on to become crosstime merchandise hunters, and he turned out to be a powerful telepath (cf. in UXM #384) who transformed his slaves into hounds suggesting him to be another host for the Shadow King, could this explain the mystery of the machinations of the Supreme Intelligence?


I think it was in that issue or maybe one earlier or later when Tullamore Voge is being held prisoner that Beast scans him and concludes that he is a species of Human, nothing is said about any Kree ancestry...

also, Kree offshoot races all have a different skin colour to the pure-blood Blue skinned Kree. Captain Marvel with his pink skin was one of these Kree-'other' hybrid species...

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[Post 392]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Apr 18, 2007 02:38 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have the feeling that,if these plotlines become more popular..there may be demand for them to be played out in some form or another.

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[Post 393]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 18, 2007 05:54 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have the feeling that,if these plotlines become more popular..there may be demand for them to be played out in some form or another.

These abandoned plotlines will never be popular enough for there to be any "demand" for them to be done, because they are quite simply abandoned plotlines, and nothing else. And specially considering CC's plotlines which are not abandoned are not very popular at the moment.

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[Post 394]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 18, 2007 06:38 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

These abandoned plotlines will never be popular enough for there to be any "demand" for them to be done, because they are quite simply abandoned plotlines, and nothing else. And specially considering CC's plotlines which are not abandoned are not very popular at the moment.

Well, the Dark Wolverine plotline was used. Mark Millar took it and dumbed it down so that Wolvie wasn't missing from the Marvel U for an entire year as CC had originally planned.

A couple years ago while at a Convention I even asked CC if Millar had maybe come to him and asked his permission to use one of his abandoned plotlines. CC, in his professionalism only replied:

Let's just say great minds think alike.

I wasn't sure how to take that and CC wasn't divulging any more info to me in regards to that point. My take was that Millar did indeed approach CC and asked him if he could use the storyline. I say this because I saw the look in CC's eye and it was different from the other answers he gave in relation to other topics we were discussing.

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[Post 395]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 18, 2007 07:11 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, the Dark Wolverine plotline was used. Mark Millar took it and dumbed it down so that Wolvie wasn't missing from the Marvel U for an entire year as CC had originally planned.

A couple years ago while at a Convention I even asked CC if Millar had maybe come to him and asked his permission to use one of his abandoned plotlines. CC, in his professionalism only replied:



I wasn't sure how to take that and CC wasn't divulging any more info to me in regards to that point. My take was that Millar did indeed approach CC and asked him if he could use the storyline. I say this because I saw the look in CC's eye and it was different from the other answers he gave in relation to other topics we were discussing.

I know about it, but there was no "demand" for it, it was just Millar getting inspired by this plot and making his own version of it (which was much better than CC's version was probably going to be, IMO). There won't be a fan or industry demand for CC abandoned plots, and even his not abandoned ones are not appreaciated all that much nowdays.

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[Post 396]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 18, 2007 01:15 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

There won't be a fan or industry demand for CC abandoned plots, and even his not abandoned ones are not appreaciated all that much nowdays.

Only by people who don't like him.

That being said I think time has passed for most of these plots in their original form to take place. I wouldn't want to see the Summer's Rebellion in any form. The Shadow King War would really need to be retooled and the Shadow King would need to be presented as a threat to the X-Men nowadays because he isn't even a blip on the radar in the main books. Also since they are CC's abandoned plots he should be the one to write or if possible lead the direction they go in...And we all know that isn't going to happen.

I have harbored thoughts about Lady Grey in fact being Madelyne Pryor in the present but I haven't really thought about it much.


How would you explain this?

Truthfully I wouldn't know how.

The idea popped into my head years ago during Inferno. I liked Madelyne as a character, I liked her as Cyclops' wife, Was intrigued when she was Anodyne, Enjoyed when she worked with the X-Men, And absolutely loved her as The Goblin Queen.

I really wanted her to stick around as enemy of the X-Men and arch nemesis of Cyclops and Jean. A real villainous threat from a female perspective.

It was mostly trying to find some way she could have the connection with Jean and the physical characteristics without being Jean's clone and virtually reduced to worthlessness. I thought maybe Lady Grey made a deal with the devil in the form of Mr. Sinister.

But I haven't given it any more thought. Then I hear that Lady Grey appeared in the Hellfire Club mini from years past so she probably has some kind of wacky origin and wouldn't fit any how. Plus I believe she was slightly before Mr. Sinister's time she being in the 18th century and he in the 19th.

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[Post 397]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 18, 2007 09:21 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

(which was much better than CC's version was probably going to be, IMO)
Really? What a surprise.
CC was on a roll back then, and he wrote one of the best Wolvie's.

. There won't be a fan or industry demand for CC abandoned plots, and even his not abandoned ones are not appreaciated all that much nowdays.
Seriously, why are you even in this thread?
All you seem to do is tell us how much everything would have sucked, and that it would have been terible etc etc.

We all know you don't like Claremonts writing. There is absolutely no problem with that, we all have different tastes, but why come in this thread and say all would have been crap? I mean, how can you even say what's on top of this post?

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[Post 398]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 18, 2007 09:48 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Really? What a surprise.
CC was on a roll back then, and he wrote one of the best Wolvie's.

Yes, but if his story went exactly as it intended, it would last an absurd amount of time, more than two years of killing machine Wolverine controlled by the Hand running around trying to kill everyone and figthing the X-men, that after one year of him dead. Millar's story was great, but if it lasted more than it did, it would be boring and repetitive. Plus, CC's version was in a big part an excuse for Wolverine and Jean Grey to have sex and get together, which is anoter bad idea since that's one of the worse pairings i can think of, regardless of who is writing it.


Seriously, why are you even in this thread?
All you seem to do is tell us how much everything would have sucked, and that it would have been terible etc etc.

We all know you don't like Claremonts writing. There is absolutely no problem with that, we all have different tastes, but why come in this thread and say all would have been crap? I mean, how can you even say what's on top of this post?


Because i have the right to say what's on my mind and to discuss it as much as anyone else and the discussion doesn't lose anything with someone who dislikes most of the abandoned plots (and prefers the stories that saw print over the ones that don't) and happens to be a minority among the most regular posters on this thread. If you don't like it, just leave the forum and don't come back.

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[Post 399]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 18, 2007 09:53 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Marty, Alpha man, please remember to keep it civil.

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[Post 400]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 18, 2007 11:29 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, but if his story went exactly as it intended, it would last an absurd amount of time, more than two years of killing machine Wolverine controlled by the Hand running around trying to kill everyone and figthing the X-men, that after one year of him dead. Millar's story was great, but if it lasted more than it did, it would be boring and repetitive.

Well, considering I'm not a lackey of the new-TV-generation where I need to have all my stories written in 4 and 6-issue arcs with no evolving plotlines and no loose ends, I would have loved to have seen a 1-2 year story written and played out.

Plus, CC's version was in a big part an excuse for Wolverine and Jean Grey to have sex and get together, which is anoter bad idea since that's one of the worse pairings i can think of, regardless of who is writing it.

I have got to say you are wrong here. If you go back and carefully read all of CC's UXM run since UXM #94 up to the present time (including all other relevant X-books) you will see that Jean and Wolvie getting together was just a matter of time. It was a natural progression of love/lust.

I'm more of the opinion of wondering how Scott and Jean were able to stay together long enough to even get married. Scott was always so rigid and strict and lacking a sense of humor as well as adventure. Jean, since linking with the Phoenix Force, has been the polar opposite of Scott. Say what you will, but opposites do not attract-- let alone stay together.

Because i have the right to say what's on my mind and to discuss it as much as anyone else and the discussion doesn't lose anything with someone who dislikes most of the abandoned plots (and prefers the stories that saw print over the ones that don't) and happens to be a minority among the most regular posters on this thread. If you don't like it, just leave the forum and don't come back.

You do have a right to discuss it. But don't confuse discussion with just getting on here and leaving a negative opinion without so much as a reason why. Which is what you did in the original post that Marty P responded to.

Feel free to discuss why you dislike CC and I'll gladly engage in a debate with you. But, just leaving a post that doesn't explain why you feel a certain way is just trolling.

I know about it, but there was no "demand" for it, it was just Millar getting inspired by this plot and making his own version of it (which was much better than CC's version was probably going to be, IMO). There won't be a fan or industry demand for CC abandoned plots, and even his not abandoned ones are not appreaciated all that much nowdays.

Wow. I had no idea I felt like this. I didn't know you had the power to read my inner most mind and discover I must secretly hate CC and all his plots-- whether abandoned or current. Thank you for freeing my inner conscience for me.

And... in case you couldn't tell... that was sarcasm. Please don't make a statement for the entire mankind. You'll actually find it can come back and haunt you. Especially since I know david r, Marty P, Stephanie Garrelie, jrnewto, myself and a few others like the ideas CC had with his abandoned plots and even like his current work(s).

See? That proves beyond a reasonable doubt that your statement was wrong. Not everyone is against it and/or not for it. Kind of makes anything further you might add to be taken with a grain of salt since you have already just been proven to be wrong.

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[Post 401]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 19, 2007 12:31 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, considering I'm not a lackey of the new-TV-generation where I need to have all my stories written in 4 and 6-issue arcs with no evolving plotlines and no loose ends, I would have loved to have seen a 1-2 year story written and played out.

I agree. All these "condensed for the masses" plots are a perfect Orwellian way of limiting the vocabulary and thus limiting the consciousness. It's no wonder that ADHD and anxiety are endemic - because we haven't be taught to be patient.

[color=red]I have got to say you are wrong here. If you go back and carefully read all of CC's UXM run since UXM #94 up to the present time (including all other relevant X-books) you will see that Jean and Wolvie getting together was just a matter of time. It was a natural progression of love/lust.

Yes. Chris worked very hard to evolve Logan from the savage berserker into the noble warrior, and Jean's falling for him after her own flirtation with the dark side is totally natural (and Rachel being the fruit of that union would have been a great way to bring this idea to its natural conclusion).

Oh, and with regard to the Rachel Grey mini illustrated by Rick Leonardi (but never published), can anyone recall the opening credits page including two versions of Susan Richards in Franklin’s dream at the cinema?

This would perhaps suggest that the series was going to be similar to Days of Futures Present storyline, as two versions of the Four appeared in the Fantastic Four chapter…

Maybe the movie being viewed by Franklin et al. was Rachel’s transformation into a Hound by the Shadow King!

[color=red]And... in case you couldn't tell... that was sarcasm. Please don't make a statement for the entire mankind. You'll actually find it can come back and haunt you. Especially since I know david r, Marty P, Stephanie Garrelie, jrnewto, myself and a few others like the ideas CC had with his abandoned plots and even like his current work(s).

Hear! Hear! Remember Luke, we cannot let people's ignorance, however great, undermine our knowledge, however small. It might be better for those people to go and join a John Byrne messageboard where they can advocate for his, as opposed to Chris's, version of Magneto too.

Speaking of Mags, I hear that in the short-lived Excalibur series (prior to New Excalibur) Magneto points out that people seemed to have trouble recognising him these days, including Toad and Unus, yet Callisto and Wicked didn’t have this problem.

With the ambient magnetic fields leftover from Cassandra Nova’s attack on Genosha, would Magneto undergo further mutation? Perhaps he was destined to become a wholly astral being, ala the Shadow King. The potential was certainly there, as he had previously entered the Astral Plane under his own steam.

Personally, I think it would have been cool to see Magneto remain in Genosha as a ghost – but not a supernatural one – rather he actually becomes the “quantum energy signature” of a dead person.

In addition, in issue #14, Xavier is revealed to have been hooch-mates in Vietnam with Logan and Carmen Pryde, Shadowcat’s father. But was this true? Were these actual memories, or a result of the Scarlet Witch manipulating Charles’s reality?

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[Post 402]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 19, 2007 01:03 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Well, considering I'm not a lackey of the new-TV-generation where I need to have all my stories written in 4 and 6-issue arcs with no evolving plotlines and no loose ends, I would have loved to have seen a 1-2 year story written and played out.

I'm not saying 2 or 3 year stories are bad, i'm saying THIS STORY played out in two or three years would be boring. Or even more than some issues of any mind-controlled hero are uninteresting. Specially because the Hand or a clan of assassins shouldn't be the X-men main villains, like it would happen with this story playing out all this time.



I have got to say you are wrong here. If you go back and carefully read all of CC's UXM run since UXM #94 up to the present time (including all other relevant X-books) you will see that Jean and Wolvie getting together was just a matter of time. It was a natural progression of love/lust.

No, it wasn't a natural progression, it was forced and created by retcon. And if you read CC's UXM run from #94 to #138, you'll find absoltutely nothing on the relationship, Jean didn't even cared about Logan, the "big love story" was as retconned as Storm and Black Panther's.



I'm more of the opinion of wondering how Scott and Jean were able to stay together long enough to even get married. Scott was always so rigid and strict and lacking a sense of humor as well as adventure. Jean, since linking with the Phoenix Force, has been the polar opposite of Scott. Say what you will, but opposites do not attract-- let alone stay together.


CC himself used to disagree with this, and that's why he intended for Scott and Jean to marry after DPS. And, despite having this so called "wild-side", Jean is not a nomad like Logan and is not interested in wandering around the world having adventures or something, that's why she was the one that suggested the creation of X-factor, for example.


You do have a right to discuss it. But don't confuse discussion with just getting on here and leaving a negative opinion without so much as a reason why. Which is what you did in the original post that Marty P responded to.

No, i didn't, i have explained why i dislike the particular plots more than once.




[color=red]Wow. I had no idea I felt like this. I didn't know you had the power to read my inner most mind and discover I must secretly hate CC and all his plots-- whether abandoned or current. Thank you for freeing my inner conscience for me.

And... in case you couldn't tell... that was sarcasm. Please don't make a statement for the entire mankind. You'll actually find it can come back and haunt you. Especially since I know david r, Marty P, Stephanie Garrelie, jrnewto, myself and a few others like the ideas CC had with his abandoned plots and even like his current work(s).

See? That proves beyond a reasonable doubt that your statement was wrong. Not everyone is against it and/or not for it. Kind of makes anything further you might add to be taken with a grain of salt since you have already just been proven to be wrong.

By fan demand, i thought it was pretty clear that it meant from most of them, or at least a great part of them. Even Austen has some fans.

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[Post 403]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 19, 2007 05:15 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Speaking of Mags, I hear that in the short-lived Excalibur series (prior to New Excalibur) Magneto points out that people seemed to have trouble recognising him these days, including Toad and Unus, yet Callisto and Wicked didn’t have this problem.

With the ambient magnetic fields leftover from Cassandra Nova’s attack on Genosha, would Magneto undergo further mutation? Perhaps he was destined to become a wholly astral being, ala the Shadow King. The potential was certainly there, as he had previously entered the Astral Plane under his own steam.

Personally, I think it would have been cool to see Magneto remain in Genosha as a ghost – but not a supernatural one – rather he actually becomes the “quantum energy signature” of a dead person.

Nope. I got the scoop directly from Aaron Lopresti at last year's WWLA Convention. Lopresti was the artist for CC at that time on Excalibur.

Aaron related that Chris was making Magneto a "bad guy" again. As in the past, Mag's powers were again having detrimental effects on his physical brain and would cause him irreparable harm to his mind that would cause him to go "bad" again.

When I asked Aaron if this was Chris's idea or Joey Q's, Aaron told me it was all Claremont's idea. Chris wanted to evolve Magneto again by devolving him first to a state of a "bad guy."

He did relate that Magneto would stay "bad" for quite awhile, though. I.E.: a couple or so years.

