Fantastic Four

[citizenx]

Originally Posted by gnosis

Guess I'm not the only one who remembers the last page of Wanted.

Well played.

[Radiate]

Originally Posted by AdamWarlock

I'll make it easier for you and categorize it better. Sex is not a gift to be given by one and taken by the other. The way its used is completely demeaning to Sue. The only way it makes sense for her to do that transforms their relationship into something very loveless, manipulative and twisted.

Sue did infact use it as a tool. She gave him a final lay to show him what he'd be missing if he didn't change his ways or offer some explanation to her. Healthy loving relationships aren't like that. When Sex becomes about manipulation the love is lost. Not to mention the fact that its completely out of character for Sue to do that... shes more the type to yell at him than play the dotting stereotyped 50's wife.

But, i fail to see why you think Sue gave him a "final lay to show him what he'd be missing if he didn't change"! I've got the issue right in front of me. She states:

"I also didn't want your last memory of me to be tainted with all the blazing fights we've had in recent weeks. Hence the oily-fish dinner (good brain-food), the bottle of your favorite claret (an excellent antioxidant) and making love one final time (good for the immune system)."

Now, i suppose you're focusing on the final love making. In that letter, there is no indication of Sue using sex as a tool. In fact, that letter just shows they had one last romantic night before she left! It's more of a matter of fact. They just had sex, like they used to so that at least she left on some sort of "good note". No way was it used to make Reed change his mind and no way was it a gift to Reed. It was just sex between a loving couple before one left for an indefinite time. And the sciency talk to me just read as bittersweet sarcasm!

Originally Posted by blambert40

It's cool. Never hurts to have a little back up.

But seriously, Susan isn't the skittering wife. She's the one that tells you what they think when they think. And you have to with a man like Reed for your husband who is so scatterbrained. he's the dad that forgets to pick up his kids because a football game came on. Susan has to be honest and in something like Civil War she would have tore him a new one.

The way Millar portrayed it, you'd think Susan was almost scared to tell Reed what she thought and instead used her sexuality as some means to pin him down.

That's fair enough, i agree that is what Susan is like. Sue WOULD tell Reed how it is and tore him a new one. The difference is that in Civil War we didn't actually see Sue tear him a new one. As i quoted above, in Sue's letter she says they've been having "blazing fights". That implies that Sue tears him a new one over the Registration Act many a time. But because Millar chooses to not show it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that Millar tells us that Sue and Reed have been arguing shows that Sue is still the independent and defiant character we're all accustomed too! But she left because Reed didn't change his mind. He believes in Registration that strongly. So what is Sue to do if after failing multiple times of telling him he's wrong? She joined the other side.

RADIATE!

[gnosis]

In that letter, there is no indication of Sue using sex as a tool.

True. She was saving that for when Cap sent her to enlist Namor.

And as for fights between Reed and Sue, I wasn't reading the Civil War tie-in issues of FF, but didn't they have some fights during that? Didn't Sue like rip the roof off of the Baxter Building or something?

[Clay Olsen]

Originally Posted by gnosis

And as for fights between Reed and Sue, I wasn't reading the Civil War tie-in issues of FF, but didn't they have some fights during that? Didn't Sue like rip the roof off of the Baxter Building or something?

yes she did. And according to that book thats when she went to join Cap. There wasn't any of the sex manipulation in the tie in. She left and told Reed that she was going to join Cap's team with Johnny.
There was none of that "good fantasy wife" that Millar portrayed in Civil War.

The main point Radiate... is that there was no reason or need for the Sex to be there... or even the entirety of that letter. Not to mention horribly out of character for Sue (or at least a huge step backwards in her character development).

[citizenx]

Where you see manipulation I see a woman wanting one last happy night with her husband before she goes off to fight on the opposite side of a war. I also reread the letter, where is the manipulation? She's not going around saying "Hey Reed, if you don't get your act together this is the last time you'll ever get a piece of this!" She doesn't rub it in his face and she probably knows Reed well enough to think that he wouldn't be sexually manipulated.

It's odd that just because Sue is a strong female character that she can't have moments of fragility and tenderness that might involve sex. Plus, like I said she was off to fight underground in a war where death was a possibility. It is uncommon for a soldier to make love to their spouse the night before they have to ship out?