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[Post 404]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 19, 2007 06:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, but if his story went exactly as it intended, it would last an absurd amount of time, more than two years of killing machine Wolverine controlled by the Hand running around trying to kill everyone and figthing the X-men, that after one year of him dead.
So what if it lasted more then 2 years?
The Dark Phoenix Saga took pretty long to tell as well, and is considered one of the best X-men stories ever. Taking in mind CC's method of writing back then, we wouldn't get every month 22 pages of Wolverine on a killing spree.

Unlike Millars story, this one would have been told in Uncanny, not his solo book. Big dif.

Plus, CC's version was in a big part an excuse for Wolverine and Jean Grey to have sex and get together, which is anoter bad idea since that's one of the worse pairings i can think of, regardless of who is writing it.
This, I agree with. I don't think Jean and Logan fit well together.
Heh, it even failed in the AoA!

Because i have the right to say what's on my mind and to discuss it as much as anyone else and the discussion doesn't lose anything with someone who dislikes most of the abandoned plots (and prefers the stories that saw print over the ones that don't) and happens to be a minority among the most regular posters on this thread.
Like I said before, no problem with you having a different taste, but you're not really discusing. You come in here and state your opinion as fact.

If you don't like it, just leave the forum and don't come back.


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[Post 405]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Apr 20, 2007 02:31 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I wasn't sure how to take that and CC wasn't divulging any more info to me in regards to that point. My take was that Millar did indeed approach CC and asked him if he could use the storyline. I say this because I saw the look in CC's eye and it was different from the other answers he gave in relation to other topics we were discussing.

When i first read this post,i got the impression that Claremont`s storyline was stolen and used without his permission.But the "great minds think alike" saying was just a gentleman`s answer to it.In that sence,i hope no one uses any more of Claremont`s unused stories.

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[Post 406]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 20, 2007 04:43 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When i first read this post,i got the impression that Claremont`s storyline was stolen and used without his permission.But the "great minds think alike" saying was just a gentleman`s answer to it.In that sence,i hope no one uses any more of Claremont`s unused stories.

I'm giving Millar the benefit of the doubt. I'd ask him but he rarely, if ever, goes to Cons. I'd like to think Millar is above something like this, but-- after reading his Civil War-- I don't know what to think anymore.

Millar's Ultimates are beyond reproach. A better book is hard to find. But, then, Civil War kind of went in the opposite direction.

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[Post 407]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 21, 2007 03:00 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In UXM #264, Forge claimed credit for Colleen Wing’s cyborg arm. Did this occur when he worked for the government, or was he working for a private contractor, perhaps the Rand Corporation?

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[Post 408]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 21, 2007 03:25 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In UXM #264, Forge claimed credit for Colleen Wing’s cyborg arm. Did this occur when he worked for the government, or was he working for a private contractor, perhaps the Rand Corporation?

Good question. Has there ever been an issue of another comic featuring/guest starring Colleed Wing where she states if the government gave her the arm or some other agency?

That would answer the question right away without any doubt.

My guess would be that Forge made the arm, but Colleen acquired it through an outside governmental agency. I think that if the government had "given" it to her she would still be working for them in some way.

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[Post 409]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 21, 2007 06:03 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Luke, do you know what Mr. Claremont's plans were regarding the oddities about Genosha in "New Excalibur" v.3 #8? That is, the burned ground not far beneath the tall trees and wilderness and cattle, the 5 little orphans who had apparently survived on their own for so long? Wicked died yet lived again? Did all the survivors on Genosha die and then be brought back to life? Charles said Magneto should be dead.

Of the survivors we met (and we don't know what powers the little orphans would have manifested when they reached puberty), I find it suspicious that they included: 1. a reptilian strong guy
2. a young boy who was much like Toad, who was once Magneto's most loyal follower
3. someone who could generate electricity
4. a young woman with hair that could move on its own, rather like the sister of Magneto's granddaughter's mother
5. another strong guy (but normal looking)
6. a telepath
7. a teleporter
8. a boy who could morph into creatures that could do the jobs that needed to be done
9. a girl who could control ghosts
10. I'd count Unus, but I'm not sure if he was on Genosha at the time or came after the disaster.
Most telling of all, given that technology didn't work on Genosha:
11. a boy who could access electromagnetic communications and project them
12. a woman who was a living repository of human knowledge.

Granted, there were other survivors whom we didn't get to meet, but the ones we did were almost entirely mutants whose powers would make them particularly useful in rebuilding Genosha. (It wouldn't have surprised me if they'd met a survivor -- or one of the older orphans -- would have turned out to have the power to make plants grow.)

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[Post 410]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Apr 21, 2007 07:28 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

10. I'd count Unus, but I'm not sure if he was on Genosha at the time or came after the disaster.

I'm sure he was there at the time, which would be why he was so traumatized. Keep in mind that when Morrison wrote the original story of survivors there were very few of them, and Unus' powers would explain why he was one of only a small handful (at the time).

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[Post 411]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 22, 2007 05:16 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Luke, do you know what Mr. Claremont's plans were regarding the oddities about Genosha in "New Excalibur" v.3 #8?

Sorry, Ann. Nope.

When I was chatting with Aaron Lopresti last year at WWLA (2006) I was on a short break from judging Heroclix Tournaments. Not surprisingly, Aaron's young son was playing Heroclix on and off that weekend.

My chat with Mr. Lopresti was rather short.

12. a woman who was a living repository of human knowledge.

And we all know she was modeled after you, Ann. I can't tell you how jealous I am.

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[Post 412]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 24, 2007 12:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did anyone ever consider that Donald Pierce’s imprisonment in the Cumberland Highlands of Kentucky was rather odd with its being in the vicinity of Guthrie stomping ground, made moreso by the fact that Pierce knew where to find Sam and recruit him into becoming a Hellfire Club mercenary? Is Pierce perhaps related to Sam’s mother or father – like Sam, he was blonde and hayseed slim.

Speaking of relatives, in Classic X-Men #41, Chris showed Scott Summers suffering from a recurring nightmare, which was always about fire, open space and cold. In this dream, Scott hangs from a ceiling holding on to Nate who begs Scott not to let them fall. Shapes in the fire come closer and Nate asks Scott not to let them get him. But as Scott starts to see the face in the fire, the frightened faces of a man and a woman, he knows it’s not Nate they want. He tries to hold onto Nate, but the boy falls.

The “fire, open space and cold” would indicate that they are aboard the plane piloted by his father Major Christopher Summers, its fuselage ignited by the Shi’ar starship sent by D’Ken.

The frightened faces in his dream would be Scott’s father, and his mother Katherine Anne Summers. Strangely enough, there is no sign of Alex in this dream sequence. Was this perhaps suggesting that it was Nate on the plane with Scott, and not Alex?

The Living Pharaoh, Ahmet Abdol, claimed that within Alex Summers ran the blood of Royal Egypt, inextricably linking the pair, yet there was never any suggestion that the same applied to Scott, despite his being Alex’s biological brother.

It could be revealed that the reason Mr. Sinister dismissed what he mumbled to Scott about there being a Third Summers Brother, was due to Alex actually being the son of Apocalypse, and a plant within the X-Men.

This might also explain the reason why Christopher Summers never mentioned a 3rd Summers Brother was because there were only ever two in the first place, and when he heard about Scott and his brother being part of the X-Men, he never questioned it.

On an earlier note, further proof that Selene previously wielded the Phoenix Force… comparable to Jean Grey she possessed the ability to read minds and project thoughts, and to move things with her mind. Thanks to her telepathy and telekinesis, like Jean, she also has a shield that protects her from mental and physical attacks.

Speaking of the Dark Phoenix, in the television programme Dark Shadows the character of Laura Murdoch Collins returns to Collinsport, Maine after a ten-year absence to gain custody of her son from her estranged husband, Roger. It is revealed that Laura is an “immortal phoenix” in human form and is nearly at the end of her 100-year lifespan, as she is granted in this storyline. To make a successful completion of the reincarnation process, she must bring another person – her son – into the fire with her. The character of Laura the phoenix is reincarnated a few times into the plotlines of the show, with later episodes showing her to be a worshipper of the god Ra, which may explain the lack of survivors of those she brings into the fire with her, reframing her victims as a divine sacrifice for favour and power rather than as companions for eternity.

I wonder if this is where Chris got his inspiration from for Dark Phoenix/Madelyne? It is interesting when you consider what Madelyne attempted to do to her son during Inferno.

With regard to the Chris’s plans for a federally-mandated member being forced into the X-Men lineup, I would posit that he intended it to be Vargas, as opposed to earlier contentions of it being Spiral.

You’ll recall Chris’s intention to wend elements from “X-Men: The End” into the mainstream titles, it was in “End” that he revealed Vargas having worked his way into a position of leadership as the head of the X.S.E. He claimed that the member would have made Psylocke’s head explode and what better way than the being responsible for her murder in XXM.

If Sage’s comments that Vargas was the “Xavier Protocols” made flesh, this might have been an indication of Charles being under the Shadow King’s influence. The Shadow King would surely have much to gain by Vargas scrubbing Psylocke out, since she had been shown as the one telepath capable of utterly defeating him.

[Marty P]

Part nine:

[Post 413]
Author : Keoni
Date : Apr 24, 2007 12:36 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Wasn't the writer of the Cable series wanting to tell a story that would reveal Apocalypse to be the third Summer's brother?

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[Post 414]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 24, 2007 03:28 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did anyone ever consider that Donald Pierce’s imprisonment in the Cumberland Highlands of Kentucky was rather odd with its being in the vicinity of Guthrie stomping ground, made moreso by the fact that Pierce knew where to find Sam and recruit him into becoming a Hellfire Club mercenary? Is Pierce perhaps related to Sam’s mother or father – like Sam, he was blonde and hayseed slim.

You might have something there.

The frightened faces in his dream would be Scott’s father, and his mother Katherine Anne Summers. Strangely enough, there is no sign of Alex in this dream sequence. Was this perhaps suggesting that it was Nate on the plane with Scott, and not Alex?

Perhaps that's JUST WHAT Claremont wanted you to think !

This might also explain the reason why Christopher Summers never mentioned a 3rd Summers Brother was because there were only ever two in the first place, and when he heard about Scott and his brother being part of the X-Men, he never questioned it.

Interesting, and of course, the Living Pharaoh and Apocalypse were both tied in with ancient Egypt. Coincidence??

On an earlier note, further proof that Selene previously wielded the Phoenix Force… comparable to Jean Grey she possessed the ability to read minds and project thoughts, and to move things with her mind. Thanks to her telepathy and telekinesis, like Jean, she also has a shield that protects her from mental and physical attacks.

Let's go a step further and suggest that Jean Grey and Selene may have been sisters !!

I wonder if this is where Chris got his inspiration from for Dark Phoenix/Madelyne? It is interesting when you consider what Madelyne attempted to do to her son during Inferno.

Dark Shadows influencing Claremont. Dark Phoenix? Sounds plausible. Who knew James you were a fan of Dark Shadows?

With regard to the Chris’s plans for a federally-mandated member being forced into the X-Men lineup, I would posit that he intended it to be Vargas, as opposed to earlier contentions of it being Spiral.

I already posited that suggestion here and Claremont shot that one down. No, it wasn't Vargas. Most people now think it was going to be Spiral. It was her time to shine?

You’ll recall Chris’s intention to wend elements from “X-Men: The End” into the mainstream titles, it was in “End” that he revealed Vargas having worked his way into a position of leadership as the head of the X.S.E.

That's just what I thought. Whether CC wanted Vargas back, I seriously doubt Marvel editorial would allow it. Little of his X-Treme X-Men has survived.

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[Post 415]
Author : peeper
Date : Apr 24, 2007 06:17 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Did Claremont ever reveal what plans he had for Nightcrawler in his latest Uncanny run? He had hinted somewhere about a "life-changing experience" in one particular issue, but it was nixed.

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[Post 416]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 24, 2007 06:27 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Luke: I hope that Book, Broadband, and the five lil' orphans are safe somewhere and that the older mutants, at least, are still powered.

JRNEWTO: If Mr. Claremont was inspired by Laura the Phoenix from DS, I'm glad he never did what the soap opera did. After all, Roger Collins, Laura's 20th century husband, was the descendent of Jamison Collins, her late 19th century son. That means that David Collins' mother was his great or great-great grandmother.


I don't know, Peeper. I'm sorry.

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[Post 417]
Author : Lia Brown
Date : Apr 24, 2007 04:05 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Wasn't the writer of the Cable series wanting to tell a story that would reveal Apocalypse to be the third Summer's brother?

I believe so. A horrible idea, IMO.

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[Post 418]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 24, 2007 05:47 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Wolverine:

1. Has anyone ever wondered: if the Dark Wolverine storyline happened, well -- what would really be the point of it, especially since Chris Claremont never intended to tell Wolverine's origin? If Wolverine was to go through all of this torture and suffering, at least it would have been interesting to learn about his past while viewing all of this. Yes, Wolverine is a warrior, we all know that. But what's the point in seeing Wolverine suffer so much under the control of the Hand? It really all seems to go back to the idea of Wolverine being written with his healing factor used as an excuse to portray him as a punching bag, to suffer because he is a macho character in the X-Books.

And as I stated in the Claremont's Abandoned Plots (I):

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/...&postcount=694

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/...&postcount=709

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/...&postcount=742

the fact that Chris Claremont never gave Wolverine an origin, left a path open that got taken by Barry Windsor Smith and others, which soon exploited Logan and IMO ruined the character.

2. Regarding X-23 as Wolverine's clone, how can a man have a female clone?? How would she be a clone, then?

Re. Gambit plots:

I think there's actually three ideas about Gambit's origin: 1. Chris Claremont's idea, and 2. the one used by Fabian Nicieza & Scott Lobdell. But no one mentions how Jim Lee intended for Gambit to be the traitor, only that he intended for Gambit to be a traitor. What did Jim Lee have planned? Jim Lee's ideas for Gambit never seemed to involve the idea of Gambit=Mr. Sinister. Did Jim Lee ever comment on Chris Claremont's ideas for Gambit?

Just what was Chris Claremont's fate for Gambit as Mr. Sinister? Was Gambit going to remain an X-Man, after having conned them all? How would he remain Storm's friend after causing the near-deaths of three of her adopted family (including her "daughter", Kitty Pryde) and the deaths of 90% of her other adopted family, the Morlocks? This is not even including the other crimes Mr. Sinister did at the time as the head of the Mauraders.

Re. Storm:

This is not to take away from Chris Claremont's depiction of Storm as a leader etc., but these are things I have on my mind, since as with Wolverine, they involve untold plots about Storm's character that came back to haunt Mr. Claremont leading to Storm getting kicked out of the X-Men in later years as I stated in Claremont's Abandoned Plots I, (posts #694 #709 #742, linked above):

Similar to Wolverine going through all of this pain and suffering in the X-Books, what was really the point over the years in causing many villains (for instance) to chase after Storm? Right now, I'm not really convinced Storm was ever in love with anyone, so what was really the point? The more I think about Forge, it seems as if even he was "set up" to continue as a confused weak male, whose weakness had the most disastrous effects -- and its fallout certainly had the effect of alienating Ororo from him. So for all of Forge's potential, he would have never been an ideal match for Storm.

If most villains characters only want Storm as a prize, and she doesn't love them either, doesn't all of that really objectify her in a really big way?

This, plus IMO the idea of depicting Storm's early years as a straight haired, blue-eyed and naked Black version of "Ayesha, She Who Must Be Obeyed" in Kenya, further serves to objectify her.

And as if art imitates life: Around last year, there was a very strange and totally fake story via Newserama (?) that linked to X-Fan for about a few days about a Storm miniseries by Chris Claremont, that was basically going to objectify her in a pornographic way. And now, at the following X-Fan link, there is news of an upcoming book by Chris Claremont with art by a European erotica artist who many consider to be a pornographer:

Chris Claremont's Women of the X-men OGN:

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/...ad.php?t=35194

Originally posted by jrnewto:

The first blatant notion of this occurring was when the Shadow King set the Fenris twins to shoot down the plane being piloted by Cylla Markham. However, Banshee and Forge, not Cylla, were the targets. They were planning to fly to Egypt with her, but decided otherwise just before take-off. Would the earlier scene with Fenris nearly killing Storm in Kenya also have something to do with this?

With all of your theories here about Wolverine, how much do you think Chris Claremont intended if he stated he never wished to reveal Wolverine's origin? Could it really be true that Mr. Claremont never intended to show this??

Bishop & Vargas simularities:

To jrnewto and others:

I find it very interesting that Vargas was/is always stated to be the "Xavier's Protocols made flesh", when Chris Claremont stated the exact thing about Bishop. Long ago I listed how Bishop and Vargas and even Khan, especially when drawn by Salvador Larocca, shared many physical simularities, and skills as well. Just how did Vargas really seem to embody the Xavier's Protocols, anyway? He only fought a few of them, so how did this knowledge get really actualized in the X-Books?

It's also a telling simularity that you state Vargas was to get forced onto the X-Men, when Xavier did exactly that with Bishop.

Re: Luke Heller's comments about Chris Claremont being a Star Trek fan:

I recall seeing an excellent looking graphic novel in the 1990's by Chris Claremont with Adam Hughes doing the art.

-- DrNoh

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[Post 419]
Author : Scott Havok
Date : Apr 24, 2007 07:50 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Does anyone know who CC was going to reveal as Chimere in the latest Excalibur series?

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[Post 420]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 25, 2007 04:00 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

[

1. Has anyone ever wondered: if the Dark Wolverine storyline happened, well -- what would really be the point of it, especially since Chris Claremont never intended to tell Wolverine's origin? If Wolverine was to go through all of this torture and suffering, at least it would have been interesting to learn about his past while viewing all of this. Yes, Wolverine is a warrior, we all know that. But what's the point in seeing Wolverine suffer so much under the control of the Hand?

My feeling is Dark Wolverine would have made Logan even closer to his new role as "Conscience of the X-Men." Through all the horrors the Hand no doubt would have forced Wolverine to commit, it ultimately would have been a test. Would Wolverine's Warrior soul win out, or the animal he'd become (the very thing he feared most.) Logan finally would have stood face-to-face with his innermost terrors, and win.

It would have been another story in Claremont's recurring theme of salvation.

Just what was Chris Claremont's fate for Gambit as Mr. Sinister? Was Gambit going to remain an X-Man, after having conned them all?

My feeling is that even as Gambit was subverting the X-Men from within, he would have fallen in love with Rogue. For Gambit, "love" would have been an all-new emotion, and would have set him apart from Mr. Sinister's scheming. So when the final betrayal occured, Gambit would have hesitated from fulfilling his "mission", because he had found something else. So Remy could eventually have remained an X-Man because he's just a clone, and also he now has his own identity, thanks to the sexy Southern Belle.

Right now, I'm not really convinced Storm was ever in love with anyone, so what was really the point?

I feel Storm is only in love with leadership of the X-Men. No man will EVER take the place of her role. It defines her and is sad, but Ororo can never know romantic love because she has devoted her existence to the X-Men. If you read Claremont's evolution of her character (from Goddess to Leader to Hardened Warrior to Xavier's equal ) you will notice the change.

The more I think about Forge, it seems as if even he was "set up" to continue as a confused weak male, whose weakness had the most disastrous effects -- and its fallout certainly had the effect of alienating Ororo from him. So for all of Forge's potential, he would have never been an ideal match for Storm.

Forge and Storm were just a love affair. I think CC knew they would never stay together, and she would choose her X-Men above any lover. But do believe Ororo loves Forge.

With all of your theories here about Wolverine, how much do you think Chris Claremont intended if he stated he never wished to reveal Wolverine's origin? Could it really be true that Mr. Claremont never intended to show this??

Claremont flat out stated he NEVER would have revealed Wolverine's entire origin. However, he would have given enough hints & clues so you could connect the dots. He felt showing everything would demystify the intrigue that surrounded Logan.

I recall seeing an excellent looking graphic novel in the 1990's by Chris Claremont with Adam Hughes doing the art.


Star Trek: Debt of Honor which was released in 1991 or 92. A follow-up of sorts to the Star Trek movies, and an excellent read. I recommend it strongly.

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[Post 421]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 25, 2007 09:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

My feeling is Dark Wolverine would have made Logan even closer to his new role as "Conscience of the X-Men." Through all the horrors the Hand no doubt would have forced Wolverine to commit, it ultimately would have been a test. Would Wolverine's Warrior soul win out, or the animal he'd become (the very thing he feared most.) Logan finally would have stood face-to-face with his innermost terrors, and win.

It would have been another story in Claremont's recurring theme of salvation.


I don't like Wolverine as the conscience of the X-men, his methods always, and sometimes his ideals too, are too different from those of the X-men and he commited too much crimes to bein a position of moral superiority and guidance. Someone like Beast or Nightcrawler would be the ideal, IMO, or at least Cyclops or Storm (although since leaders have to be sometimes too pratical, they are not necessarily the best choices to this position).


I feel Storm is only in love with leadership of the X-Men. No man will EVER take the place of her role. It defines her and is sad, but Ororo can never know romantic love because she has devoted her existence to the X-Men. If you read Claremont's evolution of her character (from Goddess to Leader to Hardened Warrior to Xavier's equal ) you will notice the change.

Which is why i said that Claremont would never do to Storm, or any of his pet characters, what he did to Cyclops, to have the character retired and in a situation which is almost impossible for it to return to active duty definitively.


Claremont flat out stated he NEVER would have revealed Wolverine's entire origin. However, he would have given enough hints & clues so you could connect the dots. He felt showing everything would demystify the intrigue that surrounded Logan.

And Marvel only begun to show Wolverine's origins after the first movie was released and the 2nd was going to show his past, so his actual origin wouldn't be told by some film director, but Marvel itself. Anyway, for more than Wolverine's origins remaining a mystery could be interesting, i think it would be inevitable for it to be shown eventually, too much money involved.

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[Post 422]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 26, 2007 12:27 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Since Captain Britains must choose between the Sword and the Amulet, and the Captain Britain Corps is made up of those who choose the Amulet (Right over Might), Chris had wanted to address what happens to those who chose the Sword for a very long time.

I think instead of needing to go down the path with the Black Prince, he had a character and mythology sitting right under his nose waiting to be plucked up – the Black Knight!

With the Ebony Blade being revealed to have connections to the isle of Atlantis, an interesting coincidence is that the Sword of the Emperor Kamuu and the Star Sapphire Pendant were practically identical to the Sword of Death and the Amulet of Life that Captain Britains had to choose for their mission as protectors of the British Isles.

Merlin and the meteor that carried the metal for the Black Knight’s sword appear tied in too. There seems to always have to be a wise man, a choice between sword and jewel, and the forging of a dark weapon.

So we clearly have the Sword and the Amulet of Captain Britian myth appearing alongside the Ebony Blade (quite literally in the UK-only published Captain Britain material where Dane Whitman teamed up with Brian Braddock and Merlin).

Thus, we have the Merlin links to the Ebony Blade and the Ebony Dagger. So while there are equal and opposite sword and amulet, there’s also a cursed weapon involved that has some undefined relationship to the other two.

Or maybe the Ebony Blade is what you get if you forge sword and amulet into one object?

Chris’s choice of the Black Prince, though, brings to mind a Hellfire Club association…

I also wonder if Chris intended to begin addressing the Sword Corps when he introduced Caledonia during his run on F4? If Alysande Stuart had chosen the Sword over the Amulet, it might explain why she was a prisoner in the Starlight Citadel. I wonder what Roma was up to when she assigned Alysande the duty of becoming Franklin Richards’s nanny?


On a different note, whilst people might have difficulty believing that Tessa being Xavier’s sleeper in the Hellfire Club wasn’t a retcon, you should not forget that strange gaze between the pair in the New Mutants Graphic Novel (which was the first New Mutants story ever).

However, why would Charles need to then give Michael Rossi the mission of infiltrating the Hellfire Club to determine the details of their involvement in SHIELD, if he already had Tessa in the Club as his mole?

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[Post 423]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Apr 26, 2007 03:56 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Because Tessa was a deep cover agent and maybe it was too dangerous to get the info from her that he wanted at the time? And as I typed that I realize thats not likely considering Xaviers telepathic abilities as well as Sages own mental capabilities. But its the hellfire club, they could have psychic dampeners and other psychics, such as Emma, keeping tabs on people. So it could still have been too dangerous. So that might be why he needed the other guy.

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[Post 424]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 26, 2007 04:42 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re: Luke Heller's comments about Chris Claremont being a Star Trek fan:

I recall seeing an excellent looking graphic novel in the 1990's by Chris Claremont with Adam Hughes doing the art.

-- DrNoh

I own the hard cover of this graphic novel.

Star Trek: Debt Of Honor
1992
CC
Adam Hughes
Karl Story.

And, as David R stated, it is highly recommended.

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[Post 425]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 26, 2007 05:45 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

On a different note, whilst people might have difficulty believing that Tessa being Xavier’s sleeper in the Hellfire Club wasn’t a retcon, you should not forget that strange gaze between the pair in the New Mutants Graphic Novel (which was the first New Mutants story ever).

A "strange gaze" is not an indicative of "Tessa has been a spy all along" and it was really Xavier's first student.


However, why would Charles need to then give Michael Rossi the mission of infiltrating the Hellfire Club to determine the details of their involvement in SHIELD, if he already had Tessa in the Club as his mole?

There isn't much of explanation, and another reason why i don't buy Claremont had this planned from the start.

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[Post 426]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 26, 2007 04:48 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

There isn't much of explanation, and another reason why i don't buy Claremont had this planned from the start.

When I spoke to him a couple years ago he told me he did indeed have it planned from the very beginning that Tessa/Sage would be working for Charles Xavier.

Of course, he could have just been pulling my leg. I don't know. The look he gave me was a serious look, though.

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[Post 427]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 26, 2007 06:22 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When I spoke to him a couple years ago he told me he did indeed have it planned from the very beginning that Tessa/Sage would be working for Charles Xavier.

Of course, he could have just been pulling my leg. I don't know. The look he gave me was a serious look, though.

Well, if he did, then Tessa is the worse spy ever, because she never stopped the Hellfire Club or helped the X-men antecipate their plans, not once, ever. Try to read DPS with the knowledge that Tessa is a spy and Brubaker's retcon about Xavier already knowing Emma Frost and try to not having your head spin.

Anyway, the retcon that Xavier put a kid to be a spy in the Hellfire Club (a place where sexuality was very used also) along with the Danger Room and X-men 1.5. team are responsible for Xavier's image as a irredeamable bastard nowdays, and i don't know if there is any redemption to him.

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[Post 428]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 26, 2007 07:55 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Originally posted by david r:

My feeling is that even as Gambit was subverting the X-Men from within, he would have fallen in love with Rogue. For Gambit, "love" would have been an all-new emotion, and would have set him apart from Mr. Sinister's scheming. So when the final betrayal occured, Gambit would have hesitated from fulfilling his "mission", because he had found something else. So Remy could eventually have remained an X-Man because he's just a clone, and also he now has his own identity, thanks to the sexy Southern Belle.

When/why would Gambit ever get revealed to be a clone and not Mr. Sinister? Was he supposed to be Mr. Sinister or not? And didn't a poster here state that not only was Gambit to be Mr. Sinister, he was to be obsessed with Storm (maybe like how Eric Beale was with Dazzler)?

Re. Storm:

For all of her power, Storm was always incredibly objectified -- and still is. The idea behind the hoax Storm miniseries wasn't too far from the mark, sadly. By not giving her emotions, she only remains identified by acting like: a overbearing goddess type, an ultimate warrior, "Mother Africa", walking around naked or wearing barely any clothes "because she's African", etc. Without really anything defining her personality, she was taken from the X-Books very easily.

I think in a way, the whole idea that Storm loves Forge is like that nasty joke about not dating (or choosing to date) the last man on Earth. Forge was the only man on the Adversary's planet, so he was chosen. I don't think it's too much of a surprise that Yukio had a more positive influence on Storm than Forge ever did when Chris Claremont wrote any of them.

Originally posted by Alpha man

And Marvel only begun to show Wolverine's origins after the first movie was released and the 2nd was going to show his past, so his actual origin wouldn't be told by some film director, but Marvel itself.

(and in another post)

Anyway, the retcon that Xavier put a kid to be a spy in the Hellfire Club (a place where sexuality was very used also) along with the Danger Room and X-men 1.5. team are responsible for Xavier's image as a irredeamable bastard nowdays, and i don't know if there is any redemption to him.

Well, Wolverine's origins were shown earlier with the 1990's Weapon X storyline, that didn't become canon until Jim Lee used it in X-MEN.

It also amuses yet disturbs me that people would rather see Wolverine, a true unrepentant killer, as the soul of the X-Men before they would see or accept Bishop co-lead the X-Men. From what I know, Wolverine is third if not second in line with the highest amount of people killed by an X-Man: Dark Phoenix and Xavier as the Entity possibly tie in first place. Now that Sabretooth is an X-Man, he's also up there on that list...

You also make a rather excellent point about Tessa in the HC as a very young girl. Early issues of XXM seemed to show Tessa as a traumatized child, really. Later books prove this point. So why place such a person in such a decadent enviorment? How much good could she really do? Apparently, not much.

Also, thank you to david r and Luke Heller for the Star Trek info.

- DN

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[Post 429]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 26, 2007 10:57 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Storm:
For all of her power, Storm was always incredibly objectified -- and still is. The idea behind the hoax Storm miniseries wasn't too far from the mark, sadly. By not giving her emotions, she only remains identified by acting like: a overbearing goddess type, an ultimate warrior, "Mother Africa", walking around naked or wearing barely any clothes "because she's African", etc. Without really anything defining her personality, she was taken from the X-Books very
easily.

Which is why i was never able to relate to Storm, and the periods i liked her more were Uncanny until the end of Brood Saga and later the brief period she was in that team with Jean, Logan and Sam led by Cyclops, in which she was for all or most of the time a subordinate to Scott and the "ultimate warrior alpha female leader" couldn't be played that much and she was less agressive , helped more her teammates and friend, without behaving like an authority figure, because she most of the time wasn't. One advantage of this marriage with Black Panther is that something similar can happen now, since T'challa is the leader of the FF and is the one who is in charge of Wakanda.


Well, Wolverine's origins were shown earlier with the 1990's Weapon X storyline, that didn't become canon until Jim Lee used it in X-MEN.

I was talking about the Wolverine: Origin series, showing him as James Howlett and as a kid, and the more recent Wolverine Origins series. In anyway, like i said, there's too much money involved for Marvel never to reveal his past completely like they are doing now.


It also amuses yet disturbs me that people would rather see Wolverine, a true unrepentant killer, as the soul of the X-Men before they would see or accept Bishop co-lead the X-Men. From what I know, Wolverine is third if not second in line with the highest amount of people killed by an X-Man: Dark Phoenix and Xavier as the Entity possibly tie in first place. Now that Sabretooth is an X-Man, he's also up there on that list...

Sabretooth certainly killed more than Wolverine. But while i think there are both characters that i like more and more adequate people to the position, i don't think Bishop leading or co-leading one X-men team (not them as a whole) would be something inadimissible. I have several problems and find it unacceptable Bishop leading in the Ultimate Universe, like is happening now, but there we're talking about a completely different context.



You also make a rather excellent point about Tessa in the HC as a very young girl. Early issues of XXM seemed to show Tessa as a traumatized child, really. Later books prove this point. So why place such a person in such a decadent enviorment? How much good could she really do? Apparently, not much.