But more to the point, I see what Sue did as her saying "Reed, I wanted to show you that I do still love you but I have to go and stand up for what I believe is the right thing." And how is that not what Sue is all about?

I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I've nothing better to do than continue the debate. WHOOOO!

[jannepie]

Originally Posted by citizenx

Where you see manipulation I see a woman wanting one last happy night with her husband before she goes off to fight on the opposite side of a war.

That's what I thought too; I never saw it as manipulation or something like that.

[William Keogh]

Waking up the thread again....

Thing: Hey! Some of us were happy sleepin', ya bum!!

[Davelocke]

so that's it for the new FF? That was dumb...in my case i don't read Black Panther cause i don't like that Storm was clubbed over the head and dragged tot hat title...however I did start reading it when they became part of the FF...IMO Marvel hoped that people like me would continue picking up BP now that their on their own again...I dunno I just feel duped...

[Michael Regan]

Originally Posted by Davelocke

so that's it for the new FF? That was dumb...in my case i don't read Black Panther cause i don't like that Storm was clubbed over the head and dragged tot hat title...however I did start reading it when they became part of the FF...IMO Marvel hoped that people like me would continue picking up BP now that their on their own again...I dunno I just feel duped...

This has happened so many times in the past 45 years I am not surprised.

[Clay Olsen]

I enjoyed the last issue... but yeah... the whole "new" FF didn't last very long... not that they said it would.

[John H]

Who was Noah Baxter and what happened to him, did they ever find him after his space station disappeared? Who was his daughter and how did she die?
And what happened to Bob Diamond who was training Johnny to fight?

[Clay Olsen]

Originally Posted by Keoni

Who was Noah Baxter and what happened to him, did they ever find him after his space station disappeared? Who was his daughter and how did she die?
And what happened to Bob Diamond who was training Johnny to fight?

Wasn't Noah Baxter the former owner of the Baxter Building? I beleive he either died or retired not that long ago... but then its been awhile...

As for the others... if you can give me issue numbers then I might be able to help you... otherwise to me they were quite forgettable characters...

[John H]

I don't remember the issue numbers. They were all characters from Carlos Pacheo's (sp?) run, Noah was one of Reed's professors. Alexandria was Noah's daughter who died, and her death was motivation for him to come out of retirement and help the FF. And Bob Diamond was the stunt man helping Johnny in his movie career. Noah is believed to be dead when his space station vanished. It takes place during the Gideon Corp and Negative Zone adventure.
I've been reading the FF on dvd.
Also, during CC and Salvador's run Wyatt Wingfoot is revealed to have a sister Wynona, and that their father is named Black Eagle. Dani Moonstar's grandfather was named Black Eagle. So are they now all related, along with Forge?

[jannepie]

Originally Posted by Keoni

And Bob Diamond was the stunt man helping Johnny in his movie career.

Bob Diamond is part of the Sons of the Tiger and to my knowledge was last seen in Pulse #9. Edit: And in the House of M, of course.

Originally Posted by Keoni

Noah is believed to be dead when his space station vanished. It takes place during the Gideon Corp and Negative Zone adventure.

I have not heard from them since.

Originally Posted by Keoni

Also, during CC and Salvador's run Wyatt Wingfoot is revealed to have a sister Wynona, and that their father is named Black Eagle. Dani Moonstar's grandfather was named Black Eagle. So are they now all related, along with Forge?

Nah. Wyatt Wingfoot is Keewazi, while Moonstar and Forge are Cheyenne. None of them are related, to my knowledge. Black Eagle must have been a popular name.

[Clay Olsen]

Originally Posted by Keoni

I don't remember the issue numbers. They were all characters from Carlos Pacheo's (sp?) run, Noah was one of Reed's professors. Alexandria was Noah's daughter who died, and her death was motivation for him to come out of retirement and help the FF. And Bob Diamond was the stunt man helping Johnny in his movie career. Noah is believed to be dead when his space station vanished. It takes place during the Gideon Corp and Negative Zone adventure.
I've been reading the FF on dvd.
Also, during CC and Salvador's run Wyatt Wingfoot is revealed to have a sister Wynona, and that their father is named Black Eagle. Dani Moonstar's grandfather was named Black Eagle. So are they now all related, along with Forge?