You know, now that i think about it (and i know that's something that's probably more appropriate to a Xavier topic than this one, so any mod can feel free to move the discussion if he or she wants too), i think that the problem with Xavier is that, while he has founded and led the X-men for years, he's not a leader type, and that's why in part he makes such big mistakes.

Let me explain: while Xavier has been an authority figure most of his life, he didn't begun his, well, relationship with the rest of the mutantkind and the world as a leader, like Magneto, or even as a teacher, but as a scientist, and that's what he is first and foremost and how he sees the world. And it's a cliche, but often it's true, and in the MU that's definitively a rule and not an exception, that scientific guys are too detached from most of the world and see most people as their experiments without taking their feelings into consideration, and doing what could be the best thing if they weren't dealing with human beings, but like they are, their choices suck.

In Sage's case, he was doing what in a pratical point of view might be a good idea (have someone at the Hellfire Club spying), but from an human point of view, it's an absolute disaster, since he was putting a young girl at risk and possible traumatizing her for life. In Danger's case, he was making the X-men have the best training room on the universe, but at the cost of an intelligent form of life freedom, and driving it to insanity.

There's two characters which came to my mind while i was writing this: Tony Stark and Mr. Sinister. They are both men of science as well, and despite, or because, being Xavier's intellectual superiors, they incur in the same mistakes, and in Sinister and perhaps in IM's case, are worse than Charles even. In Stark's case, everything he did in Civil War is enough to understand what i'm saying. And Sinister is the very own definition of imoral or amoral scientist, one that in name of the bigger goal or common good (in his case, the development of mutantkind and science), is literally capable of do anything and, as long as it works at least partially (which always do), he never regrets, and is what Xavier, Stark, Reed, etc, all could become if they cross the line too much.

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[Post 430]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : Apr 27, 2007 02:03 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Firstly,im one of the few who thinks anything "James Howlett" related is not Wolverine at all.I wonder what Claremont thinks of this,or Len Wein for that matter.I thought the Weapon X storyline was rather good,but a bit more..stark on Logan`s outlook.If i was to really think about it,i would agree its not what Claremont wanted for Wolverine.As per previous posts i read here,still i have the same coments i said in the first Claremont thread.

I do remember when Gambit was introduced,he was extremly shady.Like you could not know what to expect from him,then X-Men:TAS came out..and Gambit became a hero and the love interest of Rouge.Did anyone notice that in the Days Of Future Past arc,when Bishop was sent back in time by Forge..Bishop was sent after Gambit,who was really Mystique who was ment to kill Senator Kelly?Was this a hint of the original plan for Gambit?The traitor theory?

Lastly,does anyone notice that Storm also sounded more..religious?Especially in Claremont`s original run.She would say "Goddess" and "Praise the gods of sky and air".But later on,Storm did not mention this..and i dont think any new writers would even touch this idea.Why?I thought it was a essential part of the character,and i still like the idea of going back to it.

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[Post 431]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 27, 2007 04:10 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Firstly,im one of the few who thinks anything "James Howlett" related is not Wolverine at all.

If not the only one, because that story is canon, and James Howlett is Wolverine.


I do remember when Gambit was introduced,he was extremly shady.Like you could not know what to expect from him,then X-Men:TAS came out..and Gambit became a hero and the love interest of Rouge.Did anyone notice that in the Days Of Future Past arc,when Bishop was sent back in time by Forge..Bishop was sent after Gambit,who was really Mystique who was ment to kill Senator Kelly?Was this a hint of the original plan for Gambit?The traitor theory?

Yes, that was the TAS version of the traitor-Gambit storyline. It wasn't bad, although it seemed a little random Mystique's choice to pretend she was Gambit, although in the comics, after Milligan's run, it certainly would not.



Lastly,does anyone notice that Storm also sounded more..religious?Especially in Claremont`s original run.She would say "Goddess" and "Praise the gods of sky and air".But later on,Storm did not mention this..and i dont think any new writers would even touch this idea.Why?I thought it was a essential part of the character,and i still like the idea of going back to it.

I noticed it too, and i'm not sure why it disappeared.

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[Post 432]
Author : david r
Date : Apr 27, 2007 05:02 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

When/why would Gambit ever get revealed to be a clone and not Mr. Sinister? Was he supposed to be Mr. Sinister or not? And didn't a poster here state that not only was Gambit to be Mr. Sinister, he was to be obsessed with Storm (maybe like how Eric Beale was with Dazzler)?

Gambit was a byproduct of the mutant orphan that Scott Summers met at his orphanage. First introduced in Classic X-Men stories. Both Remy and Mr. Sinister were created by the orphan (Nathan, I think.) Remy was not supposed to be Mr. Sinister.

Some have theorized that Gambit was physically patterned after Longshot. Claremont may have hinted to this in the Wolverine/Gambit Danger room fight in UXM #273. The "Big Reveal" about Gambit would have occured leading to Uncanny X-Men #300.

Forge was the only man on the Adversary's planet, so he was chosen. I don't think it's too much of a surprise that Yukio had a more positive influence on Storm than Forge ever did when Chris Claremont wrote any of them.

Haven't you read UXM #186? Lifedeath? Forge and Storm were in love before the Adversary's planet.

You also make a rather excellent point about Tessa in the HC as a very young girl. Early issues of XXM seemed to show Tessa as a traumatized child, really. Later books prove this point. So why place such a person in such a decadent enviorment? How much good could she really do? Apparently, not much.

We likely will NEVER see the reasons Charles Xavier made to send Tessa off as a spy. Why not have her join his fledgling X-Men? I've read theories by Sage enthusiasts, but I don't think we'll ever learn.

A Sage/Hellfire Club mini detailing those formative years would be welcome.

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[Post 433]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : Apr 27, 2007 12:45 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I think in a way, the whole idea that Storm loves Forge is like that nasty joke about not dating (or choosing to date) the last man on Earth. Forge was the only man on the Adversary's planet, so he was chosen. I don't think it's too much of a surprise that Yukio had a more positive influence on Storm than Forge ever did when Chris Claremont wrote any of them.

Storm against her better judgement did fall in love with Forge during Lifedeath I and was deeply in love with him when stranded on the Adversary's planet but really the relationship was rocky from the beginning yet they did persevere. Also against my better judgement and Storm's still inexplicably one I believe she still loves Forge.

No it's not too much of a surprise because I really believe they (Storm/Yukio) are and were lovers and should probably give it ago.

Lastly,does anyone notice that Storm also sounded more..religious?Especially in Claremont`s original run.She would say "Goddess" and "Praise the gods of sky and air".But later on,Storm did not mention this..and i dont think any new writers would even touch this idea.Why?I thought it was a essential part of the character,and i still like the idea of going back to it.

More than likely it doesn't fit with the new Storm 2.0 Like a lot of things that have been stripped from the character to hook her up with the Black Panther. She is being/has been urbanized to be more marketable to certain kinds of people.

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[Post 434]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 27, 2007 08:13 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

A Sage/Hellfire Club mini detailing those formative years would be welcome.
During X-treme X-men, CC mentioned he had indeed a mini in mind revealing that: X-men Year Zero IIRC. Sadly, Marvel didn't want it.

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[Post 435]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 27, 2007 08:33 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

During X-treme X-men, CC mentioned he had indeed a mini in mind revealing that: X-men Year Zero IIRC. Sadly, Marvel didn't want it.

I think Marvel is happy by just pretending the retcon never happened.

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[Post 436]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 27, 2007 08:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I think Marvel is happy by just pretending the retcon never happened.

Then I wish Marvel had stopped Claremont before that was printed....

I also don't like the retcon of Sage as Xavier's really-first-X-man, but I am kinda curious how that all came to be. And i like the Hellfire Club, so seing them again would be a big plus too.

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[Post 437]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 27, 2007 08:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Originally posted by david r:

Gambit was a byproduct of the mutant orphan that Scott Summers met at his orphanage. First introduced in Classic X-Men stories. Both Remy and Mr. Sinister were created by the orphan (Nathan, I think.) Remy was not supposed to be Mr. Sinister.
Obviously, this is different than the plot I've read to make Gambit=Mr. Sinister who was actually Nathan, an orphan who aged in reverse. Whatever was supposed to happen to this orphan, then? I've never before read any Gambit plot like the one you mention. How was Gambit going to betray the X-Men, given this idea that is a creation of Nathan's??

As for Lifedeath, I own and have read it. My point is that the whole Forge/Storm romance was doomed anyway, it was never really very stable IMO. Forge was the only human on Adversary's Earth. I think that's the real reason why Storm ever claimed to love him. Personality wise, Forge was very weak, due to his earlier guilt in Vietnam and for accidentally taking Storm's powers away. Forge didn't benefit Storm really, especially when his morally questionable actions in Vietnam ended up costing the lives of her adopted family, the X-Men as well as her own life. And it's quite obvious that for some reason, Storm has been created into a character who really has no life other than that surrounding the X-Men.

And since their battle with the Adversary led to alot of hype regarding the X-Men dying in Dallas, I'd like to see who was supposed to survive an actual confrontation with the Shadow King, since he's the Adversary (and Naze), anyway. I wonder how many fans are ready for the amount of X-Men deaths that seem inevitable for such a story.

It's an also interesting parallel as with Gambit and Forge's relationship with Storm: they both had prior knowledge of certain events that ended up betraying her, but also have affection towards her.

Originally posted by The Storm Goddess:

More than likely it doesn't fit with the new Storm 2.0 Like a lot of things that have been stripped from the character to hook her up with the Black Panther. She is being/has been urbanized to be more marketable to certain kinds of people.
I think at this point, Storm's more like "Storm 5.0", or something. It depends on who writes her, especially for an extended period of time and if their characterizations are basically the same. For instance, I don't find much difference between Joe Kelly's depiction of Storm and Chris Claremont's XXM depiction. IMO, both of those Storms were borderline psycho killers with a bezerker rage akin to Wolverine's.

Even Christopher Priest toned down alot of Storm's domineering behavior when he wrote her, but it entirely made sense because she wasn't a leader in those issues of BLACK PANTHER. You also make a good point about her character getting toned down in order to create these stories and to have her marry the Black Panther.

As an off topic aside, this is all making me wish Christopher Priest wrote the Civil War books...

More about Sage -- The Untold Story??:

The whole story with Sage really gets very disturbing once more of her past was revealed. Sage is of Welsh and Greek ancestry. In early issues of XXM, she's shown as a child (a pre-teen or early teenager) in ill-fitting clothing, getting verbally abused by Xavier in every panel they're shown in. No family members of hers are ever mentioned or shown. During Khan's invasion, Sage tersely reveals that at one point, she was sold to a harem, ie. (in this case) a state of sexual slavery. Sold by who and at what age?? Was this before she met Xavier in Hindu Kush? Sage was a child when she met Xavier, and it's also very interesting how she reacted when the injured UN worker got molested by soldiers -- perhaps making her recall the circumstances under which she got to Asia in the first place. How did Sage get to Hindu Kush all the way from Europe? IMO, it would not be a surprise if she was intended to get revealed as being kidnapped and sold to an Asian/Middle Eastern harem as a pre-teen or early teenager and later escaped or was freed.

This also plays into the stereotype of the "Yellow Peril" anti-miscegination tales, in which European women and girls get sold to "degenerate" Asian (including Middle Eastern) males for "use" in harems. The term "harem" is generally used in relation to the real and imagined marriage practices of some Asian and Middle Eastern males. This is also why I don't think it was a mistake to name the Earth invader "Khan", which is the surname of many famous Asian conquerors. And of course this "Khan" wanted to make Storm his queen and the head of his harem.

And to add to this, Charles Xavier is famous for making advances towards his teenage students Dani Moonstar and Kitty Pryde in his role as the Entity during the X-MEN VS. MICRONAUTS Miniseries. Xavier was shown as such a evil character during those XXM flashbacks, I hope it's not revealed that he somehow betrayed Sage or even made advances towards her during their later encounters leading to her harem experience. The early XXM flashbacks also don't seem to fit in the timeline shown about Sage's past.

IMO, this is another reason why Khan and Bogan and maybe even Xavier intimidated her so much -- they both made Sage recall/re-live times in her life in which she was owned and treated like property. Even Sebastian Shaw was willing to gamble her ownership, as if she was a racehorse, or something.

To Alpha man:

Regarding what you stated about Charles Xavier's leadership skills, it's possible Xavier really isn't the world's best leader. He's a man with alot of money who has a vision which doesn't necessarily have to mean he's the best leader on Earth. (Perhaps this relates to Tony Stark, too -- and IMO perhaps Mr. Priest's BLACK PANTHER "Enemy of the State 2" showed this.) Stryfe's comments in the STRYFE'S STRIKE FILES come to mind regarding how Xavier and Magneto couldn't come together based on conflicting egos, but if they did, the world would change. So as far as I'm concerned, it's all possible. Such things seemed mostly taboo to state in the 1990's.

-- DN

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[Post 438]
Author : Mr. Sinister
Date : Apr 27, 2007 09:10 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Obviously, this is different than the plot I've read to make Gambit=Mr. Sinister who was actually Nathan, an orphan who aged in reverse. Whatever was supposed to happen to this orphan, then? I've never before read any Gambit plot like the one you mention. How was Gambit going to betray the X-Men, given this idea that is a creation of Nathan's??


-- DN

Go back and read what i previously posted straight from Claremont himself. He stated that Gambit was supposed to be another aspect of the child, Nathan, from the orphanage. He was to infiltrate the X-Men but through the constant spying and surveying on the X-Men, Nathan had fallen in love with Rogue, so in turn Gambit would go about wooing her and then following CC's theme of rehabilitation, Gambit may have just joined the side of the angels through Rogue's love. Go back and read the previous posts, all this is in there. And just a correction for you, Nathan wasn't a boy that aged in reversed he was a mutant that aged about one year for every 10. And again, this is all straight from CC himself.

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[Post 439]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 27, 2007 10:04 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Then I wish Marvel had stopped Claremont before that was printed....


Me too, but that's Marvel (specially with Joe Q, although certainly not only with him), instead of stopping the bad ideas before they are printed, they just let the writer do it, and then pretend it never happened; they're certainly going to do it with Loeb's craptastic work in Wolverine, for example.

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[Post 440]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : Apr 28, 2007 12:36 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Go back and read what i previously posted straight from Claremont himself. He stated that Gambit was supposed to be another aspect of the child, Nathan, from the orphanage. He was to infiltrate the X-Men but through the constant spying and surveying on the X-Men, Nathan had fallen in love with Rogue, so in turn Gambit would go about wooing her and then following CC's theme of rehabilitation, Gambit may have just joined the side of the angels through Rogue's love. Go back and read the previous posts, all this is in there. And just a correction for you, Nathan wasn't a boy that aged in reversed he was a mutant that aged about one year for every 10. And again, this is all straight from CC himself.

Then I certainly apologize for stating incorrect information. I do recall reading what you posted. However, I also thought that the idea about Gambit=Mr. Sinister was also stated by Chris Claremont himself. And there is more than one idea about Gambit's origin. Obviously, I'm wrong about Chris Claremont's idea about Gambit's origin as well as that of Nathan. Regardless, I would still like to know what was to happen to Nathan.

-- DN

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[Post 441]
Author : Alpha man
Date : Apr 28, 2007 05:21 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have one question: since after Uncanny #300 and Xavier's death, or even before, the X-men would not rebuild the mansion anymore, where would the two teams be located? Outback, Muir Island, Madripoor, being mobile? And would them be together or apart (which is more likely due to the different ideologies)?

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[Post 442]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I have one question: since after Uncanny #300 and Xavier's death, or even before, the X-men would not rebuild the mansion anymore, where would the two teams be located? Outback, Muir Island, Madripoor, being mobile? And would them be together or apart (which is more likely due to the different ideologies)?

Whoever was going to be in Storm's group/team were going to be mobile. This team was going to go look for Destiny's Diaries, travel the world and have a space adventure.

Basically, most of the stuff CC had and had planned for XXM was going to happen right after UXM #300. It just took 10 years for him to get back to where he left off because of his time off in the 1990's.

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[Post 443]
Author : jrnewto
Date : Apr 30, 2007 12:52 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Been travelling for work, so apologies for the late replies. More on the way later.

Aaron related that Chris was making Magneto a "bad guy" again. As in the past, Mag's powers were again having detrimental effects on his physical brain and would cause him irreparable harm to his mind that would cause him to go "bad" again.

Yes, I recall your mention of this earlier. But why would Chris need to devolve him back to being a dead guy, when Morrison had done the job for him toward the end of his run on New X-Men? Why not further explain Magnus’s behaviour in Planet X as a result of housing such power, instead of redeeming him after this story and then devolving him again?

Has there ever been an issue of another comic featuring/guest starring Colleed Wing where she states if the government gave her the arm or some other agency?

No, but Dwayne McDuffie started to during his run on Deathlok.

My guess would be that Forge made the arm, but Colleen acquired it through an outside governmental agency. I think that if the government had "given" it to her she would still be working for them in some way.

It sounds like it is long past time for Forge to start his own “Armour Wars”, ala Tony Stark, over others making use of his technology.

And we all know she was modeled after you, Ann. I can't tell you how jealous I am.

You’re not down for the count yet, Luke – the title for Gateway is still available;-)

I wonder what characters Chris’d come up with as a tribute to us remaining regulars.

We can only wait with anticipation for his returns to this thread;-)

You might have something there.

And here I was thinking I was making too much out of universal ennui!

Perhaps that's JUST WHAT Claremont wanted you to think !

Or not! Remember, Chris never wasted a plot. He never planted an idea that he didn’t end up later using – Madelyne Pryor from Avengers Annual #10, for instance.

Interesting, and of course, the Living Pharaoh and Apocalypse were both tied in with ancient Egypt. Coincidence??

When you consider Apocalypse having an offspring with blonde hair, AoA’s Nemesis/Holocaust, it is not that hard to imagine Havok as another. And when you consider that Stryfe’s Strike File referred to a Holocaust of this reality was Alex intended to eventually fit that bill?

Let's go a step further and suggest that Jean Grey and Selene may have been sisters !!

I’d need more convincing!

Who knew James you were a fan of Dark Shadows?

A result of my encyclopaedic knowledge of bizarre subjects…

I already posited that suggestion here and Claremont shot that one down. No, it wasn't Vargas. Most people now think it was going to be Spiral. It was her time to shine?

Spiral was my first guess long ago on this thread, but then I read synopses for X-Men: The End, and thought he might have intended Vargas. It appears that my first guess was the right one then.

JRNEWTO: If Mr. Claremont was inspired by Laura the Phoenix from DS, I'm glad he never did what the soap opera did. After all, Roger Collins, Laura's 20th century husband, was the descendent of Jamison Collins, her late 19th century son. That means that David Collins' mother was his great or great-great grandmother.

I empathise with your sentiment entirely, Ann, but an uneasy part of me suspects Chris might have considered this through Lady Grey from the Dark Phoenix Saga flashbacks? That is, would he reveal Jean Grey as a continual reincarnation of the original possessor of the Phoenix Force, and Jean was in fact her most current incarnation? I’ve heard that something akin to this may have come to light in the proposed Marvel UK mini “Fallen” portraying the Greys from the 18th Century Hellfire Club.

Regarding X-23 as Wolverine's clone, how can a man have a female clone?? How would she be a clone, then?

Hence my suggestion that X-23 is in fact a clone of Silver Fox, what with the inference back in Wolverine #50 that Silver Fox had claws like Wolverine. I’m still convinced this is the case, considering the revelation with regard to Silver Fox’s claws during Larry Hama’s run. Recall he also wrote the story inferring cloning of Weapon X subjects.

Would the earlier scene with Fenris nearly killing Storm in Kenya also have something to do with this?

No doubt.

With all of your theories here about Wolverine, how much do you think Chris Claremont intended if he stated he never wished to reveal Wolverine's origin? Could it really be true that Mr. Claremont never intended to show this??

Despite Chris’s contention, the Marvel staff member I previously corresponded with claimed that his realisation that he was losing control of the X-titles, in a last ditch attempt to prevent Wolvie’s origin being addressed by another writer, he proposed addressing it immediately after his Dark Wolvie and Shadow King Saga, in issues #301-304. This was further confirmed by said X-office intern.

Long ago I listed how Bishop and Vargas and even Khan, especially when drawn by Salvador Larocca, shared many physical simularities, and skills as well.

Or was it just Salvador’s artistic style coming through?

It's also a telling simularity that you state Vargas was to get forced onto the X-Men, when Xavier did exactly that with Bishop.

Lucas was forced upon the team long before Chris was in the picture.

Through all the horrors the Hand no doubt would have forced Wolverine to commit, it ultimately would have been a test. Would Wolverine's Warrior soul win out, or the animal he'd become (the very thing he feared most.) Logan finally would have stood face-to-face with his innermost terrors, and win.

This would follow on directly from his experience whilst battling Horde in the Citadel of Light and Shadow.

I feel Storm is only in love with leadership of the X-Men. No man will EVER take the place of her role. It defines her and is sad, but Ororo can never know romantic love because she has devoted her existence to the X-Men. If you read Claremont's evolution of her character (from Goddess to Leader to Hardened Warrior to Xavier's equal ) you will notice the change.

Was the lure of leadership for Ororo influenced by the Shadow King knowing she would replace Charles so he could then use her to corrupt Xavier’s dream?

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[Post 444]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : Apr 30, 2007 04:18 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Storm could never be quite Xavier's equal because she's no genius. Hank is, but isn't the leader Storm is -- a combination of the two?

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[Post 445]
Author : TouchyRogue
Date : Apr 30, 2007 08:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Intellectually she may not be his equal, but she's no slouch in the smarts department. And if intelligence is all it takes to lead or fill Xaviers shoes, then there would be many characters who could be his "equal". But Storm brings a lot more to the table.

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[Post 446]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : Apr 30, 2007 03:45 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yes, I recall your mention of this earlier. But why would Chris need to devolve him back to being a dead guy, when Morrison had done the job for him toward the end of his run on New X-Men? Why not further explain Magnus’s behaviour in Planet X as a result of housing such power, instead of redeeming him after this story and then devolving him again?

There's the old saying about people not liking it when another person plays in their sandbox.

My best guess is that CC made Magneto into the 3-dimensional tragic hero he was before the 1990's so he wanted to affect Magneto his way and not Morrison's way.

Plus, Grant Morrison has already stated in an interview I read in Wizard Magazine a few years ago that his tale of Mag's madness/megalomania was done in that totally-out-of-character way on purpose. He wanted to show the comic book community that this is what happens when the fans clamored for Mags to be a "bad guy" again.

Grant's statement was something like this:

They want a bad Magneto? I'll give them bad.

Grant, like CC, is a proponent in that the world is a very grey area. It's not white and black like so many people disillusion themselves with thinking. Grant was both making a point and trying to pay homage to Claremont in his story of "Planet X."

After Grant had Mags go totally, psychotically evil the fans were no longer shouting they wanted a bad guy back to being bad (a la: Doc Doom, Sandman, Magneto, etc). Grant showed in a very intentionally exagerrated way what happens when you get what you wish for.

Or not! Remember, Chris never wasted a plot. He never planted an idea that he didn’t end up later using – Madelyne Pryor from Avengers Annual #10, for instance.

IIRC, I do believe CC has stated somewhere on this Site that the Maddie in Avengers Annual #10 was just a coincidence. It was just a name he used and then reused. Someone correct me if I'm wrong or thinking of another comic where Maddie showed up first but was just a name match and not a character match.

Hence my suggestion that X-23 is in fact a clone of Silver Fox, what with the inference back in Wolverine #50 that Silver Fox had claws like Wolverine. I’m still convinced this is the case, considering the revelation with regard to Silver Fox’s claws during Larry Hama’s run. Recall he also wrote the story inferring cloning of Weapon X subjects.

Check out Wolverine #80 for proof that X-23 is Wolvie's clone. Larry Hama wrote the story that it appears the writer(s) of X-Men: Evolution took the idea from.

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[Post 447]
Author : Marty P
Date : Apr 30, 2007 09:37 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

IIRC, I do believe CC has stated somewhere on this Site that the Maddie in Avengers Annual #10 was just a coincidence. It was just a name he used and then reused. Someone correct me if I'm wrong or thinking of another comic where Maddie showed up first but was just a name match and not a character match.
You recall correctly Luke.

The young Maddie Pryor from Avengers Annual #10 is not the same character Scott married and later became the Goblin Queen.

No relation at all.

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[Post 448]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 1, 2007 12:24 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

You recall correctly Luke.

The young Maddie Pryor from Avengers Annual #10 is not the same character Scott married and later became the Goblin Queen.

No relation at all.

Thanks, Marty! You da man!

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[Post 449]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : May 1, 2007 12:56 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Storm could never be quite Xavier's equal because she's no genius. Hank is, but isn't the leader Storm is -- a combination of the two?

Intellectually she may not be his equal, but she's no slouch in the smarts department. And if intelligence is all it takes to lead or fill Xaviers shoes, then there would be many characters who could be his "equal". But Storm brings a lot more to the table.

No Storm is not genius but she is highly intelligent and I can't help but think that CC and Xavier were trying to take her farther than just simple leader of the X-Men.

I've been think lately...Okay CC wanted to kill Xavier for good in UXM #300 then he wanted to split the team into two one lead by Cyclops the other by Storm am I correct?

Storm's team would go out searching for Destiny's Diaries while Cyclops' stayed at the mansion just like X-treme. The thing that sticks out is Storm was severely hurt during the run and in X-Men:The End her very powers crippled her. Could CC have meant Storm to take Xavier's place as the mentor of the dream while Cyclops was the action behind it? The driving force pushing it ever onward?

A situation like this would be perfect for the Shadow King-with the Master Telepath gone his protege and consequently one of the "Shadow Queens" is ripe for the picking get her then use her to spread his corruption outward.
It's sneaky and sounds like something Farouk would plan.

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[Post 450]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 1, 2007 02:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I've been think lately...Okay CC wanted to kill Xavier for good in UXM #300 then he wanted to split the team into two one lead by Cyclops the other by Storm am I correct?

Storm's team would go out searching for Destiny's Diaries while Cyclops' stayed at the mansion just like X-treme.

You're sort of right.

The only people staying at the X-Mansion would be Mr. Sinister and all the Summers bloodlines. Mr. Sinister was going to be taking over the Mansion and have all the Summers under his control.

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[Post 451]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : May 1, 2007 03:33 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re: Misty Knight:

Mercedes "Misty" Knight has a bionic arm, not Coleen Wing. She was given her bionics by Stark Enterprises, not Forge:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Knight%2C_Misty

Re. Wolverine:

IMO, Wolverine seemed to act about as sane as he'd ever really be shown in comics, near the end of Chris Claremont's run. Despite Wolverine's treatement in Australia by the Reavers and his slow recovery, he still appeared calmer, more in control and he had taken another protege (Jubilee) under his wing. So to take Wolverine from that state and to bring him to the torture of the Dark Wolverine Saga seems...unnecessary to me, especially if at the end, he's supposed to gain more enlightment or something. IMO, he had enlightenment before this story was to take place. Sadly, I think Mr. Claremont waited too long to tell Wolverine's origin, and the rest...is history.

Re. Apocalypse & Havok:

Apocalypse also considered Archangel his "son", unlike any of his other Horsemen I've ever read about. I was never certain what was intended during AoA by having Apocalypse refer to Holocaust as his son. Although Havok as Holocaust is an amazing idea. Havok would have to advance even further powerwise to get to Holocaust's level as mentioned in STRYFE'S STRIKE FILES. IMO Holocaust was one of the most mysterious and powerful characters in that book.

Re. Simularities between Bishop, Vargas and Khan:

I think it goes beyond mere surfaces, given the actual skills of these three characters. They have too many other simularities with each other. A while ago I stated if Khan and Vargas weren't even "alternate Earth" versions of each other.

Chris Claremont didn't write UXM #287 when Bishop was "forced" onto the X-Men's ranks, but the parallels are certainly there with the unseen plot to force Vargas onto the X-Men, as well.

Re. Madelyne Pryor:

Maddy Pryor is the name of a real-life singer in the band, Steeleye Span. From what I remember, that's where Chris Claremont got that name from in the first place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddy_Prior

Re. The Summers School:

Originally posted by Luke Heller:

The only people staying at the X-Mansion would be Mr. Sinister and all the Summers bloodlines. Mr. Sinister was going to be taking over the Mansion and have all the Summers under his control.So what would have became of Gambit and Nathan from the orphanage? Would Gambit play a part in breaking up the "Summers School"?

-- DrNoh

[Marty P]

Part ten

[Post 452]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 1, 2007 04:28 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. The Summers School:

So what would have became of Gambit and Nathan from the orphanage? Would Gambit play a part in breaking up the "Summers School"?

-- DrNoh

David R would know that better than me. IIRC, it's posted in the Summer's Clan Abandoned Plot.

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[Post 453]
Author : The Storm Goddess
Date : May 1, 2007 06:03 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

You're sort of right.

The only people staying at the X-Mansion would be Mr. Sinister and all the Summers bloodlines. Mr. Sinister was going to be taking over the Mansion and have all the Summers under his control.

Ah, I forgot about that. Thanks for the correction!

Most of it could hold up though, CC may have harbored thoughts of stepping down Storm from leadership to a more mentoring capacity with or without the Shadow King involved.

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[Post 454]
Author : Marty P
Date : May 1, 2007 06:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Thanks, Marty! You da man!
I know.


The only people staying at the X-Mansion would be Mr. Sinister and all the Summers bloodlines. Mr. Sinister was going to be taking over the Mansion and have all the Summers under his control.
Uhm, that was Stryfe not Sinister.

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[Post 455]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 1, 2007 08:03 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. The Summers School:

So what would have became of Gambit and Nathan from the orphanage? Would Gambit play a part in breaking up the "Summers School"?



The Summers School plot is from, or for, the 2000's, when CC's plans for Gambit and Nathan had been long abandoned.

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[Post 456]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 2, 2007 12:09 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Mercedes "Misty" Knight has a bionic arm, not Coleen Wing. She was given her bionics by Stark Enterprises, not Forge:

I meant Misty - thanks for the correction.

The Summers School plot is from, or for, the 2000's, when CC's plans for Gambit and Nathan had been long abandoned.

The original Summers Clan plot was initially something Chris was going to tackle after the Shadow King epic. Upon returning to the titles, Sinister's origin had strayed that far from what he intended, he proposed reusing the plot, but with Stryfe in Sinister's place.

With regard to proposed line-ups for X-Factor, in addition to Lorna, Tessa, Sara Grey, and Dazzler being considered as Jean’s replacements, another femme fatale initially considered for membership was Candy Southern, due to her connection to three members of the team she had previously been team-mates to whilst a member of the Defenders.

Rumour also has it that the initial villain proposed to replace Leland Owsley in X-Factor was not Apocalypse, but Ahmet Abdol. However, since Shooter had the Living Monolith graphic novel in progress, another villain had to be chosen – and so Louise decided to create Apocalypse. She still retained an Egyptian background for the character. Had the deadline not been so tight, however, I suspect she might have chosen Anath-Na-Mut.

With Chris’s revelation that Mr. Sinister cloned Gambit from the genetic makeup of Cyclops, the next logical step would be for Apocalypse to claim Remy’s body for a host, as opposed to young Nathan?