I remember them now...
Yeah basically what Janne said...
None of those threads were ever really followed up on.

And yeah the Keewazi aren't Cheyenne... In FF#51, Wyatt's father's name was "Big Bill Wingfoot." I suppose that could be his "American" name and Blackeagle his stereotypical "Native American" name...

[Ovid]

Is there any title that Dwayne McDuffie is on for any length of time? I'd like to read something of his that isn't just a fill-in stint.

[Clay Olsen]

Originally Posted by T. Martin

Is there any title that Dwayne McDuffie is on for any length of time? I'd like to read something of his that isn't just a fill-in stint.

I really really really really wish he wasn't leaving after this next issue.
I'm not a fan at all of the team coming in.

[JXXX]

Originally Posted by AdamWarlock

I really really really really wish he wasn't leaving after this next issue.
I'm not a fan at all of the team coming in.

Does DC have him on an exclusive contract?

[gnosis]

I'm not entirely sure how the exclusive thing works, but McDuffie is writing the upcoming Damage Control mini, so he is still doing stuff for Marvel.

I'm willing to give Millar/Hitch a chance on this. While the 616 and Ultimate teams are very different, Millar did an excellent job with the far out wacky science stuff in UFF (it's probably the strongest thing about his run) and I would imagine that he can do the same with the 616 team.

[JXXX]

Originally Posted by gnosis

I'm not entirely sure how the exclusive thing works, but McDuffie is writing the upcoming Damage Control mini, so he is still doing stuff for Marvel.

I'm willing to give Millar/Hitch a chance on this. While the 616 and Ultimate teams are very different, Millar did an excellent job with the far out wacky science stuff in UFF (it's probably the strongest thing about his run) and I would imagine that he can do the same with the 616 team.

I'm actually a big fan fo both of them. I never really read FF until Mcduffe, so i will see if the new team keeps my interest.

[Clay Olsen]

I'm just not a fan of Millar's stuff. I don't read the ultimate books so I have no idea what he did there... But his characterization of Reed and company just wasn't right in Civil War. And my opinion of Hitch is that he's way to slow to work on a monthly book period. But then the art has always been secondary to the words for me... so super-detailed pretty picutres are nice... but if it can't be done on schedule then get me someone who can.

[JXXX]

Originally Posted by AdamWarlock

I'm just not a fan of Millar's stuff. I don't read the ultimate books so I have no idea what he did there... But his characterization of Reed and company just wasn't right in Civil War. And my opinion of Hitch is that he's way to slow to work on a monthly book period. But then the art has always been secondary to the words for me... so super-detailed pretty picutres are nice... but if it can't be done on schedule then get me someone who can.

I love the story also, but what your not considering is that a truly great artist like Hitch adds depth to a story. A good artist draws what the writer ask him to do, but a great one tells a story with the art. I will agree that the lateness is annoying. I wouldn't mind him taking it down a notch in order to be more ontime.

[Clay Olsen]

Originally Posted by JXXX

I love the story also, but what your not considering is that a truly great artist like Hitch adds depth to a story. A good artist draws what the writer ask him to do, but a great one tells a story with the art. I will agree that the lateness is annoying. I wouldn't mind him taking it down a notch in order to be more ontime.

No I'm considering it... I just don't put that much stock in it. Yes Hitch's art is pretty... but there are countless other artists out there who actually can get the art done in a timely fashion.

But the art is more or less secondary to me as I said. Its nice when its done well but it I'm not buying it for the background detail of Doctor Doom's lab-robots. And I expect a monthly book to be monthly. All the big-name artists are coddeled way to much in my opinion. If they can't do it on schedule or need help to do so... get a fill in.

[JXXX]

I do agree with you to a point, but I will make an exception for a select few artist that I think are really great. However, I do expect a lot when the book comes out. Conversely, I am losing interest in Astonishing Xmen; because I don't believe it lives p to the hype. I have to go back an reread the previous issue before I can read the next one. If I don't, then I feel like I missed an issue. I suppose you probably feel that way about the Ultimates.

[citizenx]

Well if it's any consolation, Hitch is already working on his ninth issue of FF so I think he'll keep to that monthly schedule for this run. He has been on record saying he's never had more difficulty drawing as he did with Ultimates and that he's finding that FF is going much more smoothly.