With regard to Mr. Sinister, Madelyne claimed that his Marauders were supposed to kill her, yet she fought for her life… using powers she didn’t know she possessed, and claimed Sinister didn’t know about either (cf. X-Factor #38). However, why would Sinister think this when he had been present the night Madelyne manifested the Phoenix Force? Prior to this night he had expressed disappointment that Madelyne had not manifested mutant abilities at puberty. But after this night he began to realise she possessed all Jean’s genetic potential, and once combined with Scott’s DNA, would produce exceptional offspring. This further seems inconsistent with why he would send the ill-equipped Marauders to kill the-then-host of the Phoenix Force? I am also bewildered as to why he never made any blatant attempts to go after Rachel Grey…

Did anyone notice in UXM #241 that Mr. Sinister demonstrated the same power signature as Madelyne (panel 1, page 30)? Was this Madelyne’s doing, or was this suggesting that her tormentor also possessed residue of the Phoenix Force? It would certainly bring to light some of his otherwise unexplained abilities. Was Chris’s likening him to Billy Batson from Alan Moore’s Twilight proposal part of a wider plan to create a Grey/Summers Clan akin to the Marvel Family, possessed of inheritors of the Phoenix Force? By gum, I can’t wait to read synopses for GeNext, where Chris reveals the true path he had mapped out for Scott and Maddie’s Nate.

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[Post 457]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 2, 2007 03:56 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Uhm, that was Stryfe not Sinister.

D'oh! See... you are still Da Man!

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[Post 458]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : May 3, 2007 02:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

If not the only one, because that story is canon, and James Howlett is Wolverine.

Actually,i was hoping david r,Luke Heller,dr.noh or jrnewto would have replied to the post.But thanks.

Another thought of mine,was something i thought of yesterday.Nightcrawler,when he uses his teleportation..he dissapears in the trademark "BAMF" and the stench of brimstone can be smelled.People know this..my question is this...

In X-Men:Evoultion,there is a episode where Kurt`s power of teleportation is explained in that he actually travels through a alternate dimention for a second.In that episode,it was a hellish place with monsers and such.

How his his powers explained in 616 Marvel?Is it just regular teleportation..or is there another reason for it?

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[Post 459]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 3, 2007 03:05 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In X-Men:Evoultion,there is a episode where Kurt`s power of teleportation is explained in that he actually travels through a alternate dimention for a second.In that episode,it was a hellish place with monsers and such.

During the 80's (can't recall issue off the top of my head), it was suggested that when Kurt teleports, he briefly crosses through the N'Garai dimension. This is most interesting when one considers his ability to melt into shadows as well. A Shadow King connection perhaps, what with my N'Garai theory earlier posited on this original thread.

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[Post 460]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 3, 2007 03:44 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Firstly,im one of the few who thinks anything "James Howlett" related is not Wolverine at all.

Actually,i was hoping david r,Luke Heller,dr.noh or jrnewto would have replied to the post.But thanks.

Sorry about that. I didn't know you were looking for a response.

I'm actually okay with the James Howlett/Origins story. IMHO, Paul Jenkins did a great job writing that and the art was better than top-notch.

But, I would not want to see Jenkins writing an ongoing Wolverine. I really feel he got lucky with this mini and anything else wouldn't be that good. Wolverine: The End comes immediately to mind.

While at this year's WWLA Convention I had the chance to meet and chat with Jenkins in regards to Wolverine Origins and The End. I posted that conversation in the Wolvie Thread here on this Site.

After talking with Jenkins I gained more awe for what he hoped to accomplish and what he did with Logan's character.

Plus! I'd rather have Origins anyday over the drek Hollywood would have done if Marvel didn't do Wolverine: Origins.

Another thought of mine,was something i thought of yesterday.Nightcrawler,when he uses his teleportation..he dissapears in the trademark "BAMF" and the stench of brimstone can be smelled.People know this..my question is this...

In X-Men:Evoultion,there is a episode where Kurt`s power of teleportation is explained in that he actually travels through a alternate dimention for a second.In that episode,it was a hellish place with monsers and such.

How his his powers explained in 616 Marvel?Is it just regular teleportation..or is there another reason for it?

During the 80's (can't recall issue off the top of my head), it was suggested that when Kurt teleports, he briefly crosses through the N'Garai dimension. This is most interesting when one considers his ability to melt into shadows as well. A Shadow King connection perhaps, what with my N'Garai theory earlier posited on this original thread.

I also believe it was stated in the 1980's that Kurt actually crosses through a Dark Dimension while 'porting. Did they retcon it to say it was indeed the N'Garai dimension, jrnewto?

Kurt's teleportation is an instantaneous thing. He uses the whatever-pocket-dimension to cross the distances in the 616-Marvel U. This is much like all teleporters. The known exception is Illyana Rasputin. Her 'porting powers actually took her to Limbo first and then she 'ported to wherever she wanted to go. Because time passes much slower in Limbo her time spent there while teleporting was negligent when she got to where she was going.

The only time Kurt's power allowed him to enter and stay in the dimension he utilized for 'porting was in his very first mini-series from back in the 1980's.

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[Post 461]
Author : Uber.Geek
Date : May 3, 2007 07:46 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

O.K., here's what I know about teleporters in the Marvel U. Some 'porters like Cloak, the Shroud, and the Vanisher use the Darkforce dimension to move between places, but I'm not sure all teleporters do.

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[Post 462]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 7, 2007 12:20 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And Gambit had to of course know they were killers since that's what the Marauders had in common.
Unlike the others, though, Vertigo didn’t start out as a killer.

X-23 is indeed a clone of Wolverine. Go pick up Wolverine #80 from the original on-going title when Larry Hama was writing.
I am unable to visually confirm anything these days.

the Black Womb Project. Initially I thought Sinister to be totally behind it but The Shadow King could have subtly influence various events surrounding his birth in order to insure the perfect host was to be born.
The only problem with this idea is that Mr. Sinister was shown to be under the Stranger’s influence. Funnily enough, the Stranger’s costume (colouration and symbol) and his ability to manipulate cosmic and psionic forces indicates some connection to the Phoenix effect. Despite the Elder-connection, he was originally collecting mutants and made his initial appearance in X-Men. If Mr. Sinister was working for him, it is interesting that he also had a strong interest in hosts of the Phoenix Force. But I digress…

I suspect the story later suggesting Mr. Sinister as an agent of Apocalypse who later betrayed him, was originally that Mr. Sinister had in fact been an agent of the Shadow King.

Recall that it later became apparent Apocalypse required hosts, something rather odd for a shape-shifter who had access to Celestial technology. But what other major mutant villain required host bodies – the Shadow King, of course!

I covered this earlier, in the previous thread, suggesting it extended to the Black Womb, since “X-Men: Forever” showed that Irene Adler had infiltrated the project, to supposedly pass the information on to Mystique. However, with Chris’s revelation that the Shadow King had been influencing Destiny’s visions, did she trace his influence to Almagordo, where he had manipulated Brian Xavier Kurt Marko, and Alexander Ryking to set up Project X named after the child it spawns, Charles Xavier, who merges the Astral Plane with corporeal reality, displacing the reactor with the detonation that tore the complex apart occurring harmlessly on the Astral Plane... sealing the void in the process. Horrified, he erases everyone’s memory of what occurs... including his own. The Shadow King claimed to have manipulated the development of not only Destiny, but Charles, so it could be revealed that he did this through his organisation of a project to birth a mutant powerful enough to be his ultimate host. Charles perhaps encountered him on the Astral Plane as a child at Almagordo, where Farouk planted the seed that lead Charles to eventually travel to Egypt. It is further interesting that the X-Treme X-Men title had the team using Destiny’s Diaries, influenced by the Shadow King, getting as far away from Charles as possible. This would further seem to suggest that Chris intended Charles as the Shadow King’s next host.

I like Selene in the role a bit better. As her possible connections to the Phoenix are growing on me day by day.
One of my better realisations which lead me down the path of confirming it! Thanks.

A "strange gaze" is not an indicative of "Tessa has been a spy all along" and it was really Xavier's first student.
But a “strange gaze” it was. The gaze would not have been illustrated if it wasn’t meant to suggest some association/recognition, whatever that might have been. It proves Chris had something in mind between the pair, even if it wasn’t originally the “sleeper” idea.

If Tessa had previously had a run in with Xavier, and the “look” was with regard to that, why then not jeer Charles in front of them? If she was his sleeper, however, it explains the “gaze” and the fact that she didn’t acknowledge to the other Club members her recognising their enemy.

There isn't much of explanation, and another reason why i don't buy Claremont had this planned from the start.
Or was Xavier, like the Shadow King, playing sides against the middle? Was this a suggestion that Charles was becoming the Shadow King’s ultimate host?

Well, if he did, then Tessa is the worse spy ever, because she never stopped the Hellfire Club or helped the X-men antecipate their plans, not once, ever.
However, Tessa did show further signs of being on the Shadow King’s trail… perhaps on behalf Charles. A major clue occurs at the close of Uncanny #245 when she is checking on the Club’s prisoner, Donald Pierce. Pierce had escaped and we know for a fact that he was under the Shadow King’s influence at the time.

Anyway, the retcon that Xavier put a kid to be a spy in the Hellfire Club (a place where sexuality was very used also) along with the Danger Room and X-men 1.5. team are responsible for Xavier's image as a irredeamable bastard nowdays, and i don't know if there is any redemption to him.
Alan Davis’s X-Men/Clandestine crossover had this one covered by revealing that Charles, like Bruce Banner, had multiple personalities bubbling away underneath.

However the later stories you refer to weren’t Chris’s plots, but those of other writers, so not what he had in mind. Recall in “X-Men: The End” Chris revealed that the Shi’ar technology given to Charles as a gift by Lilandra to be used, like a “trojan horse” within the mansion as part of her plan to destroy his X-Men.

When/why would Gambit ever get revealed to be a clone and not Mr. Sinister? Was he supposed to be Mr. Sinister or not?
Since young Nathan, the child in the orphanage with Cyclops, was stuck in a child’s body indefinitely, he created both Gambit and Mr. Sinister to act within the adult world.

His being revealed as a clone in “X-Men: The End” was Chris working to resolve what writers had messed up after his initial exodus. Unlike writers that came after him, he didn’t disrespect fans, but rather accepted that their stories did happen and tried to make them work (not that we’d have minded him disrespecting the other writers:-).

With Chris’s revelation that Mr. Sinister cloned Gambit from the genetic makeup of Cyclops, the next logical step would be for Apocalypse to claim Remy’s body for a host, as opposed to young Nathan?

With regard to Mr. Sinister, Madelyne claimed that his Marauders were supposed to kill her, yet she fought for her life… using powers she didn’t know she possessed, and claimed Sinister didn’t know about either (cf. X-Factor #38). However, why would Sinister think this when he had been present the night Madelyne manifested the Phoenix Force? Prior to this night he had expressed disappointment that Madelyne had not manifested mutant abilities at puberty. But after this night he began to realise she possessed all Jean’s genetic potential, and once combined with Scott’s DNA, would produce exceptional offspring. This further seems inconsistent with why he would send the ill-equipped Marauders to kill the-then-host of the Phoenix Force? I am also bewildered as to why he never made any blatant attempts to go after Rachel Grey…

Did anyone notice in UXM #241 that Mr. Sinister demonstrated the same power signature as Madelyne (panel 1, page 30)? Was this Madelyne’s doing, or was this suggesting that her tormentor also possessed residue of the Phoenix Force? It would certainly bring to light some of his otherwise unexplained abilities. Was Chris’s likening him to Billy Batson from Alan Moore’s Twilight proposal part of a wider plan to create a Grey/Summers Clan akin to the Marvel Family, possessed of inheritors of the Phoenix Force? By gum, I can’t wait to read synopses for GeNext, where Chris reveals the true path he had mapped out for Scott and Maddie’s Nate.

It also amuses yet disturbs me that people would rather see Wolverine, a true unrepentant killer, as the soul of the X-Men before they would see or accept Bishop co-lead the X-Men.
Wolverine was not an unrepentant killer, but an abused victim of the Weapon X programme, trying to tame the beast within. Chris and Frank’s mini showed him evolving into the honourable warrior.

And don’t forget that Bishop had just as much blood on his hands as Logan, what with his extermination of those mutants that fled back to our time through Fitzroy’s portal.

The ability to lead the X-Men surely has to be earned. Lucas had not been a member for anywhere near as long as Logan. Logan had more runs on the board, so to speak.

In Sage's case, he was doing what in a pratical point of view might be a good idea (have someone at the Hellfire Club spying), but from an human point of view, it's an absolute disaster, since he was putting a young girl at risk and possible traumatizing her for life.
This could be seen in a wholly different light, though. Recall his first team of X-Men were all teenagers. Charles treated them like adults, because he knew they would be the ones leading us in the future. I don’t see this as reckless, but involving the youth in determining their own future.

Bishop was sent after Gambit,who was really Mystique who was ment to kill Senator Kelly?Was this a hint of the original plan for Gambit?The traitor theory?
I heard this rumour from an ex-staffer before Bishop was even on the scene. I was never quite sure how to take it, but they claimed that at one stage Chris had set up Mystique’s execution by the Reavers on Muir Isle, and when Gambit was introduced a few months later, it was Raven in disguise, intending to infiltrate the X-Men by becoming a member so she could get Rogue back, and assassinate Xavier himself, as Destiny had advised her that Charles would be the Shadow King’s next host.

They suggest that Chris noted that Gambit and Rogue were going to become close, and that later writers mistakenly took this to mean a relationship would blossom between the two, since they didn’t know of his intention for Gambit to be Raven.

Some have theorized that Gambit was physically patterned after Longshot. Claremont may have hinted to this in the Wolverine/Gambit Danger room fight in UXM #273. The "Big Reveal" about Gambit would have occured leading to Uncanny X-Men #300.
There was certainly enough evidence, but I suspect Chris was throwing out red herrings left, right and centre. Maybe Chris hadn’t determined who he exactly intended Gambit to be at this stage, and was leaving his options open?!

I've read theories by Sage enthusiasts, but I don't think we'll ever learn.
Where have you read these, and can you direct me to them, or provide the links?

During X-treme X-men, CC mentioned he had indeed a mini in mind revealing that: X-men Year Zero IIRC.
In which he also intended to reveal the first meeting between Charles and Sebastian Shaw, and also Carmen Pryde and Logan as Charles’s hooch-mates in Vietnam. Does anyone have any clues about where these clues were leading?

Obviously, this is different than the plot I've read to make Gambit=Mr. Sinister who was actually Nathan, an orphan who aged in reverse.
Ageing in reverse was something attributed to Merlin, not Mr. Sinister. Young Nate was meant to age approximately one year for every ten – sort of like being born on the 28th of February and consequently only having a birthday every four years, but physically as opposed to metaphorically.

During Khan's invasion, Sage tersely reveals that at one point, she was sold to a harem
During the Cross-time Caper in Excalibur, Chris showed Farouk as having his own harem. Could this be why Charles chose her, despite her young age, because of her experience with the Shadow King? She would be older in mental years because of what she would be exposed to whilst in the Shadow King’s harem.

It can’t have been Farouk’s harem in Kush, since his base was in Egypt. But perhaps in his incarnation as Elias Bogan?! I think I’ve hit on something here!

I’m seeing a pattern here – Lila Cheney perhaps in Tullamore Voge’s harem, Sage in Bogan’s, Storm intended for Farouk’s, and Khan also operating a harem…

Speaking of Lila, does anyone have any theories with regard to who created the Dyson Sphere that acted as her base of operations?

Regardless, I would still like to know what was to happen to Nathan.
As previously mentioned on this thread, I suspect Chris intended to reveal him as the older brother of Scott. I have previously pointed out that the clue of his name Mr. Sinister might refer to the term “Sinister” from heraldry, which refers to the bastard, the illegitimate child. Since his origin was being tied into Scott’s, his bastard status was possibly suggesting he was the bastard child of Chris or Kate Summers.

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[Post 463]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 7, 2007 12:25 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to proposed line-ups for X-Factor, in addition to Lorna, Tessa, Sara Grey, and Dazzler being considered as Jean’s replacements, another femme fatale initially considered for membership was Candy Southern, due to her connection to three members of the team she had previously been team-mates to whilst a member of the Defenders.

Rumour also has it that the initial villain proposed to replace Leland Owsley in X-Factor was not Apocalypse, but Ahmet Abdol. However, since Shooter had the Living Monolith graphic novel in progress, another villain had to be chosen – and so Louise decided to create Apocalypse. She still retained an Egyptian background for the character. Had the deadline not been so tight, however, I suspect she might have chosen Anath-Na-Mut.

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[Post 464]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 7, 2007 12:48 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

With regard to proposed line-ups for X-Factor, in addition to Lorna, Tessa, Sara Grey, and Dazzler being considered as Jean’s replacements, another femme fatale initially considered for membership was Candy Southern, due to her connection to three members of the team she had previously been team-mates to whilst a member of the Defenders.


I never heard about Lorna, Candy or Sara Grey being Jean's replacements; would the last two be revealed to be mutants? And i wonder what would happen to Alex if Lorna was chosen, and what Scott's relationship with her or Sara would be, if they were going to be Jean's replacements in that area too, or if he would be single or married to Madelyne yet (i doubt the latter).

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[Post 465]
Author : Marty P
Date : May 7, 2007 07:03 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I never heard about Lorna, Candy or Sara Grey being Jean's replacements; would the last two be revealed to be mutants? And i wonder what would happen to Alex if Lorna was chosen, and what Scott's relationship with her or Sara would be, if they were going to be Jean's replacements in that area too, or if he would be single or married to Madelyne yet (i doubt the latter).
This is the first I hear of Lorna and Candy being part of the Original X-factor, but I do recall Sara being mentioned somewhere....

Good question about Scott and Maddie, never thought of that.

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[Post 466]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 8, 2007 12:06 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And i wonder what would happen to Alex if Lorna was chosen,
Lorna wasn't in Chris's proposal, but another author's proposal, Steve Englehart, along with Havok. Personally, I preferred the Malice plotline.

or if he would be single or married to Madelyne yet (i doubt the latter).
Scott was also excluded from this proposal.

On a different note, has anyone considered that Annie Richardson was actually the telepath/telekine, and not Jean Grey? That is, did Annie hopscotch to Jean’s body in order to avoid death? It was suggested that the young Jean became withdrawn due to being psychically bonded with Annie until she died, but was Jean’s change in personality perhaps due to Annie’s psyche superseding her own? Not credible after the Grey storyline, but it might have been an interesting reveal in the early days.

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[Post 467]
Author : Keoni
Date : May 8, 2007 01:30 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

What if Anne Richardson was intended to be the phoenix host from birth?

With Brubaker's reveal that the Shi'ar have had cloaked observation posts on earth for some time (I'm assuming that he originated that), it might be an interesting reveal if the Shi'ar knew a human was to be the next host of the phoenix and were observing Anne. Anne would be identified as the next phoenix host. They even orchestrated her death, hoping her death would move the phoenix back to the Shi'ar. And unknown to the Shi'ar the host shifted to Jean. At least that's the thought I had.

Why did the Summer's plane come under attack by the Shi'ar, when Scott and Alex were kids?

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[Post 468]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 8, 2007 02:47 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

So Destiny was correct about the Shadow King, but had the wrong Charles Xavier (see the Shadow X-Men in "New Excalibur")? Ouch!

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[Post 469]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 8, 2007 04:08 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

So Destiny was correct about the Shadow King, but had the wrong Charles Xavier (see the Shadow X-Men in "New Excalibur")? Ouch!
Can you provide some further details as to what Destiny's suggestion was, as I am unable to read issues anymore... or perhaps refer me to the specific issue in question, so I can track down a synopsis with dialogue of the issue (the URL to one on this forum would be even better).

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[Post 470]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 8, 2007 05:07 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Your post mentioned Destiny's Diaries and the plot seemed to suggest that Charles was intended to be the next host for the Shadow King. In "New Excalibur", we meet an alternate universe Xavier who was taken over by the Shadow King.

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[Post 471]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 8, 2007 06:08 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Your post mentioned Destiny's Diaries and the plot seemed to suggest that Charles was intended to be the next host for the Shadow King. In "New Excalibur", we meet an alternate universe Xavier who was taken over by the Shadow King.
Yes. But it's interesting that Chris's Cross-Time Caper showed the Shadow King in an alternate reality making plans that Chris later suggested were going to happen in Earth-616. So is Shadow Xavier foreshadowing what Chris had intended in the main timeline?

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[Post 472]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 8, 2007 07:32 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

I figure Shadow Xavier is Mr. Claremont making use of an abandoned plotline.

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[Post 473]
Author : Jonah Hex
Date : May 9, 2007 02:54 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

During the 80's (can't recall issue off the top of my head), it was suggested that when Kurt teleports, he briefly crosses through the N'Garai dimension. This is most interesting when one considers his ability to melt into shadows as well. A Shadow King connection perhaps, what with my N'Garai theory earlier posited on this original thread.

That`s another thing that you just reminded me off.I always thought Kurt`s ability to slide into shadows was a bit odd,and from what i have read..its something not really done often.I would not really go far as to say that was not one of his original powers,but something Claremont added later on..but its worth thinking about.

Plus! I'd rather have Origins anyday over the drek Hollywood would have done if Marvel didn't do Wolverine: Origins.

Good point.


Kurt's teleportation is an instantaneous thing. He uses the whatever-pocket-dimension to cross the distances in the 616-Marvel U. This is much like all teleporters. The known exception is Illyana Rasputin. Her 'porting powers actually took her to Limbo first and then she 'ported to wherever she wanted to go. Because time passes much slower in Limbo her time spent there while teleporting was negligent when she got to where she was going.

The only time Kurt's power allowed him to enter and stay in the dimension he utilized for 'porting was in his very first mini-series from back in the 1980's.

Even though we know of Belasco,what IS Limbo?Hell?Some hellish small part of Hel,Asgard?Or was it some place that Claremont created,and was so appealing other writers used it after he left Uncanny?

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[Post 474]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 9, 2007 06:00 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Even though we know of Belasco,what IS Limbo?Hell?Some hellish small part of Hel,Asgard?Or was it some place that Claremont created,and was so appealing other writers used it after he left Uncanny?

There are two Limbos: the one which is currently ruled by Belasco, and it has all the demons and stuff. It's not connected to Asgard or Hell in anyway. Other writers have used it, even Dr. Doom has ruled the place, and it's being used in New X-men now.

The other one exists outside of time, and it's ruled by Immortus, it appears often in Avengers stories.

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[Post 475]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 9, 2007 07:11 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

There's a multi-section piece on Limbo here that might answer your questions:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/atlas/...asp?fldAuto=14

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[Post 476]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : May 9, 2007 07:17 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Originally posted by jrnewto:

Wolverine was not an unrepentant killer, but an abused victim of the Weapon X programme, trying to tame the beast within. Chris and Frank’s mini showed him evolving into the honourable warrior.

And don’t forget that Bishop had just as much blood on his hands as Logan, what with his extermination of those mutants that fled back to our time through Fitzroy’s portal.

The ability to lead the X-Men surely has to be earned. Lucas had not been a member for anywhere near as long as Logan. Logan had more runs on the board, so to speak.Many X-Men have been abused. In particular, Bishop, Wolverine, Rachel, Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix, and Storm head the list in who has possibly suffered the most. As for Bishop, he was facially branded because of he was a mutant, and his childhood was spent in a mutant concentration camp. It's unknown as to how this childhood was spent, except that it wouldn't be a shock to find out that he had to fight for his life every day -- in a post WW3 era (re. XXM #14). It's interesting to see how Bishop turned out in life vs. Magneto...

At any rate, the X-Books of the 1990's ensured that Bishop would never even rise above the Earth 616 X-Men's ranks to be shown doing much of anything -- and the nixed idea to show him as the co-leader of the X-Treme X-Men possibly further ensured this. As what happened with Storm, a X-Men co-leader position is just a step away from leading the rest of the X-Men. Yet IMO, in XXM, Bishop acted like a more calmly logical character, leader and peacemaker than Storm ever did -- easily. Bishop also "earned" his leadership during his membership in the future XSE for much of his life, when he was a commander there.

The text of UXM #283, UXM #288, and UXM #302 all clearly state why Bishop acted the way he did towards the escaped criminals of his era, once he knew there was no other way to return them to his era and they had fled for any corner of the Earth they could find.

However, Wolverine is on many occasions, not above revenge killing and has a history of lashing out at his teammates, such as when he did when Nightcrawler playfully kissed Mariko Yashida in UXM #143. In earlier times, Wolverine was said to be wanted by the Canadian government because he killed a superior officer in Department H. AFAIK, during a famous trip to the Savage Land, Wolverine killed a man and wore his outfit the way a hunter might wear the skin of an animal he killed -- which was how Wolverine obtained the idea for his brown and tan uniform. Also, Wolverine has been said to be centuries old, and is among other things, a killer by trade. Not all of his former occupations have been listed/described, like that of Landau, Luckman and Lake for instance.

So IMO, Wolverine's "body count" is "naturally" higher than most other X-Men if only because he's been around for a longer period of time on Earth, killing people on occasion. And IMO, all of this implies a certain mindset about killing that Bishop certainly doesn't have -- especially if one takes into account the idea Chris Claremont started in XXM #40: that like Vargas, Bishop is a walking "Xavier's Protocol" ie. he could have killed many, if any X-Man at any time during his stay with them, but chose not to. To me, this all says something.


Nightcrawler's shadow powers:

This ability reminds me of Psylocke's Crimson Dawn powers.


To jrnewto, re. The Shadow Xavier story:

From what very little I know of this story, it seems like another continuation or take on the Shadow King plot.


Re. The skinwalker seen in XXM #12:

Has anyone wondered if this alien is somehow related to the alien symbiote that was Spider-Man's black suit? Is there even a species of these symbiotes? Their abilities are incredibly simular.


Re. Xavier as a psychologist -- a good idea?:

Earlier I proposed that Xavier should have possibly treated Storm for claustrophobia and Rogue for the potential psychological origin of her powers. I also wondered if he should have treated Sage for any mental trauma suffered while she was in a harem. However, was there ever to be any mention of the fact that in at least two cases, Xavier has had a romantic interest in the female patients he's treated such as Jean Grey and Gabrielle Haller??? How much of a professional psychologist is he?? IMO, this is the reason why Ms. Haller hid her pregancy from Xavier -- because she knew how unprofessional his behavior really was.


To Jonah Hex, re. James Howlett as Wolverine:

I wish he wasn't. I know for a fact that Chris Claremont wasn't too fond of Barry Windsor Smith's story, so I can't see how or why Mr. Claremont would like the ORIGIN story. I wish there was a way to retcon the entire ORIGIN story. I'm not sure how much I even want to publicly express my own feelings about this interpretation of Wolverine's origin, any more than what I have -- and what I stated back then certainly wasn't very popular. I really don't know any background info on the ORIGIN story. Please PM or e-mail me if you want to know any more of my views on this topic.

Originally posted by jrnewto:

With Chris’s revelation that Mr. Sinister cloned Gambit from the genetic makeup of Cyclops, the next logical step would be for Apocalypse to claim Remy’s body for a host, as opposed to young Nathan?The key word is that Gambit would have been a clone. It makes 100% sense that if Gambit is a Summers, he should be a host for Apocalypse -- except that if he was a clone/genetic extract, he would possibly have less durability and therefore make an inferior host. This is exactly what happened to Stryfe in THE ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX #4, even with the cloning tech of 2000 years in the future (which IMO is the same tech Mr. Sinister uses now). And this was certainly the canon the writers used at the time. The more appropriate idea to use Nate Grey as a host was several years too late and would have made an even better choice.

Since I don't collect X-books like I used to, I'm not sure if Gambit=Cyclops clone idea has been made into a mainstream (Earth 616) idea. I know it was used in X-MEN: THE END.

However, IMO, I think Gambit as a clone of Cyclops is an incredible step down for the character and a horrible idea -- and I know I'm not alone in this mindset. I think it's a way to punish Remy for being a cool, capable male character.

With the idea of Gambit being a clone of Nathan, what was ever supposed to happen with Nathan??


Re. An earlier Storm/Wolverine connection?:

In UXM #273, Jubilee stated that the real reason Gambit and Wolverine fought in the Danger Room was because Wolverine was jealous of the time Gambit spent with Storm. Therefore, was there ever supposed to be an earlier Storm/Wolverine connection? I can easily compare this Danger Room fight with the UXM #455 between Bishop and Wolverine, with Storm once more being the real purpose behind it. And it's even more interesting because of Bishop's unspoken/unwritten role as Gambit's future "son". There is also further interesting Freudian imagery about the Bishop vs. Wolverine fight that later and truly defined Storm's X-Men role as a "mere object" and "prize" in my mind.

Re. Sage in a harem:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

During the Cross-time Caper in Excalibur, Chris showed Farouk as having his own harem. Could this be why Charles chose her, despite her young age, because of her experience with the Shadow King? She would be older in mental years because of what she would be exposed to whilst in the Shadow King’s harem.

It can’t have been Farouk’s harem in Kush, since his base was in Egypt. But perhaps in his incarnation as Elias Bogan?! I think I’ve hit on something here!

I’m seeing a pattern here – Lila Cheney perhaps in Tullamore Voge’s harem, Sage in Bogan’s, Storm intended for Farouk’s, and Khan also operating a harem…
From what I've ever seen about Storm's relationship with Farouk, age means nothing, sadly! I never knew Farouk had a harem. And I can't even imagine what Sage must have experienced or seen in such a situation especially since Elias Bogan really=Farouk anyway.

Like I stated elsewhere: a question is, when in her life was Sage sold to a harem? If it led to her arrival at Hindu Kush, it means that she had no business being later placed in the highly sexualized Hellfire Club for any reason whatsoever.

Given Farouk's pedophile tastes (with Storm, for instance), I'm not sure if that's a story suited for most, if any readers. Lila Cheney in a harem is also an idea that sounds possible -- maybe she was both a harem member and a gladiatatrix since she is said to have been involved in "bloodsports"?

--Dr. NOH

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[Post 477]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 9, 2007 07:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

However, Wolverine is on many occasions, not above revenge killing and has a history of lashing out at his teammates, such as when he did when Nightcrawler playfully kissed Mariko Yashida in UXM #143. In earlier times, Wolverine was said to be wanted by the Canadian government because he killed a superior officer in Department H. AFAIK, during a famous trip to the Savage Land, Wolverine killed a man and wore his outfit the way a hunter might wear the skin of an animal he killed -- which was how Wolverine obtained the idea for his brown and tan uniform. Also, Wolverine has been said to be centuries old, and is among other things, a killer by trade. Not all of his former occupations have been listed/described, like that of Landau, Luckman and Lake for instance.

So IMO, Wolverine's "body count" is "naturally" higher than most other X-Men if only because he's been around for a longer period of time on Earth, killing people on occasion. And IMO, all of this implies a certain mindset about killing that Bishop certainly doesn't have -- especially if one takes into account the idea Chris Claremont started in XXM #40: that like Vargas, Bishop is a walking "Xavier's Protocol" ie. he could have killed many, if any X-Man at any time during his stay with them, but chose not to. To me, this all says something.

The thing, too, with Wolvie and his extremely high body count is that it also depends on the writers.

CC:

Claremont had Wolvie killing sometimes, but oft times Wolvie went out of his way not to kill. CC was trying to show Wolvie walking a path of redemption from his dark, bestial nature.

James C. Owsley:

When Owsley wrote the now classic Spider-Man/Wolverine one-shot he had Wolvie as a berserker killer who had basically no respect for human life. During a flashback in that comic Owsley mentions Wolvie getting into a fight while trying to rescue "Charlie" (Charlemagne) during a Cold War Op that the body count was in the hundreds. And, then, in the end of that same one-shot, Wolvie again gets into a fight with various Black Ops Agents and, again, the body count is astronomical.

Larry Hama:

Larry humanized Wolvie during his run. But, he also showed Wolvie having a lot of trouble controlling his berserker rage. Hama's run was great. I loved it just as much as CC's run on Logan's character. But, like Owsley, Wolvie had a very high death count going on.

Frank Tieri:

Frank followed up on many of Hama's plots and innovations of Logan's personality. Frank humanized Logan as Hama was doing. But, yet again, Wolvie tended to go berserk quite a lot and it was pretty much 50/50 between death and just good old fashioned maimings of his victims.

Mark Millar:

Berserker with basically no human qualities. Plain and simple. IMHO, Millar was writing his Ultimate version of Wolvie, but using 616-Wolvie to do so.

All in all, Wolvie's death count depends on the writer. If CC would have been the sole scribe of Logan then I can pretty mush state confidently that the death toll would be high, but not in the thousands.

Other writers, though, already have Wolvie's death toll combined to be well in the thousands.

That`s another thing that you just reminded me off.I always thought Kurt`s ability to slide into shadows was a bit odd,and from what i have read..its something not really done often.I would not really go far as to say that was not one of his original powers,but something Claremont added later on..but its worth thinking about.

Kurt started showing his ability to blend into shadows waaaay back in UXM #102-103. Kurt's first appearances, as we all know, were in GS XM #1 and UXM #94. That is less than 10 issues before he started manifesting this ability to blend into shadows. CC and/or Dave Cockrum may have added that power to Kurt, but it was still a long time ago and not something recently done to Kurt.

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[Post 478]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 9, 2007 08:18 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Mark Millar:
Berserker with basically no human qualities. Plain and simple. IMHO, Millar was writing his Ultimate version of Wolvie, but using 616-Wolvie to do so.



In Millar's run, Wolverine was either mind-controlled, or killed ninjas from the Hand, which were going to be ressurected anyway and would kill if he didn't killed them first.

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[Post 479]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 10, 2007 12:23 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

In Millar's run, Wolverine was either mind-controlled, or killed ninjas from the Hand, which were going to be ressurected anyway and would kill if he didn't killed them first.

True. But, Millar's other 616 work has shown a very consistent example of the 616 heroes acting very much like their counterparts in the Ultimate U.

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[Post 480]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 10, 2007 05:28 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

True. But, Millar's other 616 work has shown a very consistent example of the 616 heroes acting very much like their counterparts in the Ultimate U.

That's something happening to pretty much all writers which work on both universes, and sometimes even to those which work on only one.

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[Post 481]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 11, 2007 05:01 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

That's something happening to pretty much all writers which work on both universes, and sometimes even to those which work on only one.

Yeah, I agree. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a writer can't distinguish the heroes from two very different Universes and writes them as if they were from the Ultimate U.

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[Post 482]
Author : Congo Jack
Date : May 11, 2007 06:42 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yeah, I agree. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a writer can't distinguish the heroes from two very different Universes and writes them as if they were from the Ultimate U.

Could you name some of the writers that are partial to this? I'm just wondering as I haven't read any of the Ultimate titles since the first two arcs of Millar's X-Men.

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[Post 483]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 11, 2007 06:59 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Yeah, I agree. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a writer can't distinguish the heroes from two very different Universes and writes them as if they were from the Ultimate U.

Or the other way around: Ultimate characters becoming only copies of the 616 ones. Ult. Daredevil is the best example of that, IMO.

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[Post 484]
Author : jrnewto
Date : May 15, 2007 12:31 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The key word is that Gambit would have been a clone. It makes 100% sense that if Gambit is a Summers, he should be a host for Apocalypse -- except that if he was a clone/genetic extract, he would possibly have less durability and therefore make an inferior host.

And yet the Fabester showed us quite the opposite, with Mr. Sinister modifying his power to prevent his becoming the New Sun.

On a different note, our attention is specifically drawn to the fact that Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander have developed borderline superhuman strength in New Mutants #26, but has not been addressed since.

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[Post 485]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : May 15, 2007 10:32 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Luke Heller's Wolverine observations (was initially re. Wolverine or Bishop as X-Men leaders):

This is all very important to note and I certainly thank you for it. Scott Lobdell and even Frank Miller's portrayals should be included, too. However, as Wolverine is famous for stating: "He's the best there is at what he does, and what he does isn't pretty" -- and that's killing people, not necessarily keeping the peace between humans and mutants. And that's what Bishop's job in the XSE was. IMO, Bishop doesn't have the same amount of blood on his hands as Wolverine does (which is part of what I initially mentioned).

Out of curiosity, with "Marvel time", how long has Wolverine been an X-Man? I know that Bishop was with the XSE for at least 15 years.

Re. Gambit as a clone of Cyclops?:

Originally posted by jrnewto:

And yet the Fabester showed us quite the opposite, with Mr. Sinister modifying his power to prevent his becoming the New Sun.However with the canon used in this situation: Mr. Sinister has never been shown as being the world's premier expert on Celestial tech like Apocalypse has (with Apocalypse being shown to have studied Ship's tech for thousands of years, then emerging from it as a cyborg with Celestial parts). IMO, Mr. Sinister lived in fear of Apocalypse, his master, creating Cable who could have eventually killed/replaced Apocalypse. Also, Apocalypse is a far better geneticist than Mr. Sinister as well, with perhaps the ability to "see" a mutant's secondary mutations, too. So regardless of what Mr. Sinister could do with Gambit, Apocalypse has the power to either override or disregard it, especially since he "created" Mr. Sinister as well with the same tech Mr. Sinister uses, anyway. Apocalypse can do just about anything he wants with his power(s).

Any modifications by Mr. Sinister on Gambit's genes can't take away the fact that Remy would have still been a clone. Stryfe for instance, has Dark Phoenix level powers, and he still didn't make a good host for Apocalypse.

This is sort of related to a much earlier explanation I had for why Angel lost his metal wings, but kept his blue skin color. IMO, Warren's blue color showed that Apocalypse still "owned" him and could perhaps "revert" him back to Archangel if he wished.

Also, I think making Gambit a clone of Cyclops is like getting an "ultimate revenge" on Gambit, by making a cool character the clone of a character who was/is basically a nerd. Bishop is an X-Men fanboy nerd, which would have been such a cool idea if written better since no such X-Man existed. But Cyclops is a stereotypical loner/nerd, complete with eyeglasses, no friends, etc and was treated as such. It's actually different.

Re. If "Earth sold" Lila Chaney, who brought her?:

I think the person who "purchased" Lila Chaney's freedom was Deathbird, perhaps explaining Lila's servile behavior (acting as Deathbird's messenger and servant) in UXM #273-UXM #277.

Re. A Rogue question:

Why did Rogue stay with the X-Men even though Xavier did nothing to help her with her powers?

-- DN

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[Post 486]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 15, 2007 11:31 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

However with the canon used in this situation: Mr. Sinister has never been shown as being the world's premier expert on Celestial tech like Apocalypse has (with Apocalypse being shown to have studied Ship's tech for thousands of years, then emerging from it as a cyborg with Celestial parts). IMO, Mr. Sinister lived in fear of Apocalypse, his master, creating Cable who could have eventually killed/replaced Apocalypse. Also, Apocalypse is a far better geneticist than Mr. Sinister as well, with perhaps the ability to "see" a mutant's secondary mutations, too. So regardless of what Mr. Sinister could do with Gambit, Apocalypse has the power to either override or disregard it, especially since he "created" Mr. Sinister as well with the same tech Mr. Sinister uses, anyway. Apocalypse can do just about anything he wants with his power(s).

Sinister is by far a superior geneticist than Apocalypse, there's not even competition, and has been shown to not only be the top expert in mutant genetics, but also superior to nearly everyone in the MU on the genetics field (even Reed), except the High Evolutionary. And is hard to consider Apocalypse a geneticist at all, since all he does is use the Celestial machines which he admits to not fully understand and has never been shown to be studying genetics or mutantion in anyway. It was Sinister that told him what mutantkind was and that he was one of them, and it is very likely that he would never know if someone never told him.

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[Post 487]
Author : Marty P
Date : May 16, 2007 09:08 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

IMO, Mr. Sinister lived in fear of Apocalypse, his master, creating Cable who could have eventually killed/replaced Apocalypse.
Well, thanks to the AoA (the awesome original, not the crappy anniversary) we know that Sinister created Nate Grey, the X-man, as a secret weapon to kill Apocalypse. Seeing that Nate and Cable are as good as the same guy despite the age gap, I say that it's a given that Sinister wanted baby Nathan for the same reason; as a weapon against Apocalypse.


[b]Re. A Rogue question:

Why did Rogue stay with the X-Men even though Xavier did nothing to help her with her powers?
Because readers liked her. A lot.

Seriously; I just think she enjoyed being a hero far more then being a villian.
Simple as that.

Sinister is by far a superior geneticist than Apocalypse, there's not even competition, and has been shown to not only be the top expert in mutant genetics, but also superior to nearly everyone in the MU on the genetics field (even Reed), except the High Evolutionary. And is hard to consider Apocalypse a geneticist at all, since all he does is use the Celestial machines which he admits to not fully understand and has never been shown to be studying genetics or mutantion in anyway.
Yeah I agree here. Apocalypse is more about tech, and enhancing mutant powers with that tech.

And the High Evolutionary? I don't know....I think Sinister might even be a better geneticist then him.

It was Sinister that told him what mutantkind was and that he was one of them, and it is very likely that he would never know if someone never told him.
Well, I guess he thought of himself as a God, and there weren't that many mutants back then, so you can hardly blame his ignorance.

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[Post 488]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 16, 2007 09:36 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

And the High Evolutionary? I don't know....I think Sinister might even be a better geneticist then him.


The High Evolutionary created his own planet and his own race of beings, acting pretty much like a God, built a bomb to make the entire humanity to evolve further, and would have suceded if the Avengers hadn't stopped it from blowing up, and while Sinister's experiments on himself increased the powers given by Apocalypse a lot, Wyndham's made him so powerful that he went on his own against Thor and Warlock in the past. I would put him into Doom and Reed's level of intelligence, to be honest.


Well, I guess he thought of himself as a God, and there weren't that many mutants back then, so you can hardly blame his ignorance.

Oh, sure, but there were still one or another mutant, and Essex predicted that mankind would evolve further before any contact with one.

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[Post 489]
Author : Luke Heller
Date : May 16, 2007 09:49 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Seriously; I just think she enjoyed being a hero far more then being a villian.
Simple as that.

I agree with this. Rogue was having a blast being a good guy. Plus, her guilt over what she did to Carol Danvers was so bad that being a hero helped her assuage it.

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[Post 490]
Author : Marty P
Date : May 16, 2007 09:55 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

The High Evolutionary created his own planet and his own race of beings, acting pretty much like a God, built a bomb to make the entire humanity to evolve further, and would have suceded if the Avengers hadn't stopped it from blowing up, and while Sinister's experiments on himself increased the powers given by Apocalypse a lot, Wyndham's made him so powerful that he went on his own against Thor and Warlock in the past. I would put him into Doom and Reed's level of intelligence, to be honest.
Well, thanks to the awfull retcon, Sinister indirectly created the Morlocks (Dark Beast used Sinisters data).

But I don't know if that really shows who's the better geneticist.
They have two totally different visions of what's best for humanity.
Apples and oranges IMO.

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[Post 491]
Author : Dr. Noh
Date : May 16, 2007 10:06 pm
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Apocalypse as a geneticist?:

Before and despite AoA, Cable was/is a weapon that could be used by either Apocalypse or Sinister with the power to destroy either of them.

I think with his mindset of survival of the fittest, in his own way Apocalypse has studied genetics and evolution, certainly. I'd never state Apocalypse approaches this in the quite same way Mr. Sinister does.

I'm not sure if the original Four Horsemen were humans, AFAIK they were. IMO Apocalypse's dealings with the Riders of the Storm, Archangel, Caliban and the Four Horsemen were all examples of his dealing with genetics. Around that time in comics (1989), Apocalypse dealt more with tampering with mutant's DNA than Mr. Sinister ever did (Sinister's prime examples at that time being Madelyne Pryor and Cable). I know back then the Sinister/Apocalypse connection hadn't been made yet.

Baby Nathan's TO Virus and Wolverine as Death are perhaps other, later examples of Apocalypse's tampering with DNA. Also, I thought Apocalypse had a lab shown in the Wolverine Jungle Adventure graphic novel and it was implied he may have had something to do with Wolverine getting adamantium in the first place.

Apocalypse is more about tech than genetics at this point in time. Apocalypse is all about evolution, so although he's not Mr. Sinister, issues of genetics are important to him with mutants eventually dominating as the new species of superior beings. In Cable's era, with it's "survival of the fittest" mentality, Apocalypse and other mutants dominate and the mindset there is all about genetics with the tech being used to kill anyone seen as unfit. Apocalypse may not understand everything about Celestial technology but unlike anyone else in the MU I'm aware of, he's gotten an opportunity to study it for several millenia.

Selene and Apocalypse are the first mutants in the Marvel Universe, so I don't expect them to have known what they were. I think that in time, Apocalypse would have eventually found out about mutants and that he was one of them.

-- DN

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[Post 492]
Author : Alpha man
Date : May 17, 2007 04:57 am
Title : Re: Claremont's Abandoned Plots (II)

Re. Apocalypse as a geneticist?:

Before and despite AoA, Cable was/is a weapon that could be used by either Apocalypse or Sinister with the power to destroy either of them.

I think with his mindset of survival of the fittest, in his own way Apocalypse has studied genetics and evolution, certainly. I'd never state Apocalypse approaches this in the quite same way Mr. Sinister does.

I'm not sure if the original Four Horsemen were humans, AFAIK they were. IMO Apocalypse's dealings with the Riders of the Storm, Archangel, Caliban and the Four Horsemen were all examples of his dealing with genetics. Around that time in comics (1989), Apocalypse dealt more with tampering with mutant's DNA than Mr. Sinister ever did (Sinister's prime examples at that time being Madelyne Pryor and Cable). I know back then the Sinister/Apocalypse connection hadn't been made yet.

Baby Nathan's TO Virus and Wolverine as Death are perhaps other, later examples of Apocalypse's tampering with DNA. Also, I thought Apocalypse had a lab shown in the Wolverine Jungle Adventure graphic novel and it was implied he may have had something to do with Wolverine getting adamantium in the first place.

Apocalypse is more about tech than genetics at this point in time. Apocalypse is all about evolution, so although he's not Mr. Sinister, issues of genetics are important to him with mutants eventually dominating as the new species of superior beings. In Cable's era, with it's "survival of the fittest" mentality, Apocalypse and other mutants dominate and the mindset there is all about genetics with the tech being used to kill anyone seen as unfit. Apocalypse may not understand everything about Celestial technology but unlike anyone else in the MU I'm aware of, he's gotten an opportunity to study it for several millenia.

Selene and Apocalypse are the first mutants in the Marvel Universe, so I don't expect them to have known what they were. I think that in time, Apocalypse would have eventually found out about mutants and that he was one of them.

-- DN

He maybe know something about genetics, and mutant genetics specially, but Sinister knows everything or close enough about it. And, like i said, Apocalypse was never shown to be studying genetics in anyway, and he had no reason to do so in the past, since he just assumed he was a God or something. Also, he's essentially a warlord, so carefully studying genetics isn't for him. Sinister is a scientist above everything else